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Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


Um, actually, FF7 owns and is good, FF6 is yawn-inducing nostalgiaware.

Mandatory Assembly posted:

I played Final Fantasy Tactics for the first time a couple of years ago and found it to be an utterly tedious grind fest for autists. If that's the best game in the series then they should burn it all down.

It's kinda hard for a first-timer but if you just experiment with the classes and have coherent team compositions you shouldn't really ever lose. Like, just take "Beefy guy, beefy guy, healer, guy who can hit at long range, support guy with status effects". You shouldn't really ever need to grind unless you get stonewalled by a certain boss at the end of ch3. And by "shouldn't need to grind" I mean "I save before I move anywhere on the map when I play this game because I don't wanna do any random encounters, and I don't take any unnecessary actions in story fights to grind for XP/JP". Just make sure all your guys have Gained JP UP and that covers it.

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Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


I'm doing it, I'm going in. Hold my soylent.

Jenner posted:

Once you know the whole story of Cloud, once it is revealed that he is not awesome SOLDIER man McCool you can look back on Cloud's behavior and you can come to the conclusion that you have. That Cloud is a giant goob who wants everyone to think he's cool so he plays up this super nihilist edge lord shtick. Every time you play the game after this you can respond to every time Cloud says something like, "I don't care." With a chiding, "Oh Cloud, you dork."

You're kind of coloring Cloud with the EU brush. The whole "Heh, I'm way too cool for whatever the gently caress this is" facade drops around the time Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie get iced. He's pretty drat near his regular self by the time you leave Midgar. The cracks in his mental health really begin to show after AERIS DIES . In Advent Children, Cloud is supposed to be really detached, because he's depressed both over Aeris's death and the fact that he is dying of anime cancer. Advent Children sucks, though, so it doesn't pull this off.


quote:

At the sheltered age of 15 I was like, "Gross, this guy is reprehensible."
Now at 34, playing this game, it's a lot more alarming. Because wow that is just a really scary and dangerous situation for a girl to be in. Feminism and the awareness of the grim reality that this terrible thing that we are playing off as a joke actually happens to people has ruined everything.

Not only is Don Corneo portrayed as a weak and pathetic individual the things he does aren't portrayed as "Ha ha isn't this funny what he is doing to women" but more "Oh god this is gross gross gross and despicable." Tifa and especially Aeris are some of the strongest female characters in the series and their handling of Don Corneo is part of that. I don't understand what, from a feminist perspective, you find so disgusting about the cross-dressing scene or Honeybee Inn. There isn't any trans hate or that sort of stuff. The gay characters are stereotypes but they aren't portrayed as bad people, and neither are the sex workers. Mukki even saves Cloud from a mental breakdown. If anything, the section normalizes sex by showing the patrons and employees at Honeybee as regular people, and showing the townsfolk of Sector 6 as all having sexual fantasies.

quote:

FF6, FF9 and FF10 are not afraid to rub your nose in the poop. A lovely thing (or things) has happened (or is happening) and it is bad and people are suffering and look at it. Look at it! This is some good poo poo.

Plenty of bad poo poo happens in FF7. Sector 7 gets crushed and Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie get killed, along with thousands of innocent people. You watch as Sephiroth goes berserk and cleans out a whole town. Hojo does all kinds of *really* hosed up poo poo. There are plenty of sidequests and story events you can fail that have dire consequences for doing so.

Also I really don't think writing teen pregnancy is something that should be spun positively even if your partner is a genie from a magic dimension.

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


IcePhoenix posted:

I mean, FF VII has pseudo bestiality (or at least the intent for it) as well.

I've said for a long time that the reason SE kept avoiding remaking FF VII is because they didn't want people to replay it and see how bad it actually was.

The only thing outright bad about FF7 is what a rush job the script translation was. There are some incredibly important story elements that aren't given enough screentime, such as that in Disc 2 it is revealed to the party in a single line of dialogue that they have actually been chasing Jenova the entire game and not Sephiroth, meaning they've been being playing into Sephiroth's hands the entire game up until this point. It definitely lessens the impact a bit. FFT is also guilty of having a bad translation, but it still has a decent story. It isn't really until FF8 that Square got their poo poo together with translations. I'm honestly a bit excited to see if FF7R can capture the spirit of the game rather than the spirit of what public perception of the game is (Read: Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children Cloud).

Also in Vincent's backstory Sephiroth's origins are explained, with Hojo seducing Lucretia and getting her pregnant. Her pregnancy is directly mentioned because Hojo shoots Sephiroth up with Jenova cells while he's still in the womb.

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


I'm glad we agree on the Sector 6/Honeybee segment actually being positive overall. I played FF7 for the first time when I was like, ten, and I wonder if it kinda helped contribute to me being relatively tolerant today. vv

Jenner posted:

I played to the point when you get out of Midgar this morning and Cloud is just not really saying much or being particularly emotive. In the beginning of the game he's all shrugs and deflections and now it kinda seems, to me, that he's just gone silent/numb. So I'm not seeing this shift to a regular self you're mentioning unless this is it? I'm not sure what you think Cloud's regular self is. He still seems kind of detached at this point of the game to me. My expectations might be higher? I don't know. I really am trying to give him a chance!

I remember Cloud as being a big rear end in a top hat trying to impress everyone up until the plate falls, at which point he takes on the leadership role from Barret ("To me it looks like a shiny golden wire of hope!"). That's what I mean by the "real" Cloud- he cares about people and wants what's best for his friends. He's absolutely mentally unsound at this point, however - He's hearing voices, having flashbacks, his memory is full of holes, and he doesn't seem to be sure why. Due to this uncertainty, he still isn't really himself. Aeris is his rock, and she supports him. She sees through the exterior he's constructed. Aeris is the strongest, most mature and self-assured character in the game, and as soon as she's gone Cloud goes completely to poo poo. Tifa tries to help, but she's almost as broken as he is, and can't really do much. She changes a lot too, though, and both she and Cloud become much stronger people by the end.

quote:

I'm kinda of working my way back through the game (I'm not having fun or enjoying it but I'm not sure if that's on me or the game. I'm doing my best to be receptive.)

I can identify with this, I've tried playing through FF6 like four times and the furthest I've ever gotten before getting too bored to continue is the Floating Continent.

quote:

I haven't gotten to the points where poo poo really starts hitting the fan and I don't remember them well enough from when I played this game over 15 years ago. So I can't really talk one way or another about what you're saying here (give me a few days.) I don't remember you going back to Sector 7 after it gets hosed (maybe you do though, my memory is bad.) I kinda remember there being a bit of grief about Biggs, Wedge and Jesse before everyone dries there eyes and gets back to work (I think Barrett does a little memorial/funeral thing. Sephiroth murders and burns down whole town, tragic. Later you return to rebuilt town (is it also repopulated? I recall it being abandoned.) Only Tifa, and maybe Cloud, are like "this sucks." But still, I guess it's an acceptable level of dwelling on lovely thing. Hojo does all kinds of hosed up poo poo but other than Sephiroth I don't remember any of his madness bleeding out into the world. I remember climbing the tower and getting Barrett's ultimate weapon and killing Hojo because he's an evil jerk doing terrible things but I am struggling to think of any point where his poo poo was being problems (again, excepting Sephiroth.)

Well you never go back to Sector 7 'cause it's a pancake. The part where you're climbing up to Shinra HQ is Cloud and co. climbing through the wreckage of the disaster. Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie are minor characters, but Barret brings them up a couple times later in the game, off the top of my head I remember for sure he does at Cosmo Canyon. Nibelheim is rebuilt after Sephiroth destroys it, yeah - as part of a cover-up operation by Shinra Corp. You can actually talk with the NPCs in town and ask them things like "why does this town exist and look exactly like it did before I saw it burnt to the ground before my very eyes". Eventually after Shinra starts losing control in disc 2 one of them just outright says it was Shinra's doing.

Hojo is probably the most outright evil character in the game. He's part of a science team that discovers the dormant Jenova, and his immediate thought after they discover its potential is "I'M GONNA DO SO MUCH MENGELE poo poo WITH THIS". When his boss (Professor Gast, Aeris's father) objects, he murders him. He drugs Vincent and surgically alters his body to turn him into some kind of weird vampire. He subjects his own son, Sephiroth, to life as a child soldier and science experiment. He makes hosed up mutants out of human test subjects at the Nibelheim reactor. He tortures Cloud and Zack after the Nibelheim incident, and orders them to be killed when they escape. Zack sacrifices himself for Cloud, which causes Cloud, who already suffers from massive feelings of guilt and failure, to just reject his own identity and substitute Zack's, so Hojo is also responsible for why Cloud is so messed up. Hojo tries to crossbreed Aeris with Red XIII. He almost destroys the entire planet by running wild with the Sister Ray at the end.

quote:

I remember replaying the run away train portion like a dozen times to get it right and save the big Materia. And when you fail you know it but you can just leave that hosed up village and never return. It doesn't really stick with you. And if I remember correctly the mountain village with the mini game where you fend off the invaders, if you fail that they kill the phoenix and everyone is sad but again you can just gently caress off. Perhaps I'm demanding too much but it just seems to me there is a small difference. When you gently caress up train town and mountain town, I don't recall any proclamations that you would fix it. You just gently caress off and leave them to rot and never bother your mind with them again. When South Figaro is taken by the empire you vow to return and I think it comes up in negotiations with the emperor. At least, I have memory of Gestahl apologizing for South Figaro. (It's been awhile, I'll check an LP.) When Kefka fucks over everything it. Is. Everywhere and you cannot escape it. I recall Celes being further driven to get the crew back together after Kefka Light of Judgments the town she finds Sabin in. I don't know, it's just small little nitpicks like this. The folks in FF6 just seem to respond to and acknowledge bad poo poo better than the FF7 folks do. It might just be my bias.

I can't really speak to FF6 vs FF7 on this part because I don't remember FF6 that well, but generally speaking I'll just have to disagree with you on this with regards to FF7, especially when it comes to North Corel. Barret's whole motivation for everything he does in the game comes from that town.


quote:

Teens getting pregnant is always sad and teen pregnancy legit ruins lives. But it happens, quite a bit in fact. (Though data suggests it's getting better and it's not as bad as it used to be. ) So, I don't think it's a topic we should avoid, though I do agree that spinning teen pregnancy into a positive thing is not okay (because teen pregnancy is terrible.)

If I remember correctly the teen pregnancy in FF6 happens when world is hosed and the it is used as a symbol for enduring/continuing life. Duane actually hand wrings and expresses anxiety about how hard it's going to be and wonders how they're gonna raise a child in this world. Katarin does the same, she's hopeful but not shy about saying this was a bad time. Also, Duane is totally sticking with Katarin and not cutting and running. They talk about how they're all in this together and they're gonna make it work.

I think it's a little naive to say that their relationship was just kinda gonna work out because True Love!!!. But they get loving killed anyway so I guess it's a moot point. However, I have to say that portraying teen pregnancy as romantic in this way is harmful precisely because it promotes objectification of women, and specifically in the two most classical ways - young women are desirable because of their virginity, and because of their beauty. You don't "fall in love" with someone after knowing them for like a day, especially not a teenager.

quote:

It's not a sweeping condemnation, which I prefer. I'm not a big fan of vilifying teen pregnancy. Especially when it is always the mother who gets slut shamed and reviled and hardly any poo poo gets said about the father. I think, all things considered, FF6 did alright. It could have done things different but that's not the message they wanted to send. They could have done more to be really loud about how bad this was, I guess. But I like the message of making the best of things.

I think you're kinda putting your own view on this. Like yeah, It's fine that she had sex and had a kid. But she didn't then live on her own as a single mother, so arguing that it's anti-slut shaming goes a bit far I think. I guess you could say it positively portrays premarital sex and cohabitation? idk.

Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at Nov 16, 2016 around 19:45

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


guts and bolts posted:

cool so I guess I'll effortpost

...

Final Fantasy VII is good and hopefully the remake is based purely on the base game instead of the flanderized nonsense that the mini-franchise of FF7 eventually became

This is a great post and I agree with 100% of it, especially on your literary analysis..

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


fivegears4reverse posted:

They realize that it is actually pretty boring if you don't get off on the job system's very existence

lmao gently caress u buddy.

Here's my tier list, in chronological order within their tiers:

I HAVE A BROKEN BRAIN TIER:
11

TIER:
5, 7, T, 9, 12

GOOD TIER:

1, 8, 10, 10-2, 13-3, 14

I DON'T REALLY THINK THEY'RE BAD BUT DON'T ENJOY THEM MUCH IN COMPARISON TO THE REST OF THE SERIES TIER:

4, 6, 13

DIDN'T PLAY TIER:
2, 3, 13-2


Guts, I really strongly disagree with your classification of FF9's characters as lifeless. While it's true that the game doesn't do enough with Freya and Amarant, the game world as well as the characters have a great deal of love and characterization put into them. Also, you're right that the story is a fairy tale and lacks depth, but it is brimming with charm and detail. How can you not love Vivi and Steiner? Other than that, the last boss basically being The Concept of Death Out of Nowhere is dumb, but the actual villains have fine motivations for their actions.

Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at Nov 16, 2016 around 20:05

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


Jenner posted:


I don't think I ever mentioned true love in defense of Duane and Katarin though? Also I don't remember them getting killed. I'm pretty sure Terra defeats Humbaba and saves the town and then you defeat Kefka and they're still okay. I also don't think this was a particularly romantic portrayal of teen pregnancy. What makes you think it was?

And I'm not sure how romanticising teen pregnancy (or pregnancy in general tbh) objectifies women in the way you claim (by their virginity and beauty.) Pregnant women are no longer virgins but they do often remain beautiful. It is my opinion that the romanticising of pregnancy objectifies women in the way that it diminishes them, reducing them to having value and being respected solely for their ability to bear life.

First off, aaaa sorry I was thinking of the scene in FF6 where the lady and the esper spin around, shoot sparkles, and a baby appears.

Second, by romanticizing teen pregnancy I mean depicting it as something desirable. The beauty myth perpetuated by pretty much every culture basically states the most "valuable" women are those that are sexually attractive, youthful, and virginal - teenagers. But I guess the characters involved in this scene were minor NPCs anyway, so I feel like this can all go out the window!

I'M loving STOKED FOR FF15!

Razakai posted:

XI had the most compelling plot of any game - the war of the original Japanese players reacting to the gaijin invaders by spamming 9/11 ASCII art and trying to murder you with overlevelled crabs.

Honestly my favorite part about FFXI (other than dying over and over trying to get through Chains of Promathia back in the day) was how each server was large enough that you didn't know everyone on it, but small enough that everyone was interconnected. Even if you'd spoken to a player before, you'd see what linkshell they were in, and odds were you knew several people in that shell. The endgame community in particular was incredibly tight-knit and also steeped in teenage nerd drama.

Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at Nov 16, 2016 around 23:30

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


Alris posted:

I enjoy asking people who liked FFX but hated FFXIII how a game all about running down a single corridor for 40 hours with painfully unlikeable characters and shitawful side content is good while another game dedicated to running down a single corridor for 40 hours with painfully unlikeable characters and barely any side content is bad just to see their flustered justification.

No one in FFX even approaches being as obnoxious as Hope, so there's one thing. While I'm not going to plant my flag and die on FFX's hill the way I will for FFVII, the world and plot of FFX are just a hell of a lot more compelling than FFXIII. The main thing is pacing; FFX is technically a corridor but it's broken up by towns, dungeons, puzzle sections, blitzball (as controversial as that is) and so forth. FFXIII is literally a corridor. The closest thing to breaking up the gameplay cycle of "walk forward, fight trash, walk forward, fight boss, cut scene" is when there are NPCs standing in your way that you don't even talk to so much as walk vaguely next to, or when a path forks and you can choose to go get a piece of loot or not.

I don't think I've ever been quite as angry at a video game as I was when I got to chapter 10 of FFXIII, which begins with the characters literally saying "why are we here" "no real reason" "oh well i guess this is a filler chapter" followed by what basically amounts to the library level from Halo 1 except two hours long.

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


I loved Legend of Legaia back in the day. Breath of Fire 3, 4, and 5 are also great (I never played 1 and 2).

guts and bolts posted:

Front Mission 3


Hell yeah. For some reason FM4 didn't have quite the same magic but it was still a good game too. If we're gonna recommend SRPGs, Fire Emblem also owns.

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R



Elentor posted:

All in all it's a good opening. Square did a version of it for the PS3, which is pretty neat and I recommend for everyone to watch:

It's also the closest thing we'll ever have to a remake because FF7 fans can't ever have nice things.


Guess what, 2011 Elentor, the Promise Has Been Made.

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Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

Trump H8R


Also to the guy who brought this up earlier, since we are talking about FF: TSW, the Square-Enix merger was actually happening before TSW bombed in theaters, and TSW threw a wrench into it and almost prevented it from happening entirely. I think it ended up being renegotiated much more favorably to Enix after that happened. There's a guy who posts here named Sunning who posted a huge, excellent writeup about the S-E merger politics in the past.

Also I played Xenogears for the first time in ~2008 and found the plot and dungeons to be an uninteresting, overwrought slog, though I really enjoyed the mechs and combat system.

Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at Nov 22, 2016 around 00:17

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