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sweart gliwere posted:Not that reasserting reality is helped when you've got an incoming Trump admin choice's son spreading #pizzagate poo poo. He really struck gold with the Flynn pick.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 15:58 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 10:38 |
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Toplowtech posted:The Pizzagate is your classical "all lefties are pedophiles, he is a picture i wrote on a pizzabox to prove it to you" right-wing gutter tabloid propaganda (and it manage to make me angry by bringing indestructible tabloid UK meme "involve Madeleine McCann". At this point just accuse Hillary of raping batboy while shooting JFK, it would be more creative jesus) but yeah the effort to censor it off the internet in the name of fighting against FAKE NEWS(it's more of an admission classical media are unable to fight lovely conspiracy theories than anything else), is just going to allow it to spread with an aura of "so true, it's getting censored", it doesn't deserve. Part of the problem is the difficulty of proving a negative. You can debunk some of the individual pieces of "evidence" being thrown around, but you can't affirmatively show that there's no child molestation going on at Comet Ping Pong. All you can do is point out that the evidence is super flimsy, and that's not enough for someone who's ideologically/emotionally motivated to believe it.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 16:18 |
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botany posted:I don't live in the US.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 16:26 |
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Silver2195 posted:Part of the problem is the difficulty of proving a negative. You can debunk some of the individual pieces of "evidence" being thrown around, but you can't affirmatively show that there's no child molestation going on at Comet Ping Pong. All you can do is point out that the evidence is super flimsy, and that's not enough for someone who's ideologically/emotionally motivated to believe it.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 16:27 |
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Toplowtech posted:Yeah you can either ignore it or mock it. It's the current "Ted Cruz is the zodiac killer". To be fair, there's actual specific evidence against that one, namely that the murders began before Cruz was born. Also, almost everyone who claims Ted Cruz is the Zodiac Killer is joking, while the Pizzagate people are mostly serious. A better comparison would be the idea that Ted Cruz's father killed JFK. The evidence for it basically amounts to "he's Cuban and has dark hair."
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 16:30 |
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Silver2195 posted:To be fair, there's actual specific evidence against that one, namely that the murders began before Cruz was born. Also, almost everyone who claims Ted Cruz is the Zodiac Killer is joking, while the Pizzagate people are mostly serious. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Dec 5, 2016 |
# ? Dec 5, 2016 16:33 |
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Silver2195 posted:Part of the problem is the difficulty of proving a negative. You can debunk some of the individual pieces of "evidence" being thrown around, but you can't affirmatively show that there's no child molestation going on at Comet Ping Pong. All you can do is point out that the evidence is super flimsy, and that's not enough for someone who's ideologically/emotionally motivated to believe it. This is simply an extension of the same stuff that's been done with abortion clinics in the past. And I'm happily surprised that it didn't come to blows yesterday, though I don't see it getting better before it gets solved. But in the current broken state of the US, where people think Freedom of Speech means you can make actionable lies about public or private figures without any punishment. I guess now if you don't support the proper political candidate, the right-wing media can fabricate lies about you being a pedo until the tin foil hat brigade shows up to murder you. After all, we didn't do poo poo about it after George Tiller or any of people in CO Springs were killed by nuts who bought into the right-wing media's fabrications about these people. The ability to create a well crafted lie and repeat it ad naseum until one of the crazies out there finally snaps and does the bidding of the propaganda machine is a skill that's been honed for years and years with no actual punishment towards the perpetrators.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 16:47 |
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Toplowtech posted:Yeah you can either ignore it or mock it. It's the current "Ted Cruz is the zodiac killer". When people start physically attacking Ted Cruz for being the Zodiac Killer, you might have a point. These lies are specifically set up to punish someone for standard political involvement, with the punishment being death. I'd say that's as far from the Zodiac Killer joke as you can get.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 16:51 |
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rkajdi posted:This is simply an extension of the same stuff that's been done with abortion clinics in the past. And I'm happily surprised that it didn't come to blows yesterday, though I don't see it getting better before it gets solved. But in the current broken state of the US, where people think Freedom of Speech means you can make actionable lies about public or private figures without any punishment. I guess now if you don't support the proper political candidate, the right-wing media can fabricate lies about you being a pedo until the tin foil hat brigade shows up to murder you. After all, we didn't do poo poo about it after George Tiller or any of people in CO Springs were killed by nuts who bought into the right-wing media's fabrications about these people. The ability to create a well crafted lie and repeat it ad naseum until one of the crazies out there finally snaps and does the bidding of the propaganda machine is a skill that's been honed for years and years with no actual punishment towards the perpetrators. I don't remember any conspiracy theories about Tiller, and even in the Colorado Springs case, the false assertions were probably beside the point. Passionate rhetoric is not the same as a conspiracy theory. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Dec 5, 2016 |
# ? Dec 5, 2016 16:57 |
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rkajdi posted:When people start physically attacking Ted Cruz for being the Zodiac Killer, you might have a point. These lies are specifically set up to punish someone for standard political involvement, with the punishment being death. I'd say that's as far from the Zodiac Killer joke as you can get. Making an equivalency between the pizzagate thing and 'ted cruz is the zodiac killer' is divorced from reality entirely, I agree. 'Ted Cruz is the Zodiac Killer' is a a dumb meme people shared for a few weeks, Pizzagate is almost certainly a propaganda effort to radicalise mentally unstable people into violence.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 17:00 |
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^^^^i have a hard time reading the original PROOF BY VAGUE TERMS IN THE EMAILS.jpg and not consider it as insane as accusing a man of being a serial killer who murderer people before he was even born. But that's mostly because of the whole part were it goes full UK tabloid "OUR MADDY" drive me to insane level of hilarity. Sorry you find one more credible than the other. Both are poo poo, and target people dumb enough to believe them. The fact one can be taken as joke by most people and the other not, is just a slight difference in the number of idiots who can believe it.rkajdi posted:This is simply an extension of the same stuff that's been done with abortion clinics in the past. rkajdi posted:When people start physically attacking Ted Cruz for being the Zodiac Killer, you might have a point. These lies are specifically set up to punish someone for standard political involvement, with the punishment being death. I'd say that's as far from the Zodiac Killer joke as you can get. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Dec 5, 2016 |
# ? Dec 5, 2016 17:00 |
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rkajdi posted:When people start physically attacking Ted Cruz for being the Zodiac Killer, you might have a point. These lies are specifically set up to punish someone for standard political involvement, with the punishment being death. I'd say that's as far from the Zodiac Killer joke as you can get. Yeah, it's important to remember that the TC zodiac killer was a comedy option for a PPP poll, and PPP almost always has comedy options included as a harmless way to grab attention. Cruz's dad was actually singled out by Donald Trump as a JFK killing conspirator. One is a comedy meme for internet progressives with no actual depth to belief or support or conspiracy, the other is a reckless claim by a political figure whose only defense is his habitual lying. "Many people are saying" or "I didn't mean that literally" about simple, literal claims, again and again.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 17:04 |
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Toplowtech posted:The fact one can be taken as joke by most people and the other not, is just a slight difference in the number of idiots who can believe it. Isn't that a large part of the issue though? It an entirely different thing when something shows up for crazy tinfoil hat conspiracists who also take pride in being armed. I get the impression you are coming from the UK where this kind of thing isn't constantly threatened by half of the rural people. It's especially damning since it's very obvious what's going on, but the left just seems to mumble something about rights while not even trying to make anyone answer for it. quote:Yeah or what was done in the last few decade of tabloid press or when the mainstream media covered the aluminum tubes in Iraq accusation poo poo or any US sponsored war. I agree this is true for the whole GW2 lead up, but throwing stuff from tabloids in there makes zero sense. Nobody's dying over "who boffed who", but yet again we're dealing with literal crazies with guns coming out of the woodwork at the behest of z-tier net celebs like Alex Jones. If it doesn't scare you that we've seeded all this power to people so far down the ladder of respectability and sanity than I don't know what to tell you.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 20:18 |
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botany posted:I don't live in the US. What is your citizenship? I ask because this thread has a heavy pair of US-focused blinders on it given the recent election cycle where fake news and accountability vs free speech are topics that have interesting twists all across the globe.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 21:22 |
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Potato Salad posted:What is your citizenship? I'm not interested in having a debate with you, Potato Salad. There are smart posters here I'd love to have a discussion on free speech with, but you're not one of them.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 21:26 |
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Potato Salad posted:What is your citizenship? I ask because this thread has a heavy pair of US-focused blinders on it given the recent election cycle where fake news and accountability vs free speech are topics that have interesting twists all across the globe. Ummm pretty sure Australia has had a heavy mention of "places where mainstream media is, infact, poo poo"
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 22:38 |
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So, articles right now aren't pushing what could be called outright fake news, but more of the FAU "falsehood slipping alongside truth" in headlines is taking place regarding Pizzagate in the states and it's pissing me off, and it's anger directed at my side of the political spectrum. Headlines are trying to tie Pizzagate directly to violence here: Spin.com What Is Pizzagate? The Insane Child Sex Conspiracy Theory That Led a Man to Fire a Rifle in a Restaurant, Explained Spin.com ‘Pizzagate’ hoax shows potentially lethal side of fake news MarketWatch What Is Pizzagate? The Insane Child Sex Conspiracy Theory That Led a Man to Fire a Rifle in a Restaurant, Explained God loving drat it, CNN Fake news, real violence: 'Pizzagate' and the consequences of an Internet echo chamber Fox How an Internet conspiracy theory led a gunman into a DC pizza parlor (admissibly this is a less-direct "Guy goes postal because conspiracy theory told him to") Heh, the Independent What is Pizzagate? The wild Hillary Clinton conspiracy theory that led to a man opening fire in an Italian restaurant Plenty of weird poo poo happens in the US regarding guns. For some reason, the bit where a man fired an assault rifle at someone walking a dog thinking that it was a clown during the big clown scare earlier this fall comes to mind. The existence of pizzagate at all ticks me off, but drat it we don't need to blow poo poo out of proportion and try desperately to imply that it was the pizzagate conspiracy movement that actually called for the shooter in the Comet store to go, well, ballistic. I have borne personal witness to /r/the_donald convincing ex-enlightened people (well, singular person) that he needed to buy a gun to protect himself from BLM rioting, but to directly try to imply "alt-right fake news forces or coerces man to shooting" in headlines does nothing to further inform the public. I see these headlines doing more harm than good, permitting more and more /pol/ and /r/the_donald converts to continue to source-select news ever more stringently as clearly these outlets are out to cast them as the devil no matter what. You know what? They aren't completely wrong. botany posted:I'm not interested in having a debate with you, Potato Salad. There are smart posters here I'd love to have a discussion on free speech with, but you're not one of them. I'm not really interested in debating anyone. Hopefully a thread on fake news can really just be about fake news and not personal stuff. Low-effort half-sentence posting however Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Dec 5, 2016 |
# ? Dec 5, 2016 22:47 |
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Potato Salad posted:I'm not really interested in debating anyone. Hopefully a thread on fake news can really just be about fake news and not personal stuff. Nice edit. If you were serious about the suicidal thoughts thing, please seek therapy.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 22:51 |
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Potato Salad posted:So, articles right now aren't pushing what could be called outright fake news, but more of the FAU "falsehood slipping alongside truth" in headlines is taking place regarding Pizzagate in the states and it's pissing me off, and it's anger directed at my side of the political spectrum. Headlines are trying to tie Pizzagate directly to violence here: If you think that inflammatory rhetoric somehow isn't associated with a potential for violent actions, then lol buddy have I got news for you
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 22:52 |
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Recoome posted:If you think that inflammatory rhetoric somehow isn't associated with a potential for violent actions, then lol buddy have I got news for you Yeah, I see where inflammatory rhetoric radicalizes people. I'm not convinced it would be unfair after a more complete reading on this shooting in a week to characterize the guy as directly radicalized / inflamed to violence by fake news, specifically Pizzagate, especially if more about his online activity comes to light. Are these headlines being fair? Edit: Better question - is fairness even an element of fake news / misleading headlines, or is it something else that's important? Truth? Is it in fact true that the #Pizzagate "theory that led to a man opening fire in an Italian restaurant" per the Independent headline? Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 5, 2016 |
# ? Dec 5, 2016 22:55 |
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Potato Salad posted:Yeah, I see where inflammatory rhetoric radicalizes people. I'm not convinced it would be unfair after a more complete reading on this shooting in a week to characterize the guy as directly radicalized / inflamed to violence by fake news, specifically Pizzagate, especially if more about his online activity comes to light. I'd call a spade a spade in this case, so yeah I think they fair. The "pizzagate" conspiracy or whatever lame loving name it has, at the very least, facilitated that particular attack. If you are some right-winger dude and are salty that right wing dudes are being called out on it, then just lol
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 22:58 |
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The
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 23:01 |
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Also I didn't detect it before but at forums poster Potato Salad all but saying they are stereotyping us as bad people
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 23:51 |
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Potato Salad posted:I'm not really interested in debating anyone. Hopefully a thread on fake news can really just be about fake news and not personal stuff. Low-effort half-sentence posting however I don't know what the gently caress you want from me, I asked somebody else a question and you posted a full on paragraph accusing me of being an uninformed idiot for no reason. If you're not interested in getting personal, maybe don't do it.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 23:57 |
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Potato Salad posted:Are these headlines being fair? The man carried his gun across state lines to investigate what Pizzagate proponents would tell you (and did tell him) is a den of child trafficking murderpedos, and threatened employees before firing his gun in the restaurant. I don't know what part of the headline would be unfair or untrue, based on current information. What missing piece of the puzzle do you imagine will add the needed context? Pizzagate itself is fake news (or, at best a conspiracy joke, spread to and thriving in an unwell community), a deranged man taking fake news seriously and endangering others is real news.
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# ? Dec 5, 2016 23:57 |
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All those headlines are fine. They lay out clearly that this is a fringe conspiracy theory that led an armed man to assault a pizza place.
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 00:02 |
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sweart gliwere posted:Pizzagate itself is fake news... Yeah this thing is really weird. I was reading the comments section on it (I know I know) and apparently a disturbingly large percentage of people think there's a real story here. I guess they had a bunch of weird artwork hung up and Wikileaks had a bunch of "coded" emails and hole-lee poo poo. The fact that MSM says it's all bullshit only seems to confirm the beliefs of the more conspiracy minded folks who think that the DNC and Hillary/Obama control all aspects of the media and determine what we get told. Never read the comments, BiggerBoat, as fascinating as it was. For a while there, I could actually see how a naive person could believe it.
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 00:12 |
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botany posted:I don't know what the gently caress you want from me, I asked somebody else a question and you posted a full on paragraph accusing me of being an uninformed idiot for no reason. If you're not interested in getting personal, maybe don't do it. I need to straight-up apologize for my posting earlier. I did in fact just...like, pointlessly jump on a "much of the world doesn't actually see free speech like the US" by injecting myself into an exchange you were already having with someone else. I could have left you out of it entirely, but I for some reason saw red and lost composure
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 00:12 |
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Potato Salad, do you understand that this (fairly sophisticated, honestly) propaganda tactic of neo-nazis creating conspiracy theories about left-wing politicians being involved with pedophile rings is very likely a contributing factor that led to the murder of Jo Cox?
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 00:22 |
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sweart gliwere posted:The man carried his gun across state lines to investigate what Pizzagate proponents would tell you (and did tell him) is a den of child trafficking murderpedos, and threatened employees before firing his gun in the restaurant. I don't know what part of the headline would be unfair or untrue, based on current information. The guy that brought the gun to the Pizzagate place has the unfortunate history of being an extra in a few movies, or at least, has the name of a guy who was an extra in a few movies. He is now part of the conspiracy and a "crisis actor".
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 00:35 |
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Potato Salad, do you understand that this (fairly sophisticated, honestly) propaganda tactic of neo-nazis creating conspiracy theories about left-wing politicians being involved with pedophile rings is very likely a contributing factor that led to the murder of Jo Cox? I had to look her name up, but I indeed read her story. It was the radicalization of my lifelong liberal roommate via the_donald conspiracy theories and my introduction to the very present threat that are 3% and Oathkeeper nuts by a 3%er friend (I was an amateur gun smith by hobby in my youth) that remobilized me politically in Georgia after moving down here from Vermont. Cobb County voted blue this year, and I'd like to think it was in a small part due to awareness on some issues you don't get exposed to otherwise in RWM. East Cobb (I don't live there) is a very rich, spoiled, yet educated area. I wanted to simultaneously slap and cry over some people. I've never encountered such a volume of hatred behind a smile and sweetvoice in the northeast, go figure. I was grasping for straws on those headlines.
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 00:51 |
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Potato Salad, do you understand that this (fairly sophisticated, honestly) propaganda tactic of neo-nazis creating conspiracy theories about left-wing politicians being involved with pedophile rings is very likely a contributing factor that led to the murder of Jo Cox?
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 02:01 |
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If you want to see what a paedo elites conspiracy looks like you could look at something that may have allegedly happened like Thatcher's cabinet and their alleged activities
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 02:10 |
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Byolante posted:If you want to see what a paedo elites conspiracy looks like you could look at something that may have allegedly happened like Thatcher's cabinet and their alleged activities there is literally a DC pedophile conspiracy sitting in cold storage just waiting to be pulled out and reused, but the dumbasses in charge of making this poo poo up decided to half-rear end it and just make up some dumbass code where "pasta" means "little girl" or some poo poo.
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 03:22 |
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Potato Salad posted:So, articles right now aren't pushing what could be called outright fake news, but more of the FAU "falsehood slipping alongside truth" in headlines is taking place regarding Pizzagate in the states and it's pissing me off, and it's anger directed at my side of the political spectrum. Headlines are trying to tie Pizzagate directly to violence here: Are you suggesting that this person would have done what he did regardless of this pizzagate thing? Otherwise isn't it directly related? I don't know why I put question marks on the end of those. You are suggesting that. Let me tell you. Nobody would have fired their gun in a pizzeria while "investigating Pizzagate" if there were not a bunch of gibbering trump stans posting all over the internet about pizzagate. I'm sorry that your side of the political spectrum makes your side of the political spectrum look bad. Present company included.
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 04:26 |
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Apparently Edgar Welch was going to the pizza place to specifically rescue children that the thought were being held there. I wonder if he can make an affirmative defense when he ends up in court.
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 17:15 |
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Potato Salad posted:So, articles right now aren't pushing what could be called outright fake news, but more of the FAU "falsehood slipping alongside truth" in headlines is taking place regarding Pizzagate in the states and it's pissing me off, and it's anger directed at my side of the political spectrum. Headlines are trying to tie Pizzagate directly to violence here: Now you know how Muslims feel. Perhaps you should try denouncing the violence?
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 17:18 |
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Pizzagate is almost certainly a propaganda effort to radicalise mentally unstable people into violence.
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 17:51 |
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Byolante posted:If you want to see what a paedo elites conspiracy looks like you could look at something that may have allegedly happened like Thatcher's cabinet and their alleged activities Yeah, the weird thing is there's probably a fair amount of actual child rape by politicians and their buddies...but it's the pareidolia and not the more plausible allegations that take off on Reddit et al. I think some of this is partisanship; if Bill was raping girls on Epstein's jet, Donald probably was too, but the Pizzagate allegations are directed exclusively at Democrats (as far as I know). Some of it is also frustration at the lack of a "smoking gun," leading people to convince themselves that something totally innocent is a smoking gun. The weirder factor, though (which I don't really understand) is that it's not enough for some people that politicians are raping kids; they have to be doing it as part of a Satanic ritual. It's tempting to attribute this to an Evangelical religious background, but many of the people who latch onto this sort of thing seem to be non-religious.
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 21:20 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 10:38 |
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Silver2195 posted:Yeah, the weird thing is there's probably a fair amount of actual child rape by politicians and their buddies...but it's the pareidolia and not the more plausible allegations that take off on Reddit et al. I think some of this is partisanship; if Bill was raping girls on Epstein's jet, Donald probably was too, but the Pizzagate allegations are directed exclusively at Democrats (as far as I know). Some of it is also frustration at the lack of a "smoking gun," leading people to convince themselves that something totally innocent is a smoking gun. The weirder factor, though (which I don't really understand) is that it's not enough for some people that politicians are raping kids; they have to be doing it as part of a Satanic ritual. It's tempting to attribute this to an Evangelical religious background, but many of the people who latch onto this sort of thing seem to be non-religious. A lot of people I know who are especially into the weird Illuminati/satanic ritual side of conspiracy theories wouldn't describe themselves as religious but definitely would describe themselves as spiritual. And that label stretches all the way from pantheism ("I don't actually worship any of them, but I believe that all religions are simultaneously correct and all gods are real") to Alex Grey-style psychedelia ("there are beings beyond our dimension and we can only communicate with them by doing poo poo tons of DMT") to vague world-worship ("All the cosmos are one and I'm one with the cosmos"). The only thing they all have in common is that they believe that the people who secretly run the world all engage in dark rituals even if they don't actually believe these rituals do anything or mean anything. It's just another thing for them to get riled up over
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# ? Dec 6, 2016 23:31 |