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exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."



8-Bit Scholar posted:

Plus, 13 has combat that's largely meaningless. In the first chunk of the game you have a limit to how much you can level up and you level up pretty much every three fights. The sphere grid knock-off is a joke, because it offers no branching paths or any actual choices and literally just makes it take longer to get your stat increases. loving Pokemon has a better level up system than FFXIII.

FFX-2, combat mechanics as a positive or no, has combat that actively fuels another element of gameplay, the job system, which rewards players with new skills, better stats, and all that jazz to the jobs they are using. Every job needs to be leveled up as well, so this means that even if you have to backtrack or explore an earlier zone, you can swap in a low-level job and still benefit from the experience while the battles are rendered piss easy by your other, stronger jobs.

Like, all that stuff is good. FFX-2 is the inverse 13 in that the gameplay is solid but the stuff that surrounds, bridges and propells that gameplay is loving awful.

This, except the story, characters, and hell just about everything in FFX-2 own also.

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No. 1 Apartheid Fan
Aug 20, 2005



The Pulse thing in FF13 is weird because when I got there I was like "holy poo poo, this is the part goons were talking about when they said it gets good" and I thought it was going to be like Final Fantasy 6 or 7 where I still had like half a game to go somehow and the second half was going to have towns and optional areas to explore and poo poo like that.

The game would've been way better if it was structured that way. It would've actually been a good twist to get down to Pulse where everything is supposed to be dangerous and terrible and it turns out there's thriving villages everywhere and people are mostly happy.

The more I type about it the more I think somebody at some point probably intended that to happen before the game kept getting rebuilt and poo poo

Mr. Fortitude
Jul 9, 2010


I've actually been thinking about what happened to Final Fantasy and I think I've come to the conclusion that the newer games in the series lack "heart". The older games felt as if someone involved in the development really had a story to tell which resonated with them, even if the execution was a bit off frequently. From Final Fantasy 1 being quite literally, the Final Fantasy of Hironobu Sakaguchi to make Squaresoft successful instead of going bankrupt, to Final Fantasy 4's simple tale of redemption for both Cecil and Golbez, to Final Fantasy 6's tale of hope even in the face of great disaster to Final Fantasy 7 being a story primarily about identity and coming to terms with your own life with sub themes of each of the main cast having experienced loss at one point in their lives. Final Fantasy 8 is a game I'm not overly keen on but even that had heart by telling a story about love and hatred. Squall becomes a better person because of love of Rinoa whilst Ultimecia fails because she is a product of hatred, having spent her whole life persecuted against by others out of fear. Final Fantasy 9 tells a story about mortality and coming to grips with it and the time you have left in the world. 10 tells a similar story but with a more Japanese outlook by pointing out that sometimes adherence to your duty is blinding and sometimes old dogmas should be left beind. 12 tells a story about breaking free from the chains of fate and not being blinded by revenge and hatred, sure the story itself isn't told very well because of Matsuno leaving but the themes are still there.

Final Fantasy 13 on the other hand, I have absolutely no loving clue what the core themes of that game are. I think it's supposed to be a rehash of 12, except they escape their fate by... being compliant to fate, defiance of the Gods made the Gods plan come to fruition, what a wonderful victory. 13-2 tells even less of a coherent narrative and is all over the place and I can't really think of any core messages that Lightning Returns wants to tell.

So I guess that a lack of coherent vision and lack of a story that resonates with someone who worked on the games are the problems with the newer Final Fantasy games. Sometimes the games just need to be lighthearted fun, like Final Fantasy 5 or World of Final Fantasy and that's perfectly fine. But the more serious games tend to be all over the place both in gameplay and narratively.

TheHoosier
Dec 30, 2004

The fuck, Graham?!


FFT is the best. Even when it went full tilt Evil Jesus and demons it was still the best of the bunch

gigglefeimer
Mar 16, 2007


exquisite tea posted:

This, except the story, characters, and hell just about everything in FFX-2 own also.

Yeah, it's kind of amazing how X-2 improves on every character that was in X.

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



Switchblade Switcharoo

The plot of Lightning Returns is that the gods are morons and/or dicks and the world is ending and nothing can stop it so help tie up their loose ends and get on the reincarnation boat.

Thundercracker
Jun 25, 2004

Proudly serving the Ruinous Powers since as a veteran of the long war.


College Slice

chumbler posted:

The plot of Lightning Returns is that the gods are morons and/or dicks and the world is ending and nothing can stop it so help tie up their loose ends and get on the reincarnation boat.

That's the premise. The actual plot is "Don't try to cheat Lighting or she will loving end you."

Which she repeatedly tells God from the very beginning, and yet Benevilza still tries to pull a fast one on her.

Lightning Returns is the best Lightning.

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Mr. Fortitude posted:

Final Fantasy 8 is a game I'm not overly keen on but even that had heart by telling a story about love and hatred. Squall becomes a better person because of love of Rinoa whilst Ultimecia fails because she is a product of hatred, having spent her whole life persecuted against by others out of fear.

Rinoa is Ultimecia though.

quote:

So I guess that a lack of coherent vision and lack of a story that resonates with someone who worked on the games are the problems with the newer Final Fantasy games. Sometimes the games just need to be lighthearted fun, like Final Fantasy 5 or World of Final Fantasy and that's perfectly fine. But the more serious games tend to be all over the place both in gameplay and narratively.

I agree. Final Fantasy has just seemed to stop telling a coherent and/or entertaining story. (It has also largely failed to make decent characters.)

TheHoosier posted:

FFT is the best. Even when it went full tilt Evil Jesus and demons it was still the best of the bunch

Can we just talk about how Delita is just the greatest and best ever? This guy comes from next to nothing and is just poo poo on by almost everyone and he just goes straight up chessmaster and beats these arrogant fuckers at their own game. (I'm with you Delita, kill the loving rich.) He uses everyone and yet even in using Ramza he makes an effort to be decent and helpful because he rightfully sees Ramza as a tool he can use and point in the right direction for him to reap the benefits. The after credits stinger where Delita has Everything He Ever Wanted but his wife loving stabs him because she has found him out and has had it with his manipulative poo poo just filled me with so much vindication and sadness. I was cheering and shaking my head within moments of each other. Because he was so good.

Delita is just so good you guys.

Jenner fucked around with this message at Nov 24, 2016 around 00:07

Mr. Fortitude
Jul 9, 2010


After sleeping on it, the core themes and message behind the XIII trilogy seem to be "Lightning is awesome, praise Lightning, the waifu of Motomu Toriyama!" and "Moms are tough!".

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



Switchblade Switcharoo

Mr. Fortitude posted:

After sleeping on it, the core themes and message behind the XIII trilogy seem to be "Lightning is awesome, praise Lightning, the waifu of Motomu Toriyama!" and "Moms are tough!".

You forgot "Sazh is too old for this poo poo."

DropsySufferer
Nov 9, 2008

Impractical practicality


gigglefeimer posted:

Yeah, it's kind of amazing how X-2 improves on every character that was in X.

What about how creepy Brother becomes...

Radish
Aug 13, 2003



The Gunslinger posted:

It never gets good. You eventually make it to a big empty area where you can do quasi-FF12 style hunts. At this point the player is so loving bored that this shake up of routine is mistakenly embraced as emergent gameplay or something. Later you realize its just tedious in a different way.

Also I possibly missed it but the only way you could check your quests was to physically return to the stones that gave them. I got to that area and quit after fifteen minutes exactly as you described.

8-Bit Scholar
Jan 23, 2016

by FactsAreUseless


exquisite tea posted:

This, except the story, characters, and hell just about everything in FFX-2 own also.

I don't appreciate brainy Rikku taking a massive drop in IQ and being a ditzy bimbo who laughs while her semi-retarded brother propositions his cousin. All of FFX's characters kind of go to poo poo in FFX-2.

The only character who doesn't suffer is Yuna, whom it is interesting to see in a new capacity, but good lord, a pop singing gunslinger isn't exactly how I envisioned Grand Summoner Yuna to go.

Thundercracker
Jun 25, 2004

Proudly serving the Ruinous Powers since as a veteran of the long war.


College Slice

Mr. Fortitude posted:

After sleeping on it, the core themes and message behind the XIII trilogy seem to be "Lightning is awesome, praise Lightning, the waifu of Motomu Toriyama!" and "Moms are tough!".

The Lightning/Versace ad campaign was basically this.

"If Lightning was in our reality she would totally be into designer handbags" felt just like Toriyama keeping Lightning alive for one more moment.

And yes delita is the best FF side character. "Blame yourself or blame God" set the tone for the entirety of FFT

Thundercracker fucked around with this message at Nov 24, 2016 around 23:46

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



Switchblade Switcharoo

8-Bit Scholar posted:

I don't appreciate brainy Rikku taking a massive drop in IQ and being a ditzy bimbo who laughs while her semi-retarded brother propositions his cousin. All of FFX's characters kind of go to poo poo in FFX-2.

The only character who doesn't suffer is Yuna, whom it is interesting to see in a new capacity, but good lord, a pop singing gunslinger isn't exactly how I envisioned Grand Summoner Yuna to go.

Yuna just flat out telling someone their plan is stupid was good. Also Paine is alright.

I also like that they actually made the generic job dresspheres have individualized alterations to their designs, from specific things like the swords the warrior class uses to the general image given off matching the character's personality.

The Crusher
Aug 12, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW MUCH I LOVE NEKOMIMI CLIFFYB


Gotta second (3rd?) Delita being a great character. FFT as a whole does something I really like which is tell a very real world story with a lot of antagonists rather than 1 bad guy who is your ultimate goal from start to finish. A story of greed, politics, power struggle, and hierarchy that has many pitiable enemies as well as loathsome allies. Delita takes the world by the balls while Ramza just tries to fight for what he believes in. I think the best part about it is how grounded it is, there's no cheeky characters or comic relief to ruin the tone.

But IMO if we're judging based on that, Suikoden 1 and 2 has FF beat by a long shot.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town


I've tried many times to replay FFT because the story is good but holy goddamn it's really cheap and so many fights are so unnecessarily long. FFTA and especially FFTA2 are way better as games.

zenintrude
Apr 7, 2008

Where we're going,
we won't need eyes to see.


I was working on a giant effort post [and maybe I'll still post it eventually] but the gist of it was that the PSX Final Fantasies are the best because of pre-rendered backgrounds. Unlike FFs that employ tiles or real-time 3D, each area in a PSX Final Fantasy feels unique, full of detail and visual storytelling opportunities.

g0lbez
Dec 25, 2004

and then you'll beg

zenintrude posted:

I was working on a giant effort post [and maybe I'll still post it eventually] but the gist of it was that the PSX Final Fantasies are the best because of pre-rendered backgrounds. Unlike FFs that employ tiles or real-time 3D, each area in a PSX Final Fantasy feels unique, full of detail and visual storytelling opportunities.

Yeah I get that. As much as I love FF12 it really is just a big journey through various samey looking deserts and temples

Ramadu
Aug 25, 2004

2015 NFL MVP



precision posted:

FFTA and especially FFTA2 are way better as games.

This might be the worst opinion ever written in the internet.

Mr. Fortitude
Jul 9, 2010


Mystic Quest is the best Final Fantasy game. If I wasn't so busy doing other things, I'd write up a Zizekian style thesis on why.

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Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


The Crusher posted:

A story of greed, politics, power struggle, and hierarchy that has many pitiable enemies as well as loathsome allies.

My favourite thing in Tactics Ogre is when the random boss you just killed shows up in your lore book after the mission and it's like he was a renowned scholar with a loving wife and five children you murderer

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