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Mr-Spain posted:Wanting to stick with the 4 speed for any particular reason? I'm guessing because the 4l80 is easy to come by, reliable long term, and can be built to take some torque.
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Oct 10, 2017 20:22
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Mr-Spain posted:Wanting to stick with the 4 speed for any particular reason? angryrobots posted:I'm guessing because the 4l80 is easy to come by, reliable long term, and can be built to take some torque. slothrop posted:It's awesome you have a good network of guys to talk to. Don't be afraid to ask around though. You've got so much time before you need to commit to anything you may as well get a bunch of opinions. Right, of course. No decisions are final yet but based on the information I have now this is the way I am leaning. I really do like the idea of 600+ naturally Aspirated horsepower. I still have to consult with folks about the seats, getting three point seatbelts in the front seats without using the roof, which means I need to import seats from something where the seatbelt is built into the seat. I'll talk to other folks about engine builds before then also. My skill level is that I have some conceptual knowledge but have never done it, and I am picking it up as I go. I am trying really hard to avoid cool bro TV shows and forums about the topic instead talking to people who do it for a living and listening to people who are vouched for. Wrar posted:For your desired power levels there is absolutely no need to do aftermarket EFI. BitBasher fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 21:49
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BitBasher posted:"The wrong part of the state" is going to very wildly depending on where you are standing when you ask that question! I'm in Vegas. (Which is likely the wrong part of the state for anyone that lives more than hour north...) I'm closer to Reno unfortunately, but it's not unreasonable that I could someday end up living down south.
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Oct 10, 2017 23:45
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BitBasher posted:I still have to consult with folks about the seats, getting three point seatbelts in the front seats without using the roof, which means I need to import seats from something where the seatbelt is built into the seat. I'll talk to other folks about engine builds before then also. When I was looking at seats for my '70 E100 the early-mid Tahoe seats kept jumping out at me because they're one of the better implementations of belt-in-seat, but I'd doubt they'd work in a sports car of that era.
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Oct 11, 2017 05:13
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Dannywilson posted:When I was looking at seats for my '70 E100 the early-mid Tahoe seats kept jumping out at me because they're one of the better implementations of belt-in-seat, but I'd doubt they'd work in a sports car of that era. I'll take a look at them. Currently I had recommended to me Chrysler Lebaron seats from the 90s and 00s, but I haven't actually talked to the seat guy yet. It's also worth noting that this 66 Chevelle wasn't a sports car at all, it was a family sedan more or less. My 2 door Malibu coupe was the same height as the 4 door model. The seats you suggested may work. I'l put it on the list. SUV seats seem to be one of the the more common that have the 3 point built in for some reason. They can be upholstered to look appropriate if they work logistically.
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Oct 11, 2017 06:06
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The Chevy Trailblazer also has a good implementation, but probably not the best for this application.
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Oct 11, 2017 06:07
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The whole gm seatbelt in the seat thing works well enough, but the seats aren't what I'd choose for something capable of doing 200mph. They're pretty much a big captains chair. Why not a harness bar and a decent 4 or 5 point?
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Oct 11, 2017 06:15
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Cop Porn Popper posted:The whole gm seatbelt in the seat thing works well enough, but the seats aren't what I'd choose for something capable of doing 200mph. They're pretty much a big captains chair. I wouldn’t throw decades old luxobarge seats in something I was spending (insert crazy money amount here) but each their own. But also didnt he say they gave up on this as going fast? Or did that change?
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Oct 11, 2017 06:22
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Either way, its gonna scoot with the power levels he's talking about. I would want a harness at that point. A harness bar might also give a mounting point for a 3pt belt setup along with future funhaving setups.
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Oct 11, 2017 09:47
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Belted seats are terrible. I wouldn't recommend it either. However if you're looking for something a bit more modern, the first gen CTS-V had them. They're extremely heavy though (for a seat, all that power poo poo adds up).
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Oct 11, 2017 13:34
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everdave posted:I wouldn’t throw decades old luxobarge seats in something I was spending (insert crazy money amount here) but each their own. But also didnt he say they gave up on this as going fast? Or did that change? It's up in the air. I still want to, but it seems that comfort and insanity are hard to cross over in the middle. If I can find a way tro do it and still keep the car enjoyable to drive then I am all for it. Cop Porn Popper posted:The whole gm seatbelt in the seat thing works well enough, but the seats aren't what I'd choose for something capable of doing 200mph. They're pretty much a big captains chair. Well, my only problem with this is that the harness attaching to a roll bar is perfectly fine, I don't mind making the rear seat cosmetic, but from what I could find any time you do this the bar needs to be welded to the frame and not the body, which I would think would really negatively affect the quality of day to day operations with the added road noise. If this is a viable option I am all for it. I just don't know enough to say so yet as this veers into territory that I know jack and poo poo about. In my mind, speaking from ignorance, it seems like what I would like is a 3 point seat belt built into the seat for day to day driving and a harness bar with a 4 or 5 point not used on a daily bases but there for when I wanted to do track days or something less casual. I don't know if that is viable though. The car has no B pillars at all, so I'm not sure what needs to be done to make that bar structurally sound if it is an option. Larrymer posted:Belted seats are terrible. I wouldn't recommend it either. BitBasher fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 14:23
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BitBasher posted:
Naturally aspirated is the route you seem to be going down but man for all the work and money involved in your car I'd find it hard to not build something with a turbo. It's just so much fun felling the boost hit and the sound is addictive. It all looks great though and you're gonna have a monster on your hands when you're finished. An absolutely immaculate perfectly built monster.
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Oct 12, 2017 02:31
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My car doesn't technically have a b pillar, the(optional) shoulder belt is anchored to the roof. It even has a hook to hold the shoulder belt for when you just feel like using the lap belt. A 3 point attached to a roll bar would retain rear seat usage. Bolt-in harness bars seem to be a common thing which is strange if they're not legal for what they're designed for. A bolt in harness bar, using lap belts alone when carrying rear passengers doesn't seem like too crazy of a compromise if it's legal for the type of competition you plan on doing. I can't think of a seat with an integrated seatbelt and any kind of bolstering whatsoever. I put RSX seats in my pickup and there is strong bolstering, they're comfortable enough for my fat rear end, and they're manual seats which means i was able to huff 2 of them out of the pick-n-pull on my shoulders. I looked at a few Audi and BMWs for seats, but their seat rails are integrated into the frame of the car. e: the beltline is probably too low, but a lot of modern convertibles just have the belt coming out of the body behind the door. even older, lower beltline cars do the same with the belt being held up by the seat.  If you're 100% set on seatbelts coming out of the seats, i think the only worthwhile answer might be the BMW 8 series, but it still seems like a massive compromise. 
Powershift fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 11:37
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BitBasher posted:I don't see that I have an option other than seatbelts in the seats, as the original car just had a lap belt bolted to the floor. I can't anchor to the roof or B pillar like most cars because since there is no B pillar the roof is not a really reliable mounting point in a wreck. You're beginning to see the compromises of street/track cars. You say you want this car to do the track event going 165mph? Have you looked at the safety requirements there? https://www.sscc.us/documents/global/pdf/2017_rulebook.pdf Grand Sport Division Classes: 130, 135, 140, 145, 150, 155 Technical Speed: 165 mph C. A five or six-point safety harness system that includes three-inch (3”) shoulder and lap belts as a minimum (see “Restraint Systems” section, including note on Harness Bars). All belts must be in “as new” condition, no more than four (4) years old. Sternum belts are recommended for seats that do not support the shoulder straps, however large metal buckles on the sternum strap are not recommended. The use of a “cam-lock” seat belt locking system is recommended. D. Arm Restraints or window nets are mandatory. E. A competition approved Roll Bar is required (see “Rollover Protection” section) If you're doing a cage or roll bar/harness bar anyway, I'd look into the Schroth 4 points that work like a 3 point that have submarine protection. They would need to be swapped for 5/6 points for your racing stuff but they'll connect to the seat and the bar the rest of the time. https://www.schrothracing.com/products/rallye-belts#1575
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Oct 12, 2017 15:28
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Powershift posted:retain rear seat usage... Powershift posted:If you're 100% set on seatbelts coming out of the seats, i think the only worthwhile answer might be the BMW 8 series, but it still seems like a massive compromise. I'm not at all set on seatbelts coming out of the seats, it just seems like for comfort and accessibility of regular driving on the weekends that's a good option. The seats are made strong enough to hopefully not get me killed during regular driving and they are comfortable, the floor would be reinforced for whatever seat I would go with. I think it's a little obnoxious to put on a 5 or 6 point for driving to work on a Friday or taking the lake shore road driving around Lake Mead cruising for the hell of it. When it comes to seatbelts I'm not set on anything really. I know jack poo poo, and I can't really find any actual safety data on seat swaps, aftermarket seats, crossbar supported harnesses or anything. I don't know poo poo, and I am fully aware of it. Larrymer posted:You're beginning to see the compromises of street/track cars. You say you want this car to do the track event going 165mph? Have you looked at the safety requirements there? I was contemplating either putting a bar/cage in just for the race then pulling it out or just leaving it in. I don't know how much just the roll bar will negatively impact the car when not doing track days or a road race, especially since to meet spec it has to be welded to the frame and not just the body. If a roll bar won't totally poo poo up my normal driving experience I will happily leave it in, it would help for rollover protection anyway. Really I was planning on having a 3 point built into the seat for everyday driving, then when I do the race or track days just ignoring it, not using it and instead using a 5 (or 6) point that I would keep attached but tucked away under and behind the seat and only use it when called for. Maybe have a pouch upholstered into the seat back the shoulder straps could stuff into when not used. Is there a reason this would not work? Is this a bad or unsafe idea for some reason I am not aware? That's the reason I wanted one built into the seat, so I could use it if desired, with both systems installed and functional should I desire to use them.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:57
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You can’t just pouch away the safety stuff if you want to drive 165, I’m not digging you hell I used to drag race my 76 Nova with a fake lap belt I cut out of a junkyard to las the simple safety inspection. It’s just that at 150+ miles an hour you are certainly going to die if something goes wrong without cage and 5+ point harness correctly tied in. But you have a long long time to plan all this and like people said who knows how good stuff will be in 2 years?
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Oct 12, 2017 20:01
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That's one issue I always ran up against when daydreaming about having a seriously fast street car. Properly buckled into a 5-point harness, you can't reach the radio or HVAC controls which kind of nixes that for me on a DD, and having to engineer in a second seat belt design is kind of a pain on something that's already going to be highly custom and didn't already have a 3-point. If you're just driving it on the street occasionally, it might not be a big deal, but on a regular basis (and if there's going to be a passenger, they're not going to be excited either) it's a hassle.
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Oct 12, 2017 20:07
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everdave posted:You can’t just pouch away the safety stuff if you want to drive 165, I’m not digging you hell I used to drag race my 76 Nova with a fake lap belt I cut out of a junkyard to las the simple safety inspection. It’s just that at 150+ miles an hour you are certainly going to die if something goes wrong without cage and 5+ point harness correctly tied in. But you have a long long time to plan all this and like people said who knows how good stuff will be in 2 years? boxen posted:That's one issue I always ran up against when daydreaming about having a seriously fast street car. Properly buckled into a 5-point harness, you can't reach the radio or HVAC controls which kind of nixes that for me on a DD, and having to engineer in a second seat belt design is kind of a pain on something that's already going to be highly custom and didn't already have a 3-point. Driving on the street will be a majority of what I do with it. Couple days a week, probably with passengers relatively often. Track days, dragging, or AutoX would be a sideline because it's fun. Even the SSCC race would be one time a year, twice a year if I run in the NORC as well. Probably 90% or more of the driving will be street. Right now It doesn't have a 3 point at all, nor seat belts, nor seats. I have literally nothing, I am building the interior absolutely from scratch. It's wide open how I do it. If anyone ever thought something would be neat but a hassle to implement now is the time and this is the car for it. I'm just a jackass with a dream of an awesome car. Part of the reason I posted this thread is so that if necessary people can save me from myself if needed. BitBasher fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 20:31
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Like many I think I started reading this build with doubts but you’ve put your money where your mouth is and it is awesome so far. Just stay safe man!
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Oct 13, 2017 17:54
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boxen posted:That's one issue I always ran up against when daydreaming about having a seriously fast street car. Properly buckled into a 5-point harness, you can't reach the radio or HVAC controls which kind of nixes that for me on a DD Not to mention that if you aren't wearing a HANS, you're hosed in a crash since the airbag won't do anything and those harnesses won't give. Honestly I'd just run a lower class and keep it DD friendly, or put a cage in it and go balls out. Compromise cars have never worked for me because they're just that, a compromise.
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Oct 14, 2017 00:26
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Larrymer posted:Not to mention that if you aren't wearing a HANS, you're hosed in a crash since the airbag won't do anything and those harnesses won't give. Airbag? In a '66 Chevelle? Safety is a relative thing here, and in this case the bar / no-bar is muddied by the fact that the car will completely crumble in a hard hit without it. How to balance that against smashing your head against the bar in a wreck while driving on the street, I'm not sure.
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Oct 14, 2017 00:35
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IOwnCalculus posted:Airbag? In a '66 Chevelle? Obviously not this particular case. In general it's just a bad idea with 5-6 points in a DD/street car was my point. Suburban Dad fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 03:50
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IOwnCalculus posted:Airbag? In a '66 Chevelle? Get one of those "No Airbags - We Die Like Men" stickers.
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Oct 14, 2017 06:00
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Godholio posted:Get one of those "No Airbags - We Die Like Men" stickers. 
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Oct 14, 2017 06:08
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Larrymer posted:Not to mention that if you aren't wearing a HANS, you're hosed in a crash since the airbag won't do anything and those harnesses won't give. I agree with you, but this car puts me in a weird place after looking into it. I know I'm hosed crashing at 165. (The actual average speed is 130-155 max but that is neither here nor there) The issue is these cars were bad enough in crashes I'm also hosed at lower speeds compared to modern cars. That's why at the very least I want a 3 point instead of just a lap belt even as a DD, statistically that will help a bunch. The collapsible steering column will at least help a little. In a rollover the car likely going to crush too. It just doesn't have the tensile strength to keep the passenger compartment intact. I can run the max 124/average 95-110 class with a 2 1/2 pound fire bottle and factory or better seat belts and that's it. Even at 100 though I'm probably hosed in a real wreck. Hell I'm probably hosed at legal speed limits on the freeway in this car. The max 140/average 115-125 class straight requires a 5 or 6 point in addition to the fire bottle and window nets or arm restraints and a roll bar, the 130-155 average max speed 165 class is essentially the same. Driving this car seems to be a compromise in regards to safety to some degree no matter where or how I drive it. IOwnCalculus posted:Safety is a relative thing here, and in this case the bar / no-bar is muddied by the fact that the car will completely crumble in a hard hit without it. How to balance that against smashing your head against the bar in a wreck while driving on the street, I'm not sure. This right here is the main cause for my debate. A roll bar alone gives me a place to mount a harness bar while being behind and above me and I shouldn't be able to mash my head on it, but I could definitely be wrong. I figured the rollover protection could be good even for random DD driving with no harness. If I could manage to smash my head on the bar above and behind me then well, I don't know. Godholio posted:Get one of those "No Airbags - We Die Like Men" stickers. I get the impression that's just the way cars in this era worked. Whether we like it or not. :P
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Oct 14, 2017 17:28
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everdave posted:Like many I think I started reading this build with doubts but you’ve put your money where your mouth is and it is awesome so far. Just stay safe man!  , but it won't be the first one of those we've had either (like kevbarlas setting out to restore the van, but essentially building a new van from scratch using the rotted-out original as a template.) And hey, even if you decide not to do the full-speed race, ~$40k doesn't seem unreasonable to me for what is essentially a new-build classic car to your specs, and you obviously have the money and patience to make it happen.BitBasher posted:I agree with you, but this car puts me in a weird place after looking into it. I know I'm hosed crashing at 165. As for a less-safe car, well, you pays your money and takes your chances. The risk of horrible fiery death is part of the allure of those races, isn't it? Same itch that normal people scratch by riding a roller coaster, but more so? And the truly insane scratch by doing Pike's Peak, where in addition to all the risks of the SSC, adds "falling a couple thousand feet before the crash"?
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Oct 14, 2017 19:37
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Bad Angus! Bad!|
Okay, so let me just ask the straight question. In which circumstance would a driver and passenger be safest? 66 Chevelle with lap belt? 66 Chevelle with retrofit 3 point seatbelt in a reinforced mount? 66 Chevelle with retrofit 3 point seatbelt in a reinforced mount and a roll bar? 66 Chevelle with a roll bar and 5/6 point? 66 Chevelle with a roll cage and 5/6 point? Answer twice, once for a DD and once for track days with a helmet, They should be different answers I assume. A brief explanation of you answer would be awesome. Bonus question: Why doesn't the B pillar gently caress the driver in a car with no side airbags but a roll bar does? His head should be able to hit both of them the same, and padding the bar should be an option if you can pad the B pillar.
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Oct 14, 2017 19:56
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BitBasher posted:Hell I'm probably hosed at legal speed limits on the freeway in this car. For context, this was at parking lot speeds, and the Lexus that hit it didn't deploy its airbags.  (article/gallery if you click)
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Oct 14, 2017 20:06
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I would probably say ”66 Chevelle with a roll cage and 5/6 point” for both cases, but without a helmet it depends a bit how your cage has been built. In which case it might be ”66 Chevelle with a roll bar and 5/6 point” in some accidents. On the other hand side intrusion bars of a cage are very useful also without a helmet so I go with a well fitted and padded cage for both scenarios. If we were talking newish cars it would be different.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:11
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Raluek posted:For context, this was at parking lot speeds, and the Lexus that hit it didn't deploy its airbags.  Holy gently caress, my mother used to talk about the LeMans she had as her first car, it was her pride and joy until her brother borrowed it and wrecked it while speeding. I never really knew just how lucky my uncle is to be alive.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:14
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5/6 point harness is always going to be safer than a 3-point. 3-point is all that's required in consumer vehicles because it's easy to get on and off and doesn't restrain normal motion much. If the NHTSA required the 5/6 point harness, most people wouldn't wear it. High compliance with a lower standard is better overall safety.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:17
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Raluek posted:For context, this was at parking lot speeds, and the Lexus that hit it didn't deploy its airbags. I just literally did a shot in memory of that car. Also holy gently caress. I really want to know the impact speed.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:21
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Deteriorata posted:5/6 point harness is always going to be safer than a 3-point. 3-point is all that's required in consumer vehicles because it's easy to get on and off and doesn't restrain normal motion much. If the NHTSA required the 5/6 point harness, most people wouldn't wear it. High compliance with a lower standard is better overall safety. Doesn't a normal 3-point with a retractor dealie decelerate your torso slower than being solidly strapped into the seat? I wonder if that has any impact on safety when you're not using any other safety equipment. Probably harder to get whiplash with the harness, though.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:21
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Deteriorata posted:5/6 point harness is always going to be safer than a 3-point. 3-point is all that's required in consumer vehicles because it's easy to get on and off and doesn't restrain normal motion much. If the NHTSA required the 5/6 point harness, most people wouldn't wear it. High compliance with a lower standard is better overall safety. My forklift, a Toyota 8FGCU25 manufactured last year, has only a lap restraint and in the event of a rollover Toyota has helpfully included a few pictures of how you're supposed to somehow hold onto the steering wheel hard enough to avoid bashing your skull into the ground or ROPS.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:24
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BitBasher posted:Okay, so let me just ask the straight question. In which circumstance would a driver and passenger be safest? Raluek posted:For context, this was at parking lot speeds, and the Lexus that hit it didn't deploy its airbags.  What are three-year-old NASCAR chassis going for on ebay these days? Wheelbase is only 2" off, close enough to make it work. Sure, you've got no doors, but you can pretend to be the Duke boys. And you could eventually run in the unlimited class and probably survive.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:44
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I got into a discussion about this once. 5/6 point harness is safer than inertia reel if you 100% always have it racecar tight. Few people do. If not 3 point with inertia reel uses the lap belt to tighten the shoulder harness. Similarly, roll bars or cages are fine if you can guarantee that you won't hit it - speaking as someone who helped set up and run crash tests, yeah, stuff hits b-pillars. But most cage installations the cage is closer to the driver than a b-pillar would be. Define your acceptable risk, I guess.
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Oct 14, 2017 21:06
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Delivery McGee posted:
There's a guy who did that with a '69, although it looks like his pictures have been eaten by photobucket. http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=cfd95916069d2504082795bd4a3b04aa&t=46268&page=13
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Oct 14, 2017 21:06
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Okay, so assuming that you were going to spend 90% of the time DDing it, but would like to do more on occasion what would any of you go with? What would be your max speed with your setup?
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Oct 14, 2017 21:22
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Raluek posted:There's a guy who did that with a '69, although it looks like his pictures have been eaten by photobucket. Somebody set the course record at 219 and change in the Arizona version in an actual retired Cup car this year, hitting 243mph at some points. Makes me wonder how fast Cup cars actually go, y'know? 212 I think is the average lap record at Talladega, but they have to slow down for the turns and make up for it on the back straight, how fast are they going on the straight?
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Oct 14, 2017 21:44
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Delivery McGee posted:Somebody set the course record at 219 and change in the Arizona version in an actual retired Cup car this year, hitting 243mph at some points. Makes me wonder how fast Cup cars actually go, y'know? 212 I think is the average lap record at Talladega, but they have to slow down for the turns and make up for it on the back straight, how fast are they going on the straight? NASCAR forums dudes say around 220. Keep in mind they run restrictor plates at Talladega (and Daytona), the cars go way faster when they're allowed to run the same power as smaller tracks. quote:Rusty Wallace tested a car at Talladega Superspeedway without a restrictor plate in 2004, reaching a top speed of 228 mph (367 km/h) in the backstretch and a one-lap average of 221 mph (356 km/h). Which is more in line with the speed in that Arizona race, considering that on highways they have ample time to reach aerodynamic top speed.
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Oct 15, 2017 04:42
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