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Blast of Confetti
Apr 21, 2008

Wave your hands in the air!


Not going to write a big thing on this since I'm too busy playing it, but it's basically a mashup of Baldur's Gate and Metal Gear Solid. Game was recommended out of nowhere to me on Steam and so far it's pretty great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkSoSFn_or4

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John Charity Spring
Nov 3, 2009

ACTIVATE THE QUEEN


Most accurate description of it is that it's a modern take on Commandos 2 or Desperados, really. Mechanically it's very similar. But yeah, I've played one mission so far and I'm very impressed.

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


Yeah, it's a fantastic game.

I got the demo due to a extremely good review on rockpapershotgun.com and it got me hooked so I ended up buying the game the day it came out (yesterday). I'm not regretting anything, it's a lot of fun.

lonter
Oct 12, 2012



Mashup of Baldurs Gate and Metal Gear Solid, huh.. This is Commandos in Japan and it owns

ParanoidInc
Apr 27, 2013

You dun scuffed me for the last time you no-good Zayn boy!


Fun Shoe

Walh Hara posted:

Yeah, it's a fantastic game.

I got the demo due to a extremely good review on rockpapershotgun.com and it got me hooked so I ended up buying the game the day it came out (yesterday). I'm not regretting anything, it's a lot of fun.

sameeeee

makes me want to go back and check out those commandos games since I'd never heard of them before this

Unlucky7
Jul 11, 2006

Don't worry my friends. I will be your shield.

I am part way through the first mission in the demo and I am really digging it.

One thing I really like is that they though to put up a timer that displays the time since your last save, quick or manual. It is a real good feature to the people who aren't trained to quicksave every X minutes without taking anything away from the (weird) people who like that sort of thing in the first place, and you can turn it off if you don't want it.

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



I'm through the first 3 levels so far and man is this game loving good. Looks like mission 4 will finally let you get a hold of the last two main characters (not counting briefly using Takuma in stage 1 anyway). I really like the character dynamics with each other, both mechanically and in terms of their unique dialog and such.

I guess there are some extra characters beyond those too, much like how Commandos 2 had the dog and the shipwrecked crazy man.


Also huge ups for the game actually keeping your progress from the demo.

Autonomous Monster
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider



I am loving loving this game. I was a massive fan of Commandos back in the day, and this is precisely a reconstruction of that series with modern design sensibilities and a Japanese reskin. It's actually so similar to Commandos 2 mechanically that I'm thinking of it less and less of a thing in its own right and more and more as a sequel to that game. Right down to watching green cones sweep back and forth and analysing patrol route timings for half an hour before your cunning scheme is unceremoniously derailed by that one rear end in a top hat you didn't spot because of an awkward camera angle

All the little details they've polished up are great. The interface is fluid, intuitive and highly readable (and doesn't ask you to nail three pages of hotkeys to the inside of your skull). All of the characters feel useful and meaningfully differentiated. I love the fact that there's almost always some way to use the environment to kill your enemies- and I love the fact that doing so doesn't trigger alarms, it transforms it from a gimmick into a core element of strategy. Verticality is used very well to layer depth into spaces- which is fairly impressive given it's a top-down game. The badge system seems like a great replacement for hunting through containers for bonus books. Enemies actually notice when their partners are missing, and will start hunting for them.

There are a couple of things I don't like about it, though. The levels don't feel quite as complex or as dense as those in previous games, at least not the ones I've seen so far- I'm only halfway through mission 4. Osaka I'll give a pass because it's the tutorial mission (and a fairly good one by those criteria), but Nakasendou and Mount Tsuru both feel a lot more linear than was really necessary or desirable. The Thieves of Imai was definitely my favourite of these four, and I think probably the standard the game should be aiming for? A wide, open plan environment, lots of criss-crossing, multi-level routes, multiple ways to approach every objective etc. It still doesn't stack up against something like "Das Boot, Silent Killers", though.

I said before that all the characters feel useful, and while that's true, there is one that I'm starting to feel a little down on- Mugen. The problem here is mobility. Originally, I thought Hayato's ability to scale ivy, hookshot up walls and just generally scurry about the place like a hyperactive rodent was going to be his shtick. A little further into the game, it's become obvious that it's actually the reverse- everyone gets to do that poo poo by default, and Mugen's inability to do so is a special restriction on him. The first problem with this is that, as I said, the verticality of the levels adds a great deal of depth to the environments, and Mugen can't interact with any of that- he is, essentially, stuck in a different and less interesting game than everyone else (Takuma aside; I don't know how agile he is, but as a sniper I imagine it won't matter quite so much for him). The second problem is, while Mugen has a very impressive suite of offensive abilities, most of the difficulty in taking down an enemy lies into getting you and him into the right place at the right time. This is much, much easier for the non-Mugen characters. A lot of the time, by the time I've cleared a path for Mugen to move up, there's no one left for him to use those abilities on. Or, it's simply easier and just plain more fun to take care of enemies with someone else. It wouldn't be quite so bad if hyper-mobility was the province of just one character, but when it's the norm, Mugen starts to feel like baggage.

While I'm generally on board with the ways Mimimi have streamlined the design, one thing I don't really like is the abundance of body dump sites. You're rarely more than ten seconds away from some sort of bush or well or similar, that you can just chuck a corpse into and have it magically disappear, no matter where you are in a mission. This trivialises the "cleanup" portion of the approach-isolate-neutralise-cleanup problem. I'll admit that it was never a particularly interesting part of it, but it didn't have to be. We have enemies that search for missing friends now- what if they could, potentially, stumble over corpses in bushes, and you had to account for that? I think there's a whole dimension there that's just been factored out.

The division of enemies into regular/straw hat/samurai is interesting... but ultimately I think a detriment to the game. The problem is the way they're differentiated- the higher tiers are just plain immune to most of your arsenal, and samurai can only be dealt with in very specific ways. While this does successfully differentiate them- you can't approach a problem involving straw hats in the same way one with just regulars- does so by robbing you of options. You can't approach a straw hat the same way you would a regular because a whole bunch of tactics just don't work on straw hats- and they're usually the most interesting tactics, too. The whole core of the game is being giving a toolbox and a problem, and using the former to circumvent the latter in whatever way you choose. Anything that funnels you into approaching a problem in a small number of very specific ways cuts directly against that.

Finally, shadow mode is something I don't think is wowing me as much as it should. It's a solid innovation of the interface, but most of the time if there's a puzzle I'm having a hard time with, it's more about precisely timing the actions of one character than coordinating actions across multiple characters. Or, if it is, the problem is issuing a sequence of orders to multiple characters in quick succession- I think shadow mode would be a lot more useful if you could queue multiple actions for a character. This might just be a problem with my playstyle, or it's just that the early missions aren't stretching me in that particular way.

Regardless, 9/10 GOTY give me a dozen more games like this pls.

ParanoidInc posted:

sameeeee

makes me want to go back and check out those commandos games since I'd never heard of them before this

Commandos, especially Commandos 2, is great. The interface is janky as gently caress but it's cheap as chips right now so dive on in and learn to love hotkeys.

Dr. Video Games 0156
Jan 1, 2005
romantic comedy wahhhh

yeah this game is really good, if you are reading this thread you should buy this game

I'm like 5 or 6 missions in and I can't wait to do the rest

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



FWIW I really like Mugen a lot, especially his ability to carry two bodies while running. Sake bottle is real nice too and a bit better than the bird call overall since you can direct people to places you can't reach, and the AoE on birdcall can actually make it difficult to send one specific person to one specific place sometimes. Also, throwing objects to kill people with him doesn't raise alarms, which is handy.

Do agree about the movement though, it actually feels like they made the other characters a little too mobile, and a little too general purpose almost. Roles felt a lot more restrictive in Commandos 2, but I think part of the reason they could do that was because C2 just had so many more mechanics and specific things going on.

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


Autonomous Monster posted:

I am loving loving this game.
(...)
There are a couple of things I don't like about it, though.
(...)

Yeah, 9/10 score is fair .

Some thoughts I had while reading your post:
- There are certainly plenty of levels that are very complex and dense, but moreso in the later levels and less so in the first ones. I haven't finished all missions yet either, but there certainly have been some that I considered very complex and intricate. The challenges often show that there are a lot more possibilities than you'd expect as well.
- Mugen can throw enemy corpses to kill other enemies. I do not know if it counts as a natural death, but it does show he's pretty awesome. Either way, Mugen (and Takuma) not having as good mobility is a central part of several challenges.
- There are missions with almost no dump sites, so don't worry too much about that.
- I actually thought the way the three type of enemies work together is one of the best parts of the game. I really doubt there are (m)any places where there's only one option possible. You have to realize that sometimes it's okay to trigger the alarm and that you can often fight your way through if you prepared well, picked a good spot and are not afraid of using Mugen. So although there might not be many ways to get around a group with straw hats, you don't always have to. Plus, if you count the reinforcement guards there are much more guards than straw hats/samuarai and the game would be far too easy without enemies that are immune to distractions.
- shadow mode does get more useful later on.

If I had to add some criticism of my own, it'd be that the story does not always make sense.

marshmallow creep
Dec 10, 2008

I've been sitting here for 5 mins trying to think of a joke to make but I just realised the animators of Mass Effect already did it for me


I never played the Commandos or Desperados games. If my frame of reference is stuff like Metal Gear Solid and Baldur's Gate, how does this game differ and how is it good?

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



Walh Hara posted:

- Mugen can throw enemy corpses to kill other enemies. I do not know if it counts as a natural death, but it does show he's pretty awesome. Either way, Mugen (and Takuma) not having as good mobility is a central part of several challenges.

Ahhhh, I didn't even know about this one, that's great.

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



marshmallow creep posted:

I never played the Commandos or Desperados games. If my frame of reference is stuff like Metal Gear Solid and Baldur's Gate, how does this game differ and how is it good?

If you've played MGS1, think about how the radar and alarm systems works in that game, that's pretty much it though. It's not really anything like Baldur's Gate at all except being a top-down perspective and controlling a team of up to 6 guys at once.

Basically imagine a top down stealth-action game where you control a team of characters with unique abilities that have to work together to sneak through enemy bases and complete objectives. You have a variety of different distraction tools and ways to kill people, and a lot of the fun is figuring out how to use the characters you are given to get past tricky situations. It's got a lot of puzzle-game aspects in that regard.

Or just play the demo and see for yourself.

alecm
Aug 20, 2004

Lorraine, I'm your density. I mean . . . your destiny.

I've just played the demo, but the instead of Baldur's Gate the mechanics remind me a lot more of Dawn of War II's single-player stuff. Both games ask you to control multiple, functionally unique units to coordinate to accomplish discrete tasks. The pace feels slower and more puzzle-like but the core Unlike DoW, there is no loot or XP growth, though the gameplay still feels satisfying without that meta-layer.

alecm fucked around with this message at Dec 9, 2016 around 02:03

Snapes N Snapes
Sep 6, 2010



Blast of Confetti posted:

Baldur's Gate and Metal Gear Solid.

hahahaha nope

Dante18907
Aug 31, 2009

Devilbro giveth and Devilbro taketh away


Love love love this game. Played the demo and insta-bought this when it went on sale. Having a blast with it so far. So many little things make it so much easier. I love being able to queue up an order to pick a guard up in the middle of the kill animation and they seamlessly move into having him picked up. This has saved my rear end so many times where I was a microsecond off being caught but because I didn't have to wait for the kill animation to finish and then start the pick up animation I made it. Lovely.

I really love the last save timer, its an excellent reminder for me especially since I ALWAYS forget to save and get real mad when I have to repeat content. I'm only up to Imai at the moment but I dig the level design, footprints are a nice wrinkle/tool to add that feels really cool to have to circumvent/utilise. Having mad fun using a combination of abilities like luring dudes onto Yuki's trap with Mugen's Sake Bottle. I love that guys will look for their missing comrades and I love having to work around the civilians. I had a blast when I realised that knockout was temporary and an angry civilian hosed everything up for me and I was scrambling to fix it without killing the poor bastard. 9/10 so far, would and have recommended this game to my friends. Really hope it sells well for them I would LOVE to see more of this style of game from these guys.

spider wisdom
Nov 4, 2011

og data bandit


So many hours spent puzzling over stages in Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines. It taught me that patience and tactical thinking could be things in video games, and probably single-handedly ignited my delight for strategy games. It was so pretty, too...ST has that unshakeable Unity flavor (trees!) that I'm not 100% digging, but it's still looking good.

I'm a bit wary of this thanks to Autonomous' post, but I literally whispered "whoaaa" at the shadow mode gimmick.

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



Shadow Mode hasn't been useful that often for me but it's nice to have when you want it. You also don't have to trigger all of them at the same time, you can just set them up and trigger them manually if you want to control the timing specifically.

Dr. Video Games 0156
Jan 1, 2005
romantic comedy wahhhh

I agree I haven't gotten a lot of use out of shadow mode. One of the problems I have with using it is that because the game is real-time you often have to either:
- move your guys into the right position for a simultaneous execution, and then try to issue all the commands under a time limit before a patrol gets back
- try to issue commands from a safe spot and then execute them manually like the post above me said in the correct timing

Both are clunkier than I wish they were and I feel like the idea behind shadow mode would work better in a turn based game like invisible inc or something, where the real time pressure isn't there and you can calculate this simultaneous plan in your head with all the time in the world

but the game still owns bones. I just did my first mission with 4 characters and it was super fun and I have to go to bed but I want to keep playing and it's a rare game that makes me feel like that these days

Snidesworth
Dec 31, 2007


I've just reached the first mission set at night and played about 10 minutes. It's a lovely indulgence after the end of the previous mission, though that did teach me that sometimes it's okay to go loud. Also that the master/apprentice relationship is one of throwing bodies off balconies and having someone tidy them away for you.

I'm enjoying the banter between all the characters too. The voice acting isn't always great, but it's good enough and there's some nice moments, especially when someone sees another character's ability for the first time.

lonter
Oct 12, 2012



I wish they had included better ability cancelling with right click. There are certain animations you just can't cancel, like picking up corpses and the trap, which has gotten me to reload more than anything else I think. In Commandos you could instacancel anything with right click.

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


In later maps shadow mode is compulsory every once in a while as there are a lot of situations where you need to take out multiple enemies at once in order to prevent.

That said, does anyone have tips for Sunpu Castle (mission nr 13)? Especially the very first part is extremely difficult. I tried going loud, but the extra soldiers kept coming.

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


Walh Hara posted:

That said, does anyone have tips for Sunpu Castle (mission nr 13)?

Nevermind, finally managed. Took me two hours, but I got through without raising the alarm.

Dr. Video Games 0156
Jan 1, 2005
romantic comedy wahhhh

I just got to Sunpu Castle and holy crap

The opening of this mission is either insane or I'm a huge idiot

It took me like an hour just to get Takuma over to the rest of the group with all the overlapping straw hat/samurai vision cones

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


Dr. Video Games 0156 posted:

I just got to Sunpu Castle and holy crap

The opening of this mission is either insane or I'm a huge idiot

It took me like an hour just to get Takuma over to the rest of the group with all the overlapping straw hat/samurai vision cones

Yes, it is insane. Now I'm looking at the challenges and I really can't understand how you could ever complete that mission without killing anyone, but apparently it is possible according to the devs. I'd love to see that. Even the challenge not to use Aiko's skills seems impossible to me as pretty much every other kill at the start section was done in shadow mode with her sneezing powder distracting somebody else.

The various speedrun challenges seem ridiculous as well at times.

Dr. Video Games 0156
Jan 1, 2005
romantic comedy wahhhh

I only used sneezing powder once, I think I probably could have found a way around that one usage

I'll put it in spoilers just in case but here's some hints/ideas/approaches for the beginning of that mission, in particular I guess if you want the challenge to not use Aiko's skills


You should be able to clear out the side with Hayato and Takuma just using kuma to lure enemies to a blind spot and then kill them. The most complicated thing you have to do there is a close range shuriken + stab to kill two dudes at roughly the same time.
You can't really get past the straw hat guy that the samurai is looking at in any way that I could find, so instead Hayato can then dive in the water and swim over to the side with Yuki and Aiko to help out there and eventually come back around.

All three of those characters (start with Yuki) can run past the initial straw men + guards + civilians to the shed behind the samurai which is completely protected and use the standard flute + trap combo to kill anybody that's lurable. The two strawmen at the base of the first tower are some of the last enemies that are killable without abusing sneezing powder though because of the interlocking vision cones with the samurai across the way.

Once you've gotten yourself some extra room to work with you can head up past the shed and take out the guards up that way. (The 3 guard patrol is the only place I needed shadow mode with a complicated shuriken/pounce off the rooftop/trap play with all 3 ninja characters). You can ignore the guys in the gun range for a bit.

The samurai closest to the gun range and the straw man on the lower level (close to Hayato & Takuma's starting position) are basically staring at each other so this was the one place I used sneezing powder to avoid an alert. However, I'd wait on it because you can kill the other samurai when he's at the end of his patrol route behind the boxes with the first samurai still up. Shoot him from the rooftop, hop off, take him out. Watch out for the straw hat men across the way assuming they're still up - one of them can be looking this way but doesn't stare at it constantly. Once that samurai is out you can take out the aforementioned samurai closer to the gun range + straw hat man looking at him - sneezing powder works but looping somebody back around or using Takuma would probably work too, and then you can safely kill the straw hat men at the base of the tower that have been up this whole time.

Based on the ability to run all the way behind the shed with everybody alive and without alerting anybody and using that as a primary staging area I can kind of imagine a way to do the mission without killing anybody. You could use nonlethal knockouts in situations where you absolutely just CAN'T run by, but since it takes time for enemies to detect you, you have more leeway than you might think you do with running through their vision cones and then dropping to a crouch at the last second.

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


I'm not sure if spoilers are necessary, but as a precaution:

Ah, I assumed I had to kill both straw men at the left in order to KO the moving samurai. Since the straw men on the ground keeps watch over one of them I used sneezing powder there as well. Otherwise my tactic seems pretty similar to yours, just with more shadow time:
- twice killing a straw men while using sneezing powder (in retrospect I only used sneezing powder three times at the beginning, and then again a few times in the garden. So I admit that probably could have been avoided)
- twice to kill a samurai.
- to kill the group of three patrolling at the same time.
- to kill the three in the shooting range at the same time.

With regards to doing it without killing anyone: the main difficulty I see is getting Takuma past the straw men on the ground all the way up the ramp. There is only one path and there are so many people watching it. Maybe it was not really necessary to kill everybody like I did to get Takuma through, but not killing anyone with rifle/trap/shuriken/pistol seems really tough.

ParanoidInc
Apr 27, 2013

You dun scuffed me for the last time you no-good Zayn boy!


Fun Shoe

Just beat this, took me 16 hours for the first playthrough, really happy that there's never a dip in quality or obnoxious mission pretty much the entire way through. I can't think of a single mission that I hated and the worst I can say about any of them was that they weren't super interesting but pretty much every single one had something that made it unique and fun. This is honestly tied for GOTY with Dishonored 2 for me and I'm going to start up a hard mode run next time I get free time. The level of polish for a game that seems to be relatively low-budget and has run under the radar like this is really amazing to me, just the amount of voice lines for unique situations, like in the end mission with the different variations on noboru's death is impressive and the encounter design is just excellent in every way. Even when I had gotten a hang of the abilities given to the player and the ideas behind the design they always managed to throw something in that made me sit down and think about ways to get past it. Even the story is way better than I was expecting, nothing spectacular but it knew exactly what it wanted to be and executed it very well. Absolutely cannot say enough good things about this loving game, go buy this poo poo right now if you haven't

Lost Generation
Feb 21, 2013

Apparently Dan is a sex symbol in France.


Hadn't heard anything about this game until the demo came out. I loved Desperados and Commandos, and this seems to be a highly polished addition to the genre. If you're in the UK it's also 20% off on Gamesplanet right now, and presumably their other EU sites. I have heard of people having problems with them when trying to buy from overseas though.

I'm still downloading it, but from the demo alone I'm going to guess that the Shogun's brother is the main villain, because he has the most British accent.

Zak2k12
Dec 23, 2008

"I looked back once to the empty place where my dream had come true. Such is the stuff."

I never thought I'd see a Commandos type real time tactics game executed so well in 2016. I'm nine missions in so far and I love the polish and feel of the game. The graphics look good, everything is easy to spot (the highlight button helps a lot), and the fact that you can rotate the map any way you want blew my mind. The controls work great most of the time.

Some of the level design has been hit and miss though: I loved the opening and night mission, but the rice paddy village was kinda tedious. In general, the missions that have more verticality (aka houses you can climb on) seem to be better than the flat ones. And swimming is borderline OP, since some of your team can breathe underwater indefinitely, you are undetectable when swimming, and you can dump bodies in water. I hope they do more night missions too, because the torch mechanic is neat. Character-wise, some of the the individual kits feel kind of strange to use individually, but they seem to work well together when you use them as a team. The difficulty ramps up smoothly, but I found some situations where my timing had to be extremely precise, down to the point where I almost felt like I was brute forcing the solution and there had to be a better way.

But overall I'm really digging it. f you like tactics games, this is definitely some game of the year material.

Snidesworth
Dec 31, 2007


Just finished what I assume to be the penultimate mission. How in the world are you meant to beat it without killing anyone? I managed it for a few segments, but there are some bits where it seems impossible, especially given how KOd guards wake up much faster than civilians.

marijuanamancer
Sep 11, 2001



I really like this game, I'm stuck on the prison and have been trying to figure out angles for kills. I never really played Commandos or Desperados in their day, are there any other more modern games in this genre? It doesn't seem like there are many real time tactical games like this

Snidesworth
Dec 31, 2007


This is the first notable entry in the genre for a while, I think.

As for that level, I highly recommend abusing the tanuki wherever possible. You can also chain it with Yuki's bird call to draw a guard way out of position.

Prav
Oct 29, 2011



Snidesworth posted:

Just finished what I assume to be the penultimate mission. How in the world are you meant to beat it without killing anyone? I managed it for a few segments, but there are some bits where it seems impossible, especially given how KOd guards wake up much faster than civilians.

the main thing is that someone you're carrying won't wake up. between using that to remove problem guards and create breathing room, distracting with kuma and rocks/powder you can slip by some really tricky stuff. if you hate yourself i think you can also reset the sleep timer by picking someone up and putting them down again, but i don't think this is necessary to beat the challenge and it's certainly not fun to micromanage.

make getting a kimono your number one priority, it makes life way, way easier for the obvious reasons.

i actually found the first part of the level to be the toughest, mostly because of the first samurai.

marijuanamancer
Sep 11, 2001



Snidesworth posted:

This is the first notable entry in the genre for a while, I think.
That's a shame cause this gameplay owns bones

Snidesworth posted:

As for that level, I highly recommend abusing the tanuki wherever possible. You can also chain it with Yuki's bird call to draw a guard way out of position.

How early in the level did you go for Yuki's bird call? I don't have it back yet

Snidesworth
Dec 31, 2007


Right. I forgot that you get it back quite late in the level.. Perhaps try using the tanuki and/or Hayato's pebbles to make basic guards spot footprints they'd otherwise miss, which should let you lead them away for a quick shanking and subsequent flight off a cliff.

How are people handling civilians by the way? I know that there's no real penalty for killing them, but I've not been able to bring myself to do it. I end up dumping them off in some vacant corner so they don't alert any guards when they wake up and have a long walk back.

marijuanamancer
Sep 11, 2001



Snidesworth posted:

How are people handling civilians by the way? I know that there's no real penalty for killing them, but I've not been able to bring myself to do it. I end up dumping them off in some vacant corner so they don't alert any guards when they wake up and have a long walk back.

If they get in the way they're supporters of the enemy! If not, well then alright

Really Pants
May 20, 2005

What's...where's...how do I even begin to describe your pants/underwear situation?!
You couldn't make your pants any lower, so you made pants for each leg! SAY IT!

Anyone I kill is giving their life for the Shogun. It's a big honor.

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TV dog Wishbone of PBS
Jul 20, 2007

You think that's illegal? Heh, watch this.


If it's a map with Mugen i punch them in the face and throw them on a roof.

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