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  • Locked thread
Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Stroth posted:

It was only three lines though. The ultimate insult.

And he didn't even use a "T" or "L" piece. Jerk.

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Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



Narsham posted:

And he didn't even use a "T" or "L" piece. Jerk.

Half of them weren't even valid tetris pieces!

Zoe
Jan 19, 2007


Hair Elf

MonsterEnvy posted:

And yes Nagito's plan failed.

You know, what with that execution and all I completely forgot about this. The kids are seeing it as Nagito as this sick twisted lunatic (and well...they're not wrong...) but what do you want to bet he wound up at the same theory that a lot of us in the thread have, that the Future Foundation are actually the good guys. Monomi and Monkuma being opposed at the very least is NOT hard to figure out, and if the traitor was working with Monomi...

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!


MonsterEnvy posted:

And yes Nagito's plan failed.

If he's dead, does the bad luck leads to even better good luck thing still apply?

Blademaster_Aio
Jan 22, 2017



Hobgoblin2099 posted:

If he's dead, does the bad luck leads to even better good luck thing still apply?

I'm pretty sure he's used up all his luck.

Also I hate him.

Chiaki was the best.

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

Nagito was a psychopath to the end and the worst thing is this is the second time he has gotten a decent character killed.

Zoe
Jan 19, 2007


Hair Elf

Blademaster_Aio posted:

I'm pretty sure he's used up all his luck.

Also I hate him.

Chiaki was the best.

But he was trying to save her. She just didn't keep her mouth shut and let him.

TheDavies
Mar 27, 2010


Zoe posted:

But he was trying to save her. She just didn't keep her mouth shut and let him.

Yes, it's almost like no person with even a speck of human worth would have consented to be saved like that. No, wait ... it's exactly like that.

mateo360
Mar 20, 2012

TOO MANY PEOPLE MERLOCK!
ONLY ONE DIJON!


This case is what really makes me hate this game in the series. As Stabby and several other people were talking about before, Nagito was the mastermind. He filled grenade, he set up the spear, He planned everything. Chiaki was not the mastermind in the case and it is bullshit that she had to take the punishment. The fact that Monokuma breaks his own rules make me hate everything past this point in the game because then there is now nothing that guarantees that Monokuma will play fairly.

Zoe
Jan 19, 2007


Hair Elf

TheDavies posted:

Yes, it's almost like no person with even a speck of human worth would have consented to be saved like that. No, wait ... it's exactly like that.

In Chiaki's case, sure. But just don't think too hard about why there are so many less characters now than there were when the game started.

FPzero
Oct 20, 2008

Game Over
Return of Mido



mateo360 posted:

This case is what really makes me hate this game in the series. As Stabby and several other people were talking about before, Nagito was the mastermind. He filled grenade, he set up the spear, He planned everything. Chiaki was not the mastermind in the case and it is bullshit that she had to take the punishment. The fact that Monokuma breaks his own rules make me hate everything past this point in the game because then there is now nothing that guarantees that Monokuma will play fairly.

I've obviously stayed quiet through the whole trial about this sentiment but now that Chiaki's dead I can say a few things. Why do you guys keep saying Monokuma is breaking his own rules? From the beginning of the game, it's always been clear that the person who kills another will be executed, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it. You can even go back to the first game and look at those examples at least up to Chapter 4 and see that it's consistent there too. And just because I was curious if I'd forgotten something in the actual Game Rules, I went and dug them all up.









Nowhere in the rules or any previous judgments has it said that the mastermind of a murder will be executed, it's always the blackened that will be executed, regardless of intent. I'd like to hear where you guys think Monokuma is breaking his rules.

Actually speaking of intent vs murder, let's look at Trial 1's case again because it heavily involved our boy Nagito too. In Trial 1, Nagito was the mastermind behind 90% of the murder setup. He suggested the location, got lucky with cleaning duty, hid the dagger, set the A/C units, turned on the irons, overloaded the circuit breaker, caused the blackout, positioned himself near the lamp cord and was basically ready to go. But you might say that Teruteru had the intent to kill too since he was obviously waiting under the floor and had set things up with the fire doors, stove, and skewer. But consider that Teruteru probably wouldn't have been a murderer if he hadn't confronted Nagito about how he was being weird. It was then that Nagito outright told him he was going to commit murder/"start the killing" and essentially nudged Teruteru in the direction of murder by also telling him about the underground crawlspace and his plans. Would you, in this case, also say Nagito was the mastermind behind Trial 1 even if he didn't actually commit the murder? If so, that's essentially what happened here too. Nagito set up the whole murder, but someone else carried out the final blow.

Does it still suck? Absolutely. Chiaki was probably my favorite female character in my first playthrough and I'd done all her free time events. I figured she was in the clear when Chapter 5's murder occurred and that she was coming with me to endgame. It was a huge gut punch to go through this trial and lose one of my favorite characters to this situation. But that's how things go in this series and this trial and the horrifying realizations I was having as I slowly unraveled Nagito's insane plan make this trial my favorite in the trilogy. Some of the ones in V3 come close, but this is the pinnacle in my mind.

tl;dr: I don't think there are any major rules being broken here by Monokuma. You're all welcome to explain to me otherwise though.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Wanna see a demonstration of my school? It's called "Eight Leaves, One Very Big Stick"!


Taco Defender

I never found Chiaki interesting at all. She just seemed like Kirigiri with narcolepsy and a gaming hobby, and was otherwise completely dull. I guess that was perhaps the intention, to not draw attention. Since I guess she's just a program in this apparent VR simulation and isn't even going to say anything interesting anyway, meh.

mateo360 posted:

This case is what really makes me hate this game in the series. As Stabby and several other people were talking about before, Nagito was the mastermind. He filled grenade, he set up the spear, He planned everything. Chiaki was not the mastermind in the case and it is bullshit that she had to take the punishment. The fact that Monokuma breaks his own rules make me hate everything past this point in the game because then there is now nothing that guarantees that Monokuma will play fairly.

I've been staying quiet the past few days, but I'd just like to make a small correction. I agree that the rules Monobear set up where any death is a murder, even suicide are kinda bullshit rules. But those rules have been consistent and Monobear did not break them.

FPzero posted:

Would you, in this case, also say Nagito was the mastermind behind Trial 1 even if he didn't actually commit the murder? If so, that's essentially what happened here too. Nagito set up the whole murder, but someone else carried out the final blow.

The difference between Teruteru and Chiaki is that Teruteru had the intent to kill. Chiaki did not.

My argument to blame Nagito for his own death by breathing was a weasel, bullshit argument, but since Monobear's rules for what is considered a murder are also bullshit, I would have liked to see the students at least make an attempt to try and use technical bullshit to their advantage. In this case, Monobear's exact words.

Bloody Emissary
Mar 30, 2014

Powawa~n


Furthermore, Monokuma has always broken his own rules when it suits him; please recall Naegi's unfair execution in the other Chapter 5.

Getting rid of the traitor is in line with his own interests, so of course he's letting Nagito's interpretation of the rules pass as-is.

Capfalcon
Apr 6, 2012

No Boots on the Ground,
Puny Mortals!



Out of curiosity, I went back and re-read the "tool" discussion after the second trial, and it seems pretty clear like Monokuma's just yanking Peko's chain instead of seriously considering that she has a point. He's doesn't ever talk about masterminds or anything. Honestly, his entire contribution to the conversation boils down to: "That's an interesting idea. What does everyone else have to say?"

And then he gets his despair when Peko's final gambit falls through.

mateo360
Mar 20, 2012

TOO MANY PEOPLE MERLOCK!
ONLY ONE DIJON!


FPzero posted:

Why do you guys keep saying Monokuma is breaking his own rules? From the beginning of the game, it's always been clear that the person who kills another will be executed, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it. You can even go back to the first game and look at those examples at least up to Chapter 4 and see that it's consistent there too. And just because I was curious if I'd forgotten something in the actual Game Rules, I went and dug them all up.

Right in Chapter 3 Deadly Life Part 2

FPzero posted:

: All right, fine, fine... That's right...there's always one killer at any given time... Even if they had an accomplice, I'd have you figure out who the mastermind is.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


mateo360 posted:

Right in Chapter 3 Deadly Life Part 2

That sounds less like Monokuma making it a hard and fast rule that the mastermind is always the right answer, and more like Monokuma just trying to make sure no one can gently caress up the whole system with multiple killers. If someone gets an accomplice, the mastermind would be the one you have to vote for in that particular scenario.

Solitair
Feb 18, 2014

This statement is a lie!


That term makes me think of whoever's pulling Monokuma's strings, not a murderer in an individual case.

Solitair fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jan 28, 2018

mateo360
Mar 20, 2012

TOO MANY PEOPLE MERLOCK!
ONLY ONE DIJON!


Bloody Emissary posted:

Furthermore, Monokuma has always broken his own rules when it suits him; please recall Naegi's unfair execution in the other Chapter 5.

One of the major differences thought is that in that case, the evidence was set up to point to ether Naegi or Kyouko where as in this case in the very last part of the trial we had three questions in a row about who set all this up where the answer to all three was Nagito and at no point was any evidence about the actual murder except for the fire grenade ever even linked to Chiaki.

Edit: there is a little more to Case 5 that makes it better then this but might be considered spoilers still.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






mateo360 posted:

Right in Chapter 3 Deadly Life Part 2

Sounds like he wants both people revealed, mastermind and accomplice.

MysticalMachineGun
Apr 5, 2005


In a real life court of law this would be bumped down to manslaughter as Chiaki had no intent to kill and her throwing the deadly grenade was purely an accident.

She'd probably still serve time though, so

Thesaya
May 17, 2011

I am a Plant.


MysticalMachineGun posted:

In a real life court of law this would be bumped down to manslaughter as Chiaki had no intent to kill and her throwing the deadly grenade was purely an accident.

She'd probably still serve time though, so

I would say it would be thrown out due to lack of evidence. Most of these cases would be hard to prove in a real court.

blackmongoose
Mar 31, 2011

DARK INFERNO ROOK!


MysticalMachineGun posted:

In a real life court of law this would be bumped down to manslaughter as Chiaki had no intent to kill and her throwing the deadly grenade was purely an accident.

She'd probably still serve time though, so

In a real life (American) court of law the judge would throw the case out after the prosecution phase because of the obvious lack of mens rea. Also, manslaughter pretty much always requires at least negligence, and there is no way that failing to realize that the contents of a fire grenade had been replaced by poison would be seen as negligence by pretty much anyone.

As to Monokuma breaking rules, he's been breaking Rule 4 pretty constantly, most obviously by knocking them out before putting them in the funhouse. Also you could argue that the Monobeasts break Rule 11. I do agree that the verdict technically doesn't break any rules, though the logic doesn't hold up with case 4, where by the logic of this case it should have been Mechamaru as the blackened since the reason he fell and died was that he struggled after being woken up by his alarm while tied up at the top of the elevator.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

Excuse me, I'd like to
speak to the moderator




Monokuma is an rear end in a top hat, why is everyone under the impression that he's going to play fair?

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



So are we now at a smaller cast than the last game ended?

Zoe
Jan 19, 2007


Hair Elf

Seems like I recall him flat out saying that even a death caused by accident counts as a murder by his standards. Although I think wanting to get rid of the Future Foundation's agent is explanation enough. Probably the only reason he's held back from getting rid of Monomi all this time is in the hopes that some connection could be drawn between her in and the 'traitor' to give them away.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


Welp, not everyone is going to find satisfaction with this kind of scenario. But to me, the issue of how fair Chiaki's death is never even enters the equation. Of course everything's unfair, from both Monokuma and from Komaeda's ridiculous ability. The central drama of this case is mainly the growing horror and realization of just how far Komaeda's gone to gently caress with everyone, and what the fallout's going to be, while still leaving you with the burning question of "but WHY?!"

With even the characters in-game pointing how how each chapter has some vague similarities to its DR1 counterpart, this one fully matches DR1's chapter 5 in making you go "WHAT THE gently caress IS GOING ON". And the other similarities to DR1's Chapter 5 help to toy with your emotions even further. In DR1 it looked like Naegi might lose Kirigiri, who was his main partner and support by then. Here, you probably can't help but wonder if something similar will happen again with Chiaki... there'll be some way to save her, an Alter Ego moment where the execution is stopped. ...but then, no.

This is my favourite part in all of Dangan Ronpa. (...haven't played V3 yet though)

mateo360
Mar 20, 2012

TOO MANY PEOPLE MERLOCK!
ONLY ONE DIJON!


Rarity posted:

Monokuma is an rear end in a top hat, why is everyone under the impression that he's going to play fair?

It's actually the whole reason the DR1 cast get's a retrial/the final trial.

DR1 Chapter 6 Deadly Life Part 2 posted:

: Now, here's the absolute truth. Makoto didn't kill Mukuro. You did.
: ...
: So executing Makoto for it would surely be a violation of your rules, which I know you love so much. If the blackened is exposed, they alone will be executed. That's what you told us, right?

*skipping down the dialog*

: If you were to execute Makoto now, everyone out there watching this would be extremely displeased.

*skip a little more*


: If you want to earn our despair "fair and square", then I suggest you take my advice.

: ...So? What is this "advice" of yours?
: To do Mukuro's trial over again. Only this time, you follow the school regulations to ensure a fair trial.

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



Although by that point it was established Monokuma was running a twisted reality show to broadcast their despair to the world. There's been no indication of that here, at least so far. Monokuma's motives and indeed identity remain a mystery. The only thing I can be reasonably sure of is that whoever is behind Monokuma wasn't personally familiar with the class (based on Gundham's execution).

Stroth
Mar 31, 2007

All Problems Solved


Tenebrais posted:

Although by that point it was established Monokuma was running a twisted reality show to broadcast their despair to the world. There's been no indication of that here, at least so far. Monokuma's motives and indeed identity remain a mystery. The only thing I can be reasonably sure of is that whoever is behind Monokuma wasn't personally familiar with the class (based on Gundham's execution).

What? What about that gives you that idea?

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!


Tenebrais posted:

So are we now at a smaller cast than the last game ended?

By one person, yes. No suicide case.

Shwqa
Feb 13, 2012



Last game Monokuma was a even bigger rule breaker. Hell there is a case with two possible endings because that bear cheats so much. The case was bullshit but saying you killed him by throwing the poisonous gas isn't that weird.

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



Stroth posted:

What? What about that gives you that idea?

Monokuma builds his executions around making them as excruciating as possible for his victims, often in an ironic way. And for Gundham, it was perfectly built... for his persona. He was carried off to heaven by fluffy kitten angels, something that for a self-proclaimed demon lord of night or whatever would be utterly humiliating.
But it wasn't, because that's not who Gundham really was. Under all the roleplay he was a gentle and caring person. Monokuma completely ignored his hamsters, and Gundham got to die smiling because he knew they were safe.

It doesn't take much interaction with him to figure out that's what he's really about, but if you haven't had that you wouldn't expect it. That's my basis for thinking whoever is behind Monokuma didn't know him - and, by extension, wasn't involved with their class.

eating only apples
Dec 12, 2009

Shall we dance?



My theories always suck but here's one: Chiaki's dad and older brother coming up out of nowhere. Chiaki's "not able" to do a lot of things. Sapient robots totally exist, or this might be in a simulation or something? She's talking about Chihiro and Alter Ego. I mean, she has the same kind of ribbon bow thing that Chihiro had. She's an AI.

Watertight.

Blademaster_Aio
Jan 22, 2017



Zoe posted:

But he was trying to save her. She just didn't keep her mouth shut and let him.

And he was trying to kill us all. He could have just not done anything, you know.

I knew Nagito was dangerous and insane, but this case really drove that point home.

Zoe
Jan 19, 2007


Hair Elf

I still don't feel like we ever got a satisfying explanation of Nagito's sudden attitude change towards everyone. Combined with having no real explanation of why he'd suddenly try to kill everyone when he's been one of the keys to solving these cases all along and all gung ho about shining hope uniting to overcome despair swirly eyes etc. it makes me wonder if there's still going to be another shoe to drop regarding what he actually knew of them all before their memories were taken.

Kangra
May 7, 2012



eating only apples posted:

My theories always suck but here's one: Chiaki's dad and older brother coming up out of nowhere. Chiaki's "not able" to do a lot of things. Sapient robots totally exist, or this might be in a simulation or something? She's talking about Chihiro and Alter Ego. I mean, she has the same kind of ribbon bow thing that Chihiro had. She's an AI.

Watertight.

Yeah, if this isn't VR I think she's probably a construct/android. Or maybe a [VLR spoiler] GAULEM cause she's incapable of betraying.


Bifauxnen posted:

With even the characters in-game pointing how how each chapter has some vague similarities to its DR1 counterpart, this one fully matches DR1's chapter 5 in making you go "WHAT THE gently caress IS GOING ON". And the other similarities to DR1's Chapter 5 help to toy with your emotions even further. In DR1 it looked like Naegi might lose Kirigiri, who was his main partner and support by then. Here, you probably can't help but wonder if something similar will happen again with Chiaki... there'll be some way to save her, an Alter Ego moment where the execution is stopped. ...but then, no.

The problem for me is that this isn't really having any emotional impact. We've been waiting all along for the game to get to this point, so the mere fact of things going crazy is not any sort of surprise the second time around. This is also happening on top of the implication that Chiaki is, in fact, capable of returning more-or-less intact if she is an artificial entity (not in the form of Mechamaru, but in the way Monobear/Monomi[?] have replacements). I'm personally less invested in these characters in general because they remain completely clueless as to what's going on and the most likable characters keep getting killed off.

* In the story, that's sensible, but it's unsatisfying as the narrative of sequel.

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Somebody call for an ant?



Yeah, it feels like things are getting crazy and the big reveal is near, but the complete lack of any effort by the cast to figure out how to escape alive kind of kills it. Chiaki didnt remember stopping our hero from entering the final dead room and he didnt even bat an eye, let alone the whole cast working to try and escape alive.

It's literally been 5 chapters of pointlessly wandering from deathtrap to deathtrap.

BlazeEmblem
Jun 8, 2013

Uh oh. Do I use Ariadne thread or Goho-M?



FoolyCharged posted:

Yeah, it feels like things are getting crazy and the big reveal is near, but the complete lack of any effort by the cast to figure out how to escape alive kind of kills it. Chiaki didnt remember stopping our hero from entering the final dead room and he didnt even bat an eye, let alone the whole cast working to try and escape alive.

It's literally been 5 chapters of pointlessly wandering from deathtrap to deathtrap.

To be fair, the one time they decided that they weren't going to bother to go into an obvious trap by not investigating the forth island, Monokuma tricked them with promises of stuff they could use, only to trap them in an even worse deathtrap.

And besides, this time Nagito was the one behind it all, with Monokuma not even bothering with a motive.

FPzero
Oct 20, 2008

Game Over
Return of Mido







: ...

Even until the very end, I couldn't look away from Chiaki's final moments...

Without realizing it...I had fallen to my knees. A feeling a powerlessness spread throughout my body. It's over... It just had to end...

Before I could ask what I needed to ask...

Before I could say what I needed to say...

Chiaki vanished before my eyes. And I couldn't even tell her, "Thank you"...

If I had said that, would she have been comforted a little...? As she was executed as the traitor...would she have been comforted a little...?

I don't know...

My chest...just hurt.




: Good gracious, that was such a big surprise! As for Chiaki, she regularly took on the role of pointman during the class trials, as did Nagito too...
: And not only was she the traitor, she was Nagito's killer too!
: Oh well, don't worry about it! There won't be any more situations where you'll need to rely on them!



: Wait, does that mean...?
: Now that the annoying rabbit is gone as well... All of the obstacles that have been keeping us stuck on this island are completely gone!
: A-Are you serious!? We can really leave this island!?



: Yuuuuuuup! Congratulations! With this, I shall announce the end of the killing school trip! For you five who've survived up until now, I shall give you the right to graduate!
: ...Thank you for all your hard work!
: ...
: Are...are you really okay with that?



: ...Hm? What do you mean?
: There are still two days left... If you were acting like your usual self, you would be setting things up so another killing happens right away.
: Y-You're right...
: Stop it! What are you saying!? What if Mr. Monokuma changes his mind!?
: ...
: Also...you said "you five" like you were emphasizing that part... Does the number of people remaining matter more than the remaining time?
: That's why...you're saying it's the end already even though there are still two days left, right?



: It matters...that there are five people left?
: Are you plannin' to make a volleyball team!?
: YOU NEED SIX PEOPLE FOR VOLLEYBALL!
: ...
: Don't stay quiet...say something! What's your actual purpose...? You're out enemy and an enemy of the Future Foundation, so what's your true identity!?





: If the Future Foundation is the World Ender... Then I will end the new world that the Future Foundation has created...
: ...Huh?
: Well, you'll just have to look forward to the rest after the countdown ends!



: That timer...has almost reached zero. If it reaches zero, everything will end. The Future Foundation's lame plan...will be nothing but toilet bubbles...



: And when that time comes, you'll know everything. You'll see all of your questions answered in one go.
: And then, you guys will find out for yourselves just how messed up this new world is.
: ...Huh? A new world? Don't go saying poo poo all of a sudden...!



: Well, just think of the remaining two days until the countdown reaches zero as a "bonus"
: While you're at it, you should enjoy your life on this tropical island to the fullest. Cuz once you leave this island...
: Your hopeless lives back home will be waiting for you!



: Ahhhhhh-hahahahahaha! Ahhhhhhhh-hahahahahahahahahaha!



Music fades out.

Monokuma's boisterous laughter carried on for what felt like forever. Our questions, our worries, our sadness were simply ignored... The laughter just kept going...forever.

...

As for what we did afterwards...

...Honestly, it doesn't matter at all.





I returned to my cottage for the time being...and fell asleep...



Even after I woke up, my will to move my body didn't come back.

That's why... I didn't look back on everything that happened up till now.. I didn't think about what was going to happen...

I just kept praying that nothing else would happen...and burrowed deep into my sheets, as if I were trying to hide.



In doing so...I was somehow trying to endure the long day.



And then...the sun finally set.

The day feels abnormally long when you spend it praying that nothing happens.

Which reminds me...I haven't heard Monokuma's announcement. I guess...that isn't needed anymore...

...Is everything really going to end?


: What is "everything" anyway?

How far, how much is...everything?

If we leave this island...is everything going to end? There's still so much we don't know...

About our school memories, the Future Foundation, Hope's Peak Academy, Monokuma's true purpose...

Can we really end this and turn our back on all that?


: And not just that...if we're really leaving, then where are we going? ...To Hope's Peak Academy?
: ...
: ...



That was...my last night at Jabberwock Island.

At a place where my worries didn't even matter...everything was about to end.


































































Hey, you should probably watch this.











No Music.

I feel like I had a fun dream...somehow. I think it was about my childhood.

Because of that, I was able to face the day with a somewhat happier feeling than usual.

That's right...it's the last day... According to Monokuma...






: ...!

Suddenly, my body shuddered. Right when I opened my eyes, I was gripped by a fear that I had never felt before.

A fear like I had been abandoned in this world... Completely, utterly alone... With nobody left on this island...

Kazuichi, Fuyuhiko, Akane, Sonia...

Like everyone was gone and I couldn't find them anywhere... I suddenly couldn't believe in anything, like everything in this world was nothing but lies...


: ...Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!

I rushed out of the cottage, desperate to escape that fear.

I rushed out of the cottage desperate to escape that fear.

Music cuts out.

I rushed out of the cottage desperate to escape that fear.












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eating only apples
Dec 12, 2009

Shall we dance?



Ooooh boy, here we go

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