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computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Cat Mattress posted:


3. Unequal access to education is a big source of unequal opportunities which slows down the upward social mobility of minorities. So enforce equal access to education by outlawing tuition and private schools. Once all schools are public and all schools are paid for exclusively by taxpayer money, the wealthy will not have ways to make sure that their kids get to a good schools while poor kids go to bad schools.

Private schools become less and less of a thing the farther west you go. Instead you make a suburban community which "coincidentally" is 90% white people and is funded by local property taxes.

xthetenth posted:

You really need to fix how public schools are funded. Rich districts have much better public schools because they have much better funded public schools. Our public schools actually do well, it's just that the ones funded like Mexico's schools perform well compared to Mexico's schools.

This actually isn't true either. In Texas there's a "Robin Hood" plan where poor schools receive funding from richer schools, such that they actually get more funding per student. It doesn't overcome structural differences.

computer parts fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Nov 6, 2016

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Squalid
Nov 4, 2008

Sun Wu Kampf posted:

Black Lives Matter made it to the president's office. That's pretty good evidence that someone is, in fact, listening.

When I saw Bill Clinton get into an argument during a rally with two Black Lives Matters protesters on live television over the merits of his 1993 crime bill, that was the moment I realized they were legit. They've done a drat good job pushing the issue of criminal justice reform, although we'll see if they can keep up pressure once election season is over.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH

Cat Mattress posted:

Once all schools are public and all schools are paid for exclusively by taxpayer money, the wealthy will not have ways to make sure that their kids get to a good schools while poor kids go to bad schools. They'll be forced, for their own kids' sake, to be in favor of appropriate funding for schools and that will benefit everyone.

The wealthy has a lot of money but relatively little votes. Even nationally they mostly have to use their money as a brainwashing tool to convince poor people to vote in the wealthy's interest. All you're going to do is give lovely schools to everyone and you're going to punish the people who simply can not succeed with the public education model and need some kind of alternative education not certified for public schooling, like the learning disabled.

Your enemy is not the wealthy, it's the FYGM of childless people of many economic classes in all kinds of age groups and neighborhoods. I'm a good example. I vote against school bonds funding all the time. I don't bother to know the issues facing schools. I just know that my sexuality prevents me from reproducing and I'm not going to be an employer for a high skills company, so I don't give a poo poo and vote against piling on government debts for the sake of schools (although I will vote for school funding if it is paid for by taxing high incomes, like a California proposition this year that funds schools with the income taxes of the 1%.)

Mercrom
Jul 17, 2009
What the hell. I realize I live in a mythical fantasy land but all our schools are paid for with taxpayer money. Also I don't think "better education" s a hard sell anywhere except in territories held by ISIS.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Also private schools are "better" not because they're better funded or attract better teachers, but because they aren't full of poor people who have grown up in lovely home lives in lovely communities. When you eliminate poors and people who score too low it's really easy to make your school look like an academic power house. That or just straight up grade inflation.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH
My point is that you don't have to force wealthy taxpayers to have a stake in schools by banning private schools, instead you just soak wealthy people to fund schools and don't worry about losing their votes because they're proportionally a tiny bit of the electorate. Taxing the wealthy should be one of those no-brainer ideas like taxing cigarettes; unfortunately in America no-brained decisions are often the scene of massive battles.

It's a real California specific rant, but as they make their citizens frequently vote on important budget matters we've gotten statewide measures to take out huge bonds we'll be paying back forever for "better schools", and while they passed at first they just kept on coming and coming. Nowadays there's more opposition to them as California nearly went broke by running up debts (a fair amount of which passed at the ballot box) and people wonder the schools are still inadequate.

twerking on the railroad
Jun 23, 2007

Get on my level

computer parts posted:

Private schools become less and less of a thing the farther west you go. Instead you make a suburban community which "coincidentally" is 90% white people and is funded by local property taxes.

Are you sure you mean West and not Northeast?

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

twerking on the railroad posted:

Are you sure you mean West and not Northeast?

There's tons of private schools in the Northeast. That suburb thing is probably a thing there too though.

(In fact I know it is looking at the Pittsburgh metro area)

Indigofreak
Jul 30, 2013

:siren:BAD POSTER ALERT!:siren:

Put this loser on ignore immediately!

icantfindaname posted:

fixing school funding wouldn't really help that much, the root cause of urban poverty is that there are no jobs in post-deindustrialization and white flight urban cores. in theory it's possible better schools would cause a positive feedback and start the regeneration of those areas, but much more likely it will just allow a lot more people to flee those areas and find work elsewhere. rust belt cities that aren't gentrifying anytime soon will not be fixed by fixing the schools

Isn't gentrifying a bad thing? Doesn't it push low income people out of the area due to rising costs of living? I've never heard it talked about as a good thing. It's just an influx of people that are already middle or upper class moving to a low income area causing prices to rise. I've never heard it talked about as a low income area whose people then were able to claw their way to middle/upper class.

I might be reading too much into your comment. Are you saying there is something wrong with people fleeing jobless areas? If an area of a city or even a city, has lost it's jobs, what is the value to take jobs to the people if the people can leave? While I like the idea of fixing the area and providing jobs, I think it's rather cruel to make sure that the people there are stuck there until one day things turn around for them. Creating jobs is not that easy of a task where a politician can just walk through a neighborhood and suddenly everyone is employed. Giving people in jobless areas the means to find new jobs with a better education is a great answer. And if that means they leave the area they grew up in so be it. The people left may be slightly worse off with every person that leaves, but it seems a less cruel answer than making sure no one has the tools to leave a bad situation. If creating jobs for that area were an easy answer that could be done overnight I would see your point, but since it's hit or miss with a really high miss rate I disagree.

OwlFancier posted:

I, uh, am assuming you wouldn't go outright segregation and force black people to go to vocational schools while only having academic schools for white people...

Vocational courses are good for everybody. Because regardless of ethnicity, people should be allowed to pursue the things they're good at, and be given as many possible opportunities to figure out what they're good at and where their preference lies.

I am all for providing vocational schooling along side academic schools. Thinking back to all the people I knew in freshman college, and how few of them actually made it to graduation, some/quite a few, are just not motivated enough to see it through, or are just a bad fit for that sort of environment. I quick search, and I am seeing that the graduation rate of first time students is 60%. http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40 While I am certain a portion of those not completing their degrees did so due to cost, it certainly was not the case for all of them. So providing an alternative would be a benefit to make sure we are not failing those that do not like the college environment. There should be more options than 4 year degree, minimum wage, and military.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH

Indigofreak posted:

I might be reading too much into your comment. Are you saying there is something wrong with people fleeing jobless areas? If an area of a city or even a city, has lost it's jobs, what is the value to take jobs to the people if the people can leave? While I like the idea of fixing the area and providing jobs, I think it's rather cruel to make sure that the people there are stuck there until one day things turn around for them. Creating jobs is not that easy of a task where a politician can just walk through a neighborhood and suddenly everyone is employed. Giving people in jobless areas the means to find new jobs with a better education is a great answer. And if that means they leave the area they grew up in so be it. The people left may be slightly worse off with every person that leaves, but it seems a less cruel answer than making sure no one has the tools to leave a bad situation. If creating jobs for that area were an easy answer that could be done overnight I would see your point, but since it's hit or miss with a really high miss rate I disagree.

He's also missing something about white flight: the people fleeing urban cores aren't moving to whole new cities to abandon jobless areas, they're creating thriving suburbs on the fringe and still going to work somewhere, often still in the city. White flight is about lengthening your commute simply to not have your home among Those Elements. Sometimes that's fueled by raw unadulterated racism, sometimes it's fueled by other factors (if your city has serious drug/gang issues that government hasn't been able to crack, you won't want to make that city a nursery for your upcoming family.)

There is work, but factory workers etc aren't educated enough to do them, and education in those areas are bad because people aren't working in high income jobs. Educate them, and maybe somebody who already lives in Detroit can start a business instead of the city yelling at people at coastal cities to move their startups in and gentrify it up.

EugeneJ
Feb 5, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Craptacular! posted:

There is work, but factory workers etc aren't educated enough to do them, and education in those areas are bad because people aren't working in high income jobs. Educate them, and maybe somebody who already lives in Detroit can start a business instead of the city yelling at people at coastal cities to move their startups in and gentrify it up.

Remember that gentrification projects like the Atlanta BeltLine are spearheaded by Democrats and their corporate donors. Bulldozing black neighborhoods to put up another Starbucks is now a way of life for the DNC.

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!
Buglord

OwlFancier posted:

I don't see vocational education as low quality?

Oh so are you going to make a magic law that the kids in poor areas get very high quality vocational educations? Because if we can just mandate the education isn't allowed to be low quality why not just do that for regular old school?

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Because, as I said, academia is not suited for everyone and you can't run a society on academia alone, you need people who can do practical work, they are a vital part of a functioning society.

If people have aptitude for practical work they should be supported in that, and given all the resources they need to excel at it.

I really don't understand what you're arguing, that vocational skills are somehow inherently bad and also that poverty must necessarily mean poor education availability?

A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010
Owlfancier I think you grossly, grossly, GROSSLY overestimate the number of jobs that exist within the fields of vocational training. I remember the line of "just become a plumber" during 2008 being offered as a panacea to all those jobless graduates. Jobs involving skilled trades simply do not exist in large quantities in this country anymore.

I get that you want to offer options to every student, but that's a bad idea when one of the options offered is "get a degree that is only good for being employed in dying industries."
A general education is really important for all students because it remains the best way to prepare kids for life after school.

Also you get three tries to guess which ethnic group will get preferential access to the few jobs that are available in vocational industries :v:

A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Nov 7, 2016

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747
Vocational skills are good but they should not be considered to be enough.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Again job scarcity is enforced by the government, if there aren't enough jobs that is solved by getting the government to create them, you will never achieve stable, long term employment otherwise because every technological change will put people out of jobs and invalidate the skillset they're trained in.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id0cqNWZ50Y

Indigofreak
Jul 30, 2013

:siren:BAD POSTER ALERT!:siren:

Put this loser on ignore immediately!

Cat Mattress posted:

Vocational skills are good but they should not be considered to be enough.

Why aren't they enough? The lowest average the ones I listed have is 37k a year. And with the exception of one, they are all average to above average projected job growth.
That's all I could think of off the top of my head but I think it covers the major ones when people talk vocational skills. I am not sure why some of you are rejecting vocational schooling being offered along side 4 year degrees. There are millions of people in the USA that make comfortable livings with these jobs, and to act like only 4 year degrees give you what you need is bogus. There are many 4 year degrees that you will be worse off with than any of the vocational jobs I listed.


http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/electricians.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-pipefitters-and-steamfitters.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/carpenters.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/installation-maintenance-and-repair/automotive-service-technicians-and-mechanics.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers-and-brazers.htm

A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010

Indigofreak posted:

Why aren't they enough? The lowest average the ones I listed have is 37k a year. And with the exception of one, they are all average to above average projected job growth.
That's all I could think of off the top of my head but I think it covers the major ones when people talk vocational skills. I am not sure why some of you are rejecting vocational schooling being offered along side 4 year degrees. There are millions of people in the USA that make comfortable livings with these jobs, and to act like only 4 year degrees give you what you need is bogus. There are many 4 year degrees that you will be worse off with than any of the vocational jobs I listed.


http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/electricians.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-pipefitters-and-steamfitters.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/carpenters.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/installation-maintenance-and-repair/automotive-service-technicians-and-mechanics.htm
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers-and-brazers.htm

So are we talking vocational as a substitute to undergrad, or are we talking about letting kids leave K-12 education for vocational training? The former isn't that objectionable (although there is pretty strong evidence that working skilled trades wears down your body like nothing else) but the latter has the potential to leave young adults crippled in pursuing jobs in the broader market. Especially relevant since skilled trades experienced higher unemployment rates during the Great Recession (iirc, feel free not to take me at my word), not to mention the complete unwillingness to retrain workers whosoe field is replaced by automation or simply made obselete.

Indigofreak
Jul 30, 2013

:siren:BAD POSTER ALERT!:siren:

Put this loser on ignore immediately!

A big flaming stink posted:

So are we talking vocational as a substitute to undergrad, or are we talking about letting kids leave K-12 education for vocational training? The former isn't that objectionable (although there is pretty strong evidence that working skilled trades wears down your body like nothing else) but the latter has the potential to leave young adults crippled in pursuing jobs in the broader market. Especially relevant since skilled trades experienced higher unemployment rates during the Great Recession (iirc, feel free not to take me at my word), not to mention the complete unwillingness to retrain workers whosoe field is replaced by automation or simply made obselete.

K-12, you finish that, then you get choices of 4-year degrees or vocational skills. Whether that is subsidized or free wasn't what I was discussing. But I see it as a list of choices for you to proceed, then the government in some way helps move you down that path. I wouldn't see the benefit of allowing kids to drop out of highschool for a vocational skill. Was that discussed and I completely missed the post?

A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010
I'm pretty sure the vocational topic was broached by this:

MODS CURE JOKES posted:

I feel that the best way to make progress for minority communities is to open up more welcoming avenues towards recourse with the justice system, increase labor protections on the low end of the spectrum (minimum wage increases, benefit increases with more progressive means-testing phaseouts, etc), and maybe start a hardcore life skills program aimed at black kids in public schools. Something like, every step of the way in the education process, give kids a choice - do you want to continue with academia, or would you like to start looking into a trade? Give kids guaranteed scholarships/placement into community colleges or vocational programs. Give them laptops and phones with unlimited data plans through mobile tethering. Just... try to alleviate the material inequalities present in our society, while treating them how they want to be treated; that is to say, like white folks. Thoughts?

which posits trade skills as an alternative to k-12, which is a really dumb idea in itself and also phrased pretty awkwardly here.

e: call me crazy, but I believe Britain does allow children to drop of out school to pursue a job past the age of....16?

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

You finish school at 16, you can pursue whatever higher education you want, vocational qualifications have levels from secondary school qualification equivalents to masters/doctorate equivalents.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Nov 8, 2016

pgroce
Oct 24, 2002
The distinction between the majority of four-year degrees and vocational education isn't particularly qualitative; it's a class distinction, full stop.

The engineering, business and (most) computer science schools in universities are teaching trades. Law and medicine are trades, too. Though I admit they require more education than most others, there's nothing particularly lofty or academic about working for a personal injury or real estate firm or corporate practice like the vast majority of lawyers.

Nearly all bachelors' degrees and most masters and professional degrees are training people for plying a "skilled trade" that happens to lack class stigma. Few recipients of these degrees go on to participate in academic debate or research or public intellectual life.

If we genuinely think there's value to the "core curriculum" that most of these degree programs tout as a distinction from traditional trade schools, it should be taught to plumbers and HVAC technicians too. Why should they be denied the tools to participate fully in the intellectual and cultural life of the country?

The answer isn't more so-called vocational education, which is just a socially inferior educational track to funnel ostensibly inferior students into. A far better answer is the destigmatization of the trades (along with a dose of perspective about the "modern trades"), along with making the benefits of "university education"—a basic core of cultural literacy and class education that makes it easier to get jobs, loans, and many other things in our society—available to everyone, along with the primary and secondary education necessary to take advantage of it.

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747

Indigofreak posted:

Why aren't they enough?

I'm saying this completely independently of job prospects. IMO it's a good thing to learn to use both your brains and your hands.

on the left
Nov 2, 2013
I Am A Gigantic Piece Of Shit

Literally poo from a diseased human butt

pgroce posted:

The answer isn't more so-called vocational education, which is just a socially inferior educational track to funnel ostensibly inferior students into. A far better answer is the destigmatization of the trades (along with a dose of perspective about the "modern trades"), along with making the benefits of "university education"—a basic core of cultural literacy and class education that makes it easier to get jobs, loans, and many other things in our society—available to everyone, along with the primary and secondary education necessary to take advantage of it.

These sorts of initiatives always seem to just be a flat multiplier of pre-existing IQ/education. In other words, it won't address the gap and may in fact widen the gap.

This sounds like a nonsense rationalization, but the experience of free MOOCs is that even literally free education with no barriers other than a computer/phone disadvantages minorities somehow.

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!
Buglord

OwlFancier posted:

Because, as I said, academia is not suited for everyone and you can't run a society on academia alone, you need people who can do practical work, they are a vital part of a functioning society.

If people have aptitude for practical work they should be supported in that, and given all the resources they need to excel at it.

I really don't understand what you're arguing, that vocational skills are somehow inherently bad and also that poverty must necessarily mean poor education availability?

Okay, but again, your plan is to fund and staff this whole entire parallel education system for children. If these poor kids aren't getting a good education to begin and already are in a school district that is under funded and poorly staffed and unsafe and falling apart and failing, why are we going to be able to start a whole second school system with even MORE specialized teachers that will suddenly and magically be well funded and well preforming?

If we already can barely manage to teach kids to read because the school system is so bad why are you imagining your second entire parallel school system is going to be anything but bottom of the barrel trash quality? Is the idea that you believe that trades are so trivial that they'd be easier to teach than stuff like math or reading so we could just hired anyone and they'd do a good job?

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

OwlFancier posted:

Because, as I said, academia is not suited for everyone and you can't run a society on academia alone, you need people who can do practical work, they are a vital part of a functioning society.

If people have aptitude for practical work they should be supported in that, and given all the resources they need to excel at it.

I really don't understand what you're arguing, that vocational skills are somehow inherently bad and also that poverty must necessarily mean poor education availability?

You're assuming two things -

A) That people who do poorly in school (not just college, mind you, K-12 as well) do so because academia is not for them.

B) That people who are in a theoretical vocational track would actually do very well because it's more in line with their method of thinking.

While that does describe some people, it's reductive to apply that to the population at large who do poorly in school. It could just as easily be that people are not being taught very well from the offset (like not methods, just quality of teaching) and this cripples them later on down the line. This is more likely even, because poverty correlates very well with school performance.

The only way your plan really works in light of the above is if you believe people can do poorly in school and still do well in trades. Which is not very accurate - even tradesmen need to have some basic skills, like literacy, counting and measurements, etc.

computer parts fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Nov 8, 2016

suck my woke dick
Oct 10, 2012

:siren:I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!:siren:

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

on the left posted:

These sorts of initiatives always seem to just be a flat multiplier of pre-existing IQ/education. In other words, it won't address the gap and may in fact widen the gap.

This sounds like a nonsense rationalization, but the experience of free MOOCs is that even literally free education with no barriers other than a computer/phone disadvantages minorities somehow.

Well. Lower uptake and lower pre-existing knowledge are a disadvantage as the article points out, also water is wet. Higher education is way too late a stage to start fixing minority disadvantage.

pgroce
Oct 24, 2002

on the left posted:

These sorts of initiatives always seem to just be a flat multiplier of pre-existing IQ/education. In other words, it won't address the gap and may in fact widen the gap.

This sounds like a nonsense rationalization, but the experience of free MOOCs is that even literally free education with no barriers other than a computer/phone disadvantages minorities somehow.

The part of my post that you're quoting is the one where I say "single-stream our postsecondary education (no 'vocational' ghetto), and fix our primary and secondary schools." Which of those proposals do you suggest will amplify existing inequality?

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Because i literally live somewhere that has vocational courses available to school leavers and as an alternative for people who didn't get the schooling they wanted first go round.

The idea that you have to choose between good education and different kinds of education is farcical, governments have more than enough funding to pay for both and should.

Indigofreak
Jul 30, 2013

:siren:BAD POSTER ALERT!:siren:

Put this loser on ignore immediately!

pgroce posted:

The answer isn't more so-called vocational education, which is just a socially inferior educational track to funnel ostensibly inferior students into. A far better answer is the destigmatization of the trades (along with a dose of perspective about the "modern trades"), along with making the benefits of "university education"—a basic core of cultural literacy and class education that makes it easier to get jobs, loans, and many other things in our society—available to everyone, along with the primary and secondary education necessary to take advantage of it.

What exactly are you advocating here? Do you think that if we make everyone read Shakespeare and write a 5 page paper on it they suddenly qualify for a loan? The class distinction that exists between a vocational jobs most 4 year degree jobs is wage. They are support jobs for the 4 year degree and up jobs. It has nothing to do with all the classes in a 4 year degree that are there to round a person out. Where is the time going to come from in order to round everyone out? Are we to add to the k-12 system that already sees too many drop outs? Or do you propose that all vocational degrees now require all the fluff that is included in 4 year degrees? It seems like you want to add to the barrier of an advanced education by making students jump through more hoops(classes). If someone wants to take a vocational degree and elect to add all the extra liberal arts requirements on themselves, they certainly can now. But all it does is increase the time it takes to complete their education, and probably add to their debt. No one will look at their college transcripts and go, "Wow you took a college Theater class, you suddenly get a car loan."

It seems like you are making a correlation between liberal arts classes that most students sleep through and wage that just isn't there.

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Tiny Brontosaurus
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax

A big flaming stink posted:

Also you get three tries to guess which ethnic group will get preferential access to the few jobs that are available in vocational industries :v:

This is true and too often overlooked. The jobs we think of when we say "the trades" almost exclusively hire white men, usually relatives of people who already work those trades. "Just become a plumber, the world always needs plumbers" is all well and good, but how many female plumbers have you ever met in your life?

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