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Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

I ain't got time to bleed.

Acacia REI posted:

I think that's a fair analysis. I still think it was awkwardly placed though, considering the two women she'd just off'd were shamelessly evil and were trying to kill not only her, but her pregnant friend. IDK it just bothered me when it happened. Like I remember thinking "oh wow this is a great bait-and-switch, good job Carol!" and then it just wasn't and I was like "Well then...."

Carol turned awesome when she single-handedly obliterated Terminus and remained awesome until the incident with the kid, when suddenly she starts crying about being the most effective character on the show. That said the poo poo with her and Morgan getting into a loving fight in the middle of an attack was dumb.. as.. hell. But nobody escapes the stupidity of Walking Dead.

Anyone in this thread saying Post-Terminus and Pre-Pacifist Carol wasn't awesome are wrong. Personally I love the fact a background character marked as a red shirt and with a lame as hell comics counterpoint has turned into quite possibly the most dangerous person in Alexandria is awesome. Seriously though I think she's more dangerous than Rick and Daryl put together.

PS: They'd solve all their problems if they pointed the walking WMD known as Carol at his base. The way they were screwing her up at the end, I almost want a parody where she was at the Negan scene and just starts killing all of Negan's men while balling "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I don't want to murder every last one of you, I just can't help it."

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at Oct 14, 2016 around 02:03

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Luvcow
Jul 1, 2007

One day nearer spring



Blazing Ownager posted:

Carol turned awesome when she single-handedly obliterated Terminus and remained awesome until the incident with the kid, when suddenly she starts crying about being the most effective character on the show. That said the poo poo with her and Morgan getting into a loving fight in the middle of an attack was dumb.. as.. hell. But nobody escapes the stupidity of Walking Dead.

Anyone in this thread saying Post-Terminus and Pre-Pacifist Carol wasn't awesome are wrong.

They'd solve all their problems if they pointed the walking WMD known as Carol at his base.

Yeah but i see at as that's the point. She doesn't want to be a ruthless killer but she's really good at it and that's what/who she was fighting most of her life, now she's becoming that monster and it's because she's trying to defend all these other people. That's the way i saw it but yeah i can definitely agree it seemed like the writers may have kinda forced it at the time because they seem to have a rotating list of who is going to lose it at that time.

Stickarts
Dec 21, 2003

literally


The show really wanted to juxtapose Carol with Morgan (which is a good idea and potentially very fruitful) but, as is the case so often with this show, the execution was just terrible.

RenegadeStyle1
Jun 7, 2005


If you want to have Morgan and Carol's battling ideas you can't prove either one unequivocally wrong. You can't just make Morgan wrong all the time it has to pay off with his kind of thinking sometimes too.

Cactus
Jun 24, 2006


RenegadeStyle1 posted:

If you want to have Morgan and Carol's battling ideas you can't prove either one unequivocally wrong. You can't just make Morgan wrong all the time it has to pay off with his kind of thinking sometimes too.

There were hints of this with that wolf guy saving the doctors life just before Carol shoots him. Also I believe the resolution of the negan arc and the subsequent time skip has Rick coming to a similar conclusion and adopting a more moderate civilised way of being for the community. E.g. negan ends up jailed instead of executed.

I do think a lot of the shows criticisms end up getting addressed, or are going to be if you take where the source material into account. It's just that they love to drag things out, repeat past mistakes, miss or squander blatant opportunities to do interesting things with either premise or character, and when they do make a good decision for the show, it's hit and miss as to whether the execution of said decision is done in a satisfying way.

For me hate-watching is the wrong term; I like the show. It's more like frustration-watching, and as such I also like reading posts that poo poo all over it as well as ones that like it because they're both valid positions to take.

vintagepurple
Jan 31, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo


Carol didn't work for me because one minute she's scared and wifey, the next she's murdering friendlies, then suddenly she's Rambo. Daryl or Rick I can tell where they got their skills, her not so much.

Also how dumb all her plots are. Killing the two sick people didn't help. The Wolf did in fact vindicate himself and do good, and Carol's obsession with killing him in the middle of an attack just made her look dumb, she ends up giving him the means go escame. An indistracted Morgan would have beat him right back into submission. But even Morgan himself doesn't point this out ever except right before "confessing" to Rick, and he fails to mention Carol being at fault. Morgan is worse for keeping a prisoner than Carol is for attacking a comrade in the middle of a massive attack? (One of their most proven zombie killers to boot.)

Everyone hatÓng on Morgan seems dumb. His pacifism has never got anyone hurt or killed, and Rick's close call could just as easily been a group of zombies that anyone would have bypassed. Denice's close call proved Morgan right. On top of that he's proven himself one of the best zombie fighters and survivors in the group- in fact only Carol has spent nearly as much time "out there" alone. And all the poor guy does is advise, he's never shown holding a grudge towards Rick or anyone for killing.

Stuff like this makes the show come away with a theme of "trust no one, shoot first" and knowing a lot of concealed-carrying Texas rednecks that love the show and fantasize about disasters so they'll get an opportunity to shoot people...

Cactus
Jun 24, 2006


vintagepurple posted:

Carol didn't work for me because one minute she's scared and wifey, the next she's murdering friendlies, then suddenly she's Rambo. Daryl or Rick I can tell where they got their skills, her not so much.

This is a very good point, and I say this as someone for whom Carol is a favourite: but yeah, exactly how and where did she get her elite killing skills from? Like the latest example where she sleeve-machine-gunned all those dudes. That whole scene was set up with the assumption that this is a badly one-sided match in favour of Carol, she was pleading with them to run so she wouldn't have to kill them all. Yes, the individual standing alone in the middle of a road with 4-5 people all with guns trained on her was depicted as the foregone conclusion to win the fight because she is Badass Carol. That scene didn't work at all.

xxEightxx
Mar 5, 2010

Oh, it's true. You are Brock Landers!


Salad Prong

vintagepurple posted:

Carol didn't work for me because one minute she's scared and wifey, the next she's murdering friendlies, then suddenly she's Rambo. Daryl or Rick I can tell where they got their skills, her not so much.

Twd is like a rogue like role playing game. Once a character is leveled up they basically become op, doesnt matter if you get the exp from killing zombies or baking and washing clothes. Daryl taking a tank out with a rock or whatever, carol taking down sanctuary, Morgon winning 5v1 with a stick. That's how you know Negan is going to lose, he's been farming all the exp for himself so yea he's tough but his followers are a bunch of lvl 1s.

moist turtleneck
Jul 17, 2003

Represent.

Dinosaur Gum

They definitely have some levels devoted to stealth and whistling though

Also construction/log cutting

bobjr
Oct 16, 2012

Roose is loose.


Carol's daughter was her power limiter basically.

vintagepurple
Jan 31, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo


xxEightxx posted:

Twd is like a rogue like role playing game. Once a character is leveled up they basically become op, doesnt matter if you get the exp from killing zombies or baking and washing clothes. Daryl taking a tank out with a rock or whatever, carol taking down sanctuary, Morgon winning 5v1 with a stick. That's how you know Negan is going to lose, he's been farming all the exp for himself so yea he's tough but his followers are a bunch of lvl 1s.

That tank was one of the most disappointing antagonists in this show. Like the dipshits weren't even firing its machine guns, then Daryl runs right up and melees it.

moist turtleneck
Jul 17, 2003

Represent.

Dinosaur Gum

Did we ever find out what was in Bob's box? It always felt like they meant to write something about that

edit: of course reddit knew:

Last season. It was a bottle of alcohol. Glenn turned it into a Molotov cocktail during his escape.

Gortarius
Jun 6, 2013

idiot

Well well well.... looks like the season is upon us once again. This time they are banking everything on having a CGI tiger.

Which means their budget for anything else that is CGI is zero.


From what I recall, Maggie had diarrhea and they shoved 30 people into the RV and drove off and got waylaid by a bunch of lumberjacks and the lumberjack leader squashed a bottle of Heinz ketchup, then the episode ended.

I believe I told myself to just skip this coming season since there is no chance it'll be any good but... can I really do it? It is a mystery.


Actually, according to the fabled "black highlander" rules, since the goofy rastafari king is black one of the previous black people has to die. Therefore it is either Michonne or Michonne with glasses who got canned. I forget if the latter was even there.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Deal With it Midgardian

The only good thing is we know Trevor Phillips survived the Apocalypse.

vintagepurple
Jan 31, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo


Gortarius posted:

Well well well.... looks like the season is upon us once again. This time they are banking everything on having a CGI tiger.

Which means their budget for anything else that is CGI is zero.


From what I recall, Maggie had diarrhea and they shoved 30 people into the RV and drove off and got waylaid by a bunch of lumberjacks and the lumberjack leader squashed a bottle of Heinz ketchup, then the episode ended.

I believe I told myself to just skip this coming season since there is no chance it'll be any good but... can I really do it? It is a mystery.


Actually, according to the fabled "black highlander" rules, since the goofy rastafari king is black one of the previous black people has to die. Therefore it is either Michonne or Michonne with glasses who got canned. I forget if the latter was even there.

Turns out irish and asians count towards the minority quota pal

Gortarius
Jun 6, 2013

idiot

vintagepurple posted:

Turns out irish and asians count towards the minority quota pal

I thought each minority had their own quota system.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

I ain't got time to bleed.

Luvcow posted:

Yeah but i see at as that's the point. She doesn't want to be a ruthless killer but she's really good at it and that's what/who she was fighting most of her life, now she's becoming that monster and it's because she's trying to defend all these other people. That's the way i saw it but yeah i can definitely agree it seemed like the writers may have kinda forced it at the time because they seem to have a rotating list of who is going to lose it at that time.

I wish I bookmarked that gif of her crying and firing the uzi and cutting to all the carnage she causes that was in the last thread. The problem is they evolved her character on an arc to make her from the weakest of the group to the strongest, and instead of exploring her concern over time with the cookies kid and such, they suddenly made her into a pacifist. I am sorry but that scene where she's crying "I don't want to kill you" while mowing down a truck load of people with a loving uzi was comedy gold, not emotionally hitting.

I think it also sucks that they took such a unique character - an older woman everyone thinks is a pathetic house wife but is actually the biggest badass in Rick's crew, bigger than the survivalist or the 6'5 guy with a rocket launcher - and then reduced her to crying about her lot in life and having an emotional realization. It's lame. Daryl or Abraham don't get those kind of moments "because they're badasses." I liked the fact Carol was on the Badass list, given everything about her and her origin made it so against type.

Basically I am really, really hoping Morgan's realization he can't be a total no-kill pussy finally snaps her back into that badass. You all can talk about deep character motivation with her if you want, but she really added something to not just the show - but to TV in general, being where she was: An "action hero" that in no way looks like one, and who's origin should have made them the victim. I'm OK with layers but no more abrupt bullshit.

ED: Also gently caress realism on this one. You've got a bunch of way, way more over the top characters than her. She was plenty grounded as the pragmatic one. The only stupid thing she ever did was insist on gunning down the Wolves instead of interrogating them about their base camp when captured, THEN offing them. But I guess she had psychic writer vision to know the wolves were just going to gently caress off and never be heard from again?

twistedmentat posted:

The only good thing is we know Trevor Phillips survived the Apocalypse.

Is it wrong that he's the main reason I'm coming back?

I really hope his role is rather large in this. Ogg is awesome in whatever he shows up in.

Also I'd be a hundred more times afraid of Trevor than Negan. Even if Negan beats people's heads in with a bat, everything we've seen of him (even the previews) he's smug, in control and in his mind reasonable in his will breaking. Where as Ogg/Trevor (Come on, everyone's going to keep calling him Trevor) feels like he could snap and just beat everyone to death in a milisecond of bad decision making, and then double down and have your entire town burnt to the ground.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at Oct 14, 2016 around 19:00

moist turtleneck
Jul 17, 2003

Represent.

Dinosaur Gum

moist turtleneck posted:

http://i.imgur.com/pqtGggE.gifv

moist turtleneck
Jul 17, 2003

Represent.

Dinosaur Gum

lol I forgot about this one

http://i.imgur.com/Xq1FGpG.gifv

SLICK GOKU BABY
Jun 12, 2001


twistedmentat posted:

The only good thing is we know Trevor Phillips survived the Apocalypse.

It's actually pretty amazing, dude did such a good job voicing a video game character, that every time he gets a live action role, he is still Trevor from GTA 5.

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

Clunk! Clunk! Clunk! Clunk!



Doesn't hurt that he pretty much looks exactly like Trevor.

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002

Don't fuckle with Shuckle(s)

Like that other Shuckle, but different.


SLICK GOKU BABY posted:

It's actually pretty amazing, dude did such a good job voicing a video game character, that every time he gets a live action role, he is still Trevor from GTA 5.

Well, he really is Trevor so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsaLDnl_fEs

Ego-bot
Jul 8, 2007


vintagepurple posted:

Everyone hatÓng on Morgan seems dumb. His pacifism has never got anyone hurt or killed, and Rick's close call could just as easily been a group of zombies that anyone would have bypassed. Denice's close call proved Morgan right. On top of that he's proven himself one of the best zombie fighters and survivors in the group- in fact only Carol has spent nearly as much time "out there" alone. And all the poor guy does is advise, he's never shown holding a grudge towards Rick or anyone for killing.

When Morgan first encounters those two Wolves in the forest who try to kill him, he knocks them both out. Instead of leaving them there to get eaten or finishing them off himself he puts them into a car. These two later capture and kill the unnamed red poncho guy and find Aaron's bag of information about Alexandria. The Wolves are alerted to Alexandria's presence, kill many people in that attack and end up attracting a massive zombie horde which kills more people.

All because Morgan needed to save those two lives.

bobjr
Oct 16, 2012

Roose is loose.


The show also tried to show Morgan as being the right one and Carol the wrong one, so there really was no moral issue in the show. Carol taking out the wolves attacking the town was great, but they tried to act like what she was doing was just outright wrong.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

DAMMIT WESLEY!!!


bobjr posted:

The show also tried to show Morgan as being the right one and Carol the wrong one, so there really was no moral issue in the show. Carol taking out the wolves attacking the town was great, but they tried to act like what she was doing was just outright wrong.
This show has never been able to do the 'contrasting two characters' philosophical battles' thing well.

If done properly the Governor arc would have been perfect, since he could have been a dark mirror of what Rick was trying to do with his group/the prison. Instead the Governor is just crazy and everything he does makes it very surprising he can function like a regular person, despite apparently establishing a functional society to a degree. They even led into this with the whole meltdown from Rick at the end of Season 2 which led to people talking about the 'Ricktatorship', but it's not followed up on well.

It should have been:

-Rick runs things by consensus from his group
-The Governor runs his town through fear and by himself

That's not even getting into how the Andrea/Governor relationship was a complete waste of everyone's time since even until near the end she thinks he can still be redeemed despite everything to the contrary.

They botch the same 'debate' between two characters' different views on survival by making both Morgan and Carol wrong at different times, which undercuts their views. So then neither one seems like they have a good point to make.

vintagepurple
Jan 31, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo


Ego-bot posted:

When Morgan first encounters those two Wolves in the forest who try to kill him, he knocks them both out. Instead of leaving them there to get eaten or finishing them off himself he puts them into a car. These two later capture and kill the unnamed red poncho guy and find Aaron's bag of information about Alexandria. The Wolves are alerted to Alexandria's presence, kill many people in that attack and end up attracting a massive zombie horde which kills more people.

All because Morgan needed to save those two lives.

That's pretty convoluted if it's meant to show "pacifism is wrong". Especially cuz Aaron takes responsibility onscreen. The real culprit is Alexandria's criminal lack of recon and confidentiality. Had any of those other wolves captured Aaron which they almost certainly would have, they'd just kill him and get the info anyway. Meanwhile other than in active combat zones, all Carol's killplots range from neutral to harmful towards her team.

Neither Carol or Morgan is correct but everyone is loyal to Carol and shits on Morgan, yet his one fuckup is unknown to anyone onscreen including himself. In particular Carol assaulting Morgan to kill the wolf seems like it should be ground for renewed expulsion, that could've ended up with Carol, Morgan, Denyse, Rosita, governor's-sister-in-law, and Eugene all dying to the wolf/walkers.

Also the machine gun sleeve scene and soloing Terminus were hella dumb and I wish Carol was decent. Even a little buildup would've improved her.

vintagepurple fucked around with this message at Oct 15, 2016 around 04:43

RenegadeStyle1
Jun 7, 2005


Yeah going from housewife to black ops commando in such a short amount of time is really weird.

Tenzarin
Jul 24, 2007

Let me sing you a song


Taco Defender

twistedmentat posted:

The only good thing is we know Trevor Phillips survived the Apocalypse.

Trevor Philips Industries would make the best zombie show.

Bored
Jul 26, 2007

Dude, ix-nay on the oice-vay.

Cactus posted:

Haha did you just click on one of the hundreds of NEGAN KILL LEAKED videos that are currently spamming your youtube sidebar because you watched a few walking dead clips some time?

It Glenn and Abe, the shadows said so.

Actually, they just filmed a death for each character, then they are going to have a whole episode devoted to Neegan's backstory, then have a contest during the talking dead where the winner gets to choose who dies. Then we will see them die in episode 2.

UmOk
Aug 3, 2003


Still hope he kills all those fuckers.

The Cosby Mysteries
Oct 4, 2007

Happy Birthday, Mr. President

Has Fear of The Walking Dead improved after season 1? I'm tempted to binge S2 but I don't have much of a desire to do it.

I just wish the main main characters weren't so seemingly invincible on the verge of ridiculous. Like when Rick was out of gas and zombies bumrushed the trailer and the next episode he's fine and got out with almost no explanation other than 'it's Rick you fuckheads'.

That's why I loved the scene with Glenn. Killing off a main character on a run-of-the-mil away mission like that would have been pretty ballsy but nope the magic dumpster came to the rescue. I hate react videos but it was a pretty shocking moment at the time and the fallout in the s6 thread made it so much sweeter.

I have to say I'm pretty impressed that they kept the Negan kill under wraps. Even though they threatened the fanbase with lawsuits which I think is pretty hosed up.

Cactus
Jun 24, 2006


Bored posted:

Actually, they just filmed a death for each character, then they are going to have a whole episode devoted to Neegan's backstory, then have a contest during the talking dead where the winner gets to choose who dies. Then we will see them die in episode 2.

Did they actually do that? The filming I mean. I saw it in some clickbait article about how AMC were using the death scenes in contract negotiations but assumed it was bullshit. Then again it's AMC we're talking about.

Bored
Jul 26, 2007

Dude, ix-nay on the oice-vay.

Cactus posted:

Did they actually do that? The filming I mean. I saw it in some clickbait article about how AMC were using the death scenes in contract negotiations but assumed it was bullshit. Then again it's AMC we're talking about.

I have no loving idea. I just want it to play out like the end of "Clue'" placards and all.

Stickarts
Dec 21, 2003

literally


Rewatching the series because, again, I hate myself. Shane and Dale are way more compelling characters than what we have now. Killing Shane off had to happen, but it still feels abrupt - better writing could have developed that story out another season.

Killing Dale and then Herschel eliminates the group's moral connection to the old world which leaves us without context and Morgan just doesn't seem to work as well in that role.

Others have said it, but this show is waaaay better binge watching. You glaze over the crawling episodes and you never have to wait a week to watch the glacier move again.

Acacia REI
Oct 8, 2016



The Cosby Mysteries posted:

That's why I loved the scene with Glenn. Killing off a main character on a run-of-the-mil away mission like that would have been pretty ballsy but nope the magic dumpster came to the rescue. I hate react videos but it was a pretty shocking moment at the time and the fallout in the s6 thread made it so much sweeter

Agreed. I liked it was so unexpected and didn't occur during a finale. But I could tell just from the way that it was shot that it was going to be a fake-out. It would have been so, so much better if they'd just left him dead.

The Cosby Mysteries posted:

Has Fear of The Walking Dead improved after season 1? I'm tempted to binge S2 but I don't have much of a desire to do it.

I personally enjoyed S2 but if you don't like invincible main characters, you won't like it.

Luvcow
Jul 1, 2007

One day nearer spring



Acacia REI posted:

Agreed. I liked it was so unexpected and didn't occur during a finale. But I could tell just from the way that it was shot that it was going to be a fake-out. It would have been so, so much better if they'd just left him dead.

Absolutely. They had a nice little build up to the scene too with the guy who shot himself trying to redeem himself and p much utterly failing to do so and that kind of being on Glenn for not telling him no.

Johnny Truant
Jul 22, 2008

Ahhh, ninja beer!
Ninja beer?
Beer that vanish without trace!


The Cosby Mysteries posted:

Has Fear of The Walking Dead improved after season 1? I'm tempted to binge S2 but I don't have much of a desire to do it.

Don't waste your time, it's the worst show on TV right now. Its plot makes TWD look like it was written by Sam Esmail, and the acting makes Rick's accent 100% authentic.

A True Jar Jar Fan
Nov 3, 2003



The acting on Fear is fine to good. The writing and directing is super terrible and I feel like an idiot for binging through season 2 recently.

Luvcow
Jul 1, 2007

One day nearer spring



I think there are many, many worse shows currently on tv

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Johnny Truant
Jul 22, 2008

Ahhh, ninja beer!
Ninja beer?
Beer that vanish without trace!


A True Jar Jar Fan posted:

The acting on Fear is fine to good. The writing and directing is super terrible and I feel like an idiot for binging through season 2 recently.

To each their own. I feel like Alycia Debnam Cary is the next Kristin Stewart, Madidumb has been awful from the get- go and Chris was mediocre, at best, at playing a brooding teenager which is the easiest role for a literal brooding teenage actor.

Strand is the only one who has legit talent imo. I saw him in a movie(Beautiful Something) way before FTWD and was very impressed. His talents are squandered on this show.

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