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Fiction posted:The vast majority of people are in the working class. i'm aware of this. there's a difference between defining people by their relation to the means of production and by income. venom snake was using the latter so i was responding in that vein
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Nov 28, 2016 21:14
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Rule of law is true. Property rights are worthless if they're being only being enforced for a select few. In the last decade we've seen the super rich make away with billions in illegitimate profits while working American families have their homes knowingly wrongly foreclosed on. Capitalism only concerns itself with property when it's the property of the ones pulling the strings.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:15
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Venom Snake posted:One of the biggest things thats overlooked in the Capitalism Versus Communism slap fight is most socialist and communist states post-ww2 were founded in war torn hell holes decimated by Civil War or WW2. Meanwhile the bastion of Capitalism and Our Freedoms remained untouched and dumped billions into rebuilding western Europe. So in the end the result we saw was less to do with methods of governance and more "I have more resources I win" yep. people conveniently forget this and other historical factors when they want to poo poo on actually existing socialism so i'm glad you're aware of it
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Nov 28, 2016 21:16
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I mean the Fourth Amendment has been completely stomped into the ground by right-wing policies ever since LBJ but companies which were instrumental in the economic collapse were not only allowed to keep their capital but were given more capital to keep doing what they're doing.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:17
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Fiction posted:Rule of law is true. Property rights are worthless if they're being only being enforced for a select few. In the last decade we've seen the super rich make away with billions in illegitimate profits while working American families have their homes knowingly wrongly foreclosed on. have you considered that there are good and less good ways of implementing capitalism, same for socialism. hell I'd even argue that capitalism and socialism are not even really in opposition because socialism can only exist in a stable state as part of a capitalist system whereas communism is actually outright impossible sure it's hella gay that the rich people of America outright feel that they can get away with anything. but the answer to that is reining in the current system, not crashing it and replacing it with a fairy tale
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Nov 28, 2016 21:19
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What reforms would you suggest to fix the lack of democratic control of the economy as a whole?
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Nov 28, 2016 21:21
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:have you considered that there are good and less good ways of implementing capitalism, same for socialism. hell I'd even argue that capitalism and socialism are not even really in opposition because socialism can only exist in a stable state as part of a capitalist system lol
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Nov 28, 2016 21:21
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haha that Castro... what a guy.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:23
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Fiction posted:What reforms would you suggest to fix the lack of democratic control of the economy as a whole? make mr sanders not lose the next election, participate in the Democratic Party and change it from within so it's not republican-lite anymore hth
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Nov 28, 2016 21:25
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Whatever you think of Castro, or Che for that matter, one fact is incontestable: they were fuckin' cool. They weren't New Socialist Men, they were Great (Macho) Men of Action. Castro ruling Cuba is like if Lord Byron had lived to see Greek independence and been made king. Not necessarily a good idea, but pretty loving cool nonetheless.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:30
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Whatever you think of Castro, or Che for that matter, one fact is incontestable: they were fuckin' cool. They weren't New Socialist Men, they were Great (Macho) Men of Action. Castro ruling Cuba is like if Lord Byron had lived to see Greek independence and been made king. Not necessarily a good idea, but pretty loving cool nonetheless. oh yeah castro was baller as hell sure i'll smoke cigars so much that it becomes the most iconic part of my image and still somehow live until i'm loving 90
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Nov 28, 2016 21:32
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Homework Explainer posted:yep. people conveniently forget this and other historical factors when they want to poo poo on actually existing socialism so i'm glad you're aware of it I did a big report on Eastern Germany's economy for an economic class and it was really interesting. Something stupid like 90%+ of the east's infrastructure was destroyed in the war and it still managed to become the 2nd largest manufacturer in the USSR next to Russia itself. For me I'm much less invested in the dumb ideological pissing match and more interested in what actually works hence my disgust of the Brooklyn establishment.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:32
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This is a cool sterilized discussion about capitalism, that ignores the racist latifundia system that actually existed in Cuba.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:50
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:this is why people are rather eager to invest in western countries, slightly less eager but still willing to invest in china and Russia, and not very willing to invest in Ethiopia where the government will simply nationalise your assets as they see fit Wonder why the US places western friendly dictators everywhere. Idk, like Cuba or something lol
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Nov 28, 2016 22:32
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zen death robot posted:I have a decent 401k I guess I'm gonna get skinned alive when the revolution comes unless your personal 401k is a big enough fund to exercise controlling interest in something you're not actually a capitalist. You don't even have shareholder rights.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:39
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castro was a good man and his only great failure was allowing ted cruz's dad to escape the island
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Nov 28, 2016 23:04
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Rafael Cruz killed JFK though
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Nov 28, 2016 23:07
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castro survived over 600 cia assassination attempts and jfk couldn't even survive one smh
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Nov 28, 2016 23:08
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jarofpiss posted:castro survived over 600 cia assassination attempts and jfk couldn't even survive one smh It's a mistake that it was one attempt on JFK - 
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Nov 28, 2016 23:11
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Venom Snake posted:I did a big report on Eastern Germany's economy for an economic class and it was really interesting. Something stupid like 90%+ of the east's infrastructure was destroyed in the war and it still managed to become the 2nd largest manufacturer in the USSR next to Russia itself. yep, that's a common thread. the universally stunning economic achievements of those countries is a big part of why i'm a drat dirty red and want to see what kind of insane futuretech would come out of a socialist state with the united states' economy
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Nov 29, 2016 00:42
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Homework Explainer posted:yep, that's a common thread. the universally stunning economic achievements of those countries is a big part of why i'm a drat dirty red and want to see what kind of insane futuretech would come out of a socialist state with the united states' economy To be fair you can't ignore that people were not happy living in the USSR (that is to say, unhappy not living in hell). Especially in the lesser states that got hosed over a lot in favor of the bigger ones. Id like a socialist state that has as much person freedom as the US does. Super Science is cool tho
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Nov 29, 2016 00:55
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Homework Explainer posted:yep, that's a common thread. the universally stunning economic achievements of those countries is a big part of why i'm a drat dirty red and want to see what kind of insane futuretech would come out of a socialist state with the united states' economy well, its back to wiping with pravda for the greater good i guess, you've convinced me how do you reckon the us got to its amazing economic states in the first place lol
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Nov 29, 2016 01:53
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:well, its back to wiping with pravda for the greater good i guess, you've convinced me Central planning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_planning#United_States
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Nov 29, 2016 02:01
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socialismo o muerte
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Nov 29, 2016 02:04
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:how do you reckon the us got to its amazing economic states in the first place lol lol genocide, cotton monopoly, not being destroyed in 2 world wars, having centuries headstart with industrialization, recycling capital to now less developed/destroyed nations, capitalizing on 3rd world sweatshops, 40 years of speculative working class debt? Deimus has issued a correction as of 02:13 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 02:09
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Central planning. I really don't get why people act as if tax cuts and small government won the cold war lmao. The US central government just outspent the Soviet central government.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:10
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:well, its back to wiping with pravda for the greater good i guess, you've convinced me a nearly 100 year head start, in addition to what's already been mentioned
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Nov 29, 2016 02:10
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Central planning.* * - AKA mixed economy, not to be confused with the communist kind
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Nov 29, 2016 02:12
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Venom Snake posted:I really don't get why people act as if tax cuts and small government won the cold war lmao. The US central government just outspent the Soviet central government. The massive amounts of public investiture into roads, canals, tunnels, and railroads were also the only reason America had a unified economy in the 19th century. Bulgogi Hoagie posted:* - AKA mixed economy, not to be confused with the communist kind China has the most thoroughly mixed economy in the world right now. 
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Nov 29, 2016 02:12
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Homework Explainer posted:a nearly 100 year head start, in addition to what's already been mentioned did somebody force the soviets to occupy all of these countries they didn't need and enter a dick measuring contest with the previously friendly (and allied) west or something
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Nov 29, 2016 02:15
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The massive amounts of public investiture into roads, canals, tunnels, and railroads were also the only reason America had a unified economy in the 19th century. good, so i guess that means that communism can work, if you turn it into capitalism. mind blowing
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Nov 29, 2016 02:17
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:good, so i guess that means that communism can work, if you turn it into capitalism. mind blowing China was growing at the same high rate before the capitalist faction took over.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:22
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4 years in the camps for wasting food. glory to c-spamzcka
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Nov 29, 2016 02:24
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State capitalism owns, it is known.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:25
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Deimus posted:China was growing at the same high rate before the capitalist faction took over. so, we're talking before deng, as in the the mao cultural revolution decade? that's fantastic then. amazing economic growth results. wait what do you mean tens of millions dead
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Nov 29, 2016 02:27
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:so, we're talking before deng, as in the the mao cultural revolution decade? that's fantastic then. amazing economic growth results. wait what do you mean tens of millions dead Deimus has issued a correction as of 02:52 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 02:43
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Deimus posted:Lets assume the 'Black Book of Communism' hasn't been debunked multiple times and was right, you'd have to be incredibly disingenuous to assume that famines only happen in communist countries and not (developing) 3rd world countries in general, all the time, and try to make an ideological point of it. i have no idea what you're on about, but you should keep defending a period of chinas history even the communist party has officially disowned. estimates of mortality in the millions are pretty widely cited maos policies had nothing to do with mortality here, of course. absolutely no contribution whatsoever despite all the well documented violent repression
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Nov 29, 2016 02:59
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:i have no idea what you're on about, but you should keep defending a period of chinas history even the communist party has officially disowned. estimates of mortality in the millions are pretty widely cited The capitalist faction hated mao and the maoists and said things that were later proven false about the period. Weird I know.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:06
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Deimus posted:The capitalist faction hated mao and the maoists and said things that were later proven false about the period. Weird I know. lol mao did nothing wrong the chinese bourgeoisie literally conspired to make him look bad
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Nov 29, 2016 03:11
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Deimus posted:Lets assume the 'Black Book of Communism' hasn't been debunked multiple times and was right, you'd have to be incredibly disingenuous to assume that famines only happen in communist countries and not (developing) 3rd world countries in general, all the time, and try to make an ideological point of it. Not to defend the guy who doesn't know what he's talking about, but even ascribing the most benign motives to all involved, Mao's government played a substantial role in exacerbating the famine that coincided with the GLF. When vast numbers of people are dying of hunger and your nation is exporting foodstuffs for economic reasons, "poo poo happens" doesn't really constitute a defense -- I'm looking at you, Lord John Russell.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:13
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