SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

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Peel: Dec 3, 2007

Jonny 290 posted:

just ignore race. talk about class. talk about income brackets, shut up about 'poor whites' and 'poor blacks' because that is dogwhistling anyways

trump's anti-hispanic bent was a cookie on top, meant to fill out the plate of "I'll Get Your Job At The Ball Bearing Factory Back From The Chinese" with a bit of "And If I Can't Do That, You Can Have His Job For Fuckin' Sure, You Start Monday". he had more of a contingency plan for poor people than hillary who said "Uh, i guess your kids can go to college cheaper"

i don't think you can put racism not as central to trump's appeal given how much time he spent on the wall and banning muslims and so on

but more importantly, a politics that ignores race is going to be completely impossible given the actual politics on the ground. the war over police brutality isn't going to quiet down now donald j. 'execute the central park five' trump is in charge at the head of a unified congress of vote-suppressors.

you can't say 'we need a movement of the dispossessed' while ignoring the really existing movements of the dispossessed.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:19

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 16:57

Phobophilia: Apr 26, 2008; by Hand Knit

anime was right posted:

hillary clinton was a greek tragedy waiting to happen.

i think she is a talented, intelligent person. i think she is (or was) very, very ambitious. i think hillary clinton is a one in a million kind of person. she managed to avoid actual scandal and survive dozens of fake ones slung at her every day.

but the republican machine worked. they dragged her through the mud for 20 years, and she thought, i'm doing it anyway, gently caress it. and i think every person on the planet should applaud her. she worked the washington game better than almost any other person in history. she tamed a thousand-headed hydra and was able to unleash it onto the world. but i think she played the game too hard in a couple of aspects:

first, in her attempt to rightfully avoid scandals with a private email server. gently caress what y'all say, i genuinely think she used the drat thing so a republican didn't huff over very typo she sent in internet greeting cards after the clinton administration. she had her own best interests in mind and i don't think she had any intention of loving anyone over with the drat thing. look at what they put her through and go "yes, i want these people reading every word, ever letter, every bit of data i send". but when the email server was discovered, i think this is where the divide really comes in. the republicans flung so much mud at her, that her secrecy and double-speak like a true old-school politican became her downfall. there was now an item, a tangibility to her secrecy. this was part one of "hillary clinton is the corrupt democratic machine". if i recall the server was discovered because of benghazi of all loving things. benghazi undermined her ability to avoid being benghazied.

i dont think people care about her emails. i think the emails remind everyone that hillary clinton was rightfully trying to hide poo poo, but there was an image drawn of her trying to do this already as a negative. it fit. the narrative stuck. the word emails makes people think she's hiding something. she was a snake-tongued washington crook in the eyes of many.

second, wall street.

after citizens united (and many other landmark cases), and after the deregulation of wall st, taking in big bucks matters to get elected. this is the perceived washington game. she had to take in millions upon millions of dollars to compete. this was how things were supposed to be done, thought everyone. after all, money wins small elections and always has. money buys you ads. money gets you people to upvote and downvote poo poo on reddit for fucks sake. money is the answer. more money, more control of the media. you get more ads, more ground game, more everything. more money makes for a better campaign because it affords you more opportunities than anyone else. the fact is, she gave into the dark side here and took bribes from wall st because they were going to fund her campaign. they wanted to buy her and make her enact pro bank policies. she went with 'hate the game not the player' because how the gently caress else are you going to win a presidential goddamn election? we have not had many campaigns of this scale, so this seemed like the obvious answer.

but wall street collapsed the economy. her allies caused the collapse. i think most idiots know that (not the super crazy ones, but the ones that lost her the election here). she allied with the enemy and she was corrupt. again, strike 2 for washington.

and i do think bernie sanders exposed this. if this was politics as usual and she had no opponent, tbh, i think she would have seen more scandals being flung at her, but she wouldn't have had such an air of corruption. i do not think this cost her the election, but i think it gave her another handicap to overcome.

third, more obama.

obama loving rules. hes a great dude. real charmer. good with the kids. obama is a one in a billion person. i hesitate to say this, but obama was a loving fluke. he had empty campaign promises and no baggage so everyone could project onto him. he motivated millenials because he was cool. he motivated independents because the republicans were in charge and all the jobs went away. but obama, somehow evaded being strongly tied to wall street. probably because he didn't line his pockets with speech money, i guess. but he had his turn, and white people in the boonies are still hosed. all the job growth went to cities because corporations are too large and so theres no way for local branches to just prop up and compete on the national or global market. small business are stifled and could not create jobs because obama let big corporations run the show.

and this is where the branch breaks for that 10-20% of white people that threw the brick in the window.

washington didnt fix their probems after all the hope-y change-y. hillary wanted to not only do business as usual, but she had the baggage obama didn't with big money and washington corruption. she wanted to break the glass ceiling, and white dudes, instead, wanted to drop the brick through it from above.

she tried to win, but look at all of that. barely any of it was her fault (at least to her team), imo. when you look at this from an omnisesent poitn of view, of course that wouldn't work out. but look at it through her eyes. she made the right calls.

but there were two more flaws, and they were 100% her fault and even with all of that above, she could have salvaged the election.

1) her campaign had no clear idea or voice, and her previous theme harmed her.

"im with her" is a terrible slogan. not because its bad to be with her. nah, she's a pretty alright person with a couple things i dont like attached to her ticket. but it alienated all of the white dudes who got called sexist and they probably were, but they probably tried to improve and weren't total monsters. she made it more about being a woman than being a good politician at first, and this made for a wishy-washy message that went into later stages of the general.

"stronger together" is a loving weak slogan. i see no goal. i see no idea for the future other than social policy. how does this help a white dude? here, let me look at the last two winning slogans.

"yes we can", yes we can what? who gives a poo poo. yes we can ride unicorns. you can project what this means for you. its forward leaning and says something you want will happen, even if that thing is rainbows and elves.

"forward" again, forward to what direction? towards whatever the gently caress i want! its goal oriented. it tells me something good is coming.

hillarys slogans, and overal campaign theme, sold me no good feelings that i could make up for myself.

"make america great again" this is powered entirely by nostalgia, but gently caress, it works. nostalgia is a filter and you can make up whatever good feelings it brings you. remember when you played sonic the hedgehog after school? yeah, we're back to geneis sonic the hedgehog games or whatever. who gives a poo poo. people are morons and they want to feel good about made up things that won't come to them. we want something and we don't know what that is but you better promise us the thing we goddamn want.

hillary did not sell us anything we wanted. she sold us...... not donald j trump, who was selling a shitload of white people: a brick, nostalgia, and racism. and it had just enough support to loving win.

2) she is not charismatic. she is a wonk. she has a fake laugh and a faker smile. obama can pull this off so well, trump, despite being a buffoon, is a chaotic ball of orange digits and lip-like crevices all forming odd shapes, but they're his loving shapes. hillary is a baddass grandma and she tried to be the cool and collected ubermensch and could not pull it off. now, there's argument here to be made, if she really was genuine, or if her attempts to appear like this were to thread the needle of being a woman? gently caress if i know, but she was not herself. she was not her own person. she was a robot like romney, uncomfortable in her own skin and hell, the republicans probably did that to her. its super unfair that she can't yell like bernie, it's super unfair that she can't make self-depreciating jokes, or like a zillion other things. but she did not appear like a genuine person and that harmed the hell out of her. imo she could have gotten better acting lessons or something, but she didnt pull this off at all. obama was charismatic and fun and even if i disagree with him on a million things, he can tell a loving joke better than any other politician on the planet and thats part of why people voted for him. trump is a buffoon, but he is his own special kind of buffoon and people ate it up.

3) i had no idea what she wanted to do. seriously! what the gently caress! donald trump wanted to build a wall. he wanted to export mexicans and import nothing because gently caress global trade. he wanted to give japan nukes or something. poo poo, he has ten thousand policy positions that are concise and soundbyte-y. because he said literally everything ever, that gave people room to project their own policies onto him too. like, jfc. anyway, the point is, i can say like ten things off the top of my head that donald trump would do. hillary clinton would make college less not bad. thats about all i can think of that she can offer. obama offered "no politics as usual/unifted washington" "close guantanamo" and he promised every person in the country a 500 dollar check because the economy loving bombed.

hillary ran a wishy-washy campaign with zero energy and rand on pragmatism and more of the same and suffered for it. she needed a clear vision and a few bombshell promises. she tried to play it cool and it blew up in her hands because people may not want lies, but they want an extension of the truth. hillary promised them the truth at absolute best. and that is a bad marketing strategy. oversell and then when you don't deliver, say you delivered anyway. people are goddamn idiots and marketing works.

so my takeaway is: hillary clinton made some contextually correct choices, and ran a bad campaign as a reasonabley bland candidate. that is why she lost. she is not a bad person. she is super loving talented, but i will tell you a secret:

she would have probably been a great president, but she is bombed the goddamn interview when asked about gasp on her resume. all while donald trump lied in big flashy bulletpoints.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:18

DEEP STATE PLOT: Aug 13, 2008; Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!

anime was right posted:

obamacare is better than not obamacare, straight up.

yeah it was very very flawed and needed loads of work but it was way better than what we had. losing it will not help make healthcare better fast, it will accomplish literally the opposite. going back to square 1 does not benefit anyone.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:20

Thoguh: Nov 8, 2002; College Slice

Adventure Pigeon posted:

On another note, why didn't she control outlets that were making GBS threads all over Sanders supporters or at least tell them they weren't helping? Did she think that letting them run the Bernie Bros meme would kill that movement faster while not saying anything herself would protect her from backlash? Or did she genuinely not have any control?

It was her surrogates, especially David Brock, that created and pushed the Bernie Bro thing. She didn't try to stop it because it was part of her campaign.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:19

Guy DeBorgore: Apr 6, 1994; Catnip is the opiate of the masses; Soiled Meat

comedyblissoption posted:

hillary didnt lose b/c of misogyny

i can't stand this loving thinking. i've heard it multiple times today.

she lost b/c she's a terrible loving status quo warhawk candidate who is historically unlikeable and represents the worst aspects of american politics

of course its pure coincidence that the first female presidential candidate was also "historically unlikeable"

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:20

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

anime was right posted:

its part of the reason she lost and why she made some of the choices she did. and i think it affected her career much more than it did anyone at the voting booth imo.

but it was still a handicap, and without it she probably coulda won. not because a bunch of dudes are voting against a woman, but because it informed and affected literally every decision she made in her entire life.

she could have won by being a better candidate too, tho.

no she is uniquely terrible. a man that has done the things she has done would be equally villified. trying to paint this as misogyny is ridiculous.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:20

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Jonny 290 posted:

just ignore race. talk about class. talk about income brackets, shut up about 'poor whites' and 'poor blacks' because that is dogwhistling anyways

trump's anti-hispanic bent was a cookie on top, meant to fill out the plate of "I'll Get Your Job At The Ball Bearing Factory Back From The Chinese" with a bit of "And If I Can't Do That, You Can Have His Job For Fuckin' Sure, You Start Monday". he had more of a contingency plan for poor people than hillary who said "Uh, i guess your kids can go to college cheaper"

Yeah, but Bernie's gently caress up was ignoring the question of race as it pertained to class politics. Blacks automatically assume any ambitious social welfare program will screw them over because to date all ambitious social welfare programs have screwed them over. So when Bernie talked about class all they heard was 'white people'. Plus they had no loving clue who this old white jew from Vermont was making all these big promises, while they all new Clinton as a queen of retail politics.

Gotta have specific minority planks in your class remedy platform from the start. Bernie didn't know, and Clinton seized on that poo poo.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:19

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Guy DeBorgore posted:

IIRC with the subsidies, poor and middle-income people pay much less under PPACA than they would've beforehand, and that would still be true after the price hikes this year. it's just that it has a high sticker price.

this. my GF's family is hosed now healthcare wise. sure PPACA could have been better, but they got basic healthcare cheaper and couldnt get kicked off. plus i turn 26 this coming January and i have medical poo poo i was born with. I am hosed.

As other people have said in the old thread. i also blame the lefts obsession super identity politics(feelings are all that matters, you racist/sexits/homophobo/transphobe/etc).

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:20

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

if misogyny is your primary takeaway for why clinton has lost you are not loving paying attention

some of the criticisms of clinton are actually quite legitimate! stop plugging your ears and screaming la la la whenever someone criticizes your abuela. there's a reason why people loving hate her guts and it's not because she's a woman.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:21

Peel: Dec 3, 2007

comedyblissoption posted:

hillary didnt lose b/c of misogyny

i can't stand this loving thinking. i've heard it multiple times today.

she lost b/c she's a terrible loving status quo warhawk candidate who is historically unlikeable and represents the worst aspects of american politics

there doesn't need to be a single reason she lost

its possible that clinton wins in the universe where everything is the same but she's a man, and the universe where american whites are less racist, and the universe where she's an economic populist, and the universe where everything was the same just with more resources in the midwest, and the universe where the pussy tape dropped ten days before the election rather than a month out

and tbh i don't want to tell women not to lament misogyny just after the first major female candidate is beaten by a slavering rapist

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:24

mrmcd: Feb 22, 2003; Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

Before the Abuela thing was a hilarious meme (I'm guilty of this too) it should've loving terrified everyone. It's was so forced and painful to watch.

Even if sexist people exist and your opposition lied about you for 20 loving years, you can't loving govern if you can't make people like you and win a election.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:24

Phobophilia: Apr 26, 2008; by Hand Knit

Adventure Pigeon posted:

The only democratic revival that would be worth anything would be one that rekindles class consciousness.

On another note, why didn't she control outlets that were making GBS threads all over Sanders supporters or at least tell them they weren't helping? Did she think that letting them run the Bernie Bros meme would kill that movement faster while not saying anything herself would protect her from backlash? Or did she genuinely not have any control?

good old fashioned left wing infighting. im guilty of that to some extent, but my ire was focused on pissing on the ~10% of bernie-or-busters, but realising that it depress the 30% that was sorta-kinda pro-clinton but ended not having the energy to vote

because i assumed they would loving vote jfc

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:25

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Venom Snake posted:

Dude when Obamacare is gone a lot of people are going to die straight up. One of my closest friends is only alive today because of it. Do not poo poo talk it.

All the work Iv done is nothing but piss in the wind If I give up.

This is the thing. ACA is literally life or death to some people.

At the same time ACA is a massive burden on others (they would elect not to have health insurance at all and not pay the high premiums, any medical emergency is gonna bankrupt em anyways, lovely bronze plan or no, might as well save the $400 a month or whatever)

Hillary chose to play up the fears of the life or death people while completely dismissing the concerns of the massive financial burden people.

Turns out the financial burden people were a lot of poor rural whites who didn't like being brushed aside.

E: Now everyone is probably going to lose ACA because they couldnt acknowledge the ACA was smothering some people and needed a massive overhaul.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:25

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Tatsuta Age posted:

didn't read the thread but gently caress you venom snake

v rude. venom snake has incremented towards leftism, while you refuse to pragmatically embrace the future

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:26

CalvinCoolidge: Dec 27, 2008

Plank Walker posted:

The fact that any polls had trump leading on "the economy" should be the focus

Probably because when asked about her economic policy at the debate she just said "Solar" which, I mean, come on. Why would anyone want to emulate Spain?

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:25

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

anime was right posted:

hillary clinton was a greek tragedy waiting to happen.

i think she is a talented, intelligent person. i think she is (or was) very, very ambitious. i think hillary clinton is a one in a million kind of person. she managed to avoid actual scandal and survive dozens of fake ones slung at her every day.

but the republican machine worked. they dragged her through the mud for 20 years, and she thought, i'm doing it anyway, gently caress it. and i think every person on the planet should applaud her. she worked the washington game better than almost any other person in history. she tamed a thousand-headed hydra and was able to unleash it onto the world. but i think she played the game too hard in a couple of aspects:

first, in her attempt to rightfully avoid scandals with a private email server. gently caress what y'all say, i genuinely think she used the drat thing so a republican didn't huff over very typo she sent in internet greeting cards after the clinton administration. she had her own best interests in mind and i don't think she had any intention of loving anyone over with the drat thing. look at what they put her through and go "yes, i want these people reading every word, ever letter, every bit of data i send". but when the email server was discovered, i think this is where the divide really comes in. the republicans flung so much mud at her, that her secrecy and double-speak like a true old-school politican became her downfall. there was now an item, a tangibility to her secrecy. this was part one of "hillary clinton is the corrupt democratic machine". if i recall the server was discovered because of benghazi of all loving things. benghazi undermined her ability to avoid being benghazied.

i dont think people care about her emails. i think the emails remind everyone that hillary clinton was rightfully trying to hide poo poo, but there was an image drawn of her trying to do this already as a negative. it fit. the narrative stuck. the word emails makes people think she's hiding something. she was a snake-tongued washington crook in the eyes of many.

second, wall street.

after citizens united (and many other landmark cases), and after the deregulation of wall st, taking in big bucks matters to get elected. this is the perceived washington game. she had to take in millions upon millions of dollars to compete. this was how things were supposed to be done, thought everyone. after all, money wins small elections and always has. money buys you ads. money gets you people to upvote and downvote poo poo on reddit for fucks sake. money is the answer. more money, more control of the media. you get more ads, more ground game, more everything. more money makes for a better campaign because it affords you more opportunities than anyone else. the fact is, she gave into the dark side here and took bribes from wall st because they were going to fund her campaign. they wanted to buy her and make her enact pro bank policies. she went with 'hate the game not the player' because how the gently caress else are you going to win a presidential goddamn election? we have not had many campaigns of this scale, so this seemed like the obvious answer.

but wall street collapsed the economy. her allies caused the collapse. i think most idiots know that (not the super crazy ones, but the ones that lost her the election here). she allied with the enemy and she was corrupt. again, strike 2 for washington.

and i do think bernie sanders exposed this. if this was politics as usual and she had no opponent, tbh, i think she would have seen more scandals being flung at her, but she wouldn't have had such an air of corruption. i do not think this cost her the election, but i think it gave her another handicap to overcome.

third, more obama.

obama loving rules. hes a great dude. real charmer. good with the kids. obama is a one in a billion person. i hesitate to say this, but obama was a loving fluke. he had empty campaign promises and no baggage so everyone could project onto him. he motivated millenials because he was cool. he motivated independents because the republicans were in charge and all the jobs went away. but obama, somehow evaded being strongly tied to wall street. probably because he didn't line his pockets with speech money, i guess. but he had his turn, and white people in the boonies are still hosed. all the job growth went to cities because corporations are too large and so theres no way for local branches to just prop up and compete on the national or global market. small business are stifled and could not create jobs because obama let big corporations run the show.

and this is where the branch breaks for that 10-20% of white people that threw the brick in the window.

washington didnt fix their probems after all the hope-y change-y. hillary wanted to not only do business as usual, but she had the baggage obama didn't with big money and washington corruption. she wanted to break the glass ceiling, and white dudes, instead, wanted to drop the brick through it from above.

she tried to win, but look at all of that. barely any of it was her fault (at least to her team), imo. when you look at this from an omnisesent poitn of view, of course that wouldn't work out. but look at it through her eyes. she made the right calls.

but there were two more flaws, and they were 100% her fault and even with all of that above, she could have salvaged the election.

1) her campaign had no clear idea or voice, and her previous theme harmed her.

"im with her" is a terrible slogan. not because its bad to be with her. nah, she's a pretty alright person with a couple things i dont like attached to her ticket. but it alienated all of the white dudes who got called sexist and they probably were, but they probably tried to improve and weren't total monsters. she made it more about being a woman than being a good politician at first, and this made for a wishy-washy message that went into later stages of the general.

"stronger together" is a loving weak slogan. i see no goal. i see no idea for the future other than social policy. how does this help a white dude? here, let me look at the last two winning slogans.

"yes we can", yes we can what? who gives a poo poo. yes we can ride unicorns. you can project what this means for you. its forward leaning and says something you want will happen, even if that thing is rainbows and elves.

"forward" again, forward to what direction? towards whatever the gently caress i want! its goal oriented. it tells me something good is coming.

hillarys slogans, and overal campaign theme, sold me no good feelings that i could make up for myself.

"make america great again" this is powered entirely by nostalgia, but gently caress, it works. nostalgia is a filter and you can make up whatever good feelings it brings you. remember when you played sonic the hedgehog after school? yeah, we're back to geneis sonic the hedgehog games or whatever. who gives a poo poo. people are morons and they want to feel good about made up things that won't come to them. we want something and we don't know what that is but you better promise us the thing we goddamn want.

hillary did not sell us anything we wanted. she sold us...... not donald j trump, who was selling a shitload of white people: a brick, nostalgia, and racism. and it had just enough support to loving win.

2) she is not charismatic. she is a wonk. she has a fake laugh and a faker smile. obama can pull this off so well, trump, despite being a buffoon, is a chaotic ball of orange digits and lip-like crevices all forming odd shapes, but they're his loving shapes. hillary is a baddass grandma and she tried to be the cool and collected ubermensch and could not pull it off. now, there's argument here to be made, if she really was genuine, or if her attempts to appear like this were to thread the needle of being a woman? gently caress if i know, but she was not herself. she was not her own person. she was a robot like romney, uncomfortable in her own skin and hell, the republicans probably did that to her. its super unfair that she can't yell like bernie, it's super unfair that she can't make self-depreciating jokes, or like a zillion other things. but she did not appear like a genuine person and that harmed the hell out of her. imo she could have gotten better acting lessons or something, but she didnt pull this off at all. obama was charismatic and fun and even if i disagree with him on a million things, he can tell a loving joke better than any other politician on the planet and thats part of why people voted for him. trump is a buffoon, but he is his own special kind of buffoon and people ate it up.

3) i had no idea what she wanted to do. seriously! what the gently caress! donald trump wanted to build a wall. he wanted to export mexicans and import nothing because gently caress global trade. he wanted to give japan nukes or something. poo poo, he has ten thousand policy positions that are concise and soundbyte-y. because he said literally everything ever, that gave people room to project their own policies onto him too. like, jfc. anyway, the point is, i can say like ten things off the top of my head that donald trump would do. hillary clinton would make college less not bad. thats about all i can think of that she can offer. obama offered "no politics as usual/unifted washington" "close guantanamo" and he promised every person in the country a 500 dollar check because the economy loving bombed.

hillary ran a wishy-washy campaign with zero energy and rand on pragmatism and more of the same and suffered for it. she needed a clear vision and a few bombshell promises. she tried to play it cool and it blew up in her hands because people may not want lies, but they want an extension of the truth. hillary promised them the truth at absolute best. and that is a bad marketing strategy. oversell and then when you don't deliver, say you delivered anyway. people are goddamn idiots and marketing works.

so my takeaway is: hillary clinton made some contextually correct choices, and ran a bad campaign as a reasonabley bland candidate. that is why she lost. she is not a bad person. she is super loving talented, but i will tell you a secret:

she would have probably been a great president, but she is bombed the goddamn interview when asked about gasp on her resume. all while donald trump lied in big flashy bulletpoints.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:27

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:27

Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3: Nov 15, 2003

Cubey posted:

yeah it was very very flawed and needed loads of work but it was way better than what we had. losing it will not help make healthcare better fast, it will accomplish literally the opposite. going back to square 1 does not benefit anyone.

Fortunately it can't just be repealed since the health industry requires it to function. It has to be replaced with something comprehensive. My guess is the republicans won't bother with that, so in the end it will be tweaked.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:27

Jonny 290: May 5, 2005; [ASK] me about OS/2 Warp

Not a Step posted:

Yeah, but Bernie's gently caress up was ignoring the question of race as it pertained to class politics. Blacks automatically assume any ambitious social welfare program will screw them over because to date all ambitious social welfare programs have screwed them over. So when Bernie talked about class all they heard was 'white people'. Plus they had no loving clue who this old white jew from Vermont was making all these big promises, while they all new Clinton as a queen of retail politics.

Gotta have specific minority planks in your class remedy platform from the start. Bernie didn't know, and Clinton seized on that poo poo.

OK after thinking, i'm with this. One size does not fit all and a single mom of 3 in the bronx has a vastly different set of challenges than a family in Erie with a breadwinner that's on disability from the plant. i guess it's a thin line to walk between listening and patronizing/assuming

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:28

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

Peel posted:

there doesn't need to be a single reason she lost

yup, this is my argument.

i think it affected many of the (in hindsight, bad) choices she made because people were more antagonistic against her because she was a woman. it affected how she could and could not act, or at least forced her to make assumptions about how she could or could not act, and limited her ability to take risks.

but she was still buddies with wall street, she still marketed herself poorly, she was still boring, and she was still the status quo when millions of people now have a lower quality of life than they did ten-twenty years ago and nothing changed under the new guy with the new ideas.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:29

Jedi Knight Luigi: Jul 13, 2009

comedyblissoption posted:

if misogyny is your primary takeaway for why clinton has lost you are not loving paying attention

some of the criticisms of clinton are actually quite legitimate! stop plugging your ears and screaming la la la whenever someone criticizes your abuela. there's a reason why people loving hate her guts and it's not because she's a woman.

P much this. My ultra-conservative younger brother (at least compared to me; I've loved Bernie since before he ran) posted this after her concession speech:

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:30

DEEP STATE PLOT: Aug 13, 2008; Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!

Not a Step posted:

Yeah, but Bernie's gently caress up was ignoring the question of race as it pertained to class politics. Blacks automatically assume any ambitious social welfare program will screw them over because to date all ambitious social welfare programs have screwed them over. So when Bernie talked about class all they heard was 'white people'. Plus they had no loving clue who this old white jew from Vermont was making all these big promises, while they all new Clinton as a queen of retail politics.

Gotta have specific minority planks in your class remedy platform from the start. Bernie didn't know, and Clinton seized on that poo poo.

strictly speaking yes, this is why he lost the primary. it would not have lost him the general.

bernie did make missteps (i still really hate jeff weaver) but he was right from day 1 and he would have won this poo poo.

LegoPirateNinja posted:

Fortunately it can't just be repealed since the health industry requires it to function. It has to be replaced with something comprehensive. My guess is the republicans won't bother with that, so in the end it will be tweaked.

i really fuckin hope you are right.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:29

Tatsuta Age: Apr 21, 2005; so good at being in trouble

Condiv posted:

v rude. venom snake has incremented towards leftism, while you refuse to pragmatically embrace the future

I voted for bernie in the primary so

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:34

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

The Kingfish posted:

I just realized that Bernie and Warren are the leaders of the party now.

E: And bernie more so than warren I would expect.

What about Obama??

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:33

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

obama's going to leave washington DC for a silicon valley VC and never look back

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:34

Oh Snapple!: Dec 27, 2005

Venom Snake posted:

Dude when Obamacare is gone a lot of people are going to die straight up. One of my closest friends is only alive today because of it. Do not poo poo talk it.

That post is entirely within the context of what Not a Step essentially mentioned: the fight between Shills and Bernie folks in here over it, in which Bernie and his supporters were painted as heartless fucks who just wanted it gone, period. One of the exchanges that has always stuck with me was fishmech telling a dude whose wife actually ended up losing her insurance due to the ACA that not only did he not "give a poo poo" about the wife's "weird edge case" which had left her in constant pain (because more people have insurance, and that's all that matters), but that the poster was probably lying to begin with. That's loving horrible. How the gently caress does anyone who tries to identify as a progressive say something like that (besides "fishmech")? And yet it was said, and it was an attitude that was not limited just to him. All because Bernie ran with the ACA's issues as something in desperate need of fixing to make it a system that was good instead of simply having a few good things attached.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:35

Cinnamon Bear: Aug 29, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

zen death robot posted:

Al Franken 2020

How about we try someone other than a washed up unfunny has-been firmly planted in the establishment?

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:35

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Jedi Knight Luigi posted:

P much this. My ultra-conservative younger brother (at least compared to me; I've loved Bernie since before he ran) posted this after her concession speech:

_wikileaks

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:37

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

slave to my cravings posted:

Socialism wasn't going to sell but any sort of populist anti-establishment message would have been a lot better than none.

People vote for "gently caress the rich elite assholes who are loving us!" without reading too deep in the how. Ergo Trump.

Socialism would sell just fine if wrapped appropriately.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:36

the bitcoin of weed: Nov 1, 2014

Flubby posted:

I know this is off-topic and probably inflammatory, but I think you have to give credit to Venom. He was around last night, through all that poo poo. Where is Epic High Five and A Winner Is Jew and about five other turd burglars that laughed down at anyone that called out Hillary as being a weak candidate? Rats off a sinking ship, gone before the waters had even gotten rough, and probably trying to duck their ban. poo poo on and ridicule anyone not in their group think bubble and when the poo poo hits the fan, poof. Gone.

i hope they gently caress off forever because the Hill Gang were collectively the most awful and insufferable posters here

e: to clarify VS is cool and i hope he sticks around

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:37

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

Vox Nihili posted:

What about Obama??

Thanks, Obama.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:37

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Cubey posted:

strictly speaking yes, this is why he lost the primary. it would not have lost him the general.

bernie did make missteps (i still really hate jeff weaver) but he was right from day 1 and he would have won this poo poo.

i really fuckin hope you are right.

Oh yeah, Im 100% on the Bernie Bus and was from the start. Bernie would have been extremely competitive and could have delivered the Rust Belt on par with Obama (if not more), although probably at the cost of turnout in the coastal cities which who the gently caress even cares they always go blue anyways.

But Bernie got dismantled by a more experienced opponent labeling his supporters as sexists and racists, his policies as neglecting blacks and impossible (while providing jack poo poo of her own), and his record as fake and stolen (lol Bruce Rappaport was a loving thing this election, just lol forever at what Hillary won't stoop to). He also made plenty of his own mistakes out of inexperience that Hillary capitalized on, and ultimately nobody knew who he was because he started his national campaign way too late and the media was not on his side.

If there had been a DNC dedicated to helping all candidates succeed and if Clinton hadnt been, well, Clinton I think we could have avoided this darkest timeline.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:38

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Oh Snapple! posted:

That post is entirely within the context of what Not a Step essentially mentioned: the fight between Shills and Bernie folks in here over it, in which Bernie and his supporters were painted as heartless fucks who just wanted it gone, period. One of the exchanges that has always stuck with me was fishmech telling a dude whose wife actually ended up losing her insurance due to the ACA that not only did he not "give a poo poo" about the wife's "weird edge case" which had left her in constant pain (because more people have insurance, and that's all that matters), but that the poster was probably lying to begin with. That's loving horrible. How the gently caress does anyone who tries to identify as a progressive say something like that (besides "fishmech")? And yet it was said, and it was an attitude that was not limited just to him. All because Bernie ran with the ACA's issues as something in desperate need of fixing to make it a system that was good instead of simply having a few good things attached.

a lot of the bernie supporters were openly being accelerationist assholes after he lost, hence why they were known for wanting to tear everything down because they didn't get 100% of what they wanted immediately

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:38

Thundercracker: Jun 25, 2004; Proudly serving the Ruinous Powers since as a veteran of the long war.; College Slice

Venom Snake, I hope you're right the DNC will bend the knee to Sanders. I was basically a establishment backer (New York Yuppie liberal that donated every four years) my entire life, and holy poo poo, I want to run the Clinton's out of the country right now.

In all honesty, I mocked Sander's chances during the primaries, but he was absolutely right about everything so gently caress me. I'm not really alone either. There's just a complete collapse in faith in the DNC amongst the liberal professionals I know, and they backed Clinton 100% until the moment everyone realized they were taken for a ride.

If the Sanders faction makes a play for New York, DO NOT loving block him. You're risking open war with your ur-base.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:38

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

Nuclearmonkee posted:

People vote for "gently caress the rich elite assholes who are loving us!" without reading too deep in the how. Ergo Trump.

Socialism would sell just fine if wrapped appropriately.

Call it Americanism.

No seriously.

Call it Americanism.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:38

HannibalBarca: Sep 11, 2016; History shows, again and again, how nature points out the folly of man.

Not a Step posted:

If there had been a DNC dedicated to helping all candidates succeed and if Clinton hadnt been, well, Clinton I think we could have avoided this darkest timeline.

The DNC's idiotic "clearing the bench" operation for Clinton is gonna go down as one of the worst mistakes in American political history. The only credible opponent to Hillary was Sanders; the rest of them were mediocrities and unknowns like O'Malley and Chafee. I can't imagine that a competitive primary between Clinton, Biden, Sanders, maybe Warren or Klobuchar or Gilibrand or whoever else, would not have produced a stronger general election candidate. Wasserman-Schulz was beyond incompetent and Obama should have fired her when he had the chance, costs be damned.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:41

DEEP STATE PLOT: Aug 13, 2008; Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!

Yinlock posted:

a lot of the bernie supporters were openly being accelerationist assholes after he lost, hence why they were known for wanting to tear everything down because they didn't get 100% of what they wanted immediately

see i was an accelerationist rear end in a top hat before he lost

after it was clear that bernie was gonna lose and trump was gonna be the gop cadnidate i every quickly switched my tune and supported hillary because the actual reality of a trump accelerationist universe was too terrifying

well here we are now

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:40

Oh Snapple!: Dec 27, 2005

Yinlock posted:

a lot of the bernie supporters were openly being accelerationist assholes after he lost, hence why they were known for wanting to tear everything down because they didn't get 100% of what they wanted immediately

oh loving please. this was well before he lost

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:40

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Yinlock posted:

a lot of the bernie supporters were openly being accelerationist assholes after he lost, hence why they were known for wanting to tear everything down because they didn't get 100% of what they wanted immediately

They were going to get 0% of what they wanted at all. I wonder if that ever became a pattern...

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:41

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 25, 2024 16:57

Lastgirl: Sep 7, 1997; Good Morning!
Sunday Morning!

KiteAuraan posted:

present a unified populist vision to people moving forward. highlight that it is the forces of global capitalism that have failed them, that the jobs they want, high paying manufacturing jobs, are never coming back, that unless they accept a hellfucked environment and $1.00 a day wages they will never have a textile factory in south carolina again. highlight how Trump is a loving liar, how he promised them something he can't deliver, how he is NOT their voice, he just lies to them for power and prestige. hammer hard on how he and the republicans are failing them. use the mass support for minimum wage increases (an increase to $12 an hour passed in loving arizona, goddamn) to highlight how the republicans want to take that away from them, and they'll have to fight with vote and union to stop them. show them that Trump is the very jetsetting global elite that is loving them and that it is not the workers of the developing world who are ruining them, those are just poor souls even more hosed by the elite than they. give them data and info in a digestible form about the Koch brothers, the capitalists, the bankers and multinational global elites, who live in the united states, but are not their saviors or their allies. tell them that coal is dead globally, the price is never going to rise, that you may have work but it will be for below-poverty wages with little to no safety. offer them hope from that in government programs to retrain, and if they can't retrain, a GMI to let them live comfortably. sell it as coming from higher taxes on the us-based global capitalist that is ruining them. do that and you'll get back the people who split for Trump, you'll wide the wave and gently caress it, you will goddamn try.

also, if they trot out protectionism, point to how protectionist loving Japan is, and how they've been hellfucked for decades now, with no end in sight.

basically the democratic party is loving doomed because they will not do this.

The question was, did you want some straws for your soda cup?

(try to use less words in C-SPAM to make your points, thanks.)

# ? Nov 10, 2016 03:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

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