Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

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FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

It's difficult to have a discussion on feminism on a largely male discussion forum without questions of how the issues impact men. And many of these are legitimate issues! But they're also issues that derail discussions about women's experiences and feminism from a woman's perspective. And that's not very feminist! So I'm going to quote a few posts - largely mine - that came up in the other thread, so the discussion can continue in this thread without further derailing the feminism thread.

A discussion of the impact of "women's work" on relationships between men and women

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Cool, barely into page 2 and already the most pressing feminist issue is male feelings. Since icantfindname, who is on my ignore list for being a huge bigot, incidentally, has had his answer maybe he can go off and chew on it by himself and not make this thread about him any longer? Men on the internet have a habit of seeing feminism threads as female attention dispensers, and it would be cool if people didn't let that happen here.

I am an activist in real life and one of the things I talk a lot about with people out there is concrete, achievable goals. With something as huge as patriarchy that can be hard, since it permeates everything and its causes and effects can be very hard to follow out. There's a kind of butterfly effect with societal biases - something as big as "why don't more women succeed in male-dominated fields?" is a river fed by tributaries so tiny people refuse to believe it could possibly matter, and get angry at the suggestion it does. Which is why I'd like to talk about the battlefront of my grandmother's generation of feminists, which has largely been forgotten by my own: Housework.

Ask any man who lives with a wife or girlfriend how much housework he does, and he'll usually say "about half," but taking stocks of all the domestic tasks that get done, that's almost never the case. Frequently a man is barely contributing to the work of keeping the home running at all, yet may feel his share of the chores is incredibly burdensome and he's selfless for putting up with it. Feminist men can be some of the worst offenders of this, because they know men should pull their weight, but the hidden sexism of their upbringing and their subconscious keeps them from really seeing how much work is actually done and who does it. If you ask a man about a household chore he doesn't do, he invariably says it doesn't "need" to be done - his wife or girlfriend only does it because she's so "picky," the silly woman.

Men tend to came the infrequent, showy tasks as their chores - cleaning the gutters might only need to be done once a year, and most importantly it's a concrete task with a satisfying finality when it's done. Not like laundry, dishes, wiping the countertops, vacuuming - a ceaseless grinding cycle of tasks that are never finished in the "don't have to do that again!" sense.

I have two articles I hope any cohabitating man will read. There's going to be some inevitable defensiveness, hysteria at being criticized, challenged, asked to think something new. Please don't post that here, it's not unique or informative, it's just growing pains you have to power through before a new idea can take roots in your brain.

Please also don't post to brag that you do, in fact, you'll have us know, contribute equally to the housework. Perhaps you even do more than the little lady! You're the one who needs to read this stuff most, because you're the one who doesn't even know all the work that needs to be done or who does it.

Here's a classic feminist piece, the best response I've ever seen to the reflexive "but you're just better at it, sweetie!" response men have about the chores they don't feel like doing. The Politics of Housework

Here's a blog post by a man who figured out the ingrained sexism he'd had regarding housework on his own. I haven't read the rest of his site, so if there's something impolitic in there I don't care. I like this post because he voices what I think is a pretty typical thought process men have about women "nagging" them about chores. The underlying assumption that poisons relationships and makes it impossible for men to see they're being sexist about chores is that women are always wrong and the things they want are stupid. You'll find this one lurking under a lot of sexism, really. It is nearly impossible to root out, because it's self-reinforcing. Men aren't being sexist when they assume women's thoughts are stupid and silly, they're just being level-headed and unbiased! Look how emotional this chick is getting when I tell her so, see, she was stupid and silly after all.

Anyway. She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By the Sink

I post these partly because men reading this thread in good faith might still have the impulse to whine "but what can I do?" You see us criticizing the structures of power, and you see yourself as powerless, and it's true. Odds are you're not a CEO cackling on the golf course about how no woman is ever going to make VP in your company, gat-dammit. But are you a man living with a woman who works just as hard as you, trying to succeed in a job just like you, who always has to put your dishes in the dishwasher for you because "who cares"? That's a drop of energy she has to burn and you don't, and those add up.

FactsAreUseless posted:

As a guy, I legitimately think most men - including myself - have no idea how to do this. It's just not something that we were taught how to do growing up, and without that knowledge a lot of men don't even realize it's not something they're doing. How would they? It's never been an issue, and if men also don't have the same standards for how a house should be cleaned you get the "it doesn't seem dirty to me" issue. Boys don't grow up constantly being told that it's work they need to know how to do like girls are, and they don't grow up seeing other men take care of it. It takes a lot of time to learn, there's a definite curve. Also, having had guy roommates, it's not like things get more evenly divided with men. poo poo just doesn't get taken care of as well. It's one of those places where we're straight up not preparing men for the real world by what we tell boys - or don't tell them, or don't even know we're telling them.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

That's very true, and I think that this, like a lot of feminist issues, is going to have to be solved in a generational way. Hypotheticals get too clunky, so here's how I really see things in my own family. My husband has older parents in a marriage that is very egalitarian for their generation, but noticeably different that my much younger, political activist parents. My dad read "The Politics of Housework" before I was born, and he and my mom have had serious discussions and occasional fights about ingrained sexism in housework. Thus my dad makes a very conscious effort to contribute, and was the primary cook when I was growing up, and in turn my brother is subconsciously much more aware of what needs doing and much more participatory than most men his age, to the point where he can't stand a typical fratty male roommate situation, because as you said frequently dudes just plain don't clean things.

My husband, in contrast, grew up seeing his dad go straight into the den after getting home from work, and straight into the living room after dinner. Both parents worked, which to my father-in-law makes them a radically feminist couple, but there was never any suggestion that dad might do more around the house than take care of the lawn and cars, and determine when it was time to call a repairman (his wife would be the one placing the calls and taking time off work to let them in).

My husband never saw his father helping around the house, and while his mom is aware that the concept of "women's work" is bullshit and made him do the same chores as his sister, he hit adulthood with that learned helplessness thing so many men do, where they just shrug and dawdle and say "you're better at it" until the women in their lives give up and do it themselves in exasperation.

I don't play that poo poo, so our first year living together had more than a few fights. It is true that learning things from the outside in will never be as effective as truly internalizing it. Right now his participation in the household work is entirely dependent on his memory. He has to actively remind himself to scan the house and check the status of the things he's memorized need doing, and when he does that it's great, but I hope if we have a son watching this example will help it be more instinctive for him, and we can keep making that progress so maybe next century this issue's finally settled.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Jolie Kerr writes "How to Clean Things" articles aimed at men as much as women, and she's a great place to start to try and understand the mindset. She hasn't written a "how to keep house" book yet, but when she does I'll buy it, because she's funny and has the reasonable and realistic attitude that cleaning things is just another kind of maintenance, not some showcase of femininity or quasi-religious virtue. Clean your stuff because you like your stuff and want your stuff to be nice.

Unfuck Your Habitat is another gender-neutral source of housekeeping advice, and since it's aimed at people who are starting from absolute zero, particularly those climbing out of depression-related squalor, it's fantastic both for lists of what to clean and how, and for breaking the process down into manageable baby steps.

Someone trying to train themselves to have an eye for what is clean and what is not could do a lot worse than trying out UFYH's "shine your sink'"or Jolie Kerr's "make your bed" daily mindfulness projects. You may not know how to analyze the whole house for cleanliness status, but you can see if the kitchen sink has crud in it or not every day and proceed accordingly. A clean sink makes dirt on the countertop more noticable, and it grows from there.

The Privilege Question: Do men benefit from Male Privilege?

Black Baby Goku posted:

What exactly is the advantage of someone with privilege to lose said privilege or give it up, even losing like 1% of their privilege?

FactsAreUseless posted:

Aside from the moral argument: Because not everyone in your life is going to be in the same race/gender/socioeconomic bracket. So even if you benefit from your privilege, people you care about are affected negatively by it. This has two immediate impacts: 1. The lives of people who care about are worse and 2. you will end up having to help care for those people. If a friend of yours can't find a place to live because they're black and gay, and they crash on your couch, that has a direct impact (economic and otherwise) on your life. If your wife or girlfriend can't get good medical care because her insurance doesn't cover an issue specific to women, that has a direct economic impact on your life. If your mother or daughter or sister makes less money because of her gender, that will have an economic impact on your life, direct or indirect. Privilege is only unequivocally beneficial if you surround yourself ONLY with others in your demographic: hence the rise of movements like Men Going Their Own Way, who seek to do that.

You also have to deal with the costs of accessing that privilege. Men lose access to male privilege, in whole or in part, if they don't act in the ways that men are supposed to act, under the same societal rules that enforce their privilege. If a man chooses to take a traditionally female job, like teaching, he loses economic power and privilege. Just as one example. But fighting back against the systems that enforce that privilege also fights back against the costs associated with accessing that privilege.

FactsAreUseless posted:

Yes. That's my point, though. They don't benefit from it in the way they think. That's what we need to demonstrate.

For instance, there are very few households, however conservative, that have one income, which is male. That is no longer a common situation. And if you are a two-income household, with a man and a woman, that woman's earning potential is lower. Raising women's wages doesn't automatically lower men's. If you fight wage discrimination, you raise the income of that entire household. It doesn't zero out. If you have a household that depends on a woman's income, because the man is retired or unemployed or she just earns more of the household income, wage discrimination is hurting the earning power of that whole household. That's why discrimination against women relies on a social narrative that no longer exists. Once you acknowledge economic reality, discrimination against women becomes even more irrational. Misogyny isn't to the benefit of men. It hurts them, in directly measurable economic ways. Not getting into the negative impacts on their ability to have healthy, happy relationships. Misogyny does economic harm to men. That's an important argument to make, loudly and clearly, and very often.

Obviously these are not the only issues to discuss in this thread, I just started it to stop derailing the feminism thread. But please discuss the impacts of patriarchy, etc. on men in this thread, as well as the role of men in feminism, etc. This is not a thread for misogyny or for men to rail against feminism or how it's not equal or whatever. But it is the thread for Just Asking Questions (if they're real questions).

# ? Dec 28, 2016 01:46

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 08:53

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Thank you for the thread, FAU! I'm glad to have a separate space for men's issues, keep up the good work!

# ? Dec 28, 2016 01:49

Black Baby Goku: Apr 2, 2011; by Nyc_Tattoo

How is it "not very feminist" to discuss issues about Men in relation to feminism?

# ? Dec 28, 2016 01:50

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Black Baby Goku posted:

How is it "not very feminist" to discuss issues about Men in relation to feminism?

It's not very feminist to drown out the ability for women to discuss their issues in a feminist discussion. Like by definition. Since SA is a largely male forum, and there are lots of legitimate things for men to discuss, you can have totally valuable conversation that silences women's voices. And silencing women is uh... un-feminist. But we don't want to just make that discussion against the rules, because it's a legitimate subject. So this is the solution.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 01:51

Black Baby Goku: Apr 2, 2011; by Nyc_Tattoo

FactsAreUseless posted:

It's not very feminist to drown out the ability for women to discuss their issues in feminism. Like by definition. Since SA is a largely male forum, and there are lots of legitimate things for men to discuss, you can have totally valuable conversation that silences women's voices. And silencing women is uh... un-feminist. But we don't want to just make that discussion against the rules, because it's a legitimate subject. So this is the solution.

So it silences women by bringing up a topic in the feminism thread that doesn't involve women? Are men and women not allowed to discuss issues that may not be from the place of their sex or lived experiences? Just seems silly to me but whatever. Thanks for answering.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 01:56

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008

I have an issue to discuss with my fellow men. Does anyone else hate it when you have to wear pants all day and your balls get sweaty and then when you take off the pants your inner thigh itches when it hits the air and sometimes you get that funky ball sweat smell. Baby powder or talcum powder seems to help with this. Any more "manhacks" to combat this issue?

# ? Dec 28, 2016 01:57

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Black Baby Goku posted:

So it silences women by bringing up a topic in the feminism thread that doesn't involve women? Are men and women not allowed to discuss issues that may not be from the place of their sex or lived experiences? Just seems silly to me but whatever. Thanks for answering.

I have an answer to this, but I'm having trouble phrasing it in a way that I'm satisfied with. I've erased this post a bunch of times and no promises that it makes any sense. Hopefully someone who's better at these things can express this better. But basically: there are a lot of societal factors that essentially add up to women having to think about where they're allowed to contribute their opinions, but men never do. Since, in a patriarchal society, men have more avenues to express themselves, it's important that feminist discussions carve out a space for women. Combine that with simple numbers - Something Awful is overwhelmingly men, way more so than our society as a whole - and it would be easy to have a feminism thread in which only men contribute. Which isn't feminist, because part of feminism is ensuring that women are able to speak and be heard.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 02:03

Colin Mockery: Jun 24, 2007; Rawr

Black Baby Goku posted:

So it silences women by bringing up a topic in the feminism thread that doesn't involve women? Are men and women not allowed to discuss issues that may not be from the place of their sex or lived experiences? Just seems silly to me but whatever. Thanks for answering.

It's so women can talk about things that some men are less interested in without being talked over or derailed, which has already happened, thus proving that a men-focused feminism thread would serve some sort of purpose.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 02:03

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Black Baby Goku posted:

So it silences women by bringing up a topic in the feminism thread that doesn't involve women?

feminism is pretty much about women's issues in a society which discriminates against women. there is some space there for "men's issues" in the way that men can also be damaged by the patriarchy - for example, young men stereotypically not knowing how (or being willing to) cook or clean or keep house is a problem when they move out on their own, which is part of why homes where young adult men live are often disgusting. like the stereotypical frat house. this is a problem! but it's only kind of sort of related to the bigger issue, that women are expected to take on a larger burden of unpaid domestic work and from a young age children are socially gendered, such that little boys and girls are given different expectations, where little girls generally aren't allowed to do many of the things boys can do and are instead expected to clean up and keep quiet

and by talking about "how does this big issue regarding women relate to me, a man" you can, even in sincerity and good faith, refocus the discussion about women's issues to be about men after all. this is because men tend to dominate conversations and that's almost a given on a dying old comedy discussion forum which is probably upwards of 2/3 men if not more. as a feminist man, one of the most useful skills you can learn is when to stop talking and let other people, particularly women, talk without adding your own thoughts or comments

boner confessor fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Dec 28, 2016

# ? Dec 28, 2016 02:04

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008

The patriarchy isn't real because I can't have Budweiser delivered with my papa johns pizza.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Dec 28, 2016 02:06

falcon2424: May 2, 2005

boner confessor posted:

feminism is pretty much about women's issues in a society which discriminates against women. there is some space there for "men's issues" in the way that men can also be damaged by the patriarchy - for example, young men stereotypically not knowing how (or being willing to) cook or clean or keep house is a problem when they move out on their own, which is part of why homes where young adult men live are often disgusting.

This is why we shouldn't mix up movements and ideologies.

Ideologies have infinite space. People could write a billion books on men. There will still be paper for books on women.

Movements don't have infinite space. A meeting lasts an hour. Each minute on men is a minute that's not spent on women.

So, male equality is (and should be) part of Feminism the ideology. But, if there are men's issues that need attention, that attention should come from its own social movement.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 02:14

Colin Mockery: Jun 24, 2007; Rawr

But really, what about the men?

My friend really liked The Mask You Live In as a feminist documentary about how men and boys are negatively impacted by societal expectations and toxic masculinity, but it seemed very much like a basic introduction to me. Not in a bad way or anything, but I felt like I didn't learn as much from it as I'd been hoping to.

(I watched it on Netflix a while ago, and its website is here: http://therepresentationproject.org/film/the-mask-you-live-in/ . I'd definitely recommend it to anyone who hasn't watched it before and wants a basic description of what toxic masculinity even is.)

Does anyone have recommendations for books or articles on the subject that are a little bit more advanced? Or if anyone wants to talk about their opinion of the documentary, that would be cool too.

Thanks!

Colin Mockery fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Dec 28, 2016

# ? Dec 28, 2016 02:25

Phyzzle: Jan 26, 2008

There is a famous anecdote in which a feminist author was giving an invited talk on women's studies. She was taking questions at the end, and after a while she said, "It's getting late, and we have time for maybe one for question." SHOOP, every woman's hand drops while the men keep their hands raised.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:09

MageMage: Feb 11, 2007; I SUCK AND LOVE TO YELL PERFORMATIVE HOT TAKES AND NONSENSE LIES WHEN I GET WORKED UP. SOMETIMES AUTOBANNED IS BETTER. MAYBE ONE DAY WHEN I STORM OFF I'LL ACTUALLY STOP SHITTING UP THE SITE FOR REAL

Good post, op.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:11

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Phyzzle posted:

There is a famous anecdote in which a feminist author was giving an invited talk on women's studies. She was taking questions at the end, and after a while she said, "It's getting late, and we have time for maybe one for question." SHOOP, every woman's hand drops while the men keep their hands raised.

What's the lesson from this? That the women should have kept their hands up and insisted on being heard, or that the men are bad and should have shut up?

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:16

Keeshhound: Jan 14, 2010; Mad Duck Swagger

icantfindaname posted:

What's the lesson from this? That the women should have kept their hands up and insisted on being heard, or that the men are bad and should have shut up?

That the women had internalized the misogyny that the speaker was working against. Jesus. :rolleyes:

Let me spell it out for you: they should have all kept their hands up.

Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Dec 28, 2016

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:22

ate shit on live tv: Feb 15, 2004; by Azathoth

Maybe this thread would be better then...What are some issues that are exclusive to women?

I can think of one.

Because something I've noticed on the occasions I attempt to educate myself via online feminism, the narrative is immediately seized by virtue signaling people who see feminism not as the notion of equality of all people, but as a club they get to exclude people from.

The next question is what are the issues modern feminism is facing and how can those issues be addressed?

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:24

Phyzzle: Jan 26, 2008

icantfindaname posted:

What's the lesson from this? That the women should have kept their hands up and insisted on being heard, or that the men are bad and should have shut up?

Option (a), ideally. But option (b) could be called, like, a form of affirmative action by conscientious men in a less-than-ideal world.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:27

UV_Catastrophe: Dec 29, 2008; Of all the words of mice and men, the saddest are,

"It might have been."; Pillbug

falcon2424 posted:

This is why we shouldn't mix up movements and ideologies.

Ideologies have infinite space. People could write a billion books on men. There will still be paper for books on women.

Movements don't have infinite space. A meeting lasts an hour. Each minute on men is a minute that's not spent on women.

So, male equality is (and should be) part of Feminism the ideology. But, if there are men's issues that need attention, that attention should come from its own social movement.

I agree with this. I think there's a lot to be gained from building a male-centric movement that tackles men's issues through a feminist lens. Right now, a ton of men take their problems into anti-feminist spaces that fill their heads up with a lot of garbage, and we end up with the horrors of the "men's right's movement".

The negative issues generated by forcing people to fit into the male gender role creates a lot of suppressed insecurity and anger, and it seems like these anti-feminist spaces are some of the very few places where men (especially young men) feel it's safe to open up about their frustrations and say whatever they want, no matter how embarrassing or problematic. And in exchange for a safe space where it's okay to vent freely, they're fed reactionary nonsense that encourages them to view feminism as the root of all male weakness and insecurity, and patriarchy as the antidote to their personal suffering.

I think if we could create feminist versions of these male spaces out there that allowed this kind of venting and offered men a counter-narrative that correctly puts their problems into the context of harmful gender roles and toxic masculinity, we could take the wind out of anti-feminist movements.

I don't know if this is supposed to be a legit thread or if it's a half-assed attempt to save the feminism thread from a dumb slap fight/derail, but either way, sincere discussion about this thread's topic absolutely needs to happen, imo. I hope this thread doesn't end up a total dumpster fire and/or forgotten in a day.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:37

Badger of Basra: Jul 26, 2007

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

Maybe this thread would be better then...What are some issues that are exclusive to women?

I can think of one.

Because something I've noticed on the occasions I attempt to educate myself via online feminism, the narrative is immediately seized by virtue signaling people who see feminism not as the notion of equality of all people, but as a club they get to exclude people from.

The next question is what are the issues modern feminism is facing and how can those issues be addressed?

Think harder.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:50

ate shit on live tv: Feb 15, 2004; by Azathoth

UV_Catastrophe posted:

I agree with this. I think there's a lot to be gained from building a male-centric movement that tackles men's issues through a feminist lens. Right now, a ton of men take their problems into anti-feminist spaces that fill their heads up with a lot of garbage, and we end up with the horrors of the "men's right's movement".

The negative issues generated by forcing people to fit into the male gender role creates a lot of suppressed insecurity and anger, and it seems like these anti-feminist spaces are some of the very few places where men (especially young men) feel it's safe to open up about their frustrations and say whatever they want, no matter how embarrassing or problematic. And in exchange for a safe space where it's okay to vent freely, they're fed reactionary nonsense that encourages them to view feminism as the root of all male weakness and insecurity, and patriarchy as the antidote to their personal suffering.

I think if we could create feminist versions of these male spaces out there that allowed this kind of venting and offered men a counter-narrative that correctly puts their problems into the context of harmful gender roles and toxic masculinity, we could take the wind out of anti-feminist movements.

I don't know if this is supposed to be a legit thread or if it's a half-assed attempt to save the feminism thread from a dumb slap fight/derail, but either way, sincere discussion about this thread's topic absolutely needs to happen, imo. I hope this thread doesn't end up a total dumpster fire and/or forgotten in a day.

Alright so let's start by identifying problems men face.

Many of the MRA talking points are just wrong, for example child custody battles, however a few incorrect assumptions doesn't invalidate all concerns.

So what factual concerns are there that men face?

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:50

ate shit on live tv: Feb 15, 2004; by Azathoth

Badger of Basra posted:

Think harder.

That was a common ground starting point, you start with the obvious then you invite others to contribute.

So maybe contribute rather then poo poo post?

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:52

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

Because something I've noticed on the occasions I attempt to educate myself via online feminism, the narrative is immediately seized by virtue signaling people who see feminism not as the notion of equality of all people, but as a club they get to exclude people from.

maybe you're extremely incompetent at self-education, powercrazy

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

So what factual concerns are there that men face?

overconfidence despite evident inadequacy and mediocrity, for one

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:57

Notorious R.I.M.: Jan 27, 2004; up to my ass in alligators

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Here's a classic feminist piece, the best response I've ever seen to the reflexive "but you're just better at it, sweetie!" response men have about the chores they don't feel like doing. The Politics of Housework

This is an awesome piece of writing. I never considered how much insight could be gained by looking at how the responsibility of tedium is distributed throughout the world, especially in our house and in our jobs.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 03:58

ate shit on live tv: Feb 15, 2004; by Azathoth

boner confessor posted:

overconfidence despite evident inadequacy and mediocrity, for one

How does feminism solve this issue?

And why is "mediocrity" a character flaw in your opinion?

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:03

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

How does feminism solve this issue?

And why is "mediocrity" a character flaw in your opinion?

men are often taught that, despite glaring inadequacies, they should speak up and assert themselves when they have nothing interesting to say or nothing valuable to contribute. this lack of introspection and self-knowledge is typically paired with the idea that masculinity is tied to the ability to lead and manage other people. really it's just part of the patriarchy to empower otherwise incompetent men to otherwise ignore their flaws, which inhibits personal growth - you can't solve a problem if you're not aware you have one

think really hard about this post

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:06

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

boner confessor posted:

men are often taught that, despite glaring inadequacies, they should speak up and assert themselves when they have nothing interesting to say or nothing valuable to contribute. this lack of introspection and self-knowledge is typically paired with the idea that masculinity is tied to the ability to lead and manage other people. really it's just part of the patriarchy to empower otherwise incompetent men to otherwise ignore their flaws, which inhibits personal growth - you can't solve a problem if you're not aware you have one

think really hard about this post

What's the problem with that? Why shouldn't mediocre and inadequate women speak up and assert themselves too? Allowing women to be mediocre instead of being pressured to be better than their male peers for the same rewards seems a very worth feminist goal to me

Unless the driving motivation is a hatred of and desire to cut down men instead of a desire to empower women, this post doesn't make a lot of sense

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Dec 28, 2016

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:11

UV_Catastrophe: Dec 29, 2008; Of all the words of mice and men, the saddest are,

"It might have been."; Pillbug

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

Alright so let's start by identifying problems men face.

Many of the MRA talking points are just wrong, for example child custody battles, however a few incorrect assumptions doesn't invalidate all concerns.

So what factual concerns are there that men face?

I think one pretty good starting point is the way that traditional notions of masculinity exacerbate mental health issues by causing men to not ask for help, or to ignore their personal issues, or to scorn the idea of "mental illness" altogether.

I personally knew one friend that felt this way and took his own life a few years ago. Nobody had any idea there was anything wrong.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:12

Sharkie: Feb 4, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

icantfindaname posted:

What's the problem with that? Why shouldn't mediocre and inadequate women speak up and assert themselves too? Allowing women to be mediocre instead of being pressured to be better than their male peers for the same rewards seems a very worth feminist goal to me

Unless the driving motivation is a hatred of and desire to cut down men instead of a desire to empower women, this post doesn't make a lot of sense

How often do you hear something about feminism and respond with ominous mutterings about misandry :lol:

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:24

Kubrick: Jul 20, 2004

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

Alright so let's start by identifying problems men face.

Many of the MRA talking points are just wrong, for example child custody battles, however a few incorrect assumptions doesn't invalidate all concerns.

So what factual concerns are there that men face?

Along with what UV_Catastrophe mentioned, the President's Counsil on Men and Boys is a good place to start: http://whitehouseboysmen.org/one-pager

"A nationwide crisis of boys and men already exists. The Commission identifies five components:

� Education. Boys are behind girls in almost every subject, especially reading and writing. Yet boy-friendly programs (e.g., recess and vocational education) are being curtailed.

� Jobs. Our sons are not being prepared for jobs where the jobs will be. Yet women rarely marry men in unemployment lines.

� Fatherlessness. A third of boys are raised in father-absent homes; yet boys and girls with significant father involvement do better in more than 25 areas.

� Physical health. Life expectancy has gone from one to five years less for males than for females, yet federal offices of boys and men�s health are non-existent.

� Emotional health. Boys� suicide rate goes from equal to girls to five times girls� between ages 13 and 20, as boys feel the pressures of the male role."

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:28

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Sharkie posted:

How often do you hear something about feminism and respond with ominous mutterings about misandry .

That post seemed pretty clear about the problem being worthless and inadequate men who think too highly of themselves? :shrug:

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:30

ate shit on live tv: Feb 15, 2004; by Azathoth

Kubrick posted:

Along with what UV_Catastrophe mentioned, the President's Counsil on Men and Boys is a good place to start: http://whitehouseboysmen.org/one-pager

"A nationwide crisis of boys and men already exists. The Commission identifies five components:

• Education. Boys are behind girls in almost every subject, especially reading and writing. Yet boy-friendly programs (e.g., recess and vocational education) are being curtailed.

• Jobs. Our sons are not being prepared for jobs where the jobs will be. Yet women rarely marry men in unemployment lines.

• Fatherlessness. A third of boys are raised in father-absent homes; yet boys and girls with significant father involvement do better in more than 25 areas.

• Physical health. Life expectancy has gone from one to five years less for males than for females, yet federal offices of boys and men’s health are non-existent.

• Emotional health. Boys’ suicide rate goes from equal to girls to five times girls’ between ages 13 and 20, as boys feel the pressures of the male role."

Thanks!

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:39

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

Kubrick posted:

Along with what UV_Catastrophe mentioned, the President's Counsil on Men and Boys is a good place to start: http://whitehouseboysmen.org/one-pager

"A nationwide crisis of boys and men already exists. The Commission identifies five components:

� Education. Boys are behind girls in almost every subject, especially reading and writing. Yet boy-friendly programs (e.g., recess and vocational education) are being curtailed.

� Jobs. Our sons are not being prepared for jobs where the jobs will be. Yet women rarely marry men in unemployment lines.

� Fatherlessness. A third of boys are raised in father-absent homes; yet boys and girls with significant father involvement do better in more than 25 areas.

� Physical health. Life expectancy has gone from one to five years less for males than for females, yet federal offices of boys and men�s health are non-existent.

� Emotional health. Boys� suicide rate goes from equal to girls to five times girls� between ages 13 and 20, as boys feel the pressures of the male role."

In addition to this, men are overwhelmingly likely to be the victims of non-intimate partner violence. And domestic violence resources for men are basically non-existent.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:44

ewe2: Jul 1, 2009

It is surprising that men would not deal with the issues Kubrick mentioned effectively. Is it just that we are too tunnel-visioned?

# ? Dec 28, 2016 04:56

punched my v-card at camp: Sep 4, 2008; Broken and smokin' where the infrared deer plunge in the digital snake

I've always found a certain degree of irony in the development of the "man-o-sphere" and the general rise of aggrieved nerd misogyny. In a lot of ways, it's the male victims of the patriarchy blaming feminism for the fact that conventional/patriarchal masculinity excludes and belittles them. I grew up a nerdling who was made fun of for being nonathletic and interested in weird stuff and I did feel a lot of frustration in how I couldn't measure up to what was expected of me as a man and that I wasn't reaping the rewards of being a man in terms of receiving female attention and male respect, which are issues I think underlie a lot of dumb MRA arguments. Unlike a lot of the GamerGate types, I've never forgot who was doing the mocking though- it was the jocks and traditionally masculine guys, not the handful of feminist women in my life.

I think a lot of young men, particularly those who are not very masculine by conventional standards, feel a fundamental tension between what they feel they should be as men, and should get as men, and their actual lived experiences. However, instead of blaming standards of manliness for creating unrealistic expectations and impossible standards, they end up blaming feminism for their inability to bridge that gap.

The one real critique of feminist practices in this regard is that I think that feminist men need to do more work to reach young men, and offer a constructive alternative to the reddit cesspools. Right now a lot of impressionable young men are starting with questions like "why can't I get a date?" and ending up with the answer "because feminists and cucks are destroying male america" because the spaces they go with the question are radicalizing them.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 05:08

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

ewe2 posted:

It is surprising that men would not deal with the issues Kubrick mentioned effectively. Is it just that we are too tunnel-visioned?

well like i said earlier, lack of self knowledge, particularly emotional knowledge, often leads to problems that an individual is unequipped to deal with. the idea of 'toxic masculinity' is one where people focus too much on 'being a man', whatever that manhood means, which can easily perpetuate harmful activities like fighting, domestic violence, child abuse, suicide, substance abuse, etc. simply from sheer lack of emotional regulation. some boys in america are raised to be tough, flinty, like a cowboy, never cry, never admit weakness or defeat, and so on which is really an unrealistic and self-damaging mindset

take jobs for an example - i grew up in a small southern town, a large portion of my white male peers were blue collar working class kids. college was simply something that you didn't do, it was a waste of time - liberal indoctrination or just loving around when you could be working for a living. pretty much none of these guys went to get education beyond high school, and now it turns out in our mid thirties that those who had the opportunity but didn't take it (our state has an excellent higher ed system including community college) was a bad choice and employment is much less secure and well paying if you went to work straight out of high school. job training has two components - lack of opportunity, because of poverty or inaccessibility or disability or whatever - and lack of desire, because there's still this attitude among men that you prove you're a man by working with your hands and starting a business, both increasingly unprofitable choices, instead of going to fruity college and reading books for however many years so you can get a stupid office job

and this isn't to blame people for how they were raised, but really to point at how "being a man" can cripple you later in life, sometimes literally, as you hustle two warehouse jobs to feed your family and ruin your back before age 40 because OSHA and weight belts are for sissies etc.

punched my v-card at camp posted:

The one real critique of feminist practices in this regard is that I think that feminist men need to do more work to reach young men, and offer a constructive alternative to the reddit cesspools. Right now a lot of impressionable young men are starting with questions like "why can't I get a date?" and ending up with the answer "because feminists and cucks are destroying male america" because the spaces they go with the question are radicalizing them.

i agree with the rest of your post but it's always easier to capture anger with anger rather than reason. people want a conspiracy against them to be true, that way they don't have to work so hard to avoid it

# ? Dec 28, 2016 05:13

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

I dunno if it's within the scope of this thread, but gay male culture in the US is pretty toxic and exclusionary. To throw out one example, gay men with more stereotypically effeminate mannerisms or dress get poo poo on a ton compared to str8-acting homobros.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 05:16

Badger of Basra: Jul 26, 2007

Pellisworth posted:

I dunno if it's within the scope of this thread, but gay male culture in the US is pretty toxic and exclusionary. To throw out one example, gay men with more stereotypically effeminate mannerisms or dress get poo poo on a ton compared to str8-acting homobros.

MASC4MASC

Do you have any good reading on this? I know it's true of course, as anyone with a Grindr profile does, but I've never looked into it seriously.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 05:17

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

Badger of Basra posted:

MASC4MASC

Do you have any good reading on this? I know it's true of course, as anyone with a Grindr profile does, but I've never looked into it seriously.

I don't but would be really interested in reading some good articles on it.

There's also a lot of racism, ageism, body shaming that goes on. MASC4MASC no fems fats or asians under 30 only.

Of course that's not true everywhere and for all of the subcultures but in my experience there's a lot of really unhealthy pressures and attitudes.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 05:24

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 08:53

Phyzzle: Jan 26, 2008

boner confessor posted:

men are often taught that, despite glaring inadequacies, they should speak up and assert themselves when they have nothing interesting to say or nothing valuable to contribute.

icantfindaname posted:

What's the problem with that? Why shouldn't mediocre and inadequate women speak up and assert themselves too?

"Inadequacies" as in "Inadequate knowledge", or Ignorance. Not . . . inadequate looks or muscles or penises or whatever else you might be thinking.

It is bad for ignorant people to speak up and assert themselves, because this is pretending to know what they are talking about. It is bad when men feel pressured to pretend something like that.

# ? Dec 28, 2016 05:56

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

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