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Have Some Flowers! posted:I've seen a number of articles/videos over the last few days condemning the tone/approach of the left. In general I agree there's a lot to unpack, and plenty of room for improvement here. The left needs to be sold on abandoning respectability politics. We have no shortage of people happy to "watch their tone." There's absolutely nothing to be gained from any person who sits around doing nothing but trying to police people to be more moderate.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:25
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What would the punishment be for helping and housing a refugee coming to the USA illegally? Is there any kind of underground railroad poo poo going on?
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Nov 15, 2016 19:25
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You might have seen this floating about, but it's good and true advice.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:26
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TomViolence posted:If you still believe in leftist values, I fail to understand how those are compatible with allowing a man endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan into high office. It's not enough to just clap your hands and believe. Fascism can't be stopped with the ballot box alone, it has to be faced in the streets and undercut by real solutions to the social ills and anxieties it feeds off. You know, that Trump isn't advocating for anything the Ku Klux Klan is representing right? It just happens to be that the Ku Klux Klan might also oppose (illegal) immigration which Trump is also opposing. Trump probably hates them just as much as you or me. Trump isn't a fascist.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:26
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Captain Fargle posted:We are all aware. You are not some kind of unique genius and we don't need your smug warnings about how idiots like him exist. See now you're being a sectarian. I've never given a "smug warning", I tried to start a discussion on how we deal with the white moderate stealth reactionary and their respectability politics, which upset you, and now it's too late because you've got a real live one. I'm smug now because it's blew up in your face. Captain Fargle posted:And yes, apologizing away the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, anti-semitic nature of Trump, his campaign and his allies does count as racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and anti-semitism. He hadn't actually started doing that until after I started writing my response to you. Pardon me for not reading posts from the future HorseLord fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 19:27
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Stockholm Syndrome posted:You know, that Trump isn't advocating for anything the Ku Klux Klan is representing right? It just happens to be that the Ku Klux Klan might also oppose (illegal) immigration which Trump is also opposing. Trump probably hates them just as much as you or me. Trump isn't a fascist. Except for that time when he was asked to denounce his endorsement from the KKK and he wouldn't. Also Trump hasn't just been endorsed by the KKK, nearly every white nationalist group domestically and around the world has either endorsed or celebrated Trump's victory. Doorknob Slobber fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 19:31
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Stockholm Syndrome posted:You know, that Trump isn't advocating for anything the Ku Klux Klan is representing right? It just happens to be that the Ku Klux Klan might also oppose (illegal) immigration which Trump is also opposing. Trump probably hates them just as much as you or me. Trump isn't a fascist. You got proof for any of those or just wishful thinking that smells like it's fresh from your colon? Because I seriously doubt that anyone that pals around with and hires Bannon hates fascism or the KKK. Also, people's personhood is non-negotiable, full stop.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:33
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Step 1 for dealing with someone doing the Respectable Outraged Liberal act: don't reply to his posts because he isn't sincere
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Nov 15, 2016 19:33
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Stockholm Syndrome posted:You know, that Trump isn't advocating for anything the Ku Klux Klan is representing right? It just happens to be that the Ku Klux Klan might also oppose (illegal) immigration which Trump is also opposing. Trump probably hates them just as much as you or me. Trump isn't a fascist.  HorseLord posted:See now you're being a sectarian. I've never given a "smug warning", I tried to start a discussion on how we deal with the white moderate stealth reactionary and their respectability politics, which upset you, and now it's too late because you've got a real live one. I'm smug now because it's blew up in your face. You're not helping, dude. Your whole schtick seems to be mainly about being insufferable and demoralising to engage with and that's not really in the coalition-building spirit of this thread at all. Save the wrangling over theory and purity for after the fight is won, then you can purge to your heart's content.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:35
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Take it to USPOL if you can't ignore that bullshit, people. These are not good faith arguments and they're not worth addressing. He followed a post about leftists working with churches to promote social justice with handwringing about violence.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:36
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It's violence to punch someone in the face. Sure. But it's also violence to enact policies that fund conversion therapy programs. It's just abstracted a few levels. And accordingly, it's violence to enable the people that put those policies into place. Ehh, it's not in good faith, so not worth derailing. Still, it's the bullshit you'll have to deal with if you get involved with party politics. It's worth having a good framework to argue from if you're trying to convince a room full of people.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:43
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I'm wondering if this "leftist=peaceful people" is unique to the US or if it has permeated other countries as well because where I come from it sounds hella strange...
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Nov 15, 2016 19:48
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Captain Fargle posted:This is EXACTLY what the thread rules in OP say NOT to do. Hey idiot you don't make the rules and you did this to yourself. Change the thread title to "dumb bullshit liberals think will help" if you want to bring some clarity to the discussion. See: spotlessd posted:The pain of getting involved in the party here is not insignificant. It generally involves walking liberal baby idiots backwards through every single lie they've ever been told since they were in grade school just so that sentences like "don't torture people and bomb them with robots" can even parse as English. spotlessd fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 20:17
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Does anyone have good resources on case studies for small community improvement? I want to do some things at the county level here but can't imagine where to begin. Like how do you bring jobs in a class friendly way to an area? Mine is somewhat rural.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:24
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MizPiz posted:Would like to request that the Southern Poverty Law Center be added to the OP. It's another social/economic justice organization that specializes in litigations. Most of their work includes mapping hate crimes and seeking justice for the victims of it, though they have gone after hate groups and people of authority through the courts. Not specifically a leftist organization, but one that'll definitely need a lot more help during a Trump administration. I know this is maybe not the time or place but I think it's important to not "blind faith" these things. The SLPC branded Maajid Nawaz, a liberal Muslim, as an anti-Islamic extremist. That's what I was told anyway and I do think I read the link. Some of the people like Horowitz and Ali definitely qualify but Nawaz? I am fully aware of the Islamophobia sweeping the Western World - I myself shamefully bought into it for a while - but discriminating against a Muslim calling for reform seems like a bad idea. But in any event, thank you to this thread. I called myself a Centrist for a while because I do have some Right Wing views but said views are being hitched to a wagon I hate. My Leftist opinions are more important to me than my Rightist ones so I'll gladly go "all in" to try and stop the poo poo that's plaguing not only my country (the US) but the whole world. I'm especially grateful for the post on trying to stop Bannon. I didn't even know how awful he was until someone told me and I'm probably far more aware of Breitbart than most people. Question: Already seen the "are third parties worth it?" discussion come up and also a link to a pro-Anarchist site. But then there was also the post on how to get the Democratic Party to reform into something better. Is it worth my time to try and join some alternative Leftist organization or should I just try to make the Dems less terrible?
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Nov 15, 2016 20:26
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Its better to use the existing party for infrastructure reasons if nothing else.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:37
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Yeah, in a two-party system you're definitely better off working within one of the big two rather than trying to shore up a third party, particularly with the electoral college system you have in the US. It's far from perfect, but it's better to have something "good enough" to work with rather than something niche but pure or whatever. Same goes for the westminster system probably, certainly here in the UK you could do worse than getting involved in the labour party, though the parliamentary contingent of it is doing its level best to fight change and the newly-minted left wing leader is shaping up to be electoral poison.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:45
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Sylink posted:Does anyone have good resources on case studies for small community improvement? I want to do some things at the county level here but can't imagine where to begin. This will depend greatly on the circumstances of your area. The first thing I would do is start attending any town meetings. Almost no one goes to these, and you'll get to talk to the town council/assemblymen/whatever. Become a known entity in the area. During this process, discover if there is a Rotary club/Chamber of Commerce/Lions International/whatever in your area. These are everywhere, and almost anyone who is anyone in a small town is a member. Once you know the local government and the local rich people, you've done the first steps. Next, figure out what's keeping jobs away from your town. The most extreme example I can think of is this horribly lovely town in the mid-west where the only guy who had any money was the owner of the local Dairy Queen, and he worked closely with the town to block the building permits of any other businesses that wanted to move into the area, for fear that they would hurt his bottom line. Hopefully yours will not be this severe an uphill battle. Perhaps it's the location, and you need to create an attractive draw to bring people? Perhaps it's the tax rate compared to the competing towns, and it needs to be lowered slightly? Perhaps it's the lack of liquid capital, in which case you can often get loans and grants to start businesses (check out the USDA Rural Development Grants if you're in a rural area)? After that, identify what is lacking in town. Do you need a hardware store? How many garden stores are in town? Is there underutilized commercial or industrial spaces? Are there older buildings that, with some work, would make nice spaces for businesses? This will vary from community to community; there is no one size fits all solution here. Then, remember those local rich folks you made friends with earlier? Propose ideas to them. Often they are looking to expand and invest. If you can present a full case, complete with answers to their questions and concerns already prepared, you'll be much more persuasive. Here's some stuff from the EPA, including successful case studies, that might help too: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-05/documents/competitive_advantage_051215_508_final.pdf Their main points are: quote:• Identify and build on existing assets. Identify the assets that offer the best opportunities for growth and develop strategies to support them. Assets might include natural beauty and outdoor recreation, historic downtowns, or arts and cultural institutions.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:51
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TomViolence posted:Yeah, in a two-party system you're definitely better off working within one of the big two rather than trying to shore up a third party, particularly with the electoral college system you have in the US. It's far from perfect, but it's better to have something "good enough" to work with rather than something niche but pure or whatever. In the UK a third party nearly destroyed the union and then took all the seats in an entire country.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:51
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HorseLord posted:In the UK a third party nearly destroyed the union and then took all the seats in an entire country. And they've done fuckall productive with it and spend all their time sniping at the parties adjacent instead of opposing the one opposite.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:58
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TomViolence posted:Yeah, in a two-party system you're definitely better off working within one of the big two rather than trying to shore up a third party, particularly with the electoral college system you have in the US. It's far from perfect, but it's better to have something "good enough" to work with rather than something niche but pure or whatever. Over in the USPOL thread people were discussing how the Democrats are currently potentially heading towards the Left and there's been no real resistance. It was contrasted with Labour which apparently tore itself apart to try and stop Corbyn. But Corbyn is...not good? I dunno. I only follow the "surface" events, I can't say if he's a good politician or not. All I know is that I have researched the hell out of how the Far Right has risen up all over the Western World. I wasn't even absolutely opposed to it because this was an inevitability. I'm not an economist but the ones I follow have said the policies of the last 30 or 40 years made all of this a necessity because people have been hosed over for too long. But Corbyn and Sanders and I think someone over in Spain are the only real "Far Left" (not really, in Sanders' case at least) anti-establishment people while all the others are on the Right. I'd like to see more of the anti-establishment Left grow in power, obviously.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:58
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I started donating to the DSA but I don't feel like it's enough. Is the DSA leftist enough, or should I be adhering to a different party?
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Nov 15, 2016 20:59
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Pollyanna posted:I started donating to the DSA but I don't feel like it's enough. Is the DSA leftist enough, or should I be adhering to a different party? One thing I've heard is that they're silent on most foreign policy/imperialism questions, and same with LGBTQ issues. But I think largely worth the 40 bux. Also not really a party.
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Nov 15, 2016 21:04
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menino posted:One thing I've heard is that they're silent on most foreign policy/imperialism questions, and same with LGBTQ issues. But I think largely worth the 40 bux. Also not really a party. Doesn't seem like enough for me, but I might as well for the economic aspects of it. I'll just push it leftward.
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Nov 15, 2016 21:16
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NikkolasKing posted:Over in the USPOL thread people were discussing how the Democrats are currently potentially heading towards the Left and there's been no real resistance. It was contrasted with Labour which apparently tore itself apart to try and stop Corbyn. But Corbyn is...not good? I dunno. I only follow the "surface" events, I can't say if he's a good politician or not. Corbyn is like Jimmy Carter in that he's a good person but an extremely lovely politician. Obviously leadership isn't easy when most of your party organization hates you, but he's been pretty passive and spineless in the face of Brexit. He is definitely not the Sanders-esque firebrand that people were expecting him to be.
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Nov 15, 2016 21:40
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Pollyanna posted:I started donating to the DSA but I don't feel like it's enough. Is the DSA leftist enough, or should I be adhering to a different party? There's the PSL
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Nov 15, 2016 21:43
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HorseRenoir posted:Corbyn is like Jimmy Carter in that he's a good person but an extremely lovely politician. Obviously leadership isn't easy when most of your party organization hates you, but he's been pretty passive and spineless in the face of Brexit. He is definitely not the Sanders-esque firebrand that people were expecting him to be. I feel like the bizarre and lovely nature of our electoral system actually helps us on this front. We could primary Chuck Schumer. I don't think British people can do that type of thing to Blairites, can they? Is there anyone knowledgeable on how we could organize effective primary challenges to conservative Democrats in safe seats and how we could find competent candidates to do that? I want to primary motherfuckers but I don't want to be like the Tea Party and replace them with idiots and crazy people.
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Nov 15, 2016 21:51
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Lightning Knight posted:I feel like the bizarre and lovely nature of our electoral system actually helps us on this front. Most of the conservative Dems were wiped out in 2010. I have no issue with big establishment names like Schumer staying as long as they know they hosed up and support the progressive wing, which it looks like they are. Primarying our party's most established names and money-raisers for no reason is dumb, especially when it's way harder for Dems to find outside donors and infrastructure independently like fringe Tea Partiers can.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:05
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HorseRenoir posted:Corbyn is like Jimmy Carter in that he's a good person but an extremely lovely politician. Obviously leadership isn't easy when most of your party organization hates you, but he's been pretty passive and spineless in the face of Brexit. He is definitely not the Sanders-esque firebrand that people were expecting him to be. I don't think surviving a leadership coup is all that spineless.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:09
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HorseRenoir posted:Most of the conservative Dems were wiped out in 2010. I have no issue with big establishment names like Schumer staying as long as they know they hosed up and support the progressive wing, which it looks like they are. Primarying our party's most established names and money-raisers for no reason is dumb, especially when it's way harder for Dems to find outside donors and infrastructure independently like fringe Tea Partiers can. When I say conservative Democrats, I mean not progressives. I don't think we should aggressively primary people outright, but most Democrats don't live under the threat of being primaried at all and I think we should change that. I bet Obama's first term would've gone a lot better if the Democrats knew we would primary them for not purging Wall Street.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:09
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HorseRenoir posted:Corbyn is like Jimmy Carter in that he's a good person but an extremely lovely politician. Obviously leadership isn't easy when most of your party organization hates you, but he's been pretty passive and spineless in the face of Brexit. He is definitely not the Sanders-esque firebrand that people were expecting him to be. My understanding with Corbyn and Brexit was that (from his perspective) he was defending a bad organization against a worse decision. This is coming from me only catching small blinks of news from the UK, so clarification about this would be great.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:11
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Lightning Knight posted:When I say conservative Democrats, I mean not progressives. I don't think we should aggressively primary people outright, but most Democrats don't live under the threat of being primaried at all and I think we should change that. Explain what you mean by primary-ing please. If it's a process that means opening up Democrat seats to the possibility of a Republican taking it instead I don't think it's a good idea to cause that kind of upset at the present time. The Democrat position is precarious enough as it is right now.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:19
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The democrat position isn't precarious enough; that's why they get away with everything they do.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:21
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Captain Fargle posted:Explain what you mean by primary-ing please. If it's a process that means opening up Democrat seats to the possibility of a Republican taking it instead I don't think it's a good idea to cause that kind of upset at the present time. The Democrat position is precarious enough as it is right now. As in challenging a sitting congressperson who did A Bad Thing for their seat in the primary before the election. It's what the Tea Party did to get the Republicans to respect them and it forces sitting Democrats to take their campaign promises seriously. This is generally a thing you do in safe seats where there's no threat of a Republican winning, because those are the Dems who get complacent.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:24
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Lightning Knight posted:As in challenging a sitting congressperson who did A Bad Thing for their seat in the primary before the election. It's what the Tea Party did to get the Republicans to respect them and it forces sitting Democrats to take their campaign promises seriously. As I said, most of the Dems who were stubbornly against progressive legislation are gone. Most of the centrist Dems remaining would vote for that legislation but will not be the ones to actively push for it unless someone else can prove that it's a politically safe way to move forward. We saw this happen when the DNC added progressive points to their platform after Bernie proved there was demand for it. And now we're seeing it happen again with establishment Dems supporting Ellison for DNC chair after Hillary lost. If Ellison gets the position and successfully wins races on that platform, then that's it.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:39
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gently caress the Dems. I changed my registration the day after the vote to Independent, because the Democrats have proven that they've proven themselves to be of the limp dick. The always rely on the facts and play it totally safe party. They're not the party of progressives, they're the party of conservatism that's pretending they're still liberals. The actual Left in this country needs a new party, one that's actually interested in progressive politics.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:49
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Lightning Knight posted:As in challenging a sitting congressperson who did A Bad Thing for their seat in the primary before the election. It's what the Tea Party did to get the Republicans to respect them and it forces sitting Democrats to take their campaign promises seriously. It's still something I would fell uneasy about in the current political climate but I understand. Since I'm not American I can't really say anything more on the situation. MizPiz posted:My understanding with Corbyn and Brexit was that (from his perspective) he was defending a bad organization against a worse decision. This is coming from me only catching small blinks of news from the UK, so clarification about this would be great. Jeremy Corbyn is a man extremely critical of the European Union. He wanted Britain to remain, in the hopes of enacting change from within as one of the three largest and most powerful members (Those being Germany, France and The UK) but neither is there any real love lost in the fact that we're leaving. The same goes for his second in command John McDonnell. In their view leaving is an opportunity, should Labour get into power under the leadership of their faction, to enact more left wing economic policy than is possible while still meeting current European treaty obligations. This is causing a hell of a lot of grief to many people, since the rest of the party and the vast majority of Labour supporters are very ardent about wanting to stay.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:53
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So what is Antifa and why did someone recommend against joining them? I Googled Antifa and got their Dallas site. (I live in Fort Worth) It says it's against white supremacists. Sounds good to me, especially given the times we live in.
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Nov 15, 2016 23:14
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Antifa is just a shortening of Anti-Fascist, as far as I know.
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Nov 15, 2016 23:19
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NikkolasKing posted:So what is Antifa and why did someone recommend against joining them? They're willing to use violence for political ends, which antithetical to most American liberals' political beliefs.
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Nov 15, 2016 23:24
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