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Foo Diddley
Oct 29, 2011

Do you party?



ManofManyAliases posted:

They hedged brexit, because the value of that credit may have dissipated by that time.

Lol do you actually believe this, or did someone pay you to say it?

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Thoatse
Feb 29, 2016

Lol said the scorpion, lmao


https://i.imgur.com/tLk11gM.gifv

shrach
Jan 9, 2004

daylight ssssaving time

SomethingJones posted:

This is something I don't understand at all - if they created Foundry to build the game then charged them for the license... where did Foundry get the £2 million from? Did they go into £2 million debt right off the bat to develop a game for the brother of the guy who runs the studio? But then didn't CIG buy Foundry outright further down the line anyway?

Why sell them the license when you are contracting them to build the game that the license covers anyway?

Absolutely none of this makes any sense to me

The IP is actually in the books of CIG UK not Foundry 42 Ltd. Basically, by moving things around it is easier to introduce actual bank loans. Banks would not normally lend a company money to buy shares from the directors or IP from the directors or companies owned by the directors.

This was a summary of the activity of CIG UK specifically that strips out the inter-group transactions:

Sources of funding:
£710k Long Term Loans
£290k Short Term Creditors
£200k Shareholder Investment [1]
£650k Sale of IP to USA company
============
£1.85m Total

Outgoings:
£440k purchase of Foundry 42 Ltd from Erin Roberts and others [2]
£ 50k Admin Expenses
£1.36m IP purchase from USA company/Chris Roberts?
============
£1.85m Total

SomethingJones
Mar 6, 2016

<3


The "hedging Brexit" excuse originated on Reddit btw and it is complete and total bollocks.

They are so reliant on the tax credit every year that they had to take out a loan 6 months before it was due in their account. Anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence can see that. The fact that they took it out in the UK meaning we all got to see it in the accounts implies the company is up to their loving eyes in debt.

Trilobite
Aug 15, 2001


Taintrunner posted:

So wait itís fake booze you can only drink in-game. I thought theyíd do something cool like partner with a local brewer to give their special members a bottle they all crack open and toast when the final game drops or something

Maybe they were going to partner with Nant Whisky for a deal like that, but you know, opportunities like that don't come along often, and rarely last long enough to get to the end of the Star Citizen deathmarch.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

SomethingJones posted:

Economic effects from Brexit won't happen until after a general election in 2020 (according to Cambridge University) and that's IF Brexit happens at all. This had NOTHING to do with Brexit.

Right answer, wrong time. Brexit caused an immediate drop in value of the Cable after the results of the vote that tanked it to around 1.3 from 1.65. They took out the loan with Coutts at around 1.21, and the current value hasn't risen above 1.3 since June 2016.

Secondary effects that LSE and Cambridge are talking about happen during the first wave of companies leaving the UK to retain access to the Single Market, which is the really funny bit, and the hit on the agricultural system, which from a logistics point of view has been *insane* for years.

I'm not taking the bet against the Sterling until after the options run out for Labour/whoever having the bollocks to ask for a second vote.

The Cable is important because of the dollar being a reserve currency, so everything tends to get measured against what you're buying on the open market, like fuel. Brexit happened, costs almost immediately went up, but the real pain is going to happen when those import/export markets suddenly disappear.

But suggesting that Coutts was a hedge against Brexit. drat, that's weak.

SomethingJones posted:

They are so reliant on the tax credit every year that they had to take out a loan 6 months before it was due in their account. Anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence can see that. The fact that they took it out in the UK meaning we all got to see it in the accounts implies the company is up to their loving eyes in debt.

Word.

Hav fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Oct 25, 2017

Blue On Blue
Nov 14, 2012



Lol so one brother gets a chunk of money for the rights to the ip, shouldn't the rights to the ip goto the company he was working for when it was created ?

The other brother sells one of the companies to still another of the nested companies

Don't forget they back paid themselves for the years of work 'creating the ip' that they then sold to the company for profit

Jesus Christ this is so incestuous and has to be illegal somehow

SomethingJones
Mar 6, 2016

<3


shrach posted:

The IP is actually in the books of CIG UK not Foundry 42 Ltd. Basically, by moving things around it is easier to introduce actual bank loans. Banks would not normally lend a company money to buy shares from the directors or IP from the directors or companies owned by the directors.

This was a summary of the activity of CIG UK specifically that strips out the inter-group transactions:

Sources of funding:
£710k Long Term Loans
£290k Short Term Creditors
£200k Shareholder Investment [1]
£650k Sale of IP to USA company
============
£1.85m Total

Outgoings:
£440k purchase of Foundry 42 Ltd from Erin Roberts and others [2]
£ 50k Admin Expenses
£1.36m IP purchase from USA company/Chris Roberts?
============
£1.85m Total

This is nuts.

Ah, so CIG UK paid for the license. CIG UK was created and was immediately sold a license from CIG US or whoever owns the IP. I don't understand why it needs a license, and I don't understand where it gets the money from to buy a license - was CIG UK created to take out a loan to buy the license?

Which one of the seventy gazillion companies are Foundry contracted to?

SomethingJones
Mar 6, 2016

<3


Hav posted:

Right answer, wrong time. Brexit caused an immediate drop in value of the Cable after the results of the vote that tanked it to around 1.3 from 1.65. They took out the loan with Coutts at around 1.21, and the current value hasn't risen above 1.3 since June 2016.

Secondary effects that LSE and Cambridge are talking about happen during the first wave of companies leaving the UK to retain access to the Single Market, which is the really funny bit, and the hit on the agricultural system, which from a logistics point of view has been *insane* for years.

I'm not taking the bet against the Sterling until after the options run out for Labour/whoever having the bollocks to ask for a second vote.

The Cable is important because of the dollar being a reserve currency, so everything tends to get measured against what you're buying on the open market, like fuel. Brexit happened, costs almost immediately went up, but the real pain is going to happen when those import/export markets suddenly disappear.

But suggesting that Coutts was a hedge against Brexit. drat, that's weak.


Word.

This is the good poo poo right here. The Brexit vote was on the 23rd, I couldn't be arsed looking up the date of the Coutts loan but I wondered for a second if CIG had some amazing insight into how the vote would turn out and decided to take out a loan before the value of the pound dropped, but then that makes no sense either because they still have to pay interest on the loving loan MoMA you moron.

SomethingJones
Mar 6, 2016

<3


Blue On Blue posted:

Lol so one brother gets a chunk of money for the rights to the ip, shouldn't the rights to the ip goto the company he was working for when it was created ?

The other brother sells one of the companies to still another of the nested companies

Don't forget they back paid themselves for the years of work 'creating the ip' that they then sold to the company for profit

Jesus Christ this is so incestuous and has to be illegal somehow

It isn't actually known (at least I don't think it is) where the money for the license went. It just sort of, well you know, it just sort of went *POOF* and it came from a company in the UK that just sort of like, well it just sort of appeared one day and gently caress knows where it got the 2 million from

Incestuous

The Titanic
Sep 15, 2016

Unsinkable



Yeah, that too. Though Andromeda was pretty disappointing, Mass Effect as a franchise is still very relevant today.

Rugganovich
Apr 29, 2017


Mr.Tophat posted:

When I think of space games, I think of shuffling ever so slightly closer at regular intervals to people waiting for buses and placing bets on how many shuffles (I call them micro-aggressions) I can make before they shuffle away or get mad at me

I used to like to spice things up at bus stops. I'd pull out my handgun and randomly choose another commuter to re-enact the bullet dance scene from Pale Rider until the police would turn up and spoil things by yelling out "Put the gun down and step away" and "Put your hands in the air and turn around"
Spontaneous role playing is a dying art, because of all this political correctness. Society really has gone to hell in a hand-basket.

Golli
Jan 5, 2013



SomethingJones posted:

It isn't actually known (at least I don't think it is) where the money for the license went. It just sort of, well you know, it just sort of went *POOF* and it came from a company in the UK that just sort of like, well it just sort of appeared one day and gently caress knows where it got the 2 million from

Incestuous

This is called Hollywood accounting, which happens to be something Ortwin seems to be skilled in. Move the money around to make sure that only the right people get to keep it.

shrach
Jan 9, 2004

daylight ssssaving time

SomethingJones posted:

This is nuts.

Ah, so CIG UK paid for the license. CIG UK was created and was immediately sold a license from CIG US or whoever owns the IP. I don't understand why it needs a license, and I don't understand where it gets the money from to buy a license - was CIG UK created to take out a loan to buy the license?

Which one of the seventy gazillion companies are Foundry contracted to?

Ordinarily IP is not something you want in your accounts. An asset on your balance sheet is not an expense in your profit and loss account that you can reduce your income with. It just sits on your balance sheet and I'm not going to look at the tax allowances allowed, I suspect it's nothing in this situation.

I'm not sure how to explain this without sending people to sleep but by moving the IP between companies it will actually crystallise the amounts and create chargeable events. Assume things are at cost. One of the US companies could have made a profit but has also spent £1.35m on legal fees, writing, editors for a Squadron 42 script. It can't claim that £1.35m as an expense because it is an IP asset. It can sell this asset to the UK for £1.35m, so now they can crystallise those £1.35m in costs. The income and expenditure match for no net effect. They then spend £650k buying the rights for US distribution and well, a US accountant will have to handle that one but there's probably some way to get relief on that in the US.

Meanwhile the UK has no real sales, just money from America. So it's easy to adjust the money from America such that the £650k sale of the IP in the UK is offset against expenses.

The Titanic
Sep 15, 2016

Unsinkable



Heh. These are getting really dumb.

I remember the last one that looked like a bottle of perfume, and turned out to be a bottle of brandy or something, seemed very awesome because it looked like CIG was going to give away some cool in-theme mercy to its peeps.

I was going to be impressed!

Then it turned out to just be some dumb as poo poo jpeg or dlc model, and it immediately became trite.

This looks like more of the same. Itís like if Bethesda thanked all of its players by opening up a pay system for user mods giving you an Alto Wine (sp?) if you bought Skyrim 20 times at full $59.99 price point.

ďThis wine, why, this is your wine, dovakin!Ē The courier says as he hands it to you.

ManofManyAliases
Mar 21, 2016
ToastOfManySmarts


Can't post for 3 hours!


SomethingJones posted:

This is the good poo poo right here. The Brexit vote was on the 23rd, I couldn't be arsed looking up the date of the Coutts loan but I wondered for a second if CIG had some amazing insight into how the vote would turn out and decided to take out a loan before the value of the pound dropped, but then that makes no sense either because they still have to pay interest on the loving loan MoMA you moron.

A few hundred grand? You guys are so loving dense to think that CIG is that blatantly in the red in a country that highly values consumer protection. By UK law, this type of loan couldn't even be granted if CIG weren't solvent for at least one year (due to the floating charge).

Drunk Theory
Aug 20, 2016




Oven Wrangler

The Titanic posted:

Heh. These are getting really dumb.

I remember the last one that looked like a bottle of perfume, and turned out to be a bottle of brandy or something, seemed very awesome because it looked like CIG was going to give away some cool in-theme mercy to its peeps.

I was going to be impressed!

Then it turned out to just be some dumb as poo poo jpeg or dlc model, and it immediately became trite.

This looks like more of the same. Itís like if Bethesda thanked all of its players by opening up a pay system for user mods giving you an Alto Wine (sp?) if you bought Skyrim 20 times at full $59.99 price point.

ďThis wine, why, this is your wine, dovakin!Ē The courier says as he hands it to you.

If that was the only perk I'd agree with you. But how can you put value on a "special preview" of the new ship to buy? Hell, they might even give the black card backers an 100$ discount!!!

Rugganovich
Apr 29, 2017


MinorInconvenience posted:

... it's why all smart people loving hate lawyers.

I hate lawyers, therefore..............

SomethingJones
Mar 6, 2016

<3


shrach posted:

Ordinarily IP is not something you want in your accounts. An asset on your balance sheet is not an expense in your profit and loss account that you can reduce your income with. It just sits on your balance sheet and I'm not going to look at the tax allowances allowed, I suspect it's nothing in this situation.

I'm not sure how to explain this without sending people to sleep but by moving the IP between companies it will actually crystallise the amounts and create chargeable events. Assume things are at cost. One of the US companies could have made a profit but has also spent £1.35m on legal fees, writing, editors for a Squadron 42 script. It can't claim that £1.35m as an expense because it is an IP asset. It can sell this asset to the UK for £1.35m, so now they can crystallise those £1.35m in costs. The income and expenditure match for no net effect. They then spend £650k buying the rights for US distribution and well, a US accountant will have to handle that one but there's probably some way to get relief on that in the US.

Meanwhile the UK has no real sales, just money from America. So it's easy to adjust the money from America such that the £650k sale of the IP in the UK is offset against expenses.

Riiight. So they sell it so that it isn't just sitting on the books. That answers my question.

Blue On Blue
Nov 14, 2012



SomethingJones posted:

It isn't actually known (at least I don't think it is) where the money for the license went. It just sort of, well you know, it just sort of went *POOF* and it came from a company in the UK that just sort of like, well it just sort of appeared one day and gently caress knows where it got the 2 million from

Incestuous

Let me put it this way

IF when things finally crash and burn , crobberts and his confidants don't end up with very fat bank accounts over all these years of creative accounting they really are stupid as a bag of dirt

I'm not saying they should be rich , certainly not when it's ill gotten money couched on the hopes and dreams of desperate nerds being lied to for over 6 years

What im saying is if they are still broke after all the whales are milked and the money dried up because it was all spent on 'developement' well then Chris is an incredible imbicle and incompetent both at the same time

I bet at least Ben Will make some money off this by selling the urinal cakes used in the LA office to Clifford aka Miku .... piece by piece

Rugganovich
Apr 29, 2017


hot balls man no homo posted:

nothing says big spender quite like a fake tophat and monocle along with a real tee shirt with a space ship on it.

Except the real t-shirt says on the front "I spent >$1000 on a computer game"
On the back it says "KICK ME"

SomethingJones
Mar 6, 2016

<3


ManofManyAliases posted:

A few hundred grand? You guys are so loving dense to think that CIG is that blatantly in the red in a country that highly values consumer protection. By UK law, this type of loan couldn't even be granted if CIG weren't solvent for at least one year (due to the floating charge).

You don't need to be in the red at the bank to be up to your loving neck in debt MoMA. You take out a loan 6 months ahead of a tax credit so that you DON'T go into the red and gently caress yourself and your company.

Variable 5
Apr 17, 2007
random

Grimey Drawer

Blue On Blue posted:

this is so incestuous and has to be illegal somehow

Yeah, no. This happens all the time. You just donít hear about it because those other times didnít include a company thatís crowdfunded $150m and produced almost nothing of note.


The last company I worked for was owned by one guy that had nineteen separate corporate entities encompassing two unrelated industries. His comptroller and CFO basically told me that generating business between the entities looked good on a balance sheet for the mostly hands-off owner, so they took every opportunity they could to generate more companies that never actually did anything. Last I heard, they started an IT consultancy that was responsible only for the other entities but billed them like it was completely separate so they could brag about it generating x millions in revenue its first year.

big nipples big life
May 12, 2014




this is the best post this thread has ever had

SomethingJones
Mar 6, 2016

<3


Blue On Blue posted:

IF when things finally crash and burn , crobberts and his confidants don't end up with very fat bank accounts over all these years of creative accounting they really are stupid as a bag of dirt

They'll each (the big 3) have a million in the bank by now having produced absolutely and precisely gently caress all and having contributed nothing whatsoever to gaming as an industry, gaming as a hobby or gaming as a community.

SomethingJones
Mar 6, 2016

<3


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcTPqiIAWCA

A Neurotic Corncob
Nov 12, 2016

A light wind swept over the corn, and all nature laughed in the sunshine.


David Cronenberg presents Alpha 3.0

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x666ggn

TheAgent
Feb 16, 2002

The call is coming from inside Dr. House

Grimey Drawer

ManofManyAliases posted:

A few hundred grand? You guys are so loving dense to think that CIG is that blatantly in the red in a country that highly values consumer protection. By UK law, this type of loan couldn't even be granted if CIG weren't solvent for at least one year (due to the floating charge).
Things are falling apart and have been since the middle of last year. I've had six people ask me to go on record or reveal sources lately (I've declined). I'm sure they've talked to Bootcha and Beer and outside contractors and current/former employees and god knows who else.

I know you'd like to imagine that somehow, Chris and Sandi and Ben and Jared and Tony and Erin are really, really nice people, who care about the backers that gave them millions.

Here's the thing, and I'm trying not to be mean, just as real as possible: they don't give a gently caress about anything but money. The product that you'll get delivered in 3 weeks is an absolute travesty and that's going to be it. They'll continue the Live support for the game, promising additional content and increased player counts, but this is it; 3.0, in the state at which is arrives, is going to be Star Citizen. That's it.

When that happens, when the dreams are no longer just accessible in the mind but available to be played on the keyboard, that's when things are going to go into an absolute loving frenzy. Chris Roberts and everyone else in his little tower understand this. They 100% understand.

I'm sorry your dream space game is going to be an absolutely janky piece of poo poo with almost no content but what the players create for themselves. I really am. As a backer, I'd liked to have played a fun PC space game, too.

But this is it. This is what you're going to get. And it's just, it's just awful. It's really, really loving bad.

Mr.Tophat
Apr 7, 2007

You clearly don't understand joke development :justpost:

Rugganovich posted:

I used to like to spice things up at bus stops. I'd pull out my handgun and randomly choose another commuter to re-enact the bullet dance scene from Pale Rider until the police would turn up and spoil things by yelling out "Put the gun down and step away" and "Put your hands in the air and turn around"
Spontaneous role playing is a dying art, because of all this political correctness. Society really has gone to hell in a hand-basket.

Sage wisdom

Drunk Theory
Aug 20, 2016




Oven Wrangler


Ha ha ha. Holy poo poo. That's kinda creepy.

Foo Diddley
Oct 29, 2011

Do you party?






No one will ever figure out that this is actually a Star Citizen video, or who uploaded it

SpaceCurtisLeMay
Sep 30, 2016

We're at war with Goons. We were attacked by Goons. Do you want to kill Goons, or would you rather have Citizens killed?


Rad Russian posted:

The fact that Robert Space Industries and Roberts Space Industries are both registered companies in this money shifting scam should set off alarm bells too. Licensing their own IP to themselves is just the tip of the iceberg.

However whenever brought up, Shitizens believe it's totally normal for a studio working on their first game have 17+ LLCs and corporations registered. This whole saga is just laughable how pathetic it is. Instead it is Frontier, the makers of Elite, who are ruining PC gaming with their cash grabbing! I mean, come on, they have 3 different large games in the works now and still only have Frontier Developments plc and Frontier Developments Inc. registered as their corporate entities. Totally pathetic way to run a business.

17+ is somewhat odd for a software company. In other industries it is common to have a company that holds the IP, such as trademarks, and then licenses those out to the corporate business and franchisees. If you ever see a fast food restaurant commercial it will say something like: Arby's IP Holders, Inc. or Subway IP, LLC. Sometimes this happens because when a family run chain gets taken over as part of the deal the family gets to keep the IP/namesake and licenses that out as a way for the family to continue earning on what they founded.

Strangler 42
Jan 8, 2007

SHAVE IT ALL OFF
ALL OF IT


ManofManyAliases posted:

think that CIG is that blatantly in the red

Yes. Its' been obvious for a while.

shrach
Jan 9, 2004

daylight ssssaving time

Even the simplest concept like turnover isn't straight forward for the UK group. The parent company, Cloud Imperium Games UK Ltd and Foundry 42 Ltd, basically have zero turnover. It gets zeroed out in the group accounts. The only company that has actual "turnover" is Roberts Space Industries International Ltd. The one with the £1 balance sheet that is really a non-trading company.

But even they are uncomfortable with this being turnover. It's a non-trading company and the accounts make different references to it. This behaviour (calling your headline turnover, "costs recharged in the period") is not in any way standard. I've never even heard of this term before in an actual accountancy setting. It's strange but another first for CIG I guess.

big nipples big life
May 12, 2014



Even the most conservative burn rate estimates have them operating in the red and just lol if you think they are operating anywhere near the conservative estimates.

The Titanic
Sep 15, 2016

Unsinkable


Mr.Tophat posted:

To be clear I have never married anyone, except this thread

Derek won't keep us apart anymore

Does this mean I can demand you make more money so we can buy more booze jpegs?

Blue On Blue
Nov 14, 2012



Variable 5 posted:

Yeah, no. This happens all the time. You just don’t hear about it because those other times didn’t include a company that’s crowdfunded $150m and produced almost nothing of note.


The last company I worked for was owned by one guy that had nineteen separate corporate entities encompassing two unrelated industries. His comptroller and CFO basically told me that generating business between the entities looked good on a balance sheet for the mostly hands-off owner, so they took every opportunity they could to generate more companies that never actually did anything. Last I heard, they started an IT consultancy that was responsible only for the other entities but billed them like it was completely separate so they could brag about it generating x millions in revenue its first year.

Oh sure I understand it to a point

The company I work for has the same thing going to a smaller degree

But cig is a totally different beast in that they've produced nothing of note for any of the companies , but they're selling and buying from each other it's going out of style

The massive pay days to the executive team should be a serious red flag warning bit they somehow keep trucking along making 20 or 30k a day

- theagent you should have your sources blow the funding chart wide open , out of all the unbelievable poo poo going on the funding chart is the stinkiest

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer


AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/RobertsSpaceInd/status/923310950752702470

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SomethingJones
Mar 6, 2016

<3


TheAgent posted:

...things are going to go into an absolute loving frenzy. Chris Roberts and everyone else in his little tower understand this. They 100% understand.

Having followed this thing fanatically for so long, taken a long break and coming back to it, I have to say that honestly that's exactly what it looks like. There is nothing that CIG have produced that tells me anything to the contrary. It looks and smells completely hosed, devs say it's hosed and I've done the devil's advocate thing with folks who live and breathe code and they all say it's hosed - so there is no way that Chris and co don't know this and don't know what this means.

Have you heard anything at all about Squadron 42, I had a PM elsewhere a month or so ago from like a 4th hand source saying that it was essentially canned

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