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Exinos posted:Seeing the /r/starcitizen and /r/dereksmart subs today have made me realize how many of the most toxic backers are also Trump supporters. They are definitely not paid shills, just really loving stupid. I'd like to think our own MAGAboys are a better class of Trump supporter, imo
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Jun 26, 2017 03:56
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vyst posted:it would make me lol that 85% of backer money was mob money it's beautiful
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Jun 26, 2017 03:57
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TheAgent posted:it's a level of Alex Jones crazy and reads like it's been scrubbed through Google translate Well post it already, why do you have to sober up first
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Jun 26, 2017 03:58
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Only a banker could hear Full Burn and think that was an asset that was viable to be used for loan collateral. "That's the sort of thing the kids today are into!'
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Jun 26, 2017 04:01
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Foo Diddley posted:Well post it already, why do you have to sober up first really hard to copy/format this poo poo at a bar on a tablet
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Jun 26, 2017 04:01
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Foo Diddley posted:Well post it already, why do you have to sober up first Asking the important questions.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:01
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TheAgent posted:really hard to copy/format this poo poo at a bar on a tablet Don't worry about formatting. Just dump it as is.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:02
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Xarbala posted:I'd like to think our own MAGAboys are a better class of Trump supporter, imo I'm a MAGA Canadian, and frequent the_donald. I put about $800 on Trump to win on bet365. Election night was the best. 
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Jun 26, 2017 04:04
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TheAgent posted:it's all going directly into SC. Sq42 doesn't exist anymore Your leak about SQ42 being rolled into the opening portion of SC wrecks both their selling of the two as separate products, and the loan document having SC as a separate entity. I think we can all assume that "the game" in the loan documents probably refers to SQ42, if not both products, collectively. If they do get recombined, that'll be a complete shitshow, both on the consumer side, and financial side. TheAgent posted:so I just got a huge dump from some unknown internet man about how russian mob guys in germany have been using CIG to launder money lol Putin used Star Citizen to get Trump elected. Money way laundered through the SC grey market to pay off fake news outfits and social media astroturfers.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:04
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THEY'RE TURNING THE JPGS GAY
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Jun 26, 2017 04:06
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XK posted:If they do get recombined, that'll be a complete shitshow, both on the consumer side, and financial side. Well that's probably what CIG is doing then.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:07
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Since I stupidly asked to be probated just as this awesome and interesting news came out, this is a little late. And it's going to be boring and long. So skip it if you will. There are two reasons why (generally, lets not talk about monetary arbitrage here, it's just loving stupid to suggest such) financially health corporations take out loans: for leverage and for cash flow normalization. Allow me to explain: First, let's imagine a company of a net worth of $20 million with no debt has a yearly net profit of $2 million. That's a really awesome rate of return! 10% of it's capital in net profit a year. Wow! If it wants to keep giving its shareholders that $2 million in profit each year, what does it need to do to expand? Well, the smart thing to do is borrow money against its assets. This is called "LEVERAGING" the company. Let's say they find a bank willing to loan $10 million with a 5% interest rate. So after the loan, the company has $30 million in assets. Assuming it can make the extra money work as well as the initial $20 million, the company is now making a yearly net profit (not including the loan interest) of $3 million!!!! (still 10% of its capital) After paying the interest on the 5% loan, the company made $2.5 million. That's great!! The bank made money for a good investment and the company made extra net profit with a smart loan (and knowing how to allocate the capital to get the increased rate of return). A company is smart to do this. Second, let's imagine a company that has weird collection rates on its account receivables. You are a company that everyone loves.... but only every other quarter of the year. Your revenue is as follows: $2 million in Jan-Mar, $10 million in Apr-Jun, $2 million in Jul-Sep, $10 million in Oct-Dec. But you have $5 million of expenses every quarter. Taken at years end, you would make $4 million ($24 million in yearly revenue minus $20 million in yearly expenses). But... because you don't receive the bulk of your revenue until certain quarters, you would run out of money to keep your business open until the good times. So what do you do? You get a revolving loan for $5 million! You are behind and lose money some quarters when expenses outweigh revenues, and make it back when the revenues far outweigh the expenses (plus loan expenses). Win-win for you and the bank! Awesome. So... what is the loan that CIG has taken out? Is it in group (1) or group (2)? It is in group (2), but in a really bad way. As mentioned by other commentators previously, this is not an ordinary corporate loan, but a PAYDAY LOAN. CIG must be hard-up for liquidity. What they have done does not fall into group (1) mentioned above, instead, it is the worst type of no. (2) above. CIG is borrowing money against future tax credits. And paying extra money (interest) for the privilege. The only reason a company would do that is if it could not wait for the tax credit because it didn't have enough cash to make to to get to earning that next tax credit. This is similar to the company that is seeking to "smooth out" its revenue stream (no. (2) above). But in the case of the normal company seeking to "smooth out" its income, it has "A REGULAR AND EXPECTED SOURCE OF INCOME." CIG does not have this. CIG is looking to move future income (tax credits) into the present. Why is this bad? Because the tax credits are not ordinarily used as INCOME STREAMS! When a company is reduced to borrowing against tax credits, it is at the end of its life. Tax credits are not something a healthy company bases its income on. CIG is treading water and about to lose muscle control. This is bad, folks. This is the end. CIG, absent a miracle, won't be here next time next year. Get out now, assholes. Run if you can.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:12
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Taintrunner posted:Can CIG/RSI/F42 even hack together some sort of actual game from the assets they have here? I'm just blown away they haven't tried to push out something as the rest of videogames are rapidly leaving them the gently caress behind. Instead it's.... buy our concept ships! Here's a speederbike! I feel like I'm watching a trainwreck in the slowest of motion. They don't have anything. They have art assets in a glorified model viewer. You can no-clip around as a ship and trigger super basic mission scripts. They glued on a ship combat arena, and a slapped together FPS with 2 levels. Plus a racing course. They have nothing but textures, and models. Oh, and a bunch of mocap, and an orchestra sound track.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:13
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MinorInconvenience posted:Since I stupidly asked to be probated just as this awesome and interesting news came out, this is a little late. And it's going to be boring and long. So skip it if you will. Yeah this is a good point. How do they know how much their tax credit will be? Just based on previous years? What if it comes up less than expected? What if the government decides to axe it next year?
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Jun 26, 2017 04:22
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Warhawk109 posted:Yeah this is a good point. How do they know how much their tax credit will be? Just based on previous years? What if it comes up less than expected? What if the government decides to axe it next year?
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Jun 26, 2017 04:27
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Wait, now the russian mob is possibly involved? What next, Roberts gets fitted for some concrete shoes?
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Jun 26, 2017 04:38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ito5ELbyyxs Another sale has gone I still have no game Long wait for me BDSSE How much should I buy? Croberts tell me why Don't you have the dough To make the 'verse go gold? Everyday I sit in my wank pod How did it slip away? Derek tweets into my feed and says That they took out a loan I am always right Funds were pissed away To cover interest rates But they took out a loan I was right again You paid for some art Never doubt the Smart They took out a loan Loan, loooan, why? Looooan... Just the other night I thought I saw they raised One fifty million And still it can't be done I can see delays In progress every day And they still need my cash Dev's forever so slapdash Everyday I sit in mom's basement How did it slip away? Someone posts in r/sc and says That they took out a loan CIG is screwed If they cannot pay They will walk away 'Cause they took out a loan Coutts owns all their stuff Though I bought a Nox It's worth less than some rocks For they took out a loan Answered the call and they bought mocap I sent them to Monaco for free All for free They took out a loan 3 point oh was pushed Until sometime next May I'm pledging every day They took out a loan Wish they'd tell the truth Maxed out all my cards On this big wet fart They took out a loan (they took out a loan) I believed in Chris (I believed in you) Dreams so far away (they're so far away, you and me) Never get to play Cause they took out a loan (I can always buy a shiiiip) I can save the game If I just give some more They may see version 4 They took out a loan. Not a loan. Oh it's not a loan, you are not a loan. Say it again. Oh it's not a loan, you are not a loan! Not a loan! Not a loan! You just partnered with Coutts, Chris For the tax breaks, just the tax breaks Not a loan! Not a loan! CIG! Not a loan! A hedger! A hedger! Just stop being a loan! Just stop being a loan!
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Jun 26, 2017 04:38
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Wow, just getting caught up. I had some experience with loans with a big studio which needed money and also production tax credits. So yes, it's practically normal to get a "production payday loan" using future tax credit reimbursement as collateral. This happens all the time, there are banks and companies that specialize in it. Big game studios do this in subsidized regions [parts of Canada, UK , France for example..] and movie studios do this all the time to fund production. You take a big expensive tentpole movie, divide your production/post production between as many subsidized locations as possible , say spend 60M in Lousiana, Georgia, Florida, Hawaii, Vancouver and London, then get about 28M lined up for a refund/rebate and pay 10% to get that money early to finance the rest of the production. What's not normal is to give up all of everything for it, and also go to some UK bank for it when you have a few banks and companies in the immediate area [Los Angeles] that specialize in it [eg. Entertainment Partners, etc]. I'm really surprised that: A> The SC IP is valued at any significant amount at this point. B> The owners/partners of CIG were not required to be personal guarantors on a loan agreement. My read from this is that all the normal channels are not available for financing. And to go through all of that to secure a few million in a rebate cash advance.. [UK games subsidy is what? 25% these days?] well they must be hard up.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:40
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All the financial analysis aside , let me come at this from a total outsiders perspective Why , would cig with (according to ortwin) healthy cash reserves and lots of money in the accounts. Even need or want to get themselves the tax credits now , instead of waiting till year end when it's due to them What purpose would it serve, again if they have lots of money in the bank, to have a few extra million 6 months before they're due to receive it ? It makes no sense to me , a non lawyer/accountant
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Jun 26, 2017 04:40
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Sappo569 posted:All the financial analysis aside , let me come at this from a total outsiders perspective They're broke. They expect a million shortfall on each month of income versus expenses. $5 million will cover their shortfall for 5 months, long enough to get them through Gamescom and Citizencon.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:47
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Sappo569 posted:All the financial analysis aside , let me come at this from a total outsiders perspective The latest talking point is that it's to avoid the currency exchange since all of the U.K. Office's funding comes direct from its parent company. Which kinda makes sense if CIG were a hedge fund. But it's still an expensive route to take with the interest, especially if it's short term. I don't think they would be doing this unless they were having money issues.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:49
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Sappo569 posted:All the financial analysis aside , let me come at this from a total outsiders perspective Something something brexit depressed pound, except they did none of that
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Jun 26, 2017 04:51
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trucutru posted:All you fudster spreading FUD should be ashamed of yourselves, didn't you hear? they loan ihas been paid already He'll twist information to make Star Citizen look good, and other games look bad if he thinks it helps CIG. The mental gymnastics are enough to give headaches.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:53
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Sappo569 posted:All the financial analysis aside , let me come at this from a total outsiders perspective In general terms, you are getting free money. Will you take less free money if you get it sooner? The answer in film/games subsidies is always yes. So you'll have a situation where a regional government is going to give a rebate/subsidy in the form of a "tax credit" for draw jobs/production work to an area. They can't just write a check for it, so basically you file your taxes with production costs and you'll get a XX% back in the form of a tax refund, guaranteed by that government, in the following year. Once you have your costs/budget pegged, you can sign that loan over to another production/holding company or bank in exchange for a cash advance, say 10%. With that money immediately available you got "free" additional money to finance your project. So if you wanted to make a 40M game/film, but can only line up half of that, you can start subsidy shopping to different regions and figure out ways to make that dollar stretch more. In this particular case, the bank has zero faith in CIG/F42, but they do have absolute faith in getting that refund money from the UK government down the line.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:54
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I hear the ticking of the clock The money's gone the game's not done The cash is getting awful tight To get the build to 3.0 And the coding goes so very slow Only one way out that I know A loan Till now I always got by on my name I never really made anything worthwhile And now I'm reaching for the phone Calling up Coutts for a loan Calling up Coutts for a loan You don't know how long I have wanted To tell my tale of Vanduul fights, oh You don't know how long I have waited To see my ships explode in mid-flight Though the vision is all my own How to code it all is still unknown A loan Till now I always got by on my name I never really made anything worthwhile And now I'm reaching for the phone Calling up Coutts for a loan Calling up Coutts for a loan Calling up Coutts for a loan Calling up Coutts for a loan A loan A loan
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Jun 26, 2017 04:56
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Scruffpuff posted:I hear the ticking of the clock 
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Jun 26, 2017 05:01
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TheAgent posted:I think money of it is real but lol as gently caress Now you're thinking with croberts
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Jun 26, 2017 05:03
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Jun 26, 2017 05:16
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TheAgent posted:so I just got a huge dump from some unknown internet man about how russian mob guys in germany have been using CIG to launder money lol Crazy as it sounds, some kind of money laundering or funny business with or withing CIGs knowledge would explain rando completionist purchases and other anomalies on the tracker. Or maybe people really just love buying pay2win jpegs for 5 years. Virtual Captain fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 05:17
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Uh oh. They're going to have fun at our expense.
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Jun 26, 2017 05:22
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Just wait until these people turn their ire toward CIG.
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Jun 26, 2017 05:23
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They never will. poo poo will go up in flames, and it will still be our fault somehow. http://i.imgur.com/O4m84eV.gifv
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Jun 26, 2017 05:26
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This post kills scam artists.
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Jun 26, 2017 05:32
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Big K of Justice posted:Wow, just getting caught up. i'm gonna take a guess that nobody in the business of making production payday loans in america will lend to a crobbers and ortwin company because they already had a black mark from their ascendancy pictures days and their star citizen fiasco has done them in.
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Jun 26, 2017 05:37
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Ash1138 posted:pro post, thank you Or they've already tapped out there and had to shift to the UK. Only this loan put a big ol "We own loving everything until paid" stamp on the top.
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Jun 26, 2017 05:47
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/r/ShittyKickstarters also joined in the fun... 
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Jun 26, 2017 05:49
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Has anyone estimated the amount of money Chris, Sandi, Lawyerboy, and Erin have stuffed into their pockets from this? 153 Million dollars over 5 years or so in crowdfunding. I think there's been mention of "investments" from some places too and, of course, loans. We should probably include gifts as well. Orgs (and individuals), in the beginning, were trying to outdo each other on expensive booze, meals, jewelry, and crap. I'm almost certain that Sandi and Chris's marriage is just for appearance (or the kids), so their finances are probably separate for this calculation. I'm going to make up a number and say that since January 1, 2013 CIG has fleeced 200,000,000 from idiots. That's 40 MILLION dollars a year. Now I know that the operating costs have fluctuated, a lot. But what's the high side? 2 million a month average for the 5 years? That would leave 80 million dollars laying around somewhere. You know that Chris, Sandi, Lawyerboy, and Erin have their salaries in that 2 million dollars a month operating cost, but what about bonuses? As the board members they could be awarding themselves whatever they want from that 80,000,000$. And the company (companies) are probably paying for their cars/houses/vacations/boats/etc. So, a recap. CIG has taken in 200,000,000 dollars over 5 years. They've spent 120,000,000 dollars in operating expenses. That leaves Chris and co with 80,000,000 dollars (plus whatever their salary is) to keep them warm and comfortable for the rest of their lives even after this all collapses. A lot of you guys are smarter than me and can probably tighten that who formula up. Please do if you know more than me.    Hard at work you guys. No time off. Not even one day. spacetoaster fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 05:51
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Open, honest communication is creating good outcomes for the community. I wonder why there still push back on the idea of disclosing financial records? There were sceptical backers who thought the schedule report and loan disclosure would be disastrous, and that there would endless arguments and backseat demands. But in reality the backers lapped it up, were placated, and it prevents further arguments from starting (since a backer can just refer to CIG's disclosure). Large publicly owned studios have to disclose their financials, and still manage to run a successful operation under financial scrutiny. There is no reason to think CIG is a special case. For the good of the game and community, CIG needs to disclose their financials. If there really is nothing to fear (and all indications so far show that CIG is a financially responsible company), then there is absolutely no argument to withhold it. It will give backers confidence, shut the trolls up and dissuade people from getting refunds. It's a win for everyone involved. For all of the backers reading this thread, please take this message to heart. Tokamak fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 05:53
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CIG mortgaged their backers' dreams and when they go bust Coutts & Co. will hopefully be satisfied enough with $5m in restoration hardware furniture to not file charges for bank fraud on Croberts et. al. Then again if the bank was interested in the furniture, and CIG didn't disclose that Lesnick has sat on some of it, that is also bank fraud.
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Jun 26, 2017 06:13
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Seems the lawyer for the company that just took out a payday loan should not be making official statements that are intentionally misleading or factually incorrect regarding the terms of that loan just to try and calm down PR. The loan documents specifically call it out as not being a partnership yet Ortwin is trying to spin it as such.
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Jun 26, 2017 07:20
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