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Camel Pimp
May 17, 2008

This poster survived LPing Lunar: Dragon Song. Let's give her a hand.

This is one of the few times they made a fairly drastic change; he's on the throne in the original. He's not optional. I guess they wanted to have his survival in the next two games make more sense? You can still kill him though and you're going to. Gradivus, man.

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LordHippoman
May 30, 2013

I, frankly, want this smug Jagen to be my avatar on all forms of social media immediately.

Camel Pimp posted:

This is one of the few times they made a fairly drastic change; he's on the throne in the original. He's not optional. I guess they wanted to have his survival in the next two games make more sense? You can still kill him though and you're going to. Gradivus, man.

That's true, but everyone who dies in this game gets better, except, like, Marth's Dad and Jiol, so he's probably alright regardless. Worked out for Michalis, at least.

MythosDragon posted:

Why is the sword dude using bow analogys, Jorge step up your game.

Jeorge isn't allowed to have a character until the sequel, sorry.

(also this next chapter is a pain in the rear end so it may take me longer than usual.)

PS: I didn't want to double post for this, but the Mages Voting Gauntlet has started in Heroes! You can stick up for your good Shadow Dragon pals, Merric or Linde. Cord is sadly not included, and poor Linde is about to be violently turned to dust by the might of the Tharja Empire.

LordHippoman fucked around with this message at 20:20 on May 12, 2017

LordHippoman
May 30, 2013

I, frankly, want this smug Jagen to be my avatar on all forms of social media immediately.

Chapter 20: Grust To Grust (Battle)

Time to take down our first major villain.

What do you mean I said that about Jiol? I take it back.



: All right, Marth. As you wish. When the Dolhr-Grust allied forces seized control of Archanea, the entire royal family was killed, save me. I was given into Grustís custody- the custody of the Sable Order, to be more specific. I am told Dolhr wished for my execution- and with it the end of the holy lineage of House Archanea and Grust was willing to comply.

Just in case you felt bad that weíre about to overrun these guys.

: But you are not dead.

: That is right. I was not put to the sword.





: Ö!

: Camus protected me, knowing he risked incurring the wrath of the Shadow Dragon. He was the one who eventually arranged for my escape to Aurelis.

: ÖI had no idea. That certainly explains Dolhrís displeasure with him.

: I hated him, too, at first. But in the time, I found my hatred tempered by the compassion he showed me, my feelingsÖchanged. And now, all I wish is to see him againÖBut not if it means you and he must fight.

: NynaÖ Do youÖ I cannot make any promises. But I will do what I can. I hope you can accept that.

: Marth was incredulous that Nyna would ask him to just randomly walk up and have a conversation with a named enemy soldier, an impossible occurence.

: Thank you, Marth. I could not ask for more.



Immediately removing this Ballista with extreme prejudice.




So Caeda doesnít get totally outnumbered here, Iím sending Barst across the river to give this general a whack with Hammest.




As for the other enemy ballista, this is why I brought Beck along. Remember the Thunderbolt? Itís a one-shot.




...Or, uh, rather, it WOULD be a one-shot if it hit.




Itís okay, I can salvage this. Putting Caesar in Paladin range to bodyblock a little bit.




The other General chose to run directly into a Hammest Barst. It wasnít great for him.




The enemies on this map are worth respecting, since they come in groups and donít have totally laughable stats like the goons from the Fane of Raman.




There are three Paladins here, each of them do eight damage. Even if they all hit Caeda, sheíll live, so Iím just going to park her here with the Wing Spear and let her solo this pack.




This went much worse in the take where I tried to make Barst do it.




Heís better at jobs like this.




Second timeís the charm.




Strength actually matters for Beck, so Iíll take it. Weíve still got Paladins to worry about, though.




Linde is starting to hit ďI canít Aura Double everyoneĒ territory. Thatís a little worrisome, I might toss her the next Speedwing I get my hands on.




Also, hereís Tiki in battle. Iím using the Firestone to conserve Divinestone uses, but it comes at a price. This Paladin would have done 24 damage to her. She starts with 18 HP.

Be careful with Tiki.




Since there was a lot of scattered damage this turn, Iím popping a Fortify. By the way, the Starsphereís bonus doesnít apply to Staves, unfortunately.




Letís allow people who arenít fliers, Barst, or Marth to get up here.




Those Paladins are worth a lot of experience.




Now that the initial charging Paladins are finished, I didnít do much this turn except move Abel into a range where he can rush down the Ballista.




Oh yeah, Cord can Heal now. Thatís handy.




Iím sorry I didnít actually use this on the actual Desert Map, but here it is now.




With the Ballistaís cover down, Marth can freely hop into the village.




: Tell me, have you seen my granddaughter Lena? Is she well?

Nobody tell him about the 3 Magic.


: If she happens to find you, would you see she gets this Hammerne staff? Itís a staff of repairing passed down through our family. Iím certain sheíll make good use of it. Of course, not all items can be repaired; be sure to caution her about that.

This is a good find.




Hammerne has 12 uses and instantly restores any weapon to max durability. It is locked to Lena only, making her again the best cleric in the game as long as growths donít screw her over. Unfortunately, we have to actually deploy her to use it. You canít use it on the menu between maps because gently caress you.




So, uh, this conversation triggers as soon as one of your units gets close to Camus. I sent Catria up to kill a thief, and now Marth is standing at the village gates, screaming over an entire mountain range.

: I must speak with you! Please, show yourself!





: YOUíRE WHAT?

: CAMUS OF GRUST

: General, I have no wish to fight you. You know this battle is pointless; surely you must!

: So long as Grust continues to support Dolhrís ambitions, it does not matter what I know or think.



Hereís Camusí entire character in a nutshell.

: But surely-

: Prince Marth, there is nothing you can do or say. I am party to your fatherís murder. Are you a man or not? Draw your sword.



: Princess NynaÖ

: WHAT?

(okay Iíll stop)



This peaceful hamlet in the middle of the battlefield!

: I know, I knowÖ But please, Camus, listen to meÖ Camus, you gave me back my life. And Marth, he gave me back my kingdom. I do not wish to see that the two of you fight. It isÖit is unbearable. Please, Camus, fight with us. We need your strength. ÖI need it.

: I am sorry, Princess.

: What? But, Camus!

: Were my heart my master, I would do exactly as you say. But what sort of knight abandons his kingdom- his king!- now, when they need him the most? Would you have me toss away the life I have built as if it meant nothing at all?

: No, Camus, IÖ I donít know.

: I have lived as a knight, and I intend to die as one. There are no other roads left for me to walk. Farewell, my princess. I shall never forget our days together at the palace, few though they were. I pray you meet someone who can bring joy back into your life.

So, yes, Camus is actually totally unrecruitable. Weíre doing this for keeps.




Also, ouch. The Pachyderm is the most powerful all-around Ballista.





He dropped that Devil Sword. Iím sealing it away.



So, at this point Iím turtling up, because I donít really care about my turn count, and since this is a late-game map, weíre getting reinforcements.




Like this guy! Did you notice that fort? I didnít! Whoops! Thankfully Julian can take the hit.




The other Reinforcement Knight doesnít have nearly as good of a game plan.





Thereís the stat I want!




Donít mind me, Iím just on my way to cause ~shenanigans~.




Camus will be a hard fight with Ballista support. Iíll poke down the Pachyderm with Beckís Thunderbolt.




Turn 9 brings with it a Paladin and three cavaliers. Theyíll rush immediately.




Both of these Curates will spam Fortify, but itís not quite enough.




The Pachyderm still goes down. Maybe I should have been using Beck.




My hubris!




This is a good prize. And yes, you totally can sit outside Camusí range and Ballista plink him to death, probably breaking both Fortify staves in the process.






Honestly, I was overpreparing for the reinforcements. They arenít too tough.



The right Armory up here has a few interesting items, namely the Ridersbane and Yet Another Rapier. The other shops have nothing out of the ordinary, and youíll want to save money for Something Good next chapter.




Alright, last set of guys. Two Cavs here, and a horseman to the north and south. You can see their dots on the map.




Or right here.




Barst is still good, this should come as no surprise.





Now that the reinforcements are dealt with, letís take on the boss himself.




The way I have this set up is using Caeda with a Javelin to lure Camus out. Cord and Catria are standing by. Every character here has a C Name and that was not intentional.





Camus is pretty drat .




Itís a Caeda double, but Gradivus is really dangerous and Camus needs to go down ASAP.



This is why I packed the Ridersbane. If this missed, Iíd have Healed Caeda with Cord and gone for the Wing Spear.




It did not miss but I did so anyway. Just without the healing.




: And he was so dead he never, ever, ever showed up again, ever.




And thatís all the Regalia.




The Gradivus is probably the best Legendary Weapon in the entire game, just for that sweet 1-2 range. This is probably getting glued to Caeda.




This is just anticlimactic after all that.




Cordís speed is really starting to pull up.




Now then, the only (damaging) enemy left is the..other boss, Lorenz.




Caeda or Marth can talk with him. Also note that Caeda has already capped speed, permanently. At...23.

drat you, Shadow Dragon.




: My father has told me quite a bit about you.




: Your father was a good friend to me, many years ago.

: General, I heard you opposed Grust forming an alliance with Dolhr. Why didnít you try to stop it?

: You think I did not try, Princess? Our king is meek; in the end, Dolhr proved better at cowing him than I did.

They sure do like talking about Cowing that guy.

: Ah, but what makes a country?

: Pardon?


: Is it one man- your king? Or is it the countless innocent people who make their home here?

: Well, thatís-Hmm...


: My father has a saying:




Was that supposed to rhyme, Caeda? I think you hosed it up.

: If you disobey your king to ensure his subjectsí safety, how is that a betrayal? You are protecting his reign.

: Protecting his reign? ÖAha ha ha, ha ha! Ahh, that mad logic! I feel as though Iíve shed twenty years and Iím talking to your father again. You win, Princess. I yield! I will join you, in the interests of king and country. Har!



And so, with all the power of a Philosophy 101 course, weíve recruited Lorenz. Lorenz is awesome. Look at that eyepatch. I mean, stat-wise heís awful, heís somehow got 3 Skill and 2 Luck, so really only his Defense is worth it, and his growths are subpar (Aside from a really cool 35 in Strength.) But, that eyepatch!




Since Caedaís already proven herself MVP of this map about three times, I let her kill off the last Curate for a level up. Eh.









: No, Marth, IÖI should not have made such a selfish request. I am sorry, so terribly sorryÖ

: ...

: The worst part, MarthÖthe worst part is, I knew it would come to this. Ever since I gave you the emblem, I just knewÖHave you heard the story of Artemisís Curse?

: NoÖ

This is the response of a man who has just been informed the magic thing heís been hauling around for like 15 chapters might be cursed.

: The last time the Fire Emblem changed hands to save House Archanea, it was not without cost. There was a princess named Artemis who loved your ancestor, Anri, with all her heart. He loved her as well- but when Medeus appeared, the two were parted forever. She cursed the Fire Emblem- called it the end of war, but also the end of love. Now the emblem has changed hands again, and I am the one who is cursedÖ

Thereís more to that story, but like so many things in Shadow Dragon, not until the sequel.

: Nyna...

: Look at me, so quick to fall apartÖ You lost loved ones in Altea and took it so bravely; but I cannot be so braveÖ PleaseÖleave me for a moment. This is too much to bear. I need toÖto confront my feelingsÖ

: ÖSay no more, NynaÖ Princess. I will step out. Send for me if you need anything.



This wasnít a cropping error, and for once Iím not joking about that. Nyna just plunges herself into the inky black void for her last line here.

: And so, Camus the Sableís long history was ended, thanks to the actions of our heroes, Catria and Caeda. Marth was there too.

: So next you marched for Macedon?

: Yes. As we set course for Macedon, we...oh! I nearly forgot! Lava Town!

: Lava Town?

: Lava Town.

Next time, Lava Town.

Bonus Content



Black Knight, Camus

LordHippoman fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Jun 6, 2017

Alxprit
Feb 7, 2015

A lady after my own Soul-Heart.

Camus just dies? Are you Sirius?

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Alxprit posted:

Camus just dies? Are you Sirius?

What did you Zeke, a happy ending?

LordHippoman
May 30, 2013

I, frankly, want this smug Jagen to be my avatar on all forms of social media immediately.

Alxprit posted:

Camus just dies? Are you Sirius?


Blaze Dragon posted:

What did you Zeke, a happy ending?

vilkacis
Feb 16, 2011



: But you are not dead.

: Or am I?



:



LordHippoman posted:

: And he was so dead he never, ever, ever showed up again, ever.

Good! I'm glad he's gone. I mean does he even listen to the things he says?


Couldn't get any cheesier if he tried

Well at least he drops a nice juicy sequel when he dies. And his spear, I guess.

LordHippoman
May 30, 2013

I, frankly, want this smug Jagen to be my avatar on all forms of social media immediately.

vilkacis posted:

Good! I'm glad he's gone. I mean does he even listen to the things he says?

I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate the effort you went to to make this joke, including getting the game's font and putting it in a quote.

Especially because I just rotated his head and called it a day.

vilkacis
Feb 16, 2011



It's good to be appreciated, but don't sell yourself short - the art of head rotation is an old and proud one.

LordHippoman
May 30, 2013

I, frankly, want this smug Jagen to be my avatar on all forms of social media immediately.

Chapter 20x: The Reason I Went For The Generic Units (Prep)

(Hey, Shadows Of Valentia came out today! Maybe you should check it out, I havenít played it yet.)

: Again, it falls upon me to correct the mistakes made in this faulty retelling.

: Are you sure you donít want help with this?

: Bah. Donít underestimate me, kid.





: Anyway, uh, this person joined us. I donít remember their face. Weíre on the bridge, right?

: Ö





: While my Jagen Tales tome had run its course, the sequel had just entered print. Itís a hit.




The olí Warp/Horace bomb is still an extremely good tactic, even with an Armorslayer in the mix. This probably wouldnít work with mages in the group, however.




Things donít work out as well for poor Dexa. He/she did eat two shots before this, though!




This was honestly the greatest obstacle on this map. Normal mode nerfs the Paladins hard, so itís sort of a breather.




Oh, I figured Iíd let you know, I didnít do an exact count but this is at least Wrysí fourth empty level. I think itís been around six.




The reinforcements are also pretty weakened thanks to the whole ďnot moving as soon as they spawnĒ thing. This also makes it much easier to Screenshot LP. Live and learn.




: Well hey there, new gal! Ya wanna know a secret?

: Hmm?

: From one pinkhead to another, he just LOVES bow users. Especially if you try aní use Ďem in melee range! Give it a shot!




: Ainít enough room for the two of usÖ




So, I couldnít decide if I wanted a picture of Bantuís battle model or his death quote, so I think I panicked and got this instead. So hereís him looking very introspectively in specter form over an empty text box.









: NO, NO, I CALL BULLSHIT

: Pssh. Iím kidding. He went to take a nap.

(look, he got like 6 empty levels and I didnít wanna reset )







Due to the low unit cap on this map, we only got one new character despite the pretty huge losses I took. Say hello to Hendexa!




Say goodbye to Hendexa!




: Purged in holy fire!




: Speedy fire!




: ...Why did you tell me about that part?




: To combat such a powerful foe as General Camus, we had to recruit Alteaís finest.




: Not this guy, I donít know who the gently caress this guy is.




: Wymp, who shot at a house once, and almost hit!




: Owend, runner up of the barracks beer-pong tournament!




: And, finally, Laim, master of the healing arts, who cured a whole town of minor scratches.

So, uh, as youíve probably noticed, once the game runs out of Latin numbers, in the American version, at least, the names get...interesting.




: Seriously I donít know why we brought this guy.




: Behold his mighty Archery!




Unfortunately, without Lena, the Hammerne is Literally Useless to me on this run. I guess I can sell it?




I also spent all my Master Keys last time, so, uh, weíre just gonna forget this route exists, okay?




To my surprise, though, you can, evidently, get through this area. Itís not all mountains. Iím learning a lot on this meat-grinder-esque playthrough.





: Iím pretty sure he was too old to be of any use to us anyway.

: Sir Jagen-

: Donít you sass me, Iím on my deathbed here.




: However...against the strength of the great GeneralÖ




: Not even our greatest warriors could stand!




: Thus, we hatched a desperate planÖ





: See ya.

: Wha-







You do get some different dialogue here if Camus lives. Most notably, Nyna doesnít run off to cry in the black void.




(This chapter is called ďMen and MonstersĒ in the EU version, which is a way better name.)

: Anyway, Lava Town.







: to crush the last of the opposition. The surviving Grustian soldiers, in a mad attempt to hang on to their lives, took all the residents of a nearby village hostage to keep Marth from striking. However, they could not have picked a worse village to harassÖ




The sole new addition to the team this time is Auffle the Bishop.




This map has one feature that I donít think appears anywhere else, lava. Itís the same as Water but Berserkers canít cross it.




There are a lot of chests scattered around this map, which is separated into six separate islands. We start in the bottom right and have to move up to the top left.




The enemies, as is typical for a Gaiden chapter, arenít anything too special.




Hereís the loneliest island of all.




We do have a Swarm Bishop to contend with, but itís not much to worry about in the grand scheme of things. The grand scheme being ďthis map is still pretty easyĒ.




The boss here has no ranged weapon or throne, so heís...just a General who doesnít move. Not much to worry about.




Also I made Auffle a Swordmaster. Thatís enough for today.

Bonus Content

Etzelís support is really depressing so hereís a Catria art from the new game!



ITíS YOUR PAL, CATRIA

Rabbi Raccoon
Mar 31, 2009

I stabbed you dude!

Wrys is getting so many empty levels because why mess with perfection?

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Rabbi Raccoon posted:

Wrys is getting so many empty levels because why mess with perfection?

He won't be getting any more empty levels

vilkacis
Feb 16, 2011



LordHippoman posted:



Say goodbye to Hendexa!

A Hendexa broke!

...

I have to wait anywhere from a week to a month to play loving FEchoes, not even Jagen Tales can soothe my rage and/or pain

Toyotasomi no Miko
Oct 23, 2016


I feel like Auffle's name says a lot about him. And the generics' names after the numbers, actually.

MythosDragon
Jan 3, 2016
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND

WIMP
LAME
AWFUL

OH MY GOD, THID IS REAL, I LOVE THIS!

Im getting my LE in a few hours.

Glaive17
Oct 11, 2012

What is there left to discover about donuts...?


Pillbug

I forgot Echoes was coming out today, I know what I am doing this weekend.

EclecticTastes
Sep 17, 2012

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."


MythosDragon posted:

WIMP
LAME
AWFUL

OH MY GOD, THID IS REAL, I LOVE THIS!

Im getting my LE in a few hours.

You forgot

Yeah I've been waiting for LHM to hit this rich, rich vein of excellent names for these guys. It's gonna keep going for the next several replacements, try to spot them all!

LordHippoman
May 30, 2013

I, frankly, want this smug Jagen to be my avatar on all forms of social media immediately.

EclecticTastes posted:

You forgot

Yeah I've been waiting for LHM to hit this rich, rich vein of excellent names for these guys. It's gonna keep going for the next several replacements, try to spot them all!

I was a little worried I wouldn't hit them by the end, which is why I sacrificed Arran in that last update, and, uh-

Rabbi Raccoon posted:

Wrys is getting so many empty levels because why mess with perfection?


Torrannor posted:

He won't be getting any more empty levels


That.

EDIT: I'm not bumping my own thread for this but holy poo poo there's a pirate in Echoes who talks about Shanty Pete again.

LordHippoman fucked around with this message at 07:00 on May 21, 2017

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





LordHippoman posted:

I was a little worried I wouldn't hit them by the end, which is why I sacrificed Arran in that last update, and, uh-




That.

EDIT: I'm not bumping my own thread for this but holy poo poo there's a pirate in Echoes who talks about Shanty Pete again.

8-4 knows that it's not really Fire Emblem without Shanty Pete.

That's what Fates got wrong, really.

LordHippoman
May 30, 2013

I, frankly, want this smug Jagen to be my avatar on all forms of social media immediately.

Chapter 20x: The Reason I Went For The Generic Units (Battle)

Short update here, because even for a Gaiden chapter this oneís a pushover.



: With that ogre on the loose? Hardly, sir. All of our soldiers together still canít contain him. The other villagers have fled into the caverns, out of reach.

Not a...literal Ogre. No monsters in this game. This ainít Sacred Stones. Or Gaiden. Or Echoes, I think I have to add that now.

: What? Grr, enough of this! The League will be here soon. Take your positions! Weíll deal with them first and cut that giant down to size later.




This is, as far as I know, the only time this ďCaveĒ background is used in the game. Thereís so much effort in new assets for this optional, extremely hard to accidentally reach map that...never get used again.




: Why would you try to take on an entire army just for our sake?

: Because you treat me like a human being. Do I need another reason?

: Ymir...thank you.

: Iíll be standing guard outside the cavern. Nobody will hurt you, I swear it.




And that he does. In another case of ďThis Game Desperately Needed Neutral UnitsĒ, Ymir is...an enemy for some reason. He wonít move, though.




Marth has to go talk to him, so heís of course with his ace bodyguard, Auffle.




Pretty much everyone else takes to the western exit.




Many of the Mounted units on this map will charge you. This still shouldnít present much of a challenge, especially if you make sure not to let fliers in the Horsemenís range.




This helps too.

Honestly, if you made it through Chapter 20, you arenít going to be having trouble here.




Thereís also a convenient chokepoint here.




Not that thereís much to...choke.




: Did...did he forget to pick up his sword?




: No, see, heís got it!




: well.




: Letís move on.

You know, an interesting thing about this map (and most of the Gaidens) is that itís full of riders and armored units, which Marth is great against thanks to the Rapier. And, even if youíve lost literally every other character, you MUST have Marth, and this is a great spot to get him EXP.




These Generals actually have some substantial Attack, thanks to the Silver Lances, but they still arenít too bad.




Iím sorry, I canít say too much about this map, I just kinda killed the enemies.




Hereís a Jagen one-shot.




Even their Manaketes are lovely!




This guy was late when they handed out the Lances.




Once you get close enough, the remaining stationary Paladins will begin a charge.




Thankfully for us, Marthís reached his goal.




: You just keep your distance. Iím not letting anyone near the villagers in here, and that includes you!

: You wrong me, sir. Iím here to rout the last of Grustís army. To save you.


: Yeah? Well, they said the same thing when they led us down here. And look where that got us. Iím not falliní for the same lies twice!

: I speak the truth. But, if my word is not good enough, so be it. Stand aside and watch us fight. Let the battle prove I mean what I say. Agreed? Either way, you are in danger here. Take the villagers and hide until this is over.


: ÖSo Iím supposed to just sit here, when I could be fightiní?


: Just give me a chance to prove Iím here to protect you.


: ÖFine. Iíll stay out of it. For now. But if I find youíre lyiní to me, Iíll split you right down the middle!




Ymir actually exits the map at this point. Donít worry, youíll still recruit him, so long as you finish it.




Unlike Hard Mode Run Caeda, I donít think Normal Mode Caeda was lucky enough with levels to take on all those Paladins, so she backs up.




The rest of this will be a looting spree.




I missed the shot, but it was a Killer Axe!




You might be sensing a theme.




Freyís got enough movement to dispatch of the Swarm Bishop before he can work his foul, bug based magic.








I hope you like getting Crits. But who doesnít?




Whoa, whoa, you donít fit the gimmick at all, buddy.




No wonder these two were on their own island.




The boss has no range, but Barst has a Hammer.




This was the most expedient solution.









: Those soldiers told us theyíd protect us when they led us down hereÖbut they were just using us as leverage, hostages to keep you at bay! If you hadnít shown up, they might have just killed us outright in the endÖ

And thatís all he has to say, scene change!




Okay, this is a good blink portrait, maybe thereís something salvageable in this update. Vote 5, folks.

: Well, at least weíve cleared up the misunderstanding.

: Since you came to the villagersí rescue, how íbout I help you out as a way of sayiní thanks?

: You mean...join our army?

: Iím strongest in the land! Well, second strongest, at least. I can hold my own in battle. But if you donít want a monster in your ranks, I understandÖ

I think people are supposed to be afraid of Ymir because heís...big? And has war paint? But nobody really has that reaction to him in this game. It takes until New Mystery for someone to just assume heís come to kill them. (thanks, steve)

: Monster? Youíre a giant among men, to be sure, but a hero as well! Any warrior who can fend of an entire army is welcome among us!

: Then count me in! Letís see how many more armies break themselves against me, eh!



Oof. Nobodyís breaking themselves against that 9 defense, big guy. Ymir is...not good, unfortunately, because I love his design. Heís a mound of HP and Strength, at least, but thatís about all heíll ever be.

Bonus Content



Ymirís Official Art

He doesnít have the war paint in this one.

MythosDragon
Jan 3, 2016
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND

I love the bad jokes more than anything <3. More Shanty Pete please.

Echoes sadly got jipped on the support quantity, really makes the 'optional' characters feel a bit lifeless. But atleast they exist unlike 11 here, and there are alternatives that alleviate alot of the loss, that I absolutely demand continue into 16. Unlike 30 years ago, I think some of the unique changes are a natural progression of the series now that I personally think should be tweaked a bit and kept. Dungeons fit a bit better than just infinite grinding and playing zelda in my FE is fun. Getting to visit towns and see what people think of the wars more often adds alot to the tone. My biggest gripe is with the immense class divide between the auto and manual recruits, especially with Alm's villagers, 2 autojoin and get to comment in basically every plot scene, but the other 2(that I liked more) get absolutely no focus.
My favorite FE is 13 as a Character-Focused Story gamer, but I'm gonna say it's a very good base for combining the new and old styles into a cohesive whole that everyone can hopefully be happy with. Also please stop giving me +1s.

EclecticTastes
Sep 17, 2012

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."


MythosDragon posted:

Dungeons fit a bit better than just infinite grinding and playing zelda in my FE is fun. Getting to visit towns and see what people think of the wars more often adds alot to the tone.

This part is kinda how Shining Force distinguished itself, a lot of town exploration and other escapades outside of the SRPG battles. It was pretty good, but also ran with a considerably smaller cast than most FE games. The real problem with plot involvement in FE is permadeath, it's not reasonable to expect them to make contingent lines/scenes for everyone. However, at this point, they've been walking permadeath back so much with features like Casual Mode that they may as well retire the concept entirely in order to let the whole cast participate in the story. A bunch of purists will probably lose their poo poo even though 99% of them reset immediately when anyone dies, anyway, but the thing is, FE has already made other significant changes to the series. They completely overhauled how weapons work for Fates, and the tone has gradually shifted to be less like a fantasy/war novel and more like a lighthearted action anime with each installment since Genealogy of the Holy War (no, really, compare any scene from Genealogy with a scene from Fates, the tonal difference is jarring), not to mention that the world map and grinding are apparently here to stay (though they'd experimented with that in the past, obviously). At this point, if it lets them finally include the extensive supporting cast in the plot, I see no reason not to add permadeath to the list of changes.

Miacis
Oct 9, 2012

Get off my lawn!!

EclecticTastes posted:

It was pretty good, but also ran with a considerably smaller cast than most FE games. The real problem with plot involvement in FE is permadeath, it's not reasonable to expect them to make contingent lines/scenes for everyone.
That's an argument I've seen more than once and I'm still not sure what rooted that idea. If a character is dead, any conversations they participate in are gone, and that's about it. If their interlocutors relied on that character's presence to continue their character development, welp, they're dead now, so their development will either halt or go a different direction.
The Tellius games had this going mostly through base conversations, and occasionally having side-characters piping in during plot sequences. Even Tearring Saga did it (almost to a fault) with its side cast, despite having way more plot-relevant units available for chatting than Fates or Awakening. And it had what, a quarter of the budget? If Radiant Dawn could juggle the insanity of if_alive/if_in_team conditionals that is Act 4, it doesn't seem that unreasonnable to me for the next FE game to achieve it, permadeath or no.

Heck, if the FE writers are so terrified of if Unit_alive!=1 then display text switches, they can just do with the side cast what the series has always done with plot-armor units and make characters suffer a "crippling injury" so they won't directly fight but still participate in conversations.
Permadeath isn't really the issue here, it's the writers being generally bad at involving their side cast into the plot past their recruitment chapter..

Miacis fucked around with this message at 16:03 on May 24, 2017

LordHippoman
May 30, 2013

I, frankly, want this smug Jagen to be my avatar on all forms of social media immediately.

I'm personally optimistic about Fire Emblem trying new things if the "Echoes" series of possible remakes really goes anywhere. Being able to continue experimenting in new games while still working with the older ones fans already love is something that could pay big dividends for IS.

If stuff goes well in the remakes, port it to the main series, like with Reclassing. It would help split up the ideas, so you don't get a huge overload of "Well, we thought THIS was cool, and also this, and this, and that, and this" (fates).

I think there's merit in the idea that the smaller casts are more effective, Chrom/Robin, for example, have a great dynamic. Fates tries to give you Corrin, Azura, and four plot-relevant Royal Siblings on your team in both paths, and then you get stuff like Hinoka vaguely existing in the background and nodding her head for all of Birthright. Still, like Miacis said, Radiant Dawn has a good use of conditional character uses, and I think that solves a lot of the "Huge Team Where Nobody Says Anything" problems. Like, for the chapter we just did, since we're in Grust, it would be nice if maybe Roger could talk about the king instead of just the narration, or for upcoming Macedon, if the Whitewings had anything to say. Just one or two lines still goes a pretty long way.

EclecticTastes
Sep 17, 2012

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."


Miacis posted:

That's an argument I've seen more than once and I'm still not sure what rooted that idea. If a character is dead, any conversations they participate in are gone, and that's about it. If their interlocutors relied on that character's presence to continue their character development, welp, they're dead now, so their development will either halt or go a different direction.
The Tellius games had this going mostly through base conversations, and occasionally having side-characters piping in during plot sequences. Even Tearring Saga did it (almost to a fault) with its side cast, despite having way more plot-relevant units available for chatting than Fates or Awakening. And it had what, a quarter of the budget? If Radiant Dawn could juggle the insanity of if_alive/if_in_team conditionals that is Act 4, it doesn't seem that unreasonnable to me for the next FE game to achieve it, permadeath or no.

Heck, if the FE writers are so terrified of if Unit_alive!=1 then display text switches, they can just do with the side cast what the series has always done with plot-armor units and make characters suffer a "crippling injury" so they won't directly fight but still participate in conversations.
Permadeath isn't really the issue here, it's the writers being generally bad at involving their side cast into the plot past their recruitment chapter..

If you want a bunch of disconnected conversations tangentially related to the story, there's Support conversations. Base conversations, while more pointed, are basically the same thing in terms of programming. I liked them, sure, but I think the initial request was more along the lines of participation in actual story scenes (and I don't really count a single-line "hey I'm alive too" line as actual participation). There is an example of complex survival conditionals in FE's story, for Genealogy of the Holy War. The one with only twenty-four people total at any one time. Ultimately, it's just not feasible to include everybody in the story with that many characters without deliberately making scenes purely for them to chime in. Look at Suikoden, the only time much of the cast did anything story-related after being recruited was during special scenes made just for them prior to certain war battles, and even then, a huge percentage of the cast was left out of even those.

As for replacing permadeath with just having the whole cast get "too injured" at zero HP, you may as well drop the mechanic entirely then, because then there's no impact from a character dying, it's literally nothing more than a detriment to the gameplay at that point.

MythosDragon
Jan 3, 2016
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND

I think permadeath is good, but I'd also say it only works with no grinding and a limited support focus. If I have to grind or play stupid to get supports its a problem, if I'm grinding and forget to save for hours and someone dies to an unlucky crit or super monster, then I'm gonna hate the game.

I consider supports much more integral to the series than permadeath so yeah, I say ditch it going forward, or pull a tactics ogre and give characters 3 lives before they permadie.

EclecticTastes
Sep 17, 2012

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."


MythosDragon posted:

I think permadeath is good, but I'd also say it only works with no grinding and a limited support focus. If I have to grind or play stupid to get supports its a problem, if I'm grinding and forget to save for hours and someone dies to an unlucky crit or super monster, then I'm gonna hate the game.

I consider supports much more integral to the series than permadeath so yeah, I say ditch it going forward, or pull a tactics ogre and give characters 3 lives before they permadie.

Well, this is kind of my point, is that if IS is planning to stick with the model they've used for Awakening and Fates (and given that prior to that Awakening selling a bajillion copies, Fire Emblem was slated to get the axe, it's safe to assume that outside of remakes, they absolutely are), they should drop permadeath, as well. Now, this will just change it into something more akin to FFT or Ogre Battle, given, but, there's no point in going halfway, given the other changes. The vast majority of Fire Emblem was about managing your units and resources over a linear experience, picking and choosing which characters get used, and which stay on the bench forever. With grinding and class changing, everyone can get everything, which largely eliminates the strategic considerations regarding who you're going to use.

Additionally, while the kids work great in Genealogy of the Holy War, and setting up your supports just right for your preferred Anime Eugenics plan can provide some strategic challenges (like which unfortunate kid gets stuck with Setsuna as their mother, those are some rough growth rates to inherit), if they do go back to being linear, they gotta drop the system again. It worked in Genealogy because there weren't any actual choices about who to deploy, everyone participated in every map, but Conquest was actually kind of a bad time because I had to manage a mostly-linear campaign while also making sure to square away all the supports (I didn't get the DLC maps until after I'd grabbed the other two campaigns). It wound up feeling very restrictive.

Miacis
Oct 9, 2012

Get off my lawn!!

EclecticTastes posted:

If you want a bunch of disconnected conversations tangentially related to the story, there's Support conversations. Base conversations, while more pointed, are basically the same thing in terms of programming. I liked them, sure, but I think the initial request was more along the lines of participation in actual story scenes (and I don't really count a single-line "hey I'm alive too" line as actual participation). There is an example of complex survival conditionals in FE's story, for Genealogy of the Holy War. The one with only twenty-four people total at any one time. Ultimately, it's just not feasible to include everybody in the story with that many characters without deliberately making scenes purely for them to chime in. Look at Suikoden, the only time much of the cast did anything story-related after being recruited was during special scenes made just for them prior to certain war battles, and even then, a huge percentage of the cast was left out of even those.
Thing is, there are only so many ways for a video game to integrate optional content (be they recruited characters, completed sidequests or items) into the mandatory storyline. Either you try to fit it in on a symbolic level, with the optional content expanding on the main story's themes and ideas; or you integrate scenes that check if the optional stuff has been obtained, and then display the interaction if it was, or displays something else if not.
The former is pretty much what you'd expect supports and base conversations to be, with base convos having the advantage that they're fixed in time and so easier to integrate to the overarching narrative. The latter I suppose you could call "hey I'm alive too" content, although I was thinking of more complex interactions, like, to take TRS as an example once again, Kate's entire sub-story, or simply Holmes discovering about his lineage from an optional conversation with Sasha. It's not Suikoden levels of bloated casts, but it still has 60 playable characters, is basically a FE game in structure, and manages to have story content for something like 2/3rds of its cast.

I'm not sure what you mean with Genealogy, though? It's got the complex conditional epilogue, but that's because it tried to replicate actual inheritance of duchies and whatnot. If anything, the blood/marriage systems made it more of a mess than permadeath did.

EclecticTastes posted:

As for replacing permadeath with just having the whole cast get "too injured" at zero HP, you may as well drop the mechanic entirely then, because then there's no impact from a character dying, it's literally nothing more than a detriment to the gameplay at that point.
But the way side characters are implemented right now doesn't really make their deaths impactful either, because even if they lived, they most likely wouldn't have any more lines until their epilogue anyways, and their death quotes aren't exactly moving either (because the game does not set the stage for it to be a tragic event). If a unit (like say, Soren in RD) gets too injured to be on the battlefield, that also means no growing supports and a lot of missed character development, so either way it's just the same as current permadeath except you can actually involve the characters in the story without having to deal with the question of "but what if they're dead?"

I mean, it's not my preferred solution (which would be "use proper conditionals to weave the side characters into the story and find creative ways around their deaths"), but it does show they can effortlessly solve this optional character issue without removing a rather core mechanic of the series.
(And if the assumption is that it's not workable to have side characters participating unless the devs are sure they're in the player's team... doesn't that mean also removing recruitment conditions and making all characters mandatory?)

Miacis fucked around with this message at 04:46 on May 25, 2017

EclecticTastes
Sep 17, 2012

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."


Miacis posted:

I'm not sure what you mean with Genealogy, though? It's got the complex conditional epilogue, but that's because it tried to replicate actual inheritance of duchies and whatnot. If anything, the blood/marriage systems made it more of a mess than permadeath did.

FE4 had a lot of lines where people would chime in if they weren't dead. One widely-circulated fan translation (the one I first played, in fact) didn't even bother translating one of Oifaye's, instead just putting a placeholder that literally said, "If I'm still alive, I say something here." There were also a ton of optional conversations available during each map based on who was alive to talk to who, but that's more like support/base conversations.

Miacis posted:

(And if the assumption is that it's not workable to have side characters participating unless the devs are sure they're in the player's team... doesn't that mean also removing recruitment conditions and making all characters mandatory?)

This is basically how Fates worked for just about the entire cast aside from some of the children (who have no actual relevance to the story, anyway, unlike in Awakening where there was that "bad future" subplot). The most complex recruit condition was "talk to glaringly obvious new recruit under circumstances that make it so you'd have to deliberately ignore them to not get them". Not that Awakening was much better at that, the recruits were all pretty simple there, too.

However, the reason for that is yet another reason permadeath has no place in a Fire Emblem with grinding. In the old FEs, if you want to play the game after finishing the final chapter, you just start over and play through it again. But, with grinding and a world map and DLC and online play and so on, suddenly, you have a postgame. So, where in older games, if you were one of those guys who let people stay dead, you'd just see them again next time you started a new game, if they die in Awakening or Fates, they're dead forever, unless you're willing to give up all the results of your hours of grinding and farming and whatever else. That's also why recruiting was made easier, since missing someone means missing them forever without a reset. It's just a poor fit, permadeath doesn't belong in a game where you're expected and/or encouraged to just keep playing the same save file forever.

LordHippoman
May 30, 2013

I, frankly, want this smug Jagen to be my avatar on all forms of social media immediately.

Chapter 21: Nothing Title-Worthy Happens (Prep)

Weíre so close to the end, folks. The (non-Gaiden, non-Bonus) maps left can be counted on one hand! Soon Iíll have to find a hobby again, or learn rune factory 2



This chapter kinda...exists? It was another of those cut from Fire Emblem 3ís remake.




: Of all of Prince Marthís traits, the least mentioned is his marathon swimming ability.






: However, Macedonís Dragoons were ready to waylay them at the border; countless reinforcements hovered within the fortresses, waiting to strikeÖWould Marth be able to lead the League safely through the gauntlet?

Itís nice of the narration to straight up tell you about the reinforcements in this map.




We have a full deployment roster for this map. Lorenz is actually the last character weíre getting until the final map, without Gaidens.

You get a little extra dialogue here if you have Minerva. I donít know if she has to be deployed, or just alive and recruited, but better safe than sorry, Iíve got a ton of slots anyway.




The starting positions on this map are, uhÖ




Weird?




Really weird. Keep that forest terrain in mind.




Michalisí most adept soldiers are here, which means nearly all of these enemies are promoted Aside from these Generals and Sniper, the enemy mainly just focuses on highly mobile units.




Oh, and, uh...these guys? Theyíre here. These Paladins will harry your team quite a bit, so keep the squishy units away from the front.




Being Macedon, the highlight of the map is a pretty heavy concentration of Dracoknights. This guyís got a Ridersbane, which makes him the deadliest of the bunch.




The boss is nothing special. I kinda canít believe they only gave him a Javelin. Some of his goons hit harder.




These, of course, are Fortify Priests.

I know there wasnít much in this update, which means itís time for a feature Iím excited for.

The Old School Fire Emblem Art Gallery, Installment I

Being a very old series, Fire Emblem has a lot of concept art. Some of it is...odd.

Today weíll feature our hero, Prince Marth. Iíd like to shout out the Fire Emblem Wiki again for collecting all these images.



On the top left here we have Original Marth, from the first gameís promo material, affectionately referred to as ďno pants marthĒ by the thread. Itís great (check out his weird calf straps), but not my favorite. You can see that, by the time the original Fire Emblem Card Game was released, they had settled into his more modern design. (the calf straps are still there)



My personal favorite Marth, from the Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light instruction manual, is this Marth, who Iíve named Vanna Marth after his desire to show me how many vowels are in the word Iím guessing. I think itís the hair that does it for me, like he just walked through a wind tunnel.



Last but certainly not least, we have Marth from the anime adaptation of the first game, here shown very excited to go fight the Soothsires. Thatís Jagen behind him, by the way. This actually got an English version (for the two episodes that exist, also they call him "Prince Mars"), but somehow it took us until the 7th game to get the actual video games. Why?



The box art may have answered that question.

Anyway, see you next time.











biosterous
Feb 23, 2013






no-pants Marth should be the first and only 6-star hero in Fire Emblem Heroes

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Vanna Marth will never stop being one of my favourite pieces of art in the entire franchise. I wish he was an alternate outfit for Marth in Super Smash Bros., it'd even get me to use Marth.

AweStriker
Oct 6, 2014



I like how the anime cover actually says "based on the hot video game" at the bottom. Despite no American at the time knowing that there was a video game.

Zero Skill is what I'm saying is happening there.

AradoBalanga
Jan 3, 2013



biosterous posted:

no-pants Marth should be the first and only 6-star hero in Fire Emblem Heroes
The only question now is which artist should get the honor of drawing Pants-Free Marth for Heroes.

EclecticTastes
Sep 17, 2012

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."


AradoBalanga posted:

The only question now is which artist should get the honor of drawing Pants-Free Marth for Heroes.

Junji Ito.

hopeandjoy
Nov 28, 2014





Blaze Dragon posted:

Vanna Marth will never stop being one of my favourite pieces of art in the entire franchise. I wish he was an alternate outfit for Marth in Super Smash Bros., it'd even get me to use Marth.

It's the smile, for me.

Though yes, I would spend actual, real-life money to have no-pants Marth on my Heroes team.

AradoBalanga
Jan 3, 2013



Not enough spirals on Pants-Free Marth for him.

Better idea: Have ONE do the initial version, then have Yusuke Murata come in and do a second variant for a later event banner. Hire me, Nintendo. I can milk those whales dry for you.

Camel Pimp
May 17, 2008

This poster survived LPing Lunar: Dragon Song. Let's give her a hand.

I suppose this is as good a time as any to post this dumb photoshop I made a while back



Not quite the same as having pantless Marth in Heroes, but close as we'll get.

vilkacis
Feb 16, 2011



Nopantsmarth is the best Marth.

AradoBalanga posted:

The only question now is which artist should get the honor of drawing Pants-Free Marth for Heroes.

Hirohiko Araki

e:

Camel Pimp posted:

I suppose this is as good a time as any to post this dumb photoshop I made a while back



Not quite the same as having pantless Marth in Heroes, but close as we'll get.

This is also good.

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Rabbi Raccoon
Mar 31, 2009

I stabbed you dude!

That art makes me think of the Lunar games

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