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Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!




Well, this update certainly went... places.

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Oxygen Deficiency
May 19, 2008





FPzero posted:

: Sorry that this isn't really an update, but I have to do this or Fedule might ban me for forgetting.

: From the previous update:












: Well, he really only requested the little meat on the bone option here, but I decided to also see what happens if you try to agree with Akane about all her front tail theories.

: From Trial 5 Part 2:











: From Trial 5 Part 3:











: With this, my account's safety has been secured!

Cangelosi
Nov 16, 2004

"It's cute," he said to himself warily, "but it's not normal."


The solution can be easier to decipher once you remember Nagito's specialty.

And no, I'm not talking psychotic fatalism.

FPzero
Oct 20, 2008

Game Over
Return of Mido



Click here to watch this update's video!









: This one is nowhere near as bad as the previous one. It's gotta be a localization issue.



: Everything I needed to finish the puzzle lined up perfectly for me to finish it all in one quick pass.



> FIRE GRENADE







: I see...I got it...!
: ...Huh?
: The fire grenades!



: Nagito put the poison inside one of the fire grenade canisters and transported it to the warehouse!
: Wha-! He used one of the fire grenade canisters!?
: Yeah, the container with the poison in it wasn't secretly taken away by someone...
: ...instead, it was in a container that didn't need to be taken away in the first place.



: As long as he put the poison in the same container he brought to the warehouse...



: It can be hidden with the other fire grenades we used, so there's no need to dispose of the container later.



: That bastard... He totally knew we were gonna throw those fire grenades!
: Which means... Did Nagito exchange the contents of a fire grenade?
: Yeah, that has to be it.



: When I first discovered those fire grenades, I tried to study them a little bit, but...the canister was completely sealed shut by a layer of aluminum underneath the lid.
: You just hafta peel off that seal and swap the insides, right?
: Th-That is true but...there was no sign he was even at the break room...





: ...Hold on, did you say aluminum?
: Hajime...could it be...?
: If so, then there's no mistake... Nagito definitely swapped the contents of one of the fire grenades.
: Seriously...? That's impossible! Miss Sonia just said so right now!



: Sonia's words are proof...that the poison was swapped with the contents of a fire grenade.
: ...Huh?

Sonia's words contain a clue that the contents of a fire grenade were swapped with the poison.



> Present "Piece of Blue Paper"





: Take a look... We found this under Nagito's bed when we were investigating his cottage.



: ...Huh? That's just a piece of trash.
: N-No...that is not just a piece of trash...



: The seal I saw on that fire grenade matched this... It is the same aluminum.
: You found the aluminum seal under Nagito's bed?
: There's more. That's not the only thing we found in Nagito's room.



: We also found a gas mask and gloves under his bed, too.
: Did he...use those when he put the poison inside the fire grenade?
: It's a dangerous poison, after all... He took extreme caution when swapping them.
: S-So what's the issue? Nagito put the poison in the grenade canister, brought it with him, breathed it in, and died, right?
: So in the end, he still loving committed suicide! Enough already!





: Y-You're right... If the canister wasn't thrown away, then it just means that there wasn't an accomplice after all.
: See, I told you...the conclusion is still the same. Nagito committed suicide... End of story...
: ...
: I admit that there wasn't an accomplice. That was just my misunderstanding...
: Y-You are right...





: In actuality...the truth is even more horrifying.
: What did you say...?
: Hey...what're ya plannin' to say now?



: Wh-What the hell...? Do you still wanna keep going...!?
: Is this not settled? There is no denying that Nagito's death was a suicide...
: ...No it's not!
: Ch-Chiaki?
: I'm sorry...but I just realized it...
: Realized...what?



: We know Nagito used the grenade canister to store the poison... So when was it deployed in the warehouse? When did Nagito breathe in the poison?
: When I thought along those lines...that's when I realized it.
: The...horrifying truth?
: It probably...happened at the same time...

The moment the fire grenades were brought, and the moment Nagito breathed in the poison...were the same? Could that same moment be...?



> When we all threw the grenades





: Are you saying...it was when we all threw the fire grenades?
: Yeah, I think so.



: When we all threw the grenades to put out the fire in the warehouse...the poison was deployed...and it converted to poison gas and killed Nagito...
: I-If that is true...then the person who brought the poison...and spread it was...



: One of us...!
: Wh-What the heck...!?
: One of us...threw the poisoned grenade that killed Nagito?
: H-Hold on a sec! Then Nagito was...





: It would mean...he didn't kill himself.
: ...What the heck!?
: But you said so yourself! You said Nagito committed suicide!
: Th-Then...who killed Nagito?



: You mean...who's the actual killer, right?
: ...Do you know?
: ...
: Who prepared the poisoned fire grenade that killed Nagito?

...Huh?

The person who prepared the poisoned fire grenade was...?




> Nagito Komaeda



: It was Nagito, obviously... We just discussed this a few minutes ago...

: Then who set the warehouse fire that caused one of us to throw the poisoned grenade?

The person who set the warehouse fire was...?



> Nagito Komaeda



: That...was also Nagito.
: Hey, how many times are you gonna ask the same drat question!?
: The next question will be my last. Considering all the facts up till now...





: ...why did Nagito set the warehouse on fire?

The reason Nagito set the warehouse on fire...?



> To make someone throw the poison



: Don't tell me...he... He set the warehouse on fire just so we'd have to throw the fire grenades...!?
: He set the fire just so we'd put it out? Why'd he do that...?
: ...It was a trap.
: A trap...?



: Preparing the poison, creating a reason for us to throw the poison... It was all a setup by Nagito... It was all a trap to make one of us throw the poisoned grenade.
: S-Seriously...I'm asking you who threw it!





: I don't know... The person who threw it probably didn't know either.
: ...Huh?
: C-Could it be...? Was *that* Nagito's trap?



: This wasn't an intentional murder... This was a murder that Nagito forced someone to do. And for that reason...



: He put the fire grenade that he filled with poison with the other grenades...!



: Setting up a murder nobody can solve... That was Nagito's true goal!
: Wh-WH-WH-WH-... WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT THE HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELL!?
: Nagito did not commit murder... Instead, he manipulated someone else into killing him...?
: To do that, he set a trap to force someone to kill him... The poisoned grenade and the fire were traps... That's why the curtain was the fire's origin point...



: All the fire grenades we threw at the curtain shattered once they fell to the floor...



: Because of that, Nagito, who was laying face-up on the floor, was able to breathe in the dense poison. And then...







: H-H-Hold on...if that's true, you can't say the poison was the cause of death! It might be the poison's fault he let go of the sper but...the actual cause of death could be either one...
: Even so, the poison is what caused him to let go of the spear.
: That's right! Nagito's killer is the one who made him breathe the poison!
: Are you...loving serious...!?



: That...was his trap all along... Even the wounds all over his body... It was all to mess with the evidence for what actually happened. His true goal...was creating a murder that nobody can solve.
: He wanted to prove to us that there are mysteries that just can't be solved with educated guesses!



: He probably expected that his fake suicide would be found out. After all, a mystery that can be solved is destined to be solved in the end. However, he also prepared a mystery that couldn't be solved.



: As you solve mysteries and bolster your hope, a huge mystery comes along and slaps you in your faces... For those of you who believe there are no unsolvable mysteries, that is when you finally taste despair... Meaning, he used all of the prior class trial verdicts to prepare this trick.
: Not all mysteries can be solved. Puhuhu, such a devious trick he played on you! As expected of Nagito.



: Th-That's totally messed up... That's so hosed up...
: It is my fault...because I told you all about the fire grenades...
: I-I am so sorry! Please vote me as the killer!
: That's not the loving issue here!
: I-It's not Miss Sonia's fault... This is...all Nagito's doing...



: But...what should we do? How can we even figure out who the killer is...?
: It's impossible...
: I-Impossible...?
: Nagito wanted to create a scenario where we couldn't make a decision. That's why we're at an impasse...



: H-However...Monokuma also does not know who the killer is, right?
: Th-That's right! There's no way he'd be able to figure that out with just his surveillance cameras! If Monokuma doesn't know, this trial doesn't count! Isn't that right!?



: You know, I don't actually need stuff like cheap-rear end surveillance cameras or whatever... I know perfectly well what's happening on this island at all times!
: I know you used the bathroom three times yesterday, Sonia. And one of those visits seemed to take a while...
: P-Please stop! I will never become Queen!
: H-How can you...? I'm so jealou--I mean...how can you have such an awful power...!?



: Soooo of course this trial still counts! Do your very best to guess who the killer is!



: "Guess," he says... Tch... How the hell are we supposed to do that?
: Is giving up all we can do?
: No, it's too early to give up.
: Is there any way to figure out who the killer is?
: ...
: Even though it's just a hunch... It's possible that it's probably...

Music fades out.



: There's one way...I think.
: R-Really!?
: ...





: Hey, is it all right if we look at Nagito's crime one more time from the beginning? I want to make sure my hunch is correct. Hajime...please.
: ...



That's right...it doesn't mean the trial is over yet... Even though I don't know who killed Nagito... It should be clear what kind of trap he set.

Then...I have to do it. Even if it leads to despair...!




: ...I got it. Let's do this then!

FPzero
Oct 20, 2008

Game Over
Return of Mido



: On a definitely not related note, I wonder who people think the traitor might be? Is there actually still a traitor? Are they still alive? Are they already dead? Who could it possibly be......? And how does it all tie in? Or does it tie in at all yet?
: Hmm, it's hard to say...

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE IS ONLY- WAIT SHIT IS THAT A SKELETON?



I'm gonna say that the traitor is not Souda because I'm not lucky enough for that creep to get killed off.

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.


Ask a question during this update? Answer: Nagito.

So Nagito was the traitor that Nagito hated so much only Nagito didn't know it because Nagito wiped everyone's memories and thus Nagito set up a murder mystery so that every Nagito wouldn't know who the murderer of Nagito is.

Nagito.

BlazeEmblem
Jun 8, 2013

Uh oh. Do I use Ariadne thread or Goho-M?



FPzero posted:

: He probably expected that his fake suicide would be found out. After all, a mystery that can be solved is destined to be solved in the end. However, he also prepared a mystery that couldn't be solved.

Stuff like this is why Nagito is my favorite Dangan Ronpa character .

Shwqa
Feb 13, 2012



EponymousMrYar posted:

Ask a question during this update? Answer: Nagito.

So Nagito was the traitor that Nagito hated so much only Nagito didn't know it because Nagito wiped everyone's memories and thus Nagito set up a murder mystery so that every Nagito wouldn't know who the murderer of Nagito is.

Nagito.

Doubtful. Nagito believe for his luck to work than a cost must be paid. So he is betting the traitor will be the killer because he paid the price.

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



FPzero posted:

: On a definitely not related note, I wonder who people think the traitor might be? Is there actually still a traitor? Are they still alive? Are they already dead? Who could it possibly be......? And how does it all tie in? Or does it tie in at all yet?
: Hmm, it's hard to say...

Let's look at the possibilities...


1. Chiaki Nanami
The thread seemed to favour the idea that she is the traitor. She slipped into the role of the protagonist's partner after Nagito flipped his lid, and has been a reliable aid the entire time - in fact, I'm not sure if she's disagreed with Hajime even once this entire game. She's at least the only character not to have had that sword minigame against us yet.
She seems to figure out every trial, but is shy about giving the answers. She doesn't get a lot of sleep. There's a decent possibility that she is spending her time in communication with the outside, or possibly programming Monomi in some way. On the other hand, all of those could also just be the kind of person she is.

2. Nagito Komaeda
He's been everyone's antagonist since the first trial (barring Monokuma, the actual antagonist). He'd be a very natural fit as the traitor of the group - almost too easy.
My main evidence for it is just a theory - that the kids on the island were all on the Despair side of the big conflict in the outside world, and the Future Foundation captured them, wiped their memories and put them on this island as a sort of rehabilitation until Monokuma took over. If that were the case, it's hard to imagine Nagito fighting alongside them, and easy to imagine him volunteering to infiltrate them. Of course, this depends on that theory being true.
On the other hand, he was quite committed to unmasking the traitor, and even claimed to know who it is. It could have all been an act, or a roundabout way of confessing it with the killing here. He's unpredictable, so it's hard to say.

3. Hajime Hinata
The protagonist. He's had his memories wiped, which could include memories of not being part of the group originally. We know he wasn't part of the class originally, which is a supporting point. If he turns out to be the traitor, and turns out to be the killer in this crime as a result, that would make a nice parallel to case 5 of the first game, where Naegi took the punishment before being saved by Alter Ego - there might even be a similar deus ex machina floating around in the fact that Gundam's hamsters are still alive.
There's not really a lot of evidence for it, though, and if he is the traitor it's more a fact of backstory and certainly not part of his actions in the game, unless some sort of unreliable narrator contrivance turned up.

4. Byakuya Togami
An easy guess as a possibility in the early game, the fact that he's been dead for four chapters would probably disqualify him. Except... the Ultimate Impostor had attention drawn to him recently. There's no details as to who he really was, but confirming he was an impostor confirms that the real Togami did not die. Why do that, narratively? Togami being there was a good mystery hook to get us into the game, but why confirm right at the end that we didn't see the real one die, if not to bring him in? I think it's for sure that Togami is going to be involved in the remainder of the plot. Perhaps he's been hiding on the island the entire time. And if so, as we know he's one of the future-builders from the last game, he would be the traitor.

5. Someone else
None of the other characters still alive seem like likely candidates to me. They've all got their own solid gimmicks going and characters in these games tend to have exactly two dimensions. At most, it would be pure surprise - which this game isn't above doing, but it wouldn't be very satisfying for the solution to this mystery to be something with no evidence.

6. No, someone else
I mean, I guess it's possible that another character we've never heard of could come out of nowhere and turn out to be betraying them all from the shadows. I guess.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Wanna see a demonstration of my school? It's called "Eight Leaves, One Very Big Stick"!


Taco Defender

quote:

Nagito's killer is the one who made him breathe the poison!

That was Nagito. Nagito's body made him breathe in the poison gas. MYSTERY SOLVED. Exact words are important!

Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jan 23, 2018

BlazeEmblem
Jun 8, 2013

Uh oh. Do I use Ariadne thread or Goho-M?



Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

That was Nagito. Nagito's body made him breathe in the poison gas. MYSTERY SOLVED. Exact words are important!



It was so obvious.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!


Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

That was Nagito. Nagito's body made him breathe in the poison gas. MYSTERY SOLVED. Exact words are important!

I mean, it's pretty clear that any fair judge would rule that it was obviously a case of suicide.

But Monokuma is a dick and just spent the last chapter starving everyone nearly to the brink of death.

So, y'know...

C. Everett Koop
Aug 18, 2008

by Smythe


Tenebrais posted:

Let's look at the possibilities...


1. Chiaki Nanami
The thread seemed to favour the idea that she is the traitor. She slipped into the role of the protagonist's partner after Nagito flipped his lid, and has been a reliable aid the entire time - in fact, I'm not sure if she's disagreed with Hajime even once this entire game. She's at least the only character not to have had that sword minigame against us yet.
She seems to figure out every trial, but is shy about giving the answers. She doesn't get a lot of sleep. There's a decent possibility that she is spending her time in communication with the outside, or possibly programming Monomi in some way. On the other hand, all of those could also just be the kind of person she is.

2. Nagito Komaeda
He's been everyone's antagonist since the first trial (barring Monokuma, the actual antagonist). He'd be a very natural fit as the traitor of the group - almost too easy.
My main evidence for it is just a theory - that the kids on the island were all on the Despair side of the big conflict in the outside world, and the Future Foundation captured them, wiped their memories and put them on this island as a sort of rehabilitation until Monokuma took over. If that were the case, it's hard to imagine Nagito fighting alongside them, and easy to imagine him volunteering to infiltrate them. Of course, this depends on that theory being true.
On the other hand, he was quite committed to unmasking the traitor, and even claimed to know who it is. It could have all been an act, or a roundabout way of confessing it with the killing here. He's unpredictable, so it's hard to say.

3. Hajime Hinata
The protagonist. He's had his memories wiped, which could include memories of not being part of the group originally. We know he wasn't part of the class originally, which is a supporting point. If he turns out to be the traitor, and turns out to be the killer in this crime as a result, that would make a nice parallel to case 5 of the first game, where Naegi took the punishment before being saved by Alter Ego - there might even be a similar deus ex machina floating around in the fact that Gundam's hamsters are still alive.
There's not really a lot of evidence for it, though, and if he is the traitor it's more a fact of backstory and certainly not part of his actions in the game, unless some sort of unreliable narrator contrivance turned up.

4. Byakuya Togami
An easy guess as a possibility in the early game, the fact that he's been dead for four chapters would probably disqualify him. Except... the Ultimate Impostor had attention drawn to him recently. There's no details as to who he really was, but confirming he was an impostor confirms that the real Togami did not die. Why do that, narratively? Togami being there was a good mystery hook to get us into the game, but why confirm right at the end that we didn't see the real one die, if not to bring him in? I think it's for sure that Togami is going to be involved in the remainder of the plot. Perhaps he's been hiding on the island the entire time. And if so, as we know he's one of the future-builders from the last game, he would be the traitor.

5. Someone else
None of the other characters still alive seem like likely candidates to me. They've all got their own solid gimmicks going and characters in these games tend to have exactly two dimensions. At most, it would be pure surprise - which this game isn't above doing, but it wouldn't be very satisfying for the solution to this mystery to be something with no evidence.

6. No, someone else
I mean, I guess it's possible that another character we've never heard of could come out of nowhere and turn out to be betraying them all from the shadows. I guess.

So Junko did it I bet. We haven't had her crowbarred into the game yet and I'm sure it's coming before too long.

ilmucche
Mar 16, 2016

The magnificent story of Dwayt al-Shrood.



This trial is really dumb

timp
Sep 18, 2007

Everything is in my control


Lipstick Apathy

My guess is this: We're about to figure out that Nagito's ultimate motive here was to uncover the traitor (we already knew but it sounds like we're about to be reminded), so he used his Luck skill to will the poison grenade into the traitor's hand. The group will somehow realize that, and the traitor will essentially self-sacrifice since they realize they're likely to die either way. The traitor sacrificing him or herself in order to save the group is just the kind of Ultimate Hope Nagito would have wanted to inspire.

ilmucche
Mar 16, 2016

The magnificent story of Dwayt al-Shrood.



Wouldn't a hypothetical traitor be happy to let everyone die so they can get away?

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.



Clapping Larry

...uh. It's still Nagito. Remember? This was brought up back when Peko did the killing. If there's a mastermind and an accomplice, then the blame falls on the mastermind.

It may have been his own killing, but he still masterminded it.

Stephen9001
Oct 28, 2013


Glazius posted:

...uh. It's still Nagito. Remember? This was brought up back when Peko did the killing. If there's a mastermind and an accomplice, then the blame falls on the mastermind.

It may have been his own killing, but he still masterminded it.

What? No, I thought the point there was that's how Peko thought things worked, but it turns out it wasn't. Even if it was, I'm sure Monokuma would change the rules as fits for maximum despair.

I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

I know it's part of the genre, but the way everyone is all "I'm sick/bored of arguing, let's vote!" every time is so dumb.

If you get it wrong you get horribly murdered, isn't that incentive to keep going, examining things over and over from every angle, until you get it right?

I mean, sure we could argue for a few more minutes, but I wanna go sleep. I mean what's the worst that could happen? We all get fed feet first into a wood chipper while having our eyes gouged out?


EDIT: Didn't Nagito say the only way the bomb could be deactivated was by the traitor and also the whole point of him dying was to uncover the traitor?

So, doesn't it follow that whoever it was that disabled the bomb also was the person who threw the grenade? I.e. the traitor.

I mean, it makes no real world logical sense at all, but we're talking about Nagito's luck here. His luck made sure it was the traitor who disabled the bomb, his luck made sure it was the traitor who grabbed the poison grenade which killed him and created his "unsolvable" murder.

But the great irony is that his luck is also his undoing. Because now we know who it has to be.


Disclaimer: I am always wrong about everything in these games.

Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Jan 23, 2018

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



The bomb wasn't disabled, though. It was just a pile of fireworks, to which went off. I'm not sure that stunt is reasonable evidence, it was just an excuse to set up this murder.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






Obviously, the traitor is Alvin.

Stroth
Mar 31, 2007

All Problems Solved


Glazius posted:

...uh. It's still Nagito. Remember? This was brought up back when Peko did the killing. If there's a mastermind and an accomplice, then the blame falls on the mastermind.

That case would have ended very differently if this was true.

AweStriker
Oct 6, 2014



Glazius posted:

...uh. It's still Nagito. Remember? This was brought up back when Peko did the killing. If there's a mastermind and an accomplice, then the blame falls on the mastermind.

It may have been his own killing, but he still masterminded it.

No, the blame always falls on whoever took the action that caused the victim to die - which definitely isn't Nagito. It's very likely he died from the poison before the spear hit him, too.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!


Glazius posted:

...uh. It's still Nagito. Remember? This was brought up back when Peko did the killing. If there's a mastermind and an accomplice, then the blame falls on the mastermind.

Peko argued that Fuyuhiko was the mastermind and that she was the murder weapon.

Kitala
Sep 2, 2012

Not Some Opera Floozy



Hobgoblin2099 posted:

Peko argued that Fuyuhiko was the mastermind and that she was the murder weapon.

And in this case Nagito would be the mastermind and the traitor, the weapon. Peko argued that because she wanted Fuyuhiko to live since they had selected her as the murderer, which Monokuma went along with except Fuyuhiko couldnít bring himself to call her a tool.

Iím at a loss why that isnít a possible argument now other than Monokuma being fickle.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Kitala posted:

Iím at a loss why that isnít a possible argument now other than Monokuma being fickle.

Given what we seen of this Monokuma, he is definitely fickle enough not to entertain the argument a second time.

dancingbears
May 10, 2011

You're an idiot,
so start acting
like one.



Kitala posted:

And in this case Nagito would be the mastermind and the traitor, the weapon. Peko argued that because she wanted Fuyuhiko to live since they had selected her as the murderer, which Monokuma went along with except Fuyuhiko couldnít bring himself to call her a tool.

Iím at a loss why that isnít a possible argument now other than Monokuma being fickle.

Nagito set everything up, but the final, killing blow wasn't delivered by him, which sounds like an accomplice to me. And in any case, the ruling ultimately comes down to the judge, who has explicitly stated that the killer is whoever threw the poison.

Kitala
Sep 2, 2012

Not Some Opera Floozy



Robindaybird posted:

Given what we seen of this Monokuma, he is definitely fickle enough not to entertain the argument a second time.

Yea I know. I still want them to argue it rather than blindly accepting theyíre an unwitting murderer.

Kitala fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jan 23, 2018

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Wanna see a demonstration of my school? It's called "Eight Leaves, One Very Big Stick"!


Taco Defender

BlazeEmblem posted:

Stuff like this is why Nagito is my favorite Dangan Ronpa character .

He's probably on my top ten list of least favorite characters from ANYWHERE for probably the same reasons people like him. His "luck" is so bullshit that he is literally a god.


Hobgoblin2099 posted:

I mean, it's pretty clear that any fair judge would rule that it was obviously a case of suicide.

But Monokuma is a dick and just spent the last chapter starving everyone nearly to the brink of death.

So, y'know...

Close your mouth and pinch your own nose. At some point, you'll release your nose or open your mouth, and start breathing. Who made you breathe? You did!

That's why I specifically used Monobear's exact words. Is he going to call himself a liar?

So if breathing in the poison is something that rear end in a top hat did, it's his own fault for breathing.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!


Kitala posted:

Iím at a loss why that isnít a possible argument now other than Monokuma being fickle.

I mean, s/he's a psychotic kidnapper who's forcing kids to kill each other under threat of being murdered by giant robots. They're not exactly the most reasonable person.

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



dancingbears posted:

And in any case, the ruling ultimately comes down to the judge, who has explicitly stated that the killer is whoever threw the poison.

Technically, he said the killer is whoever made Nagito breathe the poison. Which carefully didn't confirm it is whoever threw it.

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE IS ONLY- WAIT SHIT IS THAT A SKELETON?



Tenebrais posted:

Technically, he said the killer is whoever made Nagito breathe the poison. Which carefully didn't confirm it is whoever threw it.

I feel like this is over-thinking one level too far. The thrower is the killer, because they introduced the poison to the situation.

C. Everett Koop
Aug 18, 2008

by Smythe


Kitala posted:

And in this case Nagito would be the mastermind and the traitor, the weapon. Peko argued that because she wanted Fuyuhiko to live since they had selected her as the murderer, which Monokuma went along with except Fuyuhiko couldnít bring himself to call her a tool.

Iím at a loss why that isnít a possible argument now other than Monokuma being fickle.

Monokuma's justification is that Peko had agency; even if she had been ordered to commit the murder she always had the ability to say no.

In this case, you've got someone unknowingly throwing the poison, which is the difference. Agency is gone because whoever threw the poison did so without the direct knowledge that what they are doing is going to kill someone. IANAL but if this somehow happened IRL and even if they could identify who threw the lethal grenade I don't see how you even get a manslaughter charge to stick, much less murder.

So the two options the game has at this point is:

-they go with the "lol you're all guilty" option or something where they can't vote, they lose the trial, and shenanigans happen that leads to the end game.
-the traitor somehow knows that one of the grenades is tampered and throws it under the guise of helping, which now adds agency back in and it's straight up murder.

Of course, this assumes that Monokuma's on the level, which wasn't the case in the chapter five trial last game where Naegi was correctly convicted by Monokuma's standards despite not committing a murder. If that's the case then all bets are off because if the rules don't matter then nothing does.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Wanna see a demonstration of my school? It's called "Eight Leaves, One Very Big Stick"!


Taco Defender

Who What Now posted:

I feel like this is over-thinking one level too far. The thrower is the killer, because they introduced the poison to the situation.

Only by Monobear's bullshit rules. In a regular court, this would be a suicide. That's why I would advocate fighting bullshit with bullshit. Monobear gave a beautiful, wonderful gift to the students: He said nothing about "the one who threw the grenade full of poison" being the killer. In fact, he specified that the one "the one who made him breathe the poison" was the killer.

There's only one person who made Nagito breathe in the poison: Nagito himself.

That wouldn't fly in a normal trial, but this bullshit Monobear trial system is built on flimsy technicalities. Live by the technicality, die by the technicality.

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE IS ONLY- WAIT SHIT IS THAT A SKELETON?



Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

Only by Monobear's bullshit rules. In a regular court, this would be a suicide.

Ok, good for you. This isn't happening in a regular court, tho, so everything after this is worthless for this LP.

Like, you can't argue that monokuma's rule are horseshit to monokuma.

Who What Now fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jan 23, 2018

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.

Man, where's the Ultimate Lawyer when you need them?

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Wanna see a demonstration of my school? It's called "Eight Leaves, One Very Big Stick"!


Taco Defender

Who What Now posted:

Ok, good for you. This isn't happening in a regular court, tho, so everything after this is worthless for this LP.

Like, you can't argue that monokuma's rule are horseshit to monokuma.

Try reading past that point, and you might learn a little thing called context. That will help you understand the thing I am actually saying, so you can reply to that instead of what you are imagining I am saying.

Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jan 23, 2018

Stroth
Mar 31, 2007

All Problems Solved


C. Everett Koop posted:

Agency is gone because whoever threw the poison did so without the direct knowledge that what they are doing is going to kill someone.

Ignorance doesn't remove agency. And Involuntary Manslaughter is still a murder charge.

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Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

it's his own fault for breathing.

StabbeysNagitoOpinions.txt

(I kid)

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