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Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXJFbsQBvLw

What happened to Final Fantasy?

I remember the old games very fondly. I thought they were alright. Some of them were even good (some were really good.) Is that just nostalgia? Lower expectations of quality because I was an idiot child? Were FF games always bad?

In my opinion, in the early days of Final Fantasy each new game in the series built and improved off the ones preceeding it. Square seemed to learn from each game and make the next game better/more interesting in various ways. The constant improvements that came with each successive game meant that the world, the story, and the characters got more developed and interesting as the series progressed.

I could take the time to talk about every Final Fantasy. I could ramble on about the aspects of every game and how they grew and improved with each game but that would take forever and be so the TL;DR is that the series started with composite characters with no real drives or any personality to speak of, a vague world, and an ultimate evil that came out of loving nowhere in FF1 and developed into a game with rich, well developed characters with their own drives and unique personalities, a deep and detailed world and history, a largely comprehensible story and plot, and a known villain with a history and purpose in FF6+

So what happened to Final Fantasy? Well, here's my diagnosis.

I feel the series really started to get its bearings with FF4 and reached its pinnacle with FF6, which is the best game in the series (fight me IRL.) And that the series loses its vision, goes off the rails, and completely jumps the shark with FF7. (There is a brief reprieve with FF9, the third best game in the series, before it goes right back to being either aggressively mediocre or downright lovely.)

If Final Fantasy VI is the first best and Final Fantasy IX is the third best what's the second best?
Final Fantasy Tactics.

Anyway, I think Final Fantasy VII is what happened to Final Fantasy. I could write up a long rear end rant about how FF7 not only sent the FF series into the toilet but also did irreparable damage to virtually all video games as a whole but I'm just going to keep it short and say that Square focused most of its energy and resources on making FF7 look as pretty and impressive as possible and the story, plot, and characters were obviously an afterthought. The game suffered for it, it really was not good and if you think it was you are wrong.

But, despite being not that good, FF7 was a commercial success. And because of FF7's massive popularity and profitability Square, along with almost the entire video game industry, embraced the trend of prioritizing graphics over actual substance with frankly depressing results.

Since FF7, the whole series has been getting progressively worse with each new game (with the exception of FF9. Also I have heard some good things about the MMO but. ) And Sqaure have made amazing design choices like padding out their games by adding in collectathon nonsense and nearly impossible to get ultimate weapons (gently caress dodging lightning.) Adding entire sections of "game play" solely designed to waste time. Where you spend actual hours of your life having no fun, doing nothing important, and not progressing the plot whatsoever. And adding in hours long battles, not boss battles, regular loving battles.

And Final Fantasy XV is shaping up to be the ultimate expression of meaningless, time wasting, unfun nonsense.

But hey, if you've got the time, check out Brainweasel's LP of FF X-2 because she makes a not good game look really good.

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Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Vermain posted:

Could you please explain this in more detail? What about the story, plot, and characters were "obviously an afterthought"? I question this specifically because the fondest memories people have about this particular game are the story and characters. All of the FF7 core cast remain highly recognizable and marketable to this day, to the extent that FF7 is the first FF game that is getting a remastered version because of that popularity. That would indicate to me that the story and characters both had broad appeal to the target audience of the FF series.

Well, first I have to acknowledge that for many, FF7 was not only their first Final Fantasy it was their first RPG period. It might even have been their first game. There is a lot of nostalgia, a lot of rose-tinted glasses, a lot of fondness for this game. Many people love FF7. It is considered by many to be one of the greatest games ever. It ranks among the lists of top ten games of many people and reviewers and such. All these people are wrong.

I mentioned in my OP that FF7 was huge commercial success that influenced almost the entire video game industry for the worse so I won't rehash that. This is gonna be long but I'm gonna talk about the game and why it is not good. To set an unfair environment I am going to be comparing it to FF6 which, I remind you, is the best game in the series. (I can talk about this too in a later post if you want.)

FF7 starts off with a beautiful cutscene crawl into Midgar but doesn't tell you anything about what's going on. You begin by exiting a train and killing some mooks without any idea of why. In FF6 you are given a lovely snowy march and a blurb about the world. Two NPCs explain that Terra is a witch but they are safe because of the slave crown and you set off to gently caress Narshe. In one game you know why you are doing what you're doing, in the other you're flailing about.

Eventually you learn you're siding with AVALANCHE (caps necessary) but Cloud does not seem particularly passionate about this. He's pretty apathetic. Shrugging and saying, "I don't care." Am I supposed to be interested and excited in the terrorisms when my POV character can't be hosed? Why is he even doing this if he does not give a poo poo? It's especially jarring when Barrett is super rousing and passionate and Cloud is just meh. In FF6 Terra is asked to join the Returners and she is very conflicted. She doesn't want to be used for war any more. She talks about her insecurities and concerns. She's genuinely worried that the Returners might be no more ethical than the empire. (Showing quite a bit of political insight imo.) A talk with Bannon convinces her and she is pretty resolved afterwards despite her insecurities. In one game the POV character cares about what they're doing (and thus I care and am interested) in the other the POV character couldn't care less.

In general the whole pre-Aeris part of the game seemed to lack drive. Sure you do a terrorism and fight a boss and that's fun but Cloud just doesn't seem into it.

Once you meet Aeris things pick up. Cloud still doesn't care about anything but Aeris is charming and emotive so you care about Aeris. It helps that she's in danger and poo poo. In FF6 Terra is kind of brought along but she asks questions and seems engaged and interested. The game evokes a sense of caring, especially after Kefka lights Figaro on fire in search of Terra.

Once you get outside of Migar the world isn't particularly interesting (except for the giant snake, that thing rules.) You go to cities but few of them really stand out. (Junon, the Golden Saucer, the city with the minigame where you have to fend off invaders, and the city with the loving runaway train come to mind.) There are few interesting areas (I guess the dome was cool but...) the NPCs have their opinions but few express any anxiety about Shinra or the planet. In FF6 South Figaro alone is pretty much "gently caress the empire." Several other NPCs in other towns expressed concerns about or support of the empire. Zozo was really fun and interesting. Thamasa had a dark secret, Vector was cool. And one village was storing Locke's comatose/dying girlfriend in it. Also the Veldt, the haunted forest (suplex the train!) And haunted Doma and Owser's house in the World of Ruin were all really fun areas.

I am being incredibly forgiving when I say that the story is "okay." I really don't want to go too deep into detail but Cloud is an unreliable narrator and Hojo is the evilist character in the game and somehow we're supposed to learn that Jenova is Sephiroth's mother and also a calamity from outer space but I don't remember learning that from the game so much as reading it on Internet forums. Aeris acts as the exposition, telling you about the old race she's a member of and about Holy, Meteor, and the life stream. Rather than trickle information out to you, slowly revealing it to you as you naturally learn about it, broad swaths of story are dumped on you from time to time in one giant plot sandwich. Information that could have been revealed to you when you interacted with related things often didn't come up until far later and some plot just came out of nowhere. In FF6 you learn about the Espers and the War of the Magi (and the magic users left after the war) and the Goddesses as you either encounter them or are told about them. Plots are hinted at and the only things that technically come out of nowhere are Kefka killing Leo, betraying Gestahl, and messing with the statues on the floating continent (loving up the world.) And those are not only meant to be twists and surprises but everyone could see Kefka was gonna backstab the emperor.

Those aspects alone make for a pretty meh game but the worst offender in FF7 is the characters. I cannot stress this enough, almost every character in this game is either unlikable or uninteresting. If they are lucky, they have something deeper going on beneath the surface but that is very rare. You might remember liking them but they were not that good. Let me show you:
Out of nine characters only six of them have any reason to continue adventuring with the group after their plot line, if they even have one, is resolved. One of them is the main character, one of them is killed, one seeks only revenge, one has a noble but kind of sad reason (loyalty and unrequited love,) and two just really care about the planet. The rest could have been temporary characters and one's whole arc, if it could even be considered as such, could be completely removed from the game with absolutely no effect on it.

Compare to FF6 where only Umaro and Gogo had no reason to adventure with you and of those two only Gogo had no plot or point in the game. (Also Umaro technically has a reason to adventure with you, it's just lovely. Mog orders him to. And Gogo has no plot or point because they're a secret character.)

Come on, Jenner the characters are not that bad.
Cid is an alcoholic failure of a pilot who emotionally and physically abuses his romantic partner and just wants to go to space.
Cait Sith has absolutely no character or point whatsoever until he reveals he's really in league with Shinra and betrays you. (Does he even face any consequences for that? I honestly don't remember.)
Yuffie is a ninja who steals all your magic and literally has no other plot or purpose. (She's the one you could remove entirely from the game.)
Vincent has the most plot and back story, as he has been endlessly hosed over by Shinra, but he is unengaging and uninteresting.
Tifa is only there because she loves Cloud. (Also tits.)
Cloud has no personality. He is ambivalent and just does not give a gently caress about anything. (Fan boys and future media will make him so dark and brooding and conflicted but imo there really isn't much justification for it. He only really gets emo when he meets the shades at the dome, learns he's a sham, and wheelchairs it up in life stream village. And even then I don't think he really dwells or agonizes over it for particularly long.)

That's 6/9 where one dies.

The left over characters are:
Barrett, who is basically Mr. T but with a gun arm and an adoptive daughter. However he has layers because his daughter belonged to his former friend and there's a lot of angst there.
Red XIII, a lion-dog turned lab experiment who is the son of a hero who saved his community (but who he believes was a coward until shown otherwise.)
And Aeris/Aerith, who is literally the plot hook of the game. She's the last surviving member of the old people of the planet and it's a big deal. She has the only way of stopping the end of the world. Who even knows what would have happened in this game if Cloud never encountered her as he has no impetus to do anything more than gently caress around with AVALANCHE (caps necessary) and would not have seen the greater threat to the planet (Sephiroth and meteor) without Aeris showing it to him. She's the one that dies.

That's 4 "good" characters (because I like Tifa) and one of them is killed.

FF6 has 9/14 good characters (assuming you don't like Mog, Gau, Realm, Umaro and Gogo.)


TL;DR: FF7 is bad. Its story is meh, its world is mostly meh, and its characters are pretty ick. But it's okay, you can like a bad thing.

Jenner fucked around with this message at Nov 16, 2016 around 00:00

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Neron posted:

I'm the one guy who actually liked 8.

8 is better than 7 (fight me) and Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Hitlers Gay Secret posted:

I'm replaying FFX-2 right now and I have to say I like it a lot more now than I did when it first came out. Sure, having to follow along with a guide so I don't miss anything for 100% is stupid as hell, but other than that it's fun.

I originally didn't like X-2 but Brainweasel's LP changed my mind. It's surprisingly feminist. It's now a guilty pleasure of mine.

Mister Adequate posted:

FF12 is a literal soporific to me. When I sat down to play it I would find myself falling asleep. Consistently. It's the most boring-rear end poo poo since FFIX. Which is also bad. Like Tactics.

Woah get a load of this guy. I bet he likes Chrono Cross.
I also kinda liked Chrono Cross.

guts and bolts posted:

Final Fantasy 7 is good though and if you disagree you're wrong

Final Fantasy 6 on the other hand is in fact kinda bad, as is Final Fantasy 9, whereas Tactics is probably the high point of the entire franchise

Um, no. FF7 was just not good. Cloud was just a big uncaring nobody and Sephiroth was garbage. Meanwhile, FF6's main protagonists were both female (and rad as hell) and the villain actually achieved his goal.

FF9 takes everything good about every Final Fantasy and puts it in one game. It also features the only Dragoon to not betray you (I think.) It's okay, wrong opinions are welcome here.

guts and bolts posted:

FF6 is overrated and cited because it builds credibility to say it's the best or a personal favorite. Graphics don't matter and the score is pretty good, but the cast is unwieldy and boring and bad, the gameplay lacks FF5's crazy customization options in terms of character classing and is generally boring and bad, the writing is overwrought and boring and bad, the central antagonist is little more than a meme (and is boring and bad) - basically FF6 is kinda boring, and kinda bad. It's not the worst game in the series, but most Finals Fantasy are pretty bad themselves and so FF6 has a relatively low bar to clear. FF7 is not without problems, but nine out of ten times, if someone is talking about how great 6 is while decrying how bad 7 is, they're being contrarians for the sake of appearing more enlightened than the brainless masses that consumed 7 in such volumes. If only those cretins could appreciate ~true art~ like the opera house scene, then maybe videogames would be better

FF7 actually holds up pretty well, warts and all, and is both dramatically more fun to play with the Materia and Limit Break systems and is able to focus more on the characters, some of whom are really great.

Here's a quick list of Finals Fantasy you should like if you want to like good Finals Fantasy and good video games writ large:
Final Fantasy Tactics
Final Fantasy XII
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy V

Wouldn't pretentious jagoffs who just want to seem enlightened and superior cite FF4 as the best game then? You know, since it's the first game in the series that has any significant quality. Check mate.

FF6...is good. Most of the characters are good. On the surface Kefka is just a psycho clown who just wants to watch the world burn but if you talk to Cid and Leo they tell you he was experimented on and had a pretty poo poo life. You might even feel for the guy until you remember he is a remorseless war criminal who does not even have the defense of 'just following orders.'

And again, two female protagonists and the villain actually succeeds.

FF5 is also good though! And I liked FF12 but holy gently caress Vaan was literal poison. He was just such a lovely character that the rest of the good characters suffered for it. Also it's the game where the time wasting started. I still remember hours long quests where nothing of value was done.

And FFT is art.

Sixfools posted:

It makes me sad the artist who worked on FFT last gig was drawing cards for a lovely mobile game called Fantasica

Maybe if they could draw noses this wouldn't have happened.

chumbler posted:

Final Fantasy is still good is what happened op.

Though Prompto fans need to get some fuckin taste.

Lies.
I am not going to buy or play FF XV unless it has some gay kissing. I have standards!

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Endorph posted:

cloud isn't a big uncaring nobody, he's an awkward goofy hick who's trying way too hard to be cool but winds up saying poo poo like 'let's mosey'

edit: also jenner are you a dude

I am female.

Once you know the whole story of Cloud, once it is revealed that he is not awesome SOLDIER man McCool you can look back on Cloud's behavior and you can come to the conclusion that you have. That Cloud is a giant goob who wants everyone to think he's cool so he plays up this super nihilist edge lord shtick. Every time you play the game after this you can respond to every time Cloud says something like, "I don't care." With a chiding, "Oh Cloud, you dork."

But my first time playing this game I did not know Cloud was just putting on airs. And all throughout Midgar and for quite awhile after it he was just so, ""

I admit, I was used to Tales of JRPG protagonists. Who are often super virtuous white knights that go off passionately about the power of friendship and poo poo. Guys that just care.

I was really put off by Cloud.

Ciaphas posted:

I've wanted to give FF7 a replay for a while, haven't beaten it since shortly after its release, but doofy translation/writing issues in games bug me like just nothing else can, like chewing tinfoil

I played a bit of the game today just to see if my memory of it was accurate. My revelation? The 90s were really bad. The cross dressing portion is now much more uncomfortable for me. FF7 was made in 1997, I was 15. I thought it was funny that the dudes in the gym were sassy gay stereotypes. I nodded along with the fact that you need fancy perfume and panties to appeal to guys. Those two things? Kinda ick. But the most jarring thing is the real reason why we are dressing up as a girl in the first place. It is to rescue our friend who is in peril.

Even back then I was a bit perturbed by the fact that some dude could just kidnap unwilling women off the street and lock them up in his love mansion. If you do all the subquests right and make Cloud the prettiest girl (and honestly why wouldn't you) you're greeted with an encounter where this digusting slimeball man is trying to, at best, coerce you into sex and, at worst, force himself on you. We don't get to see things from the girls POV if we don't bother with the side quests, the team just busts in there guns blazing while things are going down. But considering how things look when you bust in it's a safe assumption that that sleaze bag is like that to every woman.

At the sheltered age of 15 I was like, "Gross, this guy is reprehensible."
Now at 34, playing this game, it's a lot more alarming. Because wow that is just a really scary and dangerous situation for a girl to be in. Feminism and the awareness of the grim reality that this terrible thing that we are playing off as a joke actually happens to people has ruined everything.

But Cloud is best girl. :sparkle:

Super No Vacancy posted:

I agree that 10 is another good final fantasy

FFX was... Okay. But wow holy poo poo that whole world is sad/depressing/tragic.

Junk posted:

Super Mario RPG was the best Final Fantasy.

I know about timed hits.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

That airship sucks but that enemy design is



quote:

All claims that FF6 is actually bad.

Incorrect, FF6 is good. I hear your complaints about the World of Ruin but... I liked it. You really get to see the terror and destruction Kefka wrought. You get to see the price of your failure. I didn't mind flying around collecting my friends because it was all about having hope even in the darkest time. We can't undo what has been done, but we can stop it from continuing and we can make the best world and future we can from the ruins.

Also, this game touches on and doesn't play around with some really grim/mature stuff.
-Everything on the island you start on in the WoR is dying and despair and hopelessness is so profound that, under certain conditions, Celes will attempt suicide then find hope and this is the best version of those events. Saving Cid is for people who hate good stories.
-Terra is devastated, she is strong for the kids and wants to protect them. It is the realization that she can protect them better by stopping Kefka and make a better world for them that gets her out of her funk. Terra's whole WoR arc is about how life is still precious and still goes on even if everything is poo poo. Also, teen pregnancy prominently featured in a video game..
-Cyan's whole thing is him being cruel but kind to a woman who lost her partner. He writes her letters and sends her flowers because he knows what it's like to lose everything and he wants to spare her that. The world is poo poo enough. But as you do his quest he learns that loss is part of life and that you just have to move on. (This is something I am honestly still struggling with. )
-Gau has his own small mini-plot where you put him in a tux and introduce him to his dad and his dad still rejects him. And Gau is sad, until he remembers he has the FF6 crew. They want him and they are his family. The fact that you can make your own family is a mini plot in FF6 that becomes a loud prominent plot point in FF9. It was a message that personally resonated with me because I had a pretty poo poo family but my friends (my created family) were amazing.
-Shadow's back story is strongly hinted at. Interceptor likes Realm and will protect her, they are the only two who can wear the momento ring, the flash backs. And if you sleep in some inns and do some stuff you can learn all about him. You find out he left a friend to die like a coward. At the end of the game, he appears to choose to stay in the crumbling remains of Kefka's tower. Choosing to accept death and telling his friend he's coming.
-Strago feels he's lost it all and just bends the knee to the Kefka Cult because what's the loving point anymore. Realm snaps him out of it. And he's just like, "I was such an idiot, the world is worth fighting for. Please forgive me."
-Edgar is jerking a bunch of bandits around so he can reclaim his castle from a giant tentacle monster because he hasn't given up hope. He's actually planning on doing what Celes is already doing which is get the gang back together and stop this mess before it gets worse.

Also FF6 had a sex scene. FF6 acknowledges that sex exists and happens. Like, wow, how did they get away with that in the 90s? It was very tame, not like a gratuitous Bioware sex scene, but sex is depicted in a game. A man and a woman dance around together and the sparkles from their bodies form a baby. That was a big deal for me because I am a twat.

FF5 was really good, but it didn't really touch on the kind of mature issues that FF6 does. It's FF6's willingness to get down into the dirt (compared to other games of its era) and really look long and hard at it that makes it so good.

FF7 touches on such issues as corporations bad, environment good, death happens, scientists are jerks, and be honest with yourself. These are good messages! But there is just no comparison.

FF8 touches on such issues as, what is memory? And um... dads are incompetent goobs?

FF9 is great because it doesn't just say, "War is bad, mmkay." It shows you war is bad. With Burmicia, Lindblum and Alexandria. And I already talked about how its message of, "You can make your own family" is powerfully resonating.

And this post is getting real long but I really gotta give props to FF6, FF9 and FF10. There are so many, just so many games where a terrible awful event happens, often something really cataclysmic (and it's sometimes even your fault) and not only are the PCs just like, " welp" they just move the gently caress on as if nothing happened and it sometimes has no effect or bearing on the game whatsoever. There is no fall out. You do not rifle through the rubble for survivors or run into survivors later and it's rarely, if ever, brought up again. It might as well have just not even happened! It was meaningless drama/tragedy that is not dwelled on or rolled around in. You are just numb to it.

Pork Lift and Wateyad are playing through Star Ocean # right now and some terrible poo poo has happened (their fault) and the PCs literally just shrug and move on. They aren't even chewed out. It hasn't been brought back up yet. Nobody cares. It's like they want to have all the shock of a tragedy but none of the consequences. Because consequences are uncomfortable. This is so stupid and it really pisses me off.

FF6, FF9 and FF10 are not afraid to rub your nose in the poop. A lovely thing (or things) has happened (or is happening) and it is bad and people are suffering and look at it. Look at it! This is some good poo poo.

Jenner fucked around with this message at Nov 16, 2016 around 11:51

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Mr. Fortitude posted:

I don't get it. Why is Don Corneo being depicted as a sleazeball pimp borderline rapist and an overall awful person an attack against feminism? People like him exist in real life, sadly, and unlike Tifa and Aeris who can and do defend themselves without Cloud, are defenceless. Just because a game shows something bad doesn't mean it advocates it.

I'm with you on the Honey Bee Inn section though. That is outdated and can be seen as offensive today.

On another note, FF VII has implied sex too. One which is way less loving weird than FF VI's pseudo bestiality which was awkward as hell even when I first played it.

I'm not looking at it like that. Yes, the Don is despised and he is depicted as being just the very worst and most disgusting (as he should be) and it is really good. Tifa and Aeris are strong women who can and do take care of themselves and this is a good thing. And I never said the game advocates the kinda poo poo that goes down in Honey Bee. (If I implied that, it was not intentional.) There are a lot of good things about the Honey Bee section of the game. Don being portrayed as the worst. Gays being portrayed as good, helpful, normal people. (In the 90s, when there was a lot of gay bashing going on.) The people in the region and the Honey Bee in general not being shown in a negative light. Most importantly I don't recall anyone in the section treating Cloud's desire to cross dress with any kind of disapproval or hostility. Everyone is super supportive and helpful. These are good things.

In the Honey Bee section's defense it takes a really lovely situation that could actually happen to someone (getting kidnapped and trapped in some creep's sex mansion) and it handles it with quite a bit of restraint and respect (admirable for a 90s game.) It shows the community doing what they can to help you save your friend and shows the girls standing up for themselves. And, if I am going to advocate for games to touch on serious issues and handle them well I have to acknowledge it.

My real issues with the section, and why it made me uncomfortable, was what I stated in my post. I'll reelaborate: When I was 15 I got the message the game was sending: This is bad, the Don is bad, Aeris and Tifa rule. Now that I'm older the situation, even though it's handled alright, squicks me out because I am being a big baby and dwelling on the fact that it would be much worse for different people rather than taking it as it is. It is me, I am the problem.

I'm glad FF7 touched on an issue like this and chose to portray healthy sexuality, helpful normal gays, and a supportive community.

Regarding the section needing to be changed/updated? I'm not sure what could be done on that end. Like I said, it is handled pretty well.

Heaven Spacey posted:

You're kind of coloring Cloud with the EU brush. The whole "Heh, I'm way too cool for whatever the gently caress this is" facade drops around the time Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie get iced. He's pretty drat near his regular self by the time you leave Midgar. The cracks in his mental health really begin to show after AERIS DIES . In Advent Children, Cloud is supposed to be really detached, because he's depressed both over Aeris's death and the fact that he is dying of anime cancer. Advent Children sucks, though, so it doesn't pull this off.

I played to the point when you get out of Midgar this morning and Cloud is just not really saying much or being particularly emotive. In the beginning of the game he's all shrugs and deflections and now it kinda seems, to me, that he's just gone silent/numb. So I'm not seeing this shift to a regular self you're mentioning unless this is it? I'm not sure what you think Cloud's regular self is. He still seems kind of detached at this point of the game to me. My expectations might be higher? I don't know. I really am trying to give him a chance!

quote:

Not only is Don Corneo portrayed as a weak and pathetic individual the things he does aren't portrayed as "Ha ha isn't this funny what he is doing to women" but more "Oh god this is gross gross gross and despicable." Tifa and especially Aeris are some of the strongest female characters in the series and their handling of Don Corneo is part of that. I don't understand what, from a feminist perspective, you find so disgusting about the cross-dressing scene or Honeybee Inn. There isn't any trans hate or that sort of stuff. The gay characters are stereotypes but they aren't portrayed as bad people, and neither are the sex workers. Mukki even saves Cloud from a mental breakdown. If anything, the section normalizes sex by showing the patrons and employees at Honeybee as regular people, and showing the townsfolk of Sector 6 as all having sexual fantasies.

The Honey Bee Inn section of FF7 is a Law and Order SVU episode with a happy ending.

I don't recall saying I found the cross dressing disgusting either? There's nothing wrong with Cloud cross dressing beyond the fact that he's teased a bit and grumbles about it and even then that is acceptable. He is not cross dressing because he is a cross dresser he is cross dressing because he has to to help his friend. So he doesn't have to like it. At no point does he say, "This is disgusting and depraved." He just expresses that this is not his kind of thing, which is fine. Also at no point do the people teasing him make any kind of judgement, they're just enjoying loving with him and giving him a hard time, like friends do. And the entire community is super accepting and positive about it and beyond helpful.

And I take back my original complaint, which was the impression that girls have to get perfume and fancy panties to attract guys (the pressure on women to be sexy/attractive is not something I want pushed.) Upon reflection, especially in light of this post, the helpful NPCs are saying this [panties + perfume] is something Cloud needs to do, not because it's something necessary for the approval of all men, but because it is what they know the Don likes. Cloud is trying to trick the Don and they are just helping.

I100% love making Cloud a pretty girl.

quote:

Plenty of bad poo poo happens in FF7. Sector 7 gets crushed and Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie get killed, along with thousands of innocent people. You watch as Sephiroth goes berserk and cleans out a whole town. Hojo does all kinds of *really* hosed up poo poo. There are plenty of sidequests and story events you can fail that have dire consequences for doing so.

I'm kinda of working my way back through the game (I'm not having fun or enjoying it but I'm not sure if that's on me or the game. I'm doing my best to be receptive.) I haven't gotten to the points where poo poo really starts hitting the fan and I don't remember them well enough from when I played this game over 15 years ago. So I can't really talk one way or another about what you're saying here (give me a few days.) I don't remember you going back to Sector 7 after it gets hosed (maybe you do though, my memory is bad.) I kinda remember there being a bit of grief about Biggs, Wedge and Jesse before everyone dries there eyes and gets back to work (I think Barrett does a little memorial/funeral thing.) Sephiroth murders and burns down whole town, tragic. Later you return to rebuilt town (is it also repopulated? I recall it being abandoned.) Only Tifa, and maybe Cloud, are like "this sucks." But still, I guess it's an acceptable level of dwelling on lovely thing. Hojo does all kinds of hosed up poo poo but other than Sephiroth I don't remember any of his madness bleeding out into the world. I remember climbing the tower and getting Barrett's ultimate weapon and killing Hojo because he's an evil jerk doing terrible things but I am struggling to think of any point where his poo poo was being problems (again, excepting Sephiroth.) I remember replaying the run away train portion like a dozen times to get it right and save the big Materia. And when you fail you know it but you can just leave that hosed up village and never return. It doesn't really stick with you. And if I remember correctly the mountain village with the mini game where you fend off the invaders, if you fail that they kill the phoenix and everyone is sad but again you can just gently caress off. Perhaps I'm demanding too much but it just seems to me there is a small difference.

When you gently caress up train town and mountain town, I don't recall any proclamations that you would fix it. You just gently caress off and leave them to rot and never bother your mind with them again. When South Figaro is taken by the empire you vow to return and I think it comes up in negotiations with the emperor. At least, I have memory of Gestahl apologizing for South Figaro. (It's been awhile, I'll check an LP.) When Kefka fucks over everything it. Is. Everywhere and you cannot escape it. I recall Celes being further driven to get the crew back together after Kefka Light of Judgments the town she finds Sabin in. I don't know, it's just small little nitpicks like this. The folks in FF6 just seem to respond to and acknowledge bad poo poo better than the FF7 folks do. It might just be my bias.

quote:

Also I really don't think writing teen pregnancy is something that should be spun positively even if your partner is a genie from a magic dimension.

Teens getting pregnant is always sad and teen pregnancy legit ruins lives. But it happens, quite a bit in fact. (Though data suggests it's getting better and it's not as bad as it used to be. ) So, I don't think it's a topic we should avoid, though I do agree that spinning teen pregnancy into a positive thing is not okay (because teen pregnancy is terrible.)

If I remember correctly the teen pregnancy in FF6 happens when world is hosed and the it is used as a symbol for enduring/continuing life. Duane actually hand wrings and expresses anxiety about how hard it's going to be and wonders how they're gonna raise a child in this world. Katarin does the same, she's hopeful but not shy about saying this was a bad time. Also, Duane is totally sticking with Katarin and not cutting and running. They talk about how they're all in this together and they're gonna make it work.

It's not a sweeping condemnation, which I prefer. I'm not a big fan of vilifying teen pregnancy. Especially when it is always the mother who gets slut shamed and reviled and hardly any poo poo gets said about the father. I think, all things considered, FF6 did alright. It could have done things different but that's not the message they wanted to send. They could have done more to be really loud about how bad this was, I guess. But I like the message of making the best of things.

(Obviously Katarin should have gotten a steampunk magitech abortion but that completely derails the moral of life from death that they were gunning for. Though it is a much better way of making the best of things, haha.)

Not to derail but I personally wouldn't mind if more media focused on the effects of teen pregnancies beyond, "Yay babies! Life is so precious and beautiful!" Especially if it started following women seeking abortion, showed how challenging it is, and humanized the women. But... eh.

I think MTV had a show about teen moms? I never watched it but I heard complaints that it was glorifying teen pregnancy. Yet other people told me the general message and sentiments the mothers in the show were sending was "This sucks. It is super hard and it is not worth it." So I don't know.

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Heaven Spacey posted:

Well you never go back to Sector 7 'cause it's a pancake. The part where you're climbing up to Shinra HQ is Cloud and co. climbing through the wreckage of the disaster. Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie are minor characters, but Barret brings them up a couple times later in the game, off the top of my head I remember for sure he does at Cosmo Canyon. Nibelheim is rebuilt after Sephiroth destroys it, yeah - as part of a cover-up operation by Shinra Corp. You can actually talk with the NPCs in town and ask them things like "why does this town exist and look exactly like it did before I saw it burnt to the ground before my very eyes". Eventually after Shinra starts losing control in disc 2 one of them just outright says it was Shinra's doing.

I guess it's different. Pancaking a whole sector is monstrous but what can the party do about it but move on and try to avenge it. I don't recall if anyone was particularly aghast or horrified at the Sector 7 thing. I'll find out when I get there.

I'm more pissed with the video games that have meteors crash into the planet or mass genocides or the complete destruction of a place and nothing comes of it. Just yawns and shrugs.

In my very favorite game series, Lunar, the villain shoots down the floating city and it is terrible. You can go to the ruins and everything is hosed and the PC in your party with a connection to the city (Mia) is a mess. You really feel it. And Mia is just like, "I am going to gently caress that bastard's poo poo up!" I liked it. (In the sequel game, set like 1-2000 years into the future, that fallen floating city is still having a rough time. So props to Lunar's villain for leaving a legacy.)

Anyway, I'm a little sad that I recalled a memorial service/funeral that might not have happened. But I'm glad Barrett mentions the fallen from time to time. That's just like him. I hate when they just red shirt minor characters and no one cares. It's a pet peeve of mine.

I thought Tifa's reactions to the town were really good. It showed proper trauma and reaction to a hosed up thing. I guess it's a pretty good connection to the plot and sets tone and such. I don't know what I want. I'm the sort that has a hard time letting grief and loss go and getting over it. So when that happens (the victim/sufferer getting over it) and the whole event is just completely forgotten and seemingly inconsequential it bothers me. Just a me thing, I think.

quote:

Hojo is probably the most outright evil character in the game. He's part of a science team that discovers the dormant Jenova, and his immediate thought after they discover its potential is "I'M GONNA DO SO MUCH MENGELE poo poo WITH THIS". When his boss (Professor Gast, Aeris's father) objects, he murders him. He drugs Vincent and surgically alters his body to turn him into some kind of weird vampire. He subjects his own son, Sephiroth, to life as a child soldier and science experiment. He makes hosed up mutants out of human test subjects at the Nibelheim reactor. He tries to crossbreed Aeris with Red XIII. He almost destroys the entire planet by running wild with the Sister Ray at the end.

I forgot about the Sister Ray! Also yes, Hojo is 100% the evilist character in the entire game. And you're right, my thought that his poo poo didn't really bleed out (sans Sephiroth) appears to be wrong. Almost everything that goes wrong in this game is linked to him or directly his fault. gently caress that guy.

quote:

I can't really speak to FF6 vs FF7 on this part because I don't remember FF6 that well, but generally speaking I'll just have to disagree with you on this with regards to FF7, especially when it comes to North Corel. Barret's whole motivation for everything he does in the game comes from that town.

Barrett is an alright character. He put me off at first because he is so loudly Mr. T but then they give him some layers. I respect that. I consider him one of the few good characters in this game. But in my opinion this game only has four good characters (out of nine) and one of them dies. Barrett, Tifa, Red 13, and Aeris being good is not enough to win me over or redeem the game for me. Especially with Cid in the game. I really don't like Cid.

quote:

I think it's a little naive to say that their relationship was just kinda gonna work out because True Love!!!. But they get loving killed anyway so I guess it's a moot point. However, I have to say that portraying teen pregnancy as romantic in this way is harmful precisely because it promotes objectification of women, and specifically in the two most classical ways - young women are desirable because of their virginity, and because of their beauty. You don't "fall in love" with someone after knowing them for like a day, especially not a teenager.

I don't think I ever mentioned true love in defense of Duane and Katarin though? Also I don't remember them getting killed. I'm pretty sure Terra defeats Humbaba and saves the town and then you defeat Kefka and they're still okay. I also don't think this was a particularly romantic portrayal of teen pregnancy. What makes you think it was?

And I'm not sure how romanticising teen pregnancy (or pregnancy in general tbh) objectifies women in the way you claim (by their virginity and beauty.) Pregnant women are no longer virgins but they do often remain beautiful. It is my opinion that the romanticising of pregnancy objectifies women in the way that it diminishes them, reducing them to having value and being respected solely for their ability to bear life.

In regards to how long Duane and Katarin have known each other? I honestly don't know. All we're ever told is that they are teenagers and that they are in love. I forget how much time Cid says has passed since the Statue Incident when you wake up in the WoR. Regardless, it doesn't matter how long they've known each other because I never argued that their love/length of association was going to be the decider. If the couple are not killed (I honestly don't think they are, I would have remembered that because it would have pissed me off.) We have no way of knowing whether or not they make it work. All we know is that we leave them fully intending to give it the old college try and when we beat the game it is with a message of hope.

quote:

I think you're kinda putting your own view on this. Like yeah, It's fine that she had sex and had a kid. But she didn't then live on her own as a single mother, so arguing that it's anti-slut shaming goes a bit far I think. I guess you could say it positively portrays premarital sex and cohabitation? idk.

It is anti-slut shaming only in that there is no judgment or shaming of her. The absence of slut shaming, however, does not equal a denouncement of slut shaming.

I will agree that it positively portrays premarital sex and cohabitation, so to speak. But that is not it's primary agenda.

It is my opinion that the depiction of teenage pregnancy in FF6 is that it was a poorly timed accident that they are going to make the best of. And I must repeat that a wicked steam punk magitech abortion would have been freaking sweet. Ultimately the person or people who wrote this storyline wanted it to be about new life in the face of overwhelming adversity. I respect that.

guts and bolts posted:

FF7 was good for Reasons.

You make some really good points but I just... disagree.

However, I am willing to agree that there are things about FF7 that are good. And you listed some good examples. Let's look at each one.

quote:

FF7 is actually about something [more than just saving the planet]

Okay first of all no it's not. The game literally starts with you joining a terrorist organization to oppose an evil corporation to save the planet. And ultimately ends with you defeating the big bad (who I agree, does not come out of nowhere) to save the planet.

Second I fail to see how FF7 is more about something than FF4, which is about opposing an evil empire and seeking redemption from your sins before ultimately becoming about saving the world from a big bad that comes out of nowhere. Or FF5 where you are sent off right away to protect the orbs/crystals to keep the world safe ultimately leading to a battle with a big bad that came out of nowhere to save the planet. Literally the only difference between these two and FF7 is that you know who Sephiroth is before you fight him.

So again, FF6. Which is about opposing an evil empire and finding out about yourself and ultimately leads to you liberating a post-apocalypse world from a mad god (a villain you knew about) because you failed to stop him and he won. loving phenomenal.

So no, FF7 is not more about something in comparison to many other FFs.

quote:

Linearity and driven story.

You can definitely tell the story you wanna tell the best if you don't have to account for player choices, agree. But if you are going to commit your players to a story you should do your best to make sure it's a good one.

quote:

FF7 is about experiencing profound loss. And not everyone gets a happy ending deal with it chumps.

First off, I give mad props to FF7 for not giving everyone a happy ending. Because it's true, they didn't and that takes some loving balls.

But the characters in FF7 are not the only ones who dealt with profound loss. Rydia (FF4) dealt with profound loss, Cyan, Mog, Locke, Edgar, Sabin and Setzer (FF6) dealt with profound loss and later, everyone, all 14 characters (well, maybe not Gogo) deal with profound loss that they are responsible for when Kefka burns the world. In short profound loss is not special not unique to FF7.

The only thing that really sets the suffering characters in FF7 apart from the suffering characters in other FFs is thst the characters in FF7 handle their angst poorly, which is cool--flawed characters are cool. This is a point in FF7's favor, not that they deal with loss but that they suck at it. It's good.

quote:

The Materia system rules!


Though I hated needing to junction the all materia to be able to hit multiple targets.

quote:

Limit breaks!

Super fun and their mainstreaming into the full series meant I got to shoot a dog at my enemies in the next game. 🖒

I think that was all of them? Having a couple good things does not make a game good. Metal Gear Solid 4 had fun stealth and custom armor and fun guns and it was real bad. The good things about FF7 are good but the game is, on a whole, not good.

Jenner fucked around with this message at Nov 16, 2016 around 20:45

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


guts and bolts posted:

FF9 sucks because its fans are pretentious insufferable twats, its characters are bad, and its story formulaic.

Wowzers. I don't know what to do about your negative view of fans of the game. I like to believe that people like a thing genuinely and for good reason. I don't presume they feign affection for something for some kind of status. But they might? I don't know, I'm okay with people liking and defending most things I don't like. I'll disagree with them and give my reasons but ultimately media is superficial and subjective.

As such, I don't judge or begrudge the people who like FF7 and FF13 because they usually have good reasons like, Sephiroth is cool and gosh I sure do love corridors. ()

So you're just as welcome to disagree and dissent with my assessment of why FF9 is actually quite good:

First off, Final Fantasy has a formula that they seem to follow: There is always the heroes, there is usually a princess or other female royalty/VIP (often named Sara), there's often orbs or crystals, there's often an evil empire/corporation, and either the world is in danger of conquest/destruction and only you can save the world or humanity is in danger of extinction/enslavement and only you can save humanity.

Most FFs stick to the formula. As such, FF stories are rarely complex or grandiose. They are not high literature. They're meant to be entertaining and usually are.

So FF9's story of a princess' uncle hiring a group of thieves masquerading as a theater troop to kidnap his niece so that her mother doesn't suck all the summons out of her to use as WMDs to conquer the world is not exceptional. But it's not bad.

The fact that the mother turbo fucks Burmicia, Cleyra and Lindblum and that poo poo sticks is pretty great.

The fact that the villain is an arms trader is pretty neat.

The fact that the man behind the man is trying to save his world at the cost of yours is a good twist.

The twist that Zidane and Kuja are members of the same manufactured race? Eh okay.

The end boss out of nowhere? Silly.

Regarding the characters? I like them. Only Quina and Amarant stood out as being unexceptional. Eiko was obnoxious but she has a good arc.

Vivi and Steiner are the best. Freya is good too!

And FF9 was a really pretty game.

It's music is the best.

FF9 was good, drat it.

quote:

Tiers

6 > Tactics > 9 > 5 > 4 > 10 = 12 > 8 > 7 > 13
The rest are not even worth listing.

guts and bolts posted:

You give up on FF9 because the game is mechanically lifeless and has nothing fun about it whatsoever except watching Vivi turn colors in Trance mode

Nah, but the combat does take too long.

quote:

FF7 is special because all the characters are suffering.

So am I playing this lovely game, lol.

But seriously, having all the PCs with you because life is pain or whatever is all well and good (look at Planescape Torment!) But I like characters that care so that I can care. That's why I like Barrett, Tifa, Red 13, and Aeris. They care. They often seem like the only ones that care.

quote:

DREAMS ARE DEAD AND EVERYTHING SUCKS

*glances about uncertainly* If you say so....

If I wanted to experience a reality where everything is poo poo and nothing matters I'd just live my loving life. I play video games to have fun, enjoy myself, and escape that.

But there is a certain value to reminding and telling people that everything is suffering.

The truth is I'm just not seeing it. I'm just not seeing how suffering and failure and broken dreams is driving every character.
Vincent? Definitely.
Tifa? I mean, I saw it more as, "when I was a child I wanted this childish thing. But I'm grown up now and I'm gonna save myself."
Red 13? His big issue seems to be that he thinks his dad was a coward who betrayed his people. It doesn't have anything to do with him. What dreams of his are shattered?
Cid? Awful human being, just wants to go to space, sure I'll accept that as a broken dream.
Barrett? Wanted something else, didn't get it, scarred by it and making the best of it. He's haunted and agonized though so sure suffering and shattered dreams here too.
Cait Sith? I still have no idea what this guy wanted and why he was here. As far as I can tell he literally exists just to betray you. What the gently caress is his broken dream?
Yuffie? You mean to tell me that Yuffie is sad because her country is a tourist trap hell hole? It has ALWAYS been that way. Her dream was to fix it? How? By stealing all your materia and being a brat? I'm not buying it.
Aeris? What was her broken dream? She seemed to just love the planet and take her responsibility as a Cetra seriously.
Cloud? Was Cloud's dream to be awesome SOLDIER man McCool? And so he faked it until he maked it? But it's not real and so broken dreams? Feh alright.

So... I see Cloud, Barrett, Cid, Vincent for sure. Maybe Tifa but I am skeptical. The rest are real slim. 4-5/9, that's not bad. It's not all of them though. Help me out here?

quote:

I don't know how to summarize this without being disrespectful because you appear to be saying that FF7 has a deeper layer than what's on the tin and the character arcs deeply influence the game and that FF4 does not and is only about Cecil's search for redemption. This isn't true.

FF4's characters each had character development that had a prominent role in the story beyond just Cecil's redemption. And their plot lines weren't all about failure, suffering, and the death of dreams (which I see as a good thing, I like a little diversity.)

Almost every Final Fantasy character has a back story that you address in the game and that influences the game. The stuff going down with the characters is prominent in the games. Every games' characters are motivated by that back story. Suffering as the universal binder is not so special. But It's neat and I approve.

In regards to FF4 being just what you see on the tin and no layers whereas FF7 is different? I'm not so sure. I'm just not seeing FF7 as any more complex than FF4. I've been replaying the game off and on all day and this deep profound misery you talk of seems really understated so far. Again, I'm not sure what I want or need from this game to get this message that you are saying it has. All the characters endlessly agonizing and moaning and groaning over their traumas sounds like a really lovely not fun game. I guess the occasional, "Ugh, this sucks, what can I do about it?" Or "Ugh, this sucks, I'm gonna do something about it!" Would be nice. Barrett seems to be the only character like this.

FF4 is about doing terrible things, turning traitor, seeking redemption, getting betrayed, with dwarves, a revolving door of friends getting killed, a hunt for vengeance and fighting a boss out of nowhere after going to the moon (at least Cecil gets into space, eat poo poo Cid!) So it's not a complicated game. Neither is FF7. Which is about joining a terrorist organization, sticking it to the man, a friend getting killed, a hunt for revenge, getting betrayed, being a loving liar, having a meltdown and saving the world from a known enemy.

I guess in the way that the FF7 protagonist is an unreliable narrator who succumbs to the angst and has to be pulled out of the void whereas other FF protagonists largely remain stalwart and hopeful in the face of adversity kind of sets it apart. (But I remind you, Celes tries to kill herself in the WoR. The difference is you can't stop Cloud from breaking down, but you can prevent Celes' breakdown.) So I'll give you that. It is kinda cool to see someone just give in to the suck and be resolved by good support and friendship. The power of friendship, corny and hamfisted as it is, is one of my favorite things about anime and JRPGs.

It's all just so subjective, though. I'm really not seeing anything that makes FF7 qualitatively better than FF6 (I'm not so sure about where it stands in relation to FF4 now though so congratulations.) To me, there is just no comparison. FF6's characters actively suffer, struggle, and agonize. They convey it better to me than FF7's characters. The FF6 characters lose hope, doubt themselves and they bounce back just like the FF7 characters. If we just reduce it down which characters are better FF6 features nobody particularly objectionable but FF7 features a character that emotionally and physically abuses his romantic partner and no one calls him out on it so... yeah.

quote:

Cloud is an interesting protagonist.

When?
Seriously when is Cloud an interesting protagonist?

So again, I am playing back through the game right now. We are currently climbing up the stairs in the Shinra building because it's funnier than the other option. I'm enjoying hearing the characters quip and chat to each other. I am actually seeing a bit of personality from Cloud as he commiserates with his friends. If this keeps up and he keeps engaging I'll drop this argument but I don't remember that being the case (we shall see.)

Still, I have to say that this is the most fun I have had in this game so far and I am literally just climbing stairs and listening to Tifa and Barrett complain. (Maybe FF13 was right about the corridors!)

quote:

FF7 good because the plot is pretty good, the characters are good, the Materia system is amazing, and Limit Breaks are good. Good narrative elements + great mechanical elements = a good game, generally, but 7 also has a really good score and had, at the time, groundbreaking graphics. It's a Good Game™

Plot good? Nah. Kinda wonky, fed to you in chunks, isn't terrible. I don't think it's good.
Characters good? 4 of them are (one dies.) And I really don't like one character.
Materia system good? Yes. Needing the all materia is bunk though.
Limit breaks good? Yes. You have no idea how much I love shooting a dog at people.
Narrative elements good? I recall being mologued at by Hojo, Rufus, and Sephiroth. Lectured by Aeris and her mom (and Bugenhagen.) Big heaps of plot dumped down on me from nowhere. But I'm playing the game again so we'll see.
Mechanical elements good? They're not bad!
Music good? Music great!
Graphics good? For their era? Most definitely.

You don't need my permission but it's okay, it's okay that you like this thing. There are many good things about it. I just don't think it's as good as you think it is. I'm not seeing what you've seen but that's all on me. I'll keep looking for it.

I'm not sure you'll change my mind but I'm giving FF7 a chance. I'm not sure if I'm trying to change your mind. My intent is only to disagree and show why I don't like it and think it's crap. I don't think I'm trying to convince you to not like it and think it's crap. If it seems like that, I'm sorry.

It's okay. We can like our trash garbage anime games for children.

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


fivegears4reverse posted:

I think the core issue with your argument that FF7 is the ruiner of the franchise is pretty much encapsulated by this sentence right here.

You're repeatedly given evidence as to why some of your assumptions and personal fanfiction about FF7 is off or incorrect in some way, and you basically disregard it as either not being "good enough" or not mattering anyway because it doesn't fit into your internalized narrative of What Brought Final Fantasy Down.

So, first off, I acknowledge a few things that are good about FF7 and conceed points and arguments. I am not just sitting here going, "Nuh uh" about everything. But, yes, I do point out how other arguments/defenses of FF7 either aren't happening, aren't special/unique, aren't good enough, etc. I can understand the frustration of what might seem like me being a purist who is moving the goal posts around and being difficult. I don't see what I'm doing that way. I am saying things like "X is just like Y" or "X is like Y but Y does it better" because, to me, these things are true. When someone says "X is special because it did thing." I am not trying to be a bitch when I point out that Y did the same thing and it was no more or less special.

But there are things about this game that are really good and that I really like. In fact, I am now convinced FF7 is better than FF8 and will adjust my tier accordingly. I don't think my refusal to like FF7 equates to the good things about FF7 not mastering to me. But... I guess they are not good enough for me. I'm not sure what to do about that.

I am willing to consider thar the problem might just be with me.

However, I don't think that when somebody acknowledges some of the points someone has made about a subject/thing are good but still do not agree with that person for their own reasons they should be responded to with, "Gah, you suck! You just said it was good! Your opinions about it being bad are invalid because you said things were good!"

I said in my last post that I'm replaying the game and actively looking for the stuff other people are pointing out and still not seeing it. I repeat, so far I am not seeing all this complexity and grandeur that other people are pointing out/talking about.

I don't want to have to get so entrenched in my opinion about a video game I don't like that I have to reject everything about it that is good in order for my criticisms of it to be valid. I think getting people who disagree with you about a thing to acknowledge the thing has done some good is progress. They might not think the thing is good like you want but they no longer think the things is pure poo poo. This is good. Pushing people to just wholescale reject everything is bad. This is just my opinion though.

quote:

All this poo poo about FF7! Shinra loving everywhere, ruining loving everything! Just so much stuff!

I'm not sure I ever said that the oppressive and destructive reach of Shinra was downplayed. FF7 makes it very clear that Shinra sucks, you see its reach and influence poisoning pretty much everything. But, again, in other games the lovely evil empire isn't just twiddling it's thumbs being evil. I don't remember what goes down in FF4 all that well but I'm pretty sure the empire keeps invading people and carpet bombing places with the red wings and doing war crimes. I remember a whole lot more of FF6 however. The empire invades towns and cities and takes them over, Kefka poisons and wipes out Doma. I'm not sure if FF7 depicts Shinra as more lovely, more threatening and more bad than other FFs do their evil powers. In my opinion, they all get equal attention. You can think it's better in FF7, it's cool.

quote:

I think that your claims about FF7 aren't coming from a particularly intellectual perspective specifically, because like most people have doing in this thread deliberately or sarcastically, you are overlooking, dismissing, and misinterpreting huge swaths of the game for the sake of presenting your own arguments, while also playing up events from the game you do love and countering any criticism of it with a perfunctory you're wrong. I know that this is peak goon school of internet debates here, but come on.

Look man, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know what kind of "intellectual perspective" you are looking for. I am replaying the game, I am actively looking for this good poo poo people swear is there, I'm not seeing it. I am not intentionally or maliciously misinterpreting things, I am trying my best and I can only go by my experiences. I mean, AFAIK all we can do to evaluate a games' quality is consider events in the game and the experience of the game on their own merits and then compare them to other games. This is what I'm doing and I'm not sure what more you want from me.

I'm sorry I don't like a thing you like? I honestly wish I got this wonderful experience you all talk about. I feel like I missed out and got cheated. I'm gonna keep playing the game and see how things go.

Hokuto posted:

You blaming FF7 for the downfall of gaming is stupid. Other games had good graphics. WTF do you want from them? You will never be happy. Also I liked FF7.

Forgive me if this is over simplifying your message but this post is already so huge. I'll try to make this quick.

A lot of games were released around the time of FF7 and they all had good graphics. At the time, there was a lot of contention over whether FF7 or OoT was better. But it was at the time of FF7 that Square and other companies started to focus more on graphics and less on substance which reduced the quality and enjoyablity (totally a word) of games as a whole. (Note, my opinion.) And FF7 was heavily marketed in both Japan and America as, "drat it's so pretty!" Perhaps I am wrong to blame FF7, perhaps this is just the way the industry wanted to go. But FF7 was super profitable and I can't imagine that didn't influence the move.

I don't mind a game being pretty. Hell, I like a pretty game. I just want more from my games than pretty graphics. I want an entertaining story that grips me and good characters I can care about (or at least love to hate.) You can do that and have good graphics (FF9) and you can do that with basic sprites and poo poo (Undertale.) You can even say next to nothing openly about your world or its lore and opt to hide everything in item descriptions and still have an interesting story, engaging world, and good game (Dark Souls.)

If you're saying my desire for appealing and developed characters and an enjoyable (not even good, just enjoyable) story is unrealistic then that is just sad. My standards, however, might be too high.

However, I would like to provide evidence to the contrary of this by reminding you all that I liked Chrono Cross. (I know, I am the worst.)

And again, it's okay for you to like FF7. It's 100% okay. I'm here for you.

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Nanomashoes posted:

FF XIII just turned the artists loose with practically no direction and they flailed about making the prettiest poo poo ever. Lots of it was just thrown away and the rest of it was just cobbled together with no rhyme or reason.

See, I kind of like the idea of letting artists with a vision set the tone and building from that but I just don't know if that's realistic or would work.

Super Giant Games says they hired Darren Korb to just write a soundtrack for a game and then they made a game based on/inspired by that soundtrack. Bastion was really good!

I think it can not only be done, but done well. And maybe a bit of cooperative creative interaction between the story writers and the artists could lead to some good poo poo.

The only thing I really liked about FF13 is how loving cool the enemies and environments looked.

Hokuto posted:

I would encourage you to read my follow-up post on this page, which I assume you'll get to eventually. Basically, I think you're asking for the wrong things from the wrong series. I think Dragon Quest would be way more your style, judging by the kinds of things you like.

Final Fantasy used to be this thing. It used to do the things I liked. But I guess you're right and it's time to move on.

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Heaven Spacey posted:

Second, by romanticizing teen pregnancy I mean depicting it as something desirable. The beauty myth perpetuated by pretty much every culture basically states the most "valuable" women are those that are sexually attractive, youthful, and virginal - teenagers. But I guess the characters involved in this scene were minor NPCs anyway, so I feel like this can all go out the window!

I missed this post somehow! I thought I read all the posts! I didn't want to not respond to you after you responded to me but I strongly agree that culture feeds a message that the most "valuable" women are attractive, youthful, and virginal.

I don't want to get off on a discussion that has nothing to do with FF so I'll just say that the fact that making something appear sexy/sexually appealing has the result of that thing selling more/better has lead us to a place where we are sexualizing children and it is gross and I don't like it!
Now I am going to just be so old and complain about how kids dress these days (I'm not a fan) and how there are little to no clothing options available for people who don't want revealing clothes!



Blargh! My point is sexualizing teenagers sucks but I don't think that's what's going on in FF6 and I'm glad we're dropping it!

Thank you for talking about the Sector 6/Honey Bee section with me! It was very helpful!

quote:

I'M loving STOKED FOR FF15!

Noooooo! Pull up!
Please come back to this thread and tell me about the game after you've played it.

Nanomashoes posted:

Yeah but there was no vision. Read that big quote I posted.

I read, I know.

Hokuto posted:

Dragon Quest 8's 3DS remake/port is coming out this coming January, and it promises to be really good. There are also very beautiful mobile ports of DQ1-3 with SNES-style high quality sprite graphics and really nice English writing. If you want the older experience, you could try the NES Dragon Warriors, or try the regular DS ports of 4-6, all in English. Sadly, the SNES era of DQ games never made it here in English, but their remakes did, on the DS. It's a great series, and the Dragon Quest megathread loves to welcome new players with open arms. DQ Builders is also great and just recently came out, but that's more of a Minecraft game than a traditional RPG so YMMV.

Hmmm...

Dragon Quest Megathread posted:

Art by Akira Toriyama.

Noooooo!

Video games are dead.
(But seriously, I'll give the games a shot. Thank you for the recommendation. I've been kinda liking the Fire Emblem series too.)

quote:

FF sucks because all the old people who made the games you liked left.

Oh...

quote:

No, FF sucks because you are old.

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Sazh is really good and deserves to be in a better game.


guts and bolts posted:

I should clarify my point about "profound loss" - I do not personally find FF7's story profound and its surface reading is super bad, but the losses that the characters experience are profound in the sense that they are "very great or intense."

Ah ok. So profound but not profound.

I've just been leveling up and not advancing the plot today but I'm liking Tifa more and more.

I still don't like Cloud and I'm not having fun but the experience is not miserable either.

What ever happened to the FF7 LP Elentor was doing? Did it actually finish?

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Gologle posted:

There is a game series made in the 90's called Lunar, by a bunch of guys in a studio called UbiXseed Designs. They blow the water out of every single FF game, you should play them instead.

I have played the Lunar series and I 100% agree that it loving rules. I strongly recommend the Lunar series to anyone ITT who shares my opinions/preferences about games. Because, while Lunar doesn't really get into the kind of deep existential stuff FF does it is genuinely fun game. The only problem is you have to be pretty forgiving with the NPC dialog as you will be experiencing Working Designs' very dated and very notorious translations. There's some pop culture references strewn about here and there, some gay bashing, some sexism, some NPCs are just terrible people and some are super creepy perverts. But if you can look past all that, the games are incredibly charming.

The original games came out on the SegaCD and were titled Lunar: The Silver Star and Lunar: Eternal Blue. I'm not sure how hard or easy it is to find/get/play copies of these games. The games were remade and released on the Playstation as Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete and Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete. Copies of these games are collectors items and sell for over $100 on online auctions. The remakes are notable for the fact that SSSC adds and changes quite a bit of the content in the game from the original for some reason. (Probably in an effort to make it more JRPGy. As the old fogey I am, I think these changes reduced the quality of the game.) Eternal Blue Complete changes, removes, and adds some scenes as well but the game is largely the same as the original.

Again, if you haven't played these games try and find a way to because they are really something special. All the characters are great (except Nash.)

Barudak posted:

Lunar Dragon Song

Stop just making games up!
Lunar Dragon Song doesn't exist, it doesn't exist.

Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


I think the Tales of games do combat best. It's active combat where both the enemies and the heroes at at the same time. No waiting for your turn, just smash poo poo.

Same with Dark Souls. Everyone plays by the same rules.

Aeris just died in my game so we'll see if this character shift in Cloud is real.

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Jenner
Jun 5, 2011
Lowtax banned me because he thought I was trolling by acting really stupid. I wasn't acting.


Mr. Fortitude posted:

Final Fantasy 8 is a game I'm not overly keen on but even that had heart by telling a story about love and hatred. Squall becomes a better person because of love of Rinoa whilst Ultimecia fails because she is a product of hatred, having spent her whole life persecuted against by others out of fear.

Rinoa is Ultimecia though.

quote:

So I guess that a lack of coherent vision and lack of a story that resonates with someone who worked on the games are the problems with the newer Final Fantasy games. Sometimes the games just need to be lighthearted fun, like Final Fantasy 5 or World of Final Fantasy and that's perfectly fine. But the more serious games tend to be all over the place both in gameplay and narratively.

I agree. Final Fantasy has just seemed to stop telling a coherent and/or entertaining story. (It has also largely failed to make decent characters.)

TheHoosier posted:

FFT is the best. Even when it went full tilt Evil Jesus and demons it was still the best of the bunch

Can we just talk about how Delita is just the greatest and best ever? This guy comes from next to nothing and is just poo poo on by almost everyone and he just goes straight up chessmaster and beats these arrogant fuckers at their own game. (I'm with you Delita, kill the loving rich.) He uses everyone and yet even in using Ramza he makes an effort to be decent and helpful because he rightfully sees Ramza as a tool he can use and point in the right direction for him to reap the benefits. The after credits stinger where Delita has Everything He Ever Wanted but his wife loving stabs him because she has found him out and has had it with his manipulative poo poo just filled me with so much vindication and sadness. I was cheering and shaking my head within moments of each other. Because he was so good.

Delita is just so good you guys.

Jenner fucked around with this message at Nov 24, 2016 around 00:07

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