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so in that star wars movie, return of the jedi, you had this big climactic battle at the end where the rebels attack the new death star. the famous ship of the series, the millennium falcon, participates in the big battle, being crewed by the non-main characters. this suddenly struck me as very odd. like, that ship participated in the first death star fight but only because of an insane decision by Han Solo to just fly into the active war zone as a total surprise. We're told it's a very fast smuggling ship; his decision to try to help, especially without informing his allied side, had to seem like total suicide assuming he started heading there before all the rebels got blown away and must not have felt like it was getting to be a better idea as he got closer. i mean his ship is not a military vessel and it is not escorted. the entire rebel attack force is nearly dead. wouldn't he think his chances are really bad? granted, Han Solo is depicted as a very brave and stupid character so it fits. but then the second deathstar fight was seemingly planned carefully by military strategists. everything else deployed are like military vessels with stuff designed specifically for fighting. They're like naval destroyers and carriers and the individual fighters are like advanced combat aircraft. at what point where they like, ok, you know that speedboat you use to smuggle coke across borders in? let's take that too. it will be integral in the final assault. anyway, just was thinking it was weird. what do you guys think? any other things about star wars that don't make sense? |
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Dec 2, 2016 11:35
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 06:54 |
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I don't think the speed boat comparison is a fair one. He flies around in lawless space and can fit his ship for combat too. Plus the rebels were under equipped and under funded compared to the Empire and could probably use any reasonable ship that they can get. Doctrines are important but they do not have the luxury to turn down a quality ship in an all or nothing fight.
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Dec 2, 2016 11:41
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yes, quite. the rebel fleet is home to a smattering of ragtag retooled civilian vessels due to their access to serious military infrastructure being largely limited to the shipyards on Mon Calamari. the millennium falcon is no beauty, but lando calrissian is an ace pilot and he's comfortable flying it while he probably could not fly, say, a destroyer or a y-wing with any degree of proficiency. why waste a crack pilot who wants to fly for you? it's also well armed enough to bring down multiple fighter craft with not much trouble, so a speedboat is hardly an apposite comparison. that's not even getting into the piloting capabilities of nien nunb, lando's co-pilot, also a smuggler whose piloting experience is mostly restricted to freighter craft - and who is also highly skilled enough to be similarly invaluable to the rebel cause. really, joke explainer, did you think this through at all? do you suggest that rebel high command should have relegated nien nunb, decorated hero of alderaan, to the command of some officious ex-republic gunnery sergeant? even apart from the differences in skillset, the personality clashes alone would have been hideous for operational cohesion! |
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Dec 2, 2016 12:45
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listen, i know admiral ackbar is a great commander. in fact, he's one of the best. but that doesn't mean he can take smugglers accustomed to piloting heavily armed freighters, pop them down on the bridge of his ex-republic cruiser, and expect them to behave like decorated corellian naval captain gilad pellaeon. what does han solo know of the chain of command? how much respect can lando possibly have for the ex-republic stuffed shirts he's spent his career defying? i shudder to think of the military disaster that would likely have ensued for the rebel alliance and the residents of the forest moon, endor, if your nightmarishly misguided "thoughts" on the "matter" had been taken seriously! |
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Dec 2, 2016 12:54
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Gunnery Officer: We're under attack! Han Solo [smirking]: I know. |
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Dec 2, 2016 12:59
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disclaimer: I've never watched a whole star wars movie. I think they should've let him play football |
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Dec 2, 2016 13:00
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the Falcon controls like poo poo in Rogue Squadron 64. big luke was right: it's a piece of junk
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Dec 2, 2016 15:30
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Android Blues posted:Gunnery Officer: We're under attack! |
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Dec 2, 2016 15:46
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 you got served
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Dec 2, 2016 16:01
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Have you ever noticed that George/whoever else was in charge were pretty much making everything up as the went along? There are also some really smart and neat subtleties that never seem to get acknowledged, so it sort of balances out.
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Dec 2, 2016 19:01
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You bring up a good point While reading I was about to make Vynar's point, with a subtle addition of "they could have better executed the 'rag tag' aspect of the rebel army if this is the direction they were going" I think the decision to make the MF the lead craft in the final assault was probably fan service. I mean they just spent three movies developing the characters, the movie was extremely delayed, it had a very loyal following of fans at this point. I'm sure they knew if they went a different direction there would be sad faces. Admiral Ackbar: "You've sold out several of our top leaders to the enemy, your ship is an ancient freighter retrofitted to be competitive, and we've seen over and over it's unreliable, I can think of no better combo to lead the final attack which will determine the fate of our cause."
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Dec 2, 2016 19:08
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Side note: I also did not see the film so please take this into consideration with my opinion
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Dec 2, 2016 19:09
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disclaimer: I've never watched a whole star wars movie. why do the stars hate each other? |
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Dec 2, 2016 19:09
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social vegan posted:disclaimer: I've never watched a whole star wars movie. something to do with trade agreements, i believe or possibly dashing rogues who shoot first and are edited for special re-release later
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Dec 2, 2016 19:46
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social vegan posted:disclaimer: I've never watched a whole star wars movie. Because the Teutonic knights have conquered Pskov and only Alexander Nevsky, Prince of Novgorod, stands between them and Rus. Historical Wizards fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Dec 2, 2016
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Dec 2, 2016 20:06
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In that star wars movie, Star Wars, Luke Starwars faces off against his evil space father, Darth Father, in the battle of a lifetime: hand-to-hand combat aboard the Starwars Express, fastest ship in the galaxy, and let me tell you, hoo boy, it does NOT go easy for Luke! |
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Dec 2, 2016 20:11
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Android Blues posted:yes, quite. the rebel fleet is home to a smattering of ragtag retooled civilian vessels due to their access to serious military infrastructure being largely limited to the shipyards on Mon Calamari. the millennium falcon is no beauty, but lando calrissian is an ace pilot and he's comfortable flying it while he probably could not fly, say, a destroyer or a y-wing with any degree of proficiency. why waste a crack pilot who wants to fly for you? it's also well armed enough to bring down multiple fighter craft with not much trouble, so a speedboat is hardly an apposite comparison. im kinda hot and bothered by this, got anymore? ---------------- |
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Dec 2, 2016 20:18
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I have some hot takes on Elan Sleazebaggano, the cigarette vendor who Obi-Wan mind tricks in that other star wars movie, but I'm afraid that would be straying from the heart of the thread. |
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Dec 2, 2016 20:21
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Android Blues posted:I have some hot takes on Elan Sleazebaggano, the cigarette vendor who Obi-Wan mind tricks in that other star wars movie, but I'm afraid that would be straying from the heart of the thread. sleazebaggano cigarettes: a name you can trust look at me, I'm don draper |
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Dec 2, 2016 20:33
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that's a good point about Lando being more use in the Falcon than being like 'so, during your years of floating colony administration and criminal smuggling activities, did you ever qualify to fly an A-wing?'. It was established that it was previously his ship I believe. But yeah, it does seem weird to rest so much on it. Have it involved in the combat air patrol keeping bombers away from the big mon calamari ships. I didn't even think of the unreliability thing. Thanks for your good points though, everyone. Android Blues posted:I have some hot takes on Elan Sleazebaggano, the cigarette vendor who Obi-Wan mind tricks in that other star wars movie, but I'm afraid that would be straying from the heart of the thread. no, totally go for it. Feel free to use this thread to discuss anything Star War related. I always wondered about that guy's backstory, and if he's from the Coruscant Sleazebaggano family or the Nar Shadda Sleazebagganos. |
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Dec 2, 2016 21:07
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FactsAreUseless posted:In that star wars movie, Star Wars, Luke Starwars faces off against his evil space father, Darth Father, in the battle of a lifetime: hand-to-hand combat aboard the Starwars Express, fastest ship in the galaxy, and let me tell you, hoo boy, it does NOT go easy for Luke! |
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Dec 2, 2016 21:08
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joke_explainer posted:that's a good point about Lando being more use in the Falcon than being like 'so, during your years of floating colony administration and criminal smuggling activities, did you ever qualify to fly an A-wing?'. It was established that it was previously his ship I believe. Also by the third movie Han is an established hero and rolls with Luke who is their super champion. You can let his buddy fly his old ship. Which is deceptively fast an maneuverable. The point was that it was made to look lovely to attract less attention like one of those drag racing vans with a hidden super powerful engines except it can also turn.
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Dec 2, 2016 21:17
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Everyone laughs at the Stormtroopers being bad shots when they missed people on purpose as ordered. They clearly point out that they are letting them go to track them. And it takes a lot of skill to shoot all around people and not hit them.
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Dec 2, 2016 21:18
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Vynar posted:Everyone laughs at the Stormtroopers being bad shots when they missed people on purpose as ordered. They clearly point out that they are letting them go to track them. And it takes a lot of skill to shoot all around people and not hit them. Especially when they are shooting at and killing you, I'd guess. |
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Dec 2, 2016 21:49
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Does anyone have a link to the bigger luke thread |
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Dec 2, 2016 22:13
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I mean i like this thread too i just want to re read that one cause it was real funy |
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Dec 2, 2016 22:14
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alnilam posted:Does anyone have a link to the bigger luke thread it's here and also i had forgotten about this absolutely incredible post FutonForensic posted:warden: Cool Hand Luke, the prison party is in thirty minutes and none of these beers are cold!! you need to chill them with your cool hands and get them over to the mess hall ASAP! |
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Dec 2, 2016 22:23
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the fact that bigger cool hand luke's identity is but a delicate implication, the fact that he has significantly colder hands than the regular cool hand luke, and the fact that cool hand luke's hands are literally cool and are frequently used for cryonic purposes...it's a tour de force and i love it |
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Dec 2, 2016 22:36
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Anyone else find it weird that Vader, a guy who no one respects, who is essentially a disposable attack dog for Grand Moff Tarken, gets promoted to be in charge of a giant fleet? In the first movie not only does Tarken die, but his whole space station is destroyed, and Vader tasked himself with preventing its destruction and failed! Not to mention his complete failure to recover the stolen Deathstar plans even though he has magic powers. Why did this loser get an entire fleet? And I don't want to hear any "extended universe" poppycock
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Dec 3, 2016 00:06
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Historical Wizards posted:Anyone else find it weird that Vader, a guy who no one respects, who is essentially a disposable attack dog for Grand Moff Tarken, gets promoted to be in charge of a giant fleet? In the first movie not only does Tarken die, but his whole space station is destroyed, and Vader tasked himself with preventing its destruction and failed! Not to mention his complete failure to recover the stolen Deathstar plans even though he has magic powers. Why did this loser get an entire fleet? because he is an evil space wizard slave to the other more betterer evil space wizard whol is also an emperor king. They have a brotherhood type of thing as the last of the (in the movies anyway) evil space wizards.
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Dec 3, 2016 00:17
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also he lives in a life support suit with most of his body cut off or burned and the empire is an equal opportunity employer
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Dec 3, 2016 00:18
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Vynar posted:also he lives in a life support suit with most of his body cut off or burned and the empire is an equal opportunity employer SEE WHAT YOUR LIBERAL POLICIES HAVE DONE?!~ ---------------- |
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Dec 3, 2016 00:25
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The fleet deployment seems very strange too. Like, why move ALL OF THOSE SHIPS to look for the rebel base. I feel like a lot of the Empire's actions don't respect the political realities of war. We see that the Republic was some sort of interplanetary democracy. There's trade agreements and a state-issued currency and a massive governmental body, the Senate. So we can assume that the Republic, and the Empire, raises credits in order to fill their treasuries. Progressive democracies most valuable resource is productive citizens, as they fill the coffers. Without the productive citizens, they'd be unable to build their Super Star Destroyers and Death Stars. The Emperor does exploit the Senate to get granted emergency power and rush himself into being an autocrat, but there's more to it just than that. I mean, once the immediate situation was over, it's not like merely the power of the law would have kept Palpatine in power. So he has powerful followers that he is rewarding in order to stay in power. Followers that control the military. Small coalition dictatorships tend to be very bad at waging war, at least while the threat of being deposed by a war is low. This is because every dollar they spend on training or equipment, is one less dollar they can use to buy loyalty from the people keeping them in power. Take for example the Six Day War. Facing enormous losses from the better equipped Israel armed forces, the vastly richer coalition of Arab nations ended up surrendering their territory. Why? Because they didn't really care about the territory. Spending too much money was an actual threat to their survivability, as the people keeping them in power want that money. But Israel's leadership's power was based on policy that the civilian population backed. They had the drive to raise enormous expenditure with no real threat to the leaders in power, and direct that to the troops, not to the folks pulling their strings. The Empire is no doubt a small coalition dictatorship, but it doesn't seem to act one. Enormous, interminable deployments? Not practical. What about when they blew up an entire planet of money-making, taxable citizens to prove a point to one lady? If he controls the press, freedom of speech and assembly, he could limit his citizen's awareness of such acts, but in doing so he also vastly limits their productivity and so he would be drastically shortchanging his own funding for military spending. Conversely, how much does the Death Star cost to build? Like. Couldn't he just take that money and implement sweeping social welfare programs and turn the popular tide of thought against the rebellion? Just because he's evil doesn't mean he HAS to back the nasty idea, if doing otherwise could keep him in power. |
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Dec 3, 2016 00:31
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joke_explainer posted:The fleet deployment seems very strange too. Like, why move ALL OF THOSE SHIPS to look for the rebel base. They have so many ships and so many worlds that many was not a big deal. Really it was not a lot. And at the end of the day space wizards are a super high priority target so once Luke reveals himself he is kind of the most important opposition with the most potential to be powerful.
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Dec 3, 2016 00:38
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Historical Wizards posted:And I don't want to hear any "extended universe" poppycock well god what's the point of living then?????? |
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Dec 3, 2016 00:44
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Vynar posted:because he is an evil space wizard slave to the other more betterer evil space wizard whol is also an emperor king. They have a brotherhood type of thing as the last of the (in the movies anyway) evil space wizards. The whole the emperor was a wizard doesn't come into play until six, I don't think its ever eluded to that he has powers in 5, and in 4 I don't think hes even mentioned (behind the scenes the emperor was supposed to be a figurehead)
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Dec 3, 2016 01:06
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I think it should be called the Death Orb. What? The Death Star. I think it should be called the Death Orb. ...Why? It's not shaped like a star. Yes it is. No it isn't. It's an orb. ... Orb. Like a big ball. An orb. ...stars are orbs. Spheres. They're spheres. No they aren't. What? They're uh... pointy. Like on a Christmas tree. Pointy. Yeah. Pointy. You think it should be called the Death Orb, because stars are pointy. Yep. What about the Death Moon? No, that doesn't make any sense either. Why? Moons aren't orbs. |
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Dec 3, 2016 01:18
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Vynar posted:They have so many ships and so many worlds that many was not a big deal. Really it was not a lot. And at the end of the day space wizards are a super high priority target so once Luke reveals himself he is kind of the most important opposition with the most potential to be powerful. Is it really that high priority? Like, will not going and prodding this space wizard result in them being unable to accumulate revenue from their worlds? He only lashes out and kills the Emperor because they're building another Death Star, right? He could have spent that cash on his people and made a return in investment and potentially even defused the rebellion. It also seems hard to believe that that fleet didn't represent a significant chunk of Imperial Naval power. How many Super Star Destroyers did they have, anyway? |
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Dec 3, 2016 01:19
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joke_explainer posted:The fleet deployment seems very strange too. Like, why move ALL OF THOSE SHIPS to look for the rebel base. I feel like a lot of the Empire's actions don't respect the political realities of war. a lot of the empire's economy is based on slavery, chiefly the enslavement of wookiees to work, amongst other places, in the spice mines on kessel. (other alien races are enslaved or treated as second class citizens too, but wookiees are the one most often mentioned). slave labour can prop up an otherwise non-functional economy, and since it's targeted at a marginalised minority group that the majority of imperial citizens view as animals and have no sympathy for, it's sustainable for a reasonably long time too. although not that long: it's worth remembering that the entire reign of the galactic empire from palpatine's coup to vader killing palpatine is only 23 years, which is pretty consistent with a basically non-functional military dictatorship that's slowly collapsing from the inside as it participates in greater and greater excesses of needless cruelty upon its citizens. social welfare programs, while they might have made for a more long-lasting regime, also go against palpatine's basic, insanely nihilistic ultra-libertarian philosophy of "the strong eat the weak, all chaff must be cut, mercy breeds inefficiency". his goal is to remake the galaxy in the image of the sith, because he believes sith philosophy makes for the perfect social configuration and that mercy, justice and equality lead to the corruption, indolence and waste of the galactic republic he so despised. but that's pretty consistent with many real life dictators who have ludicrous political ideas, and he meets a similar end as well - deposed in what is effectively a palace coup by his own heir. a lot of these inconsistencies can be explained by the fact that while palpatine is a cunning schemer, he's also an arrogant maniac who's been in absolute power for 23 years and routinely deploys massive, unnecessary shows of force to hammer home his dominance. blowing up alderaan is the galactic-scale equivalent of a contemporary dictator gassing or barrel bombing their own citizens as a show of authority - horrific, needless, and certainly poor process from a governance standpoint, but something that occurs regardless. alderaan was also a heartland for the rebel movement, so it's likely he did actually kill a huge swathe of his political opponents too, including bail organa, who was perhaps the single most influential rebel alliance figurehead and who had been scheming to depose him for the entire duration of his reign. organa was also one of palpatine's few remaining enemies with any political power, having opposed him in the galactic senate until palpatine officially disbanded it around the beginning of the star wars movie two before the star wars movie under discussion...it's never explicitly stated, but this move by palpatine isn't just him taunting leia and instilling terror in his subjects, it's also him murdering the de facto leader of the opposition in exile and the most significant figurehead that could provide a rallying point against him. |
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Dec 3, 2016 01:23
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 06:54 |
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joke_explainer posted:The fleet deployment seems very strange too. Like, why move ALL OF THOSE SHIPS to look for the rebel base. I feel like a lot of the Empire's actions don't respect the political realities of war. If we're going to start deconstructing Imperial/Republic tactics, let's start with why they have droid and clones face off along two giant opposing lines. It's like they are fighting in 1750 even though they have all the advantages of air and space bombardment, autonomous droids, and space wizards.
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Dec 3, 2016 01:32
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