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Are people starting to suggest Boston should take Isaac at #3 because he's actually worth it, or just because his flaws are more subtle (and less broadly discussed) than Jackson/Tatum
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Jun 22, 2017 02:20
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:But Phoenix is going to pick whatever SF Boston doesn't and Fox would be there anyway at 5 They think he'll be there, but they aren't 100% sure he will be. Apparently they're over the moon that he actually likes them and wants to play for them. They just aren't used to that.
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Jun 22, 2017 02:32
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Cool Buff Man posted:I knew everyone was wrong for laughing at the Jaylen Brown pick when I saw his shorts. You have my blessing Noobie xbilkis posted:Are people starting to suggest Boston should take Isaac at #3 because he's actually worth it, or just because his flaws are more subtle (and less broadly discussed) than Jackson/Tatum Isaac has TREMENDOUUUUuUUUUSSs UPSIiiIIIDEEEEEE maybe even a little more than Jorsh Jeckson depending on who you ask. He is big, long, and athletic, he has a very good jum pshot. There is a hope that he can also dribble and pass, which he's shown in flashes. He played prretty good defense, despite being very skinny, at florida state It's probably more likely that Jonathan Isaac becomes a well rounded player than Josh Jackson becomes a 40% 3p shooter. Josh Jackson's "tearing apart a woman's car as she cowers inside, as if he was a grizzly bear" feels a lot like roid rage, so at least we know he's going to stay strong and fit.  UNFAIR I don't have the draft pick winshares chart handy, but I think Josh Jackson has the most superstar potential, Isaac has the strongest chance to be a really important Lamar Odom/Igoudala esque (not a comp) piece on a championship team, and Tatum has the best chance to score 20 points per 36 minutes in his rookie season and dramatically overrate his own importance, and have to be humbled by a trade to become the solid scoring 3 as 4 he was born to be. Josh Jackson's bad outcome is a player like MKG or Stanley Johnson but 10x faster, Isaac as a disappointment is like a skinny 2017 Ibaka who has more ball skills and passing., . Tatum as a disappointment is a sort of Michael Beasley type of multi level scorer who overestimates how important he is until he's suddenly in China, humbled, he returns as a bench gunner. Note I used "disappointment" not "bust" Josh Jackson as a bust would be any of a litany of super athlete wings who failed to develop jumpers and slowly faded in minutes until they were gone. Isaac as a bust would be like Noah Vonleh but not as bad. Tatum as a bust is Beasley before he came back from China Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 02:41
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xbilkis posted:Are people starting to suggest Boston should take Isaac at #3 because he's actually worth it, or just because his flaws are more subtle (and less broadly discussed) than Jackson/Tatum I think you're on to something, although I think it's important that people remember Florida State basically was the perfect situation for Issac, he was usually playing next to veteran (for college) bigs who did all the dirty work, and they ran an offense where any sort of contribution from him was a bonus, so they didn't really have to test him much. I think taking Issac as what he actually is, there's a significant larger amount of risk, he's very raw. Both Tatum and Jackson had bigger expectations, and met those expectations for the most part, and have more defined roles going into the NBA. But drat that length is impressive. And sometimes that shot goes in.
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Jun 22, 2017 02:42
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e: wrong thread
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Jun 22, 2017 02:44
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Rick posted:I think you're on to something, although I think it's important that people remember Florida State basically was the perfect situation for Issac, he was usually playing next to veteran (for college) bigs who did all the dirty work, and they ran an offense where any sort of contribution from him was a bonus, so they didn't really have to test him much. Porzingis is a hit, and, mm do you want to say yes to Harrison Barnes? For his spot, sure. Then you have a lot of guys drafted after the lottery or in the second round who developed a shot along with good defense. Otherwise you have college threes who were shifted up a position. HOWMEVER, the longer the archetype exists, the more players and coaches will play to it and the more BLUE CHIP stretch fours will be drafted and play well. Is Jonathan Isaac number 2 after Porzingis??? Who loving knows. His video is about as telling as zach Collins, which is to say, not at all telling This is all moot if you want to consider Anthony Davis, Karl Towns, etc power forwards, but everyone knew they were centers with a vanity pf label, like Tim Duncan Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 02:47
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Dejan Bimble posted:Porzingis is a hit, and, mm do you want to say yes to Harrison Barnes? For his spot, sure. Yeah definitely. I think a lot of it is sample size. Most of the guys touted as stretch bigs spent very little time doing that in college, so people are basically trying to turn a guy who was a traditional PF in college, who hit a three a few times a game, into full time stretch bigs and it just isn't happening (to beat an old drum again, this is partly why Markkanen is so interesting because he basically actually played a very NBA-style big-that-sometimes-stretches role in college). I'm also nervous of guys like Collins and Issac who were heavily protected on their teams from doing stuff to make them look bad. You almost need to see what a guy looks like when it's not easy, especially for bigs.
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Jun 22, 2017 02:59
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Rick posted:Yeah definitely. I think a lot of it is sample size. Most of the guys touted as stretch bigs spent very little time doing that in college, so people are basically trying to turn a guy who was a traditional PF in college, who hit a three a few times a game, into full time stretch bigs and it just isn't happening (to beat an old drum again, this is partly why Markkanen is so interesting because he basically actually played a very NBA-style big-that-sometimes-stretches role in college). I'm also nervous of guys like Collins and Issac who were heavily protected on their teams from doing stuff to make them look bad. You almost need to see what a guy looks like when it's not easy, especially for bigs. Lauri's jumper is interestingly like Josh jackson's in the initial phase and then Markannen has the ball in the net by the time jackson is finally releasing the ball. Josh Jackson's shot is very fast initially and then incredibly slow, I think NBA teams will scout that and devour it. He's got a ton of work to do. Markannen reminds me a bit of Lamargasoldridge without the ball stopping. He gets the ball in the flow of the offense, pulls up and it's in, before the defense has a chance to react. Aside from the obvious, how do you field a good defense with Markannen as your C, I wonder if his poor finishing will hurt him. His dribble drives are nice, but if the ball doesn't go in, they're a lot less threatening. I think he's less of a tough fit on defense than someone like Spencer Hawes or Frank Kaminsky, because he moves well. But his team will still need someone who's a rim running sort of 4 on offense that can protect the rim like a 5 on defense. Lonzo Ball seems more and more like fools gold. His team will need at least 2 other plausible creators, he just gets completely stymied in a way that you do not expect from some pg as heralded as him, especially not a pass first pg. His finishing when he doesn't have a big head of steam is pathetic. He is not an athlete. All the LA people crossing their fingers for Ball may have obtained him in a monkey's paw scenario where he's the middle class man's Ronnie Brewer. Actually, you know what Ball in the half court reminds me of ? The leaked footage of Connor McGregor boxing, where he shows the footwork that a 15 year old amateur boxer would laugh hysterically at. He's shuffling and bending over himself and reaching the basket with no momentum and no strength. Dennis Smith: Seeing him create something out of absolutely nothing against packed paint, despite the doubts of his wingspan, is really encouraging. His ball handling and finishing remind me of a combination of Isaiah Thomas and Damian Lillard, while being a bit bigger and a lot more athletic than Lillard. He gets low and just slices through a set defense. He's going to be a really good NBA player. Fultz has such an interesting way of handling the ball, it reminds me of the sort of frightening first step of Lebron, a Chris Paul hesitation, a kyrie Wonkiness, and a Dirk wobble once he's near the rim that makes defenders wonder which hand he'll use to finish Isaac was made to look out of his depth against duke, against inferior athletes. Taytum is much slower but he managed to push and wiggle around him several times. His nascent ball handling is still very nascent. I have no idea how you project that. It's nice that he at least has the beginnings of something, but that's all. People keep calling Isaac a future good role player, and if his handle stays that way, and he's always off ball, I think that will be true. The more Taytum I watch the more Tobias Harris I see. taytum really needs to speed up his jumper, he needs to learn how to handle the ball, and he needs to pass the ball to open teammates. About Fox's awful 3p shooting. He made dead open shots, the gently caress you, you suck at shooting, we're not even going to contest shots, when he could square up and follow through without subconsciously being bothered by his hair. This is bare minimum competency we should expect from a "high ceiling" NBA pg propsect. Worrying, thoguh. I promise not to say the words. Other random thoughts: Ojeleye, where he's currently mocked could be a steal as a high level role player if he learns to do role player stuff and how to finish. Jawun Evans is a little canonball but his hands are tiny, which worries me. Donovan Mitchell is who I'm leaning toward, for Detroit, there's a lot he does that's not at all impressive. A lot. But there are chunks of his offense that remind me of a shrunken kevin durant, meaning he's leveraging his ridiculous arms to move through the defense in a way that's very difficult to cope with. There is promise there, a lot of uncertainty as well. As I started before, the measurements guy who rises late is always a frightening pick. At least he had a decent steal and block rate. Zach Collins looks like a much better defender than offensive player, on video. A ton of his post touches look like they'd be blocked or missed against NBA length. Everything else is a shrug Harry Giles looks like he could be a future tough guy garbage man if he never gets back his athleticism and those high school skills don't appear in the NBA Kurucs looks like he could play in the NBA if he adjusts to length, he has a good feel for the game, but very little explosiveness. context dependent career Pasecniks has been credited with moving really fluidly, he seems like a taller version of the less stocky plumlees, that sort of decent center who can run the floor. Who knows what will translate. Other guys the Pistons might draft: Jarret Allen is exciting and raw as a craw. Not as athletic as advertised. Kennard's shooting off the dribble is awesome, but will he be able to get that quick shot off against NBA defenses keying in on him, especially since his handle and drives are so makeshift? The pistons have no 2nd round pick but if they did I bet a billion dollars they would have used it on Alec Peters. If I was Stanley Vandy Gundy I'd pay the full 3m for a 2nd round pick to get Edmond Sumner who looks like a little gazelle who was just born and is being taught basketball. He's incredible with space. He seems like a great 2 way contract player, so he can use his athleticism to get wide open shots and improve his confidence while he works on his mechanics. And so he can get used to being a shut down defender, when his shot isn't working, to open up that mean transition game. Those are some random dribbling and shot related thoughts Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 04:59
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Lmao Ball as McGreggor is wonderful on many levels. The fans in LA are so disconnected in the same way some UFC fans are. I just don't understand how we have come this far with most people not examining Ball at all. For the posts about people being too hard on him for his dad my it actually looks like it gave him perfect cover. I think the Spurs and Mavs have demonstrated that if your big really really tries, you can end up having a good defense even if he is not a great defender. I think Lauri at the very least is going to try. Ojeleye is interesting to me, too. I am hoping the Lakers take him if he is still there, but I toyed with mocking him fairly high because the wings after Kennard are all risks. Love your description of Fultz as basically the Megazord/Voltron of good offensive players. I totally agree on Fox but man his personality is really infectious. I'm starting to really root for his haircut. If the Lakers chose him instead of Ball I'd wish I could backflip.
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Jun 22, 2017 05:33
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At least MacGregor has proven himself, Ball is unknown at this point.
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Jun 22, 2017 05:35
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Rick posted:Lmao Ball as McGreggor is wonderful on many levels. The fans in LA are so disconnected in the same way some UFC fans are. I just don't understand how we have come this far with most people not examining Ball at all. For the posts about people being too hard on him for his dad my it actually looks like it gave him perfect cover. He teleports with the basketball. There is a chance he's some John Wall in a skinny body little magic man. I'm not going to say the word but I'm dying to see he and Jackson with the word. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szy5vqpKL4Q There were so many times vs UCLA, admittedly not the most athletic team, that Fox looked like he was able to freeze time for 3 seconds and do what he wanted before any Bruin caught up to the play. Fox made Ball look like some random coach's son over and over. There are fast pgs in the NBA, Kyrie can cover the court at lightning speed with the ball, but I think Fox might be faster. He is both faster, quicker, and more explosive than Dennis Schröder (similarly-sized player with shooting deficiency). He'll need all that if he doesn't do the unspoken thing. I have no feel for his passing, because a dump off to Malik Monk isn't a high difficulty thing. To give lonzo credit, he did make open threes on those half court plays where the ball found its way to the paint, back out to someone else and then to lonzo standing there all alone. He'll need those.
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Jun 22, 2017 06:01
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It is really a contrast watching Kentucky switch Bam onto Ball and Ball is unable to get by him, and then watch Fox get past both the first and second line in the next cut. Man if teams can switch the big onto Ball the Lakers are in trouble. People clown on D'Angelo's athleticism but at least in situations like that which the guard generally wins he can get to the rim.
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Jun 22, 2017 06:18
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Rick and I are gonna laugh at a lot dumb Lakers fans when Ball is Buddy Hield instead of Steph Curry Also be super depressed
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Jun 22, 2017 06:22
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I'm more bullish on Ball than you are. He reminds me more of Ricky Rubio back when he first came into the league: a lanky, low-usage, pass-first PG with questionable scoring ability. Ball has better length and athleticism, can actually dunk instead of constantly getting his shots blocked like Rubio did/does, and (by the numbers DraftExpress uses) has the best 2P% in the draft class. Of course, Ball is more highly touted than Rubio was, Rubio had actually played professionally before coming here, and even then we knew that Rubio could make passes that were only possible via resolving third-level Wizard spells rather than anything regarding basketball. Ball's passing is good, but you can at least watch it and understand how he accomplished it. I don't see him winning RoY or anything, especially since he's a past first guy going to a Lakers team with uhh... who the gently caress is on the Lakers? Oh my god, Lou Williams was their best player. Noo
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Jun 22, 2017 06:32
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kingcobweb posted:I'm more bullish on Ball than you are. He reminds me more of Ricky Rubio back when he first came into the league: a lanky, low-usage, pass-first PG with questionable scoring ability. Ball has better length and athleticism, can actually dunk instead of constantly getting his shots blocked like Rubio did/does, and (by the numbers DraftExpress uses) has the best 2P% in the draft class. Of course, Ball is more highly touted than Rubio was, Rubio had actually played professionally before coming here, and even then we knew that Rubio could make passes that were only possible via resolving third-level Wizard spells rather than anything regarding basketball. Ball's passing is good, but you can at least watch it and understand how he accomplished it. Brook Lopez will be fine to pass to
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Jun 22, 2017 06:33
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kingcobweb posted:I'm more bullish on Ball than you are. He reminds me more of Ricky Rubio back when he first came into the league: a lanky, low-usage, pass-first PG with questionable scoring ability. Ball has better length and athleticism, can actually dunk instead of constantly getting his shots blocked like Rubio did/does, and (by the numbers DraftExpress uses) has the best 2P% in the draft class. Of course, Ball is more highly touted than Rubio was, Rubio had actually played professionally before coming here, and even then we knew that Rubio could make passes that were only possible via resolving third-level Wizard spells rather than anything regarding basketball. Ball's passing is good, but you can at least watch it and understand how he accomplished it. Brook Lopez might just put up the shittiest 30ppg season ever next season
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Jun 22, 2017 06:35
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The Glumslinger posted:Brook Lopez might just put up the shittiest 30ppg season ever next season The team he came from is way worse. He probably peaked last season, the west is gonna wear him down
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Jun 22, 2017 06:41
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Apparently the Lakers are the only ones with Lonzo's medical records. Guess that's a lock then.
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Jun 22, 2017 12:18
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The Glumslinger posted:Rick and I are gonna laugh at a lot dumb Lakers fans when Ball is Buddy Hield instead of Steph Curry Buddy is much better than what you guys are thinking Lonzo will be.
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Jun 22, 2017 12:38
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kingcobweb posted:I'm more bullish on Ball than you are. He reminds me more of Ricky Rubio back when he first came into the league: a lanky, low-usage, pass-first PG with questionable scoring ability. Ball has better length and athleticism, can actually dunk instead of constantly getting his shots blocked like Rubio did/does, and (by the numbers DraftExpress uses) has the best 2P% in the draft class. Of course, Ball is more highly touted than Rubio was, Rubio had actually played professionally before coming here, and even then we knew that Rubio could make passes that were only possible via resolving third-level Wizard spells rather than anything regarding basketball. Ball's passing is good, but you can at least watch it and understand how he accomplished it. I don't think I would say Lonzo is a better athlete than Rubio. Ricky was actually a good defender overseas against guys that are just as quick and stronger than the guys that constantly get past Ball. Rubio is also actually able to get into the paint with his dribble. Ball had a great 2pt% because most of his shots were assisted since he is a fantastic off-ball cutter and UCLA had at least three other guys who demanded heavy defensive attention at all times. He very rarely got to the rim on his own. He also only had 24 shots out of the pick and roll his entire time at UCLA. That's less than one per game he played. Ball looks more like a wing that needs others to create for him while he serves as a cutter, outlet, and fulcrum of a passing attack than the ball-dominant, pass-first, good defensive PG that was Rubio.
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Jun 22, 2017 12:44
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If the Sixers didn't trade up for 1, I would have like for them to get Fox, and I know he was on a bunch of lists as "worst fit for Sixers". But he's so fun. Watching him clown Ball again, sigh. I don't know which PG I'm most excited to see play in the NBA next season. Fultz, Fox and DSJ I want to see for real fun actual basketball reasons. Ball I want to see just to see how bad he gets clowned on. Like it was really fun for comedy reasons to watch the early season Sixers Rockets game when Dario ended up on Harden and Dario threw his hands up in frustration at one point after Harden had his way with him, like, "I have never seen this kind of human before, what the gently caress man".
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Jun 22, 2017 13:03
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Kibner posted:Ball looks more like a wing that needs others to create for him while he serves as a cutter, outlet, and fulcrum of a passing attack than the ball-dominant, pass-first, good defensive PG that was Rubio. Isn't his whole selling point his "floor general" potential and his court vision? Using him as an off-ball cutter seems like the opposite direction of that
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Jun 22, 2017 13:04
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Cool Buff Man posted:Isn't his whole selling point his "floor general" potential and his court vision? Using him as an off-ball cutter seems like the opposite direction of that Well, he can't get past anyone with his handles so that limits his ability to be the lead ball-handler quite a bit. You can put him in a position where possessions run through/around him pretty well, hence my "fulcrum" description.
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Jun 22, 2017 13:06
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Kibner posted:Well, he can't get past anyone with his handles so that limits his ability to be the lead ball-handler quite a bit. You can put him in a position where possessions run through/around him pretty well, hence my "fulcrum" description. Yeah, I just mean I'm pretty sure Magic is going to run everything through him. I absolutely think he'll probably bust or be underwhelming because of his limitations (sorry Rick)
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Jun 22, 2017 13:09
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Cool Buff Man posted:Yeah, I just mean I'm pretty sure Magic is going to run everything through him. I absolutely think he'll probably bust or be underwhelming because of his limitations (sorry Rick) If his shot form proves to not be a problem, he could become Reggie Miller-esque with better passing and cutting! 
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Jun 22, 2017 13:16
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Kibner posted:If his shot form proves to not be a problem, he could become Reggie Miller-esque with better passing and cutting! That link to the site you sent is whack. Not the link, but the site. Took 8 hrs to get verification email and the link doesnt work. Oh well... I think Ive made a new thread for SAS Draft Game last two years. Ya'll want to do it again?
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Jun 22, 2017 13:50
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ButtWolf posted:That link to the site you sent is whack. Not the link, but the site. Took 8 hrs to get verification email and the link doesnt work. Oh well... Weird. It normally works pretty well and smoothly. Not sure what went wrong.
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Jun 22, 2017 14:06
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I hope this clears up what the Timberwolves will be doing at #7 https://twitter.com/JerryZgoda/status/877559295122059264
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Jun 22, 2017 16:01
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Someone compared Collins to Ibaka so now I'm 100% on board
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Jun 22, 2017 16:31
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Lockback posted:I hope this clears up what the Timberwolves will be doing at #7 I just heard they are going to improve their team by developing drafted talent, making timely trades and also signing free agents.
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Jun 22, 2017 17:29
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Paul Zuvella posted:I just heard they are going to improve their team by developing drafted talent, making timely trades and also signing free agents. That would be a bold new direction for the Wolves so I'm all for it
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Jun 22, 2017 17:43
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What is not listed is tampering and losing the pick, so at least that is finally off the table.
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Jun 22, 2017 17:49
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This is svg dog account https://twitter.com/EastwoodVG/status/877943843844374530
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Jun 22, 2017 18:40
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Metapod posted:This is svg dog account That's just weird
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Jun 22, 2017 18:44
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The Glumslinger posted:Rick and I are gonna laugh at a lot dumb Lakers fans when Ball is Buddy Hield instead of Steph Curry I am not convinced by Ball. Simultaneously, I am not unconvinced. The one thing I am convinced about is that One and Done is not enough for teams to go on. A lot of players might look good for one season - "Linsanity" comes to mind - then their shortcomings are taken advantage of, and they grow or whither. If Fox develops a shot, he's gold. Ball is more the thinking man's player - does he compensate, does he learn, because he isn't going to get it done by sheer athletic talent. In the end, you are betting on Fox's athleticism or Ball's basketball IQ. it's easy to guess what Magic prefers to depend on, but the Lakers still haven't publically committed, so we just have to wait and see how the options play out. As to Magic's ability to be a good team principal - I am not convinced he was the right choice. I do know that Jim Buss (auto-destruct aka auto-correct - amusingly changed Buss to "abuse") was the wrong choice.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:46
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Four year college players bust just as, if not more, often. The NBA game is a different beast than college can hope to provide.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:59
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FYI, we hit the time where teams aren't allowed to trade picks anymore (though they can still draft rights). So any picks that are traded now still have to wear the hat of the wrong team.
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Jun 22, 2017 19:11
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Lockback posted:FYI, we hit the time where teams aren't allowed to trade picks anymore (though they can still draft rights). I'm sure there's some logical explanation for this but it seems so stupid
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Jun 22, 2017 19:16
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morestuff posted:I'm sure there's some logical explanation for this but it seems so stupid I think its from the old days so you wouldn't end up with it being unclear who owns what pick since cell phones weren't a thing. Now it seems pretty dumb.
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Jun 22, 2017 19:18
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Dejan Bimble posted:He teleports with the basketball. There is a chance he's some John Wall in a skinny body little magic man. I'm not going to say the word but I'm dying to see he and Jackson with the word. My idea of basketball heaven at the moment would be just watching Fox school Ball in one-on-one matchups forever.
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Jun 22, 2017 19:34
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