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Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



First they let the guy that made the good d&d inspired turn based fantasy games make a terrible movie and then they fired the guy that made the serious political dramas based on historical events and they wound up having to give directorship over to the fashion reject so he could make his game about a beautiful perfect pink haired woman who becomes real and marries him.

The problem with the latest FF games is the new directors have a very narrow range of interests that reads: Video Games, Fashion, Anime. The older guys had interests outside of games, Matsuno was big into medieval European history, Sakamoto liked tabletop games and mythology. Now the games are just so up their rear end in anime bullshit that nothing looks interesting or real or makes any sense anymore.

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Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



For FF 13 the developers had no outline of the game and the artists spent years cranking out thousands of art assets that were hastily thrown together a month before launch with the barest amount effort spent to make enemies match the environments that they are found in. The plot was cobbled together and rewritten to match the levels that they had made that worked. Nobody had any idea what the battle system would actually be until like a year before launch. All of this is from the developer's own words and I can assure you any enjoyment people got out of that game was completely accidental.

I heard 13-2 and 13-3 were OK but man, 13 was such a massive pile of poo poo that it turned me off the series forever after Matsuno's dismissal.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



wizard on a water slide posted:

13-2 has some issues with things like difficulty curve, but it's way more of an RPG than 13 was in terms of like... stuff to find, systems to experiment with, and options. The core gameplay is nearly identical. If your biggest problem with 13 was that it felt like a series of hallways intermittently broken up by cutscenes, it may be worth playing.

Lightning Returns is pretty much its own animal entirely, and is the best game of the three. You should try it.

The story stuff in both is absolutely wackadoo batshit insanity that makes 13 look restrained and well-considered by comparison.

I'm not going to buy them. I got older and the series isn't for me anymore. Instead of writing a million paragraphs about that I'm just going to accept it.

But man, I still have no idea how people got any enjoyment out of FF13. 90% of it was boring corridors with incomprehensible cutscenes. Even the level up system was a corridor. There were normal battles in that game that took 15 minutes for a 5-star time with absolutely no tactical decision making in them once you figured them out. It was just so awful.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



Alris posted:

I enjoy asking people who liked FFX but hated FFXIII how a game all about running down a single corridor for 40 hours with painfully unlikeable characters and shitawful side content is good while another game dedicated to running down a single corridor for 40 hours with painfully unlikeable characters and barely any side content is bad just to see their flustered justification. XIII is everything bad about X concentrated to its purest form. Both games suck, and X's only saving grace is it gave us X-2 which revelled in its stupidity and let you beat the poo poo out of a Tidus lookalike (and didn't have the OG model until the very end anyway).

Both games are still better than anything with the words "Kingdom Hearts" in the title.

e: and if Xenoblade Chronicles had chocobos, changed the Nopon race to be called Moogles, had a name change to Final Fantasy XV and a Square-Enix logo on startup, it would have sold way more and been hailed as revolutionary and a return to form. Goddamn that was an amazing game.

I never played FFX but I imagine I would not like it if I did. My favorite FF games are 1 and 12 (and tactics). I played 1 on the gameboy because I was born after the SNES.

There's nothing more I can say about FF13 that wasn't said in Tim Rogers' 18,000 word review of it which is good and insightful if you take the time to read it:
https://web.archive.org/web/2016053...tton.net/?p=630

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



It's long and sometimes digressive yes, but every sentence and paragraph makes complete sense and he understands the game on a level that I think very few people do.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



The most important part is this, I think:

quote:

A recent story on Kotaku.com supports our hypothesis. You don’t have to click: we’ll explain it. A producer of Final Fantasy XIII explains that there was “enough discarded content” from Final Fantasy XIII to make a whole other game. The “content” in question is mainly levels — game-play areas. That’s a real, huge red flag, right there. Seeing as the “levels” or “areas” in Final Fantasy XIII are first and foremost venues for monsters to appear, and seeing as how monsters are selected for how niftily they clash against the background graphics — seeing as how the majority of the minor in-game cut-scene dialogue consists of main characters discussing things no more detailed than “What are we going to do?” “We have to survive.” “We have to fight.” “We have to fight . . . them.” it’s quite pitifully obvious that none of the scripted dialogue or level events had anything to do with the player characters’ current location.

This is the kind of thing that we, as a marketing / PR person, always tell game companies to never, ever, ever say in interviews. Like, there’s enough levels to make another game? That means that they spent huge amounts of time making levels that they weren’t going to use. That’s because (believe us on this one) the overall arc / scope of the story wasn’t fixed early enough in the development: the areas that were eventually actualized as levels by artists (judging by our complete playthrough of the game, we’re going to say there weren’t actually any “level designers”) were originally conceived by checklists drawn up during regularly scheduled brainstorming meetings. “Fire level”, “Ice level”, et cetera.

Seeing as most of the levels in the finished game lack any kind of sense of common sense, or even one-word-summaryable background art gimmicks, we can surmise that the artists themselves were in charge of thinking of the “themes” for the backgrounds, and then actualizing them via a series of rough drafts and object asset requests.

In short: they had no idea what the game was about. Tetsuya Nomura designed characters, some other artists designed some other characters, some other artists still designed huge amounts of enemy-like robot-ish machine-things, some other artists flung together lavish architecture inspired by lifetimes of playing Final Fantasy VII and longing desperately to work on a Final Fantasy game — though, of course, if they did, they’d do something kind of different. Then someone came in and was like “btw dudes, the game is about this”. Then someone was like, “Oh, i guess we don’t need that dinosaur island part, or that part on the moon.” Owning up to “enough cut-out levels to make another game” is pretty much admitting “yeah, we lacked focus from the very start; we had close to no idea what we were doing.”

Our conclusion is that throwing artists at something doesn’t make a game. You need some actual honest-to-god directorial control. We’ve played all of this game, and then some, and we realize that it had no directorial control. The story makes no sense. The characters talk in nonsense nonsentences. They can’t speak ten words without three of them being some made up thing. You know how, when you say “Ballerina” over and over again the meaning of the word totally evaporates and you’re left giggling for a second, forgetting your age, your name, your birthday, your phone number? That’s what all of Final Fantasy XIII is like, as a narrative experience. It’s a euphoria compounded by the dread of, even for a second, having no identity.

If you don't want to read the whole thing but want the thrust of it.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



Hokuto posted:

The guy literally complained that you can't see enemy HP totals when you get Libra right from the start of the game. He didn't know it existed, from what I could gather. I'm no ardent defender of FF13, but come on.

He knows it exists because he talks later in the article about how useless of an ability is because 1: the health bar 2: your AI teammates will automatically find out the enemy's weaknesses at the start of the battle and strengths and your actions will be automatically selected based on those and their current class.

e: what chumbler said too, the complaint is more a part of a larger complaint about how every number that pops up, both for damage and max health is completely incomprehensible and useless, because the only thing that really matters is the break bar

Nanomashoes fucked around with this message at Nov 17, 2016 around 07:48

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



If you manually select every command in a battle FF13, or even the majority of them, holy poo poo you are some kind of menuing god capable of dealing with unceasing tedium. The battle gameplay in that game is paradigm shifting at the right times and letting auto battle do the grunt work of hitting attack 6 times in a row. You can't manually select actions for the other two members of your team anyway, so no, you can't manually select your own actions as much as you want.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



Jenner posted:

See, I kind of like the idea of letting artists with a vision set the tone and building from that but I just don't know if that's realistic or would work.

Yeah but there was no vision. Read that big quote I posted.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



marshmallow creep posted:

Why do they keep making games for 13 year olds? I am not 13 anymore!

FF4's main characters were mostly in their 30s. It was aimed at kids, but it could appeal to anyone because the design philosophy was to make a good game first and worry about marketing later.
Now the main character is absolutely not allowed to be an adult, everything has to be run through a marketing team to make sure it has an appeal to X demographic, and most importantly, the games are not good. Hope this helps.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



Actually, you say the game is for 13 year olds, but when I was 13 I would have said the game looked gay. Who the hell is FF15 for? Who wants to play a boyband road trip game that is also an in depth RPG where you fight a boss for 72 real time hours? The game just doesn't mesh, stylistically or conceptually. I have no idea who the audience for it is, and I don't think Square does either, because I think it was designed piecemeal and every little individual part was signed off on but not the product as a whole.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



Mr. Fortitude posted:

Stop listening to Conan, a man who doesn't even like RPGs and shittalks WRPGs equally. Besides which, the 72 hours was a mistake, they meant 72 in-game hours and FF XV's ingame clock doesn't operate on a 1:1 scale with real life.

Conan loved The Witcher 3 though.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



Veib posted:

Cecil is 20, Kain is 21, Rosa is 19.

e: The only playable character in his 30s is Yang.

Hmm, weird. I remembered them as being older. Probably because they acted like adults and had consistent motivations.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



thorsilver posted:

It never ceases to amaze me that so many people on this forum actually like FF XII. The story is sleep-inducing and derivative, the main character is pointless, the combat was automated away rather than made actually fun; I hated virtually everything about that game and still consider it one of the biggest disappointments in gaming. To be fair it looks gorgeous though.

It's doubly annoying to me given that the best FF game, Tactics, was set in the same world and Ivalice deserved a better game.

IMO there's a better question than the OP: why the gently caress aren't we getting more FFT games?! The last thing the world needs is another open-world RPG with bad combat mechanics IMO, we're definitely lacking for good SRPGs on consoles though.

It has a huge, mostly open world that feels real. There's tons of sidequests and optional content, secret areas, etc. The plot is actually good, even though the main character is kind of lame, the combat is the same as any other Final Fantasy but with the ability to remove the busywork, which is good.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



TFW you get trolled by a guy having a different opinion than you on the PSX JRPG Xenogears.

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Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



Mirthless posted:

I got the impression throughout FFXII that Ashe was supposed to be the main protagonist and somebody at Squenix objected at the last minute and insisted on putting Vaan in to keep boys invested or some poo poo

He really is just terrible

It was Basch but yes, and it's suspected to be one of the reasons why Matsuno quit/was fired.

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