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  • Locked thread
fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Jenner posted:

What happened to Final Fantasy?

It started off bad, then became good, but then got bad again, but now looks great and i want to gently caress prompto

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fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


i am tim! posted:

All joking aside, this is probably the best answer to the thread title's question.

Between this, the entirety of FF13's trilogy/meta-series, and FF14 before reboot, the Final Fantasy brand has taken a pretty healthy beating.

However, the OPs premise is still pretty uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh because it really comes down to "GAMES JUST AREN'T AS GOOD AS THEY USED TO BE" that old farts like us frequently get trapped into saying when we want to unveil just how old and out of touch we are when it comes to videogames today.

Videogames today are actually good and cool, and even the worst final fantasy's (which is a heavily subjective thing, unless you're talking about 2, which is as close to irredeemable as any game in the franchise has ever gotten) have aspects of them that attract ardent fans. Placing the blame specifically on FF7, of all games, is an argument that smacks heavily of fedorable hipster bullshit, a step short of declaring that you liked Final Fantasy BEFORE it became cool, which is horseshit because as we all know people started loving Final Fantasy after they played Chrono Trigger and learned that these guys made other games too, they aren't as good but hey Final Fantasy 7 is coming out on playstation NEXT YEAR OMG.

High school was great

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Arcland posted:

They felt the need to modernize the combat. And modern JRPG combat is garbage. That's always been my problem with newer FF games.

Traditional FF combat is dull as gently caress compared to modern videogames in general/Final Fantasy 12/Tactics so I am okay with never, ever, ever getting a Final Fantasy that plays like FF1-10 again.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Mister Adequate posted:

FF12 is a literal soporific to me. When I sat down to play it I would find myself falling asleep. Consistently. It's the most boring-rear end poo poo since FFIX. Which is also bad. Like Tactics.

MODS

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


chumbler posted:

Final Fantasy is still good is what happened op.

Though Prompto fans need to get some fuckin taste.

I will fight you

i bet you like GLADIO or even IGNIS

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Countblanc posted:

How does an actual living human being rank 5 that low

They realize that it is actually pretty boring if you don't get off on the job system's very existence

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Fitzy Fitz posted:

The jrpg formula is tired. It had to be revamped, but no one knows how to do it.

And Final Fantasy used to be about swords and monsters and magic. The crumbling, half-understood tech in older games was cool too. Now there are cars. FF15 has an Audi in it. That's not fantasy.

For most gamers it might be

The jrpg formula is tired, sure, but I don't know if I can level the blame on FF alone. One of the biggest complaints people have of ANY Final Fantasy is that it "isn't like the game I really adore!" It's basically the premise behind this entire ridiculous thread, it was the core of the other Final Fantasy thread whose title basically mocked fans' penchant for claiming that all the games suck except for the one they really like.

Final Fantasy has been changing things up on one level or another pretty much from game to game, and has dabbled in genres outside of the 'traditional' jrpg. Not always well or successfully, but I feel that part of the franchise' overall charm IS that the games differ in many ways, sometimes dramatically. There is literally something for anyone who likes jrpgs in general.

I can respect not liking the setting for FFXV, but I do think the idea of a Final Fantasy world that moved well beyond steampunk/generic-western-fantasy-as-viewed-through-Japanese-culture to be pretty interesting on paper. It's an even bigger leap than FF7 and 8 having essentially a couple megacities/a few super schools, with the rest of the world essentially being wasteland dotted by caves, dungeons, and small towns. I wanna see how it all gets portrayed outside of the demos I've played and the little footage I've decided to watch for myself.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Jenner posted:

You make some really good points but I just... disagree.

I think the core issue with your argument that FF7 is the ruiner of the franchise is pretty much encapsulated by this sentence right here.

You're repeatedly given evidence as to why some of your assumptions and personal fanfiction about FF7 is off or incorrect in some way, and you basically disregard it as either not being "good enough" or not mattering anyway because it doesn't fit into your internalized narrative of What Brought Final Fantasy Down.

Like, read this bit of yours again:

Jenner posted:

Okay first of all no it's not. The game literally starts with you joining a terrorist organization to oppose an evil corporation to save the planet. And ultimately ends with you defeating the big bad (who I agree, does not come out of nowhere) to save the planet.

Second I fail to see how FF7 is more about something than FF4, which is about opposing an evil empire and seeking redemption from your sins before ultimately becoming about saving the world from a big bad that comes out of nowhere. Or FF5 where you are sent off right away to protect the orbs/crystals to keep the world safe ultimately leading to a battle with a big bad that came out of nowhere to save the planet. Literally the only difference between these two and FF7 is that you know who Sephiroth is before you fight him.

FF7 starts off with the conflict between a terrorist organization as an "evil corporation" only because this is how it is initially portrayed. FF7 spends more time in one central city than most FFs up to that point spent time on whole continents and townships found therein. From the start up until we actually leave Midgar, all Shinra ultimately appears to be is just a really nasty corporation in control of the city. You can't really rely on Barret or even Tifa to be telling you the truth about everything because our perspective, like Cloud's, is ultimately limited. Cloud himself is acting the part of Mercenary, and is trying to be above it all (and fails to pull this off almost immediately). Barret and Tifa are both TERRORISTS who are trying to coerce him into deeper involvement with their movement, after we see that when their first bomb goes off, it takes parts of other neighborhoods with it. We don't need to have an explicit cutscene to tell us that other people are being caught up in this, the brief glimpse of debris crushing homes near the first bombed reactor is enough.

When we actually get to Shinra HQ itself, after many trials, we start to get the serious impression that Shinra isn't "just" a corporate entity with an oversized security force. It's an army, with walking tanks, attack helicopters, giant robots, genetically enhanced super soldiers. Throughout the Midgar portion of FF7, we are told that there is a greater part to this conflict, but ultimately we don't SEE it until we get to Shinra HQ, and even then its nothing compared to what we get after leaving Midgar.

When we leave Midgar, from that point forward we are shown almost location by location that Shinra IS the evil empire gone corporate. They have taken over a coastal city for the sole purpose of putting together the biggest artillery piece EVER just to bombard those NotJapanese Savages for not accepting the Shinra way. Fort Condor is under constant siege throughout the game, and if you fail them everyone in that place is killed.

Mining towns left desolate and decayed from Shinra abandoning them. Everywhere we go, we see the effects of Shinra's war (it was a war) on the entire world. Broken homes and dreams, many of which belong to the actual party members. Worse yet, it feels distinctly as though the war has already been lost. Despite setbacks by the end of the Midgar portion of the game, Shinra is still nominally in control of pretty much everything.

You're barely even the underground resistance after the war was lost by the rest of the world. Not only was it lost, most of the world has given up entirely on changing things. Its a struggle just to maintain the status quo that doesn't involve having Shinra nuke you with massive artillery or send a small army to clean house. Your quest doesn't even focus on these things for a long while because ultimately our Goal is Sephiroth/Jenova. It's not until Aeris is killed that we see the game heavily shift away from a fairly personal quest for some vaguely fulfilling vengeance. From that point on it does become clear over the course of the story that this is MUCH bigger than the personal wrongs that every person of the party has suffered from Shinra or Sephiroth.

I think that your claims about FF7 aren't coming from a particularly intellectual perspective specifically, because like most people have doing in this thread deliberately or sarcastically, you are overlooking, dismissing, and misinterpreting huge swaths of the game for the sake of presenting your own arguments, while also playing up events from the game you do love and countering any criticism of it with a perfunctory you're wrong. I know that this is peak goon school of internet debates here, but come on.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Shageletic posted:

So what's good JPRG-wise then?

I'm old as gently caress and only have a PS3.

Trails in the Sky part 1 and 2 can be played on pretty weak PCs, PSP, and Vita, Trails of Cold Steel part 1 and 2 are available on PS3 AND Vita. They are all connected, but you don't have to play Sky in order to GET Cold Steel. Playing one series will likely enhance your enjoyment of the other when you get the references.

Cold Steel 1, in particular, makes me think that Falcom looked at Persona 4's school drama, and said OH, YEAH?! And this was accompanied by some sort of awesome synthrock power chord and there may or may not have been doves or explosions that represent the part where the writer started writing the bits of Cold Steel 1 where poo poo gets real.

Play Persona 3/4 again.

The Trails games ought to come with a caveat, though. Incredibly slow burn at the start of a given Trails series, and I've seen a lot of people bounce off of them pretty hard because of it. But, Trails has tons of world building and LOTS of focus on developing your party into likeable individuals you can empathize with, to a degree that FF really doesn't do. Everyone has an FF that they CLAIM does this (see Jenner writing screeds about FF6 has great character development that no other game afterwards approaches, see my own defenses of FF7's characters), but none of them come close to what the Trails games try to do. Whether or not they strike your fancy is entirely personal.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


guts and bolts posted:

Front Mission 3

I didn't mention this because I treat it more like Turn Based Strategy than a JRPG.

FM3 is great though. It was available around the same time that Gundam Wing was airing in the US, and like Gundam Wing it features a cast of completely loving insane people given access to giant robots who then go on to influence POLITICS, with explosions. There's a super soldier plot in there, too.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Nanomashoes posted:

Actually, you say the game is for 13 year olds, but when I was 13 I would have said the game looked gay.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Nanomashoes posted:

Conan loved The Witcher 3 though.

Nobody should take you or Conan o'Brien seriously when it comes to videogames.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


thorsilver posted:

It never ceases to amaze me that so many people on this forum actually like FF XII. The story is sleep-inducing and derivative, the main character is pointless, the combat was automated away rather than made actually fun; I hated virtually everything about that game and still consider it one of the biggest disappointments in gaming. To be fair it looks gorgeous though.

12 is good, though

thorsilver posted:

It's doubly annoying to me given that the best FF game, Tactics, was set in the same world and Ivalice deserved a better game.

Have you heard the good news about Vagrant Story?

Vagrant Story exists, and is the best Menus-In-Ivalice simulator since Final Fantasy Tactics!

thorsilver posted:

IMO there's a better question than the OP: why the gently caress aren't we getting more FFT games?!

There was only one good FFT and all three sold far less than contemporary mainline games. The first on PSOne sold leagues better than the other two, which is also why it got a re-release on Vita and Mobile. I think at best the two Advance titles get mentions in other games, and ironically FF12 provides the most connections to Advance with the races that appeared in those games and not in the original.

There's also a cellphone game that died in like one year in Japan.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Nanomashoes posted:

TFW you get trolled by a guy having a different opinion than you on the PSX JRPG Xenogears.

TFW Nanomashoes cheerleads a guy for doing a better job trolling this thread than they did.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Oxxidation posted:

Jokes and backbiting aside, Xenogears won a lot of accolades at release because that was Squaresoft's time to shine and most JRPG's that went on for more than one disc were greeted by wild applause anyway. Even disregarding that, it's still an interesting and ambitious mishmash of basically every high-profile anime/mecha trope of the nineties, and that plus the way it pushed Evangelion's incoherent Gnostic iconography to the hilt gave it a unique aesthetic that still stands out today.

I still think it fell flat because it never really gelled any of those different examples of homage together. People are still divided on Eva's quality, but good or bad it's still pretty simplistic at heart - the robots and Christian symbols are just window dressing for a great big soap opera about depression and the pain of connecting with others. Xenogears has a little bit of that, but it also has fantasy animal-people racism, and pseudo-Buddhist ideas of reincarnation, and guns that shoot piloted robots as bullets, and whatever the hell ChuChu was, and fantasy Nazis, and critiques of the Church, etc, etc, etc, culminating in a boss fight against the actual Demiurge after which you chat with the actual God. It makes the story compellingly weird while it holds together, but it doesn't hold together for long, and I don't blame a lot of people who find it tedious (me included). It's 70+ hours of pointing at a plot element, going "this thing came from something else!" and then moving on without doing anything with it.

A big part of why none of this stuff gelled together is that the last act feels rushed as gently caress, incomplete, and kept introducing things for us to be concerned with well past the supposed point of no return was reached hours before.

In a world where game designers have unlimited time to dedicate to every project, and gamers themselves are patient and understanding with regards to game development delays and setbacks, the last disc of Xenogears would have gone plot point by plot point, connecting them and resolving them by necessary. I think the LEAD UP to Disc 2 was fine, even as absurd as it was, because it still felt like I was being set up for some sort of amazing if not ridiculous conclusion. The game would also be 300 hours long, maybe.

Instead, well, we got what we got. It's hard to go back to try and play through today (for myself anyway), but I'm glad that we got it. It's very much a product of the time and of Square at its peak.

Seriously. The Playstation 1 and 2 years of Square/Square-Enix will never be seen by any developer, Japanese or otherwise, ever again. They released JRPGs, Action RPGs, Tactical RPGs, Brawlers, Fighting Games, a goddamn SHMUP. Nobody out there quite had what Square had in its heyday, it wasn't all good, but it was definitely earnest.

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fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


THE AWESOME GHOST posted:

Sunning is like a square enix historian and his posts need to be collected into a book

Sunning is one of the most knowledgeable posters in Games when it comes to the actual business and historical side of the modern videogames industry, if not the most knowledgeable, period. I certainly learn a lot from his posts around here.

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