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Good communication is not learned helplessness. If you need a loving Barney-style chore wheel in order to communicate that's a little silly but it's better then not communicating.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:19
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Guy Goodbody posted:I wanna make this clear. Here is my suggestion for how to deal with inequitable division of household chores: When two people start cohabitating, they should sit down and decide how to divide up the chores in a way that they both think is fair. That should happen at the start of the cohabitation. If they cannot come up with an agreement that is satisfactory to them both, them they probably shouldn't cohabitate. Again you loving moron, there's an article you lied about reading that explains why this doesn't work. And no assumptions needed dude, you are being a giant loving sexist right here in this thread. Any mention of you having an SO is entirely hypothetical. I can only hope no poor woman has to suffer your pigheaded assholery in real life.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:21
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The chores aren't the issue. I do chores more frequently than I might think they need doing simply because my fiance thinks they need doing,and I love her.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:21
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OwlFancier posted:
If it works, why not? What kind of bizarre marriage are you party to where it's incumbent on you to perpetually anticipate whatever your partner wants instead of just hashing it out openly like mature adults?
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Dec 29, 2016 04:22
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Guy Goodbody posted:You know what would also solve this problem? Both of the people talking about chores and comping up with an equitable division of labor when they first loving move in together. I think, if that is necessary, then the individual in question has not properly internalized the concept that their other half is equal to them. Or, I suppose, they don't really like them very much, but assuming they do like them and consider them equal then they should just be able to hear "I would like you to do some more work" and say "it's true, I don't do a lot, I will do more from now on" and then do it. Because, again, the person asking is your equal, they have a right not to spend their life picking up after you, you should believe that implicitly and be willing to act to realize it.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:22
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Guy Goodbody posted:You know what would also solve this problem? Both of the people talking about chores and comping up with an equitable division of labor when they first loving move in together. Nah, he didn't take well to discussing chores. He'd agree to do a chore, then not do it, and when I asked whether he was going to do it (even in the meekest, most feminine way) he would get all het up and say he was going to do it eventually, give him a chance. I could leave it as long as I liked and the thing never got done. Meanwhile, I have never discussed a single chore with my husband, and he just does stuff as he sees it needs doing. Whatta prince!
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Dec 29, 2016 04:23
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the trump tutelage posted:If it works, why not? What kind of bizarre marriage are you party to where it's incumbent on you to perpetually anticipate whatever your partner wants instead of just hashing it out openly like mature adults? Hahahaha jesus christ. Some of you are revealing quite a lot about yourselves here.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:23
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the trump tutelage posted:If it works, why not? What kind of bizarre marriage are you party to where it's incumbent on you to perpetually anticipate whatever your partner wants instead of just hashing it out openly like mature adults? How... else do you treat people you love?
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Dec 29, 2016 04:24
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OwlFancier posted:How... else do you treat people you love? He loafs and sulks and whines and takes endlessly while never giving, duh. I'm sure he's dynamite in bed.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:24
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rscott posted:The more I'm thinking about it, I think it actually does. All the roommates I've had that have been dudes have been slobs. I'm not exactly a neat freak but I live alone because I couldn't deal with having a place that I couldn't bring peole home to because it was trashed. All the same the chores I do to keep things clean are done begrudgingly at best because it really isn't something I think is worth my time, even if that time is probably spent doing something completely unproductive. It's an idea I never considered before. I can see it being sexist if you are simultaneously a slob and you expect your living area to be clean. If you're just a slob and you don't care either way, but your female partner does, then maybe you're a jerk but it's a goddamned far cry from misogyny.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:25
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Again you loving moron, there's an article you lied about reading that explains why this doesn't work. And no assumptions needed dude, you are being a giant loving sexist right here in this thread. Any mention of you having an SO is entirely hypothetical. I can only hope no poor woman has to suffer your pigheaded assholery in real life. Goddamn dude, you need to actually read that article. The lady got her husband to agree to "splitting the housework", there' not a single mention of them actually discussing what that would mean or divvying up specific duties. If anything, it actually is a lesson in the importance of having a chore chart instead of just expecting it to work out organically.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:25
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the trump tutelage posted:I can see it being sexist if you are simultaneously a slob and you expect your living area to be clean. That is, in fact, a very near cry to misogyny. Guy Goodbody posted:Goddamn dude, you need to actually read that article. The lady got her husband to agree to "splitting the housework", there' not a single mention of them actually discussing what that would mean or divvying up specific duties. If anything, it actually is a lesson in the importance of having a chore chart instead of just expecting it to work out organically. Why the gently caress are you lying to me? Do you think I'd dislike you any more if you just admitted "nope, tldr, lol"? The entire goddamn article you didn't read is about how the man chose not to do his share and all the excuses he came up with for it. The wording of the agreement doesn't loving matter, his choice not to follow it does. Christ almighty I hope you're single. Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 04:26
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the trump tutelage posted:I can see it being sexist if you are simultaneously a slob and you expect your living area to be clean. Actually assuming that your lack of concern for tidiness overrules her concern for cleanliness is quite systematically misogynist. "It doesn't matter to me, why should I care that it matters to you" is a founding stone of misogyny.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:28
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OwlFancier posted:How... else do you treat people you love? Do your best, and when that fails, use your words?
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Dec 29, 2016 04:28
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the trump tutelage posted:Do your best, and when that fails, use your words? Haha is this your best? Because dude. Dude.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:29
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:He loafs and sulks and whines and takes endlessly while never giving, duh. I'm sure he's dynamite in bed. You are being really hosed up and lovely in this thread. Please stop.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:30
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OwlFancier posted:Actually assuming that your lack of concern for tidiness overrules her concern for cleanliness is quite systematically misogynist. How so? We could make everyone men, everyone women, or everyone genderless porpoises and the situation wouldn't really change. It's not like slobs were clean when they were rooming with other people of the same gender
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Dec 29, 2016 04:32
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OwlFancier posted:Actually assuming that your lack of concern for tidiness overrules her concern for cleanliness is quite systematically misogynist. Sounds to me like a situation that could be resolved by the couple having a conversation. Maybe trying to decide what's a reasonable level of cleanliness they both can live with. Maybe figuring out a way to achieve that level that requires an equal amount of effort from both of them. Maybe they could write it down. In chart form. I dunno, just seems like that might work
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Dec 29, 2016 04:33
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falcon2424 posted:How so? We could make everyone men, or genderless porpoises and the situation wouldn't really change. Because which part of society do you suppose is favored by that mindset?
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Dec 29, 2016 04:33
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OwlFancier posted:Actually assuming that your lack of concern for tidiness overrules her concern for cleanliness is quite systematically misogynist. So any time you disagree with a woman, as a man, you're enacting misogyny? Are you loving insane?
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Dec 29, 2016 04:33
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OwlFancier posted:Because which part of society do you suppose is favored by that mindset? Slobs
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Dec 29, 2016 04:34
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could also tie in with men being less willing to seek treatment for depression due to socialization. Had an issue with my partner where he would do gently caress-all around the house, which pissed me off, but my reasoned arguments, begging, nagging, weeping, raging couldn't get him to change his behavior. Got him on an SSRI and now he's a functional partner again.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:34
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Haha is this your best? Because dude. Dude.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:35
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the trump tutelage posted:So any time you disagree with a woman, as a man, you're enacting misogyny? Are you loving insane? A cleaner house is a better place to live in and makes things last longer. I don't think this is a situation where the outcomes are equivalent and it's merely a matter of opinion
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Dec 29, 2016 04:38
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rscott posted:A cleaner house is a better place to live in and makes things last longer. I don't think this is a situation where the outcomes are equivalent and it's merely a matter of opinion
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Dec 29, 2016 04:40
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the trump tutelage posted:So any time you disagree with a woman, as a man, you're enacting misogyny? Are you loving insane? I'm not sure whether it was this or the other thread that had the helpful post about "personal is political" Your individual actions are not divorced from their societal context. "I don't care, why should I care that you do?" applied systematically, creates outcomes which strongly disfavor groups with less systemic power. You live in a world which favors men very strongly, for all that masculinity also harms men far more than anything else it creates a world where men have primacy, where men who do care about things create systemic solutions to problems that affect men, primarily, because they think about themselves. Self interest helps you and sometimes others in your position. To help people outside your position you require selflessness, you need to care about things other people care about, because they care about them and they are just as valid as you are, as people. While it may not make you feel very good, systemic misogyny is supported by the continuous failure of many, many people to stop thinking "I don't care, why should I care that you do?" And when you think that, you keep holding that edifice up in your own, small way. You cannot escape your participation in systems, only change which way you push in them. Or, more succinctly, saying "I don't care about what you think and don't see why I should" to a woman, as a man, does in fact, perpetuate marginalization of women by men.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:41
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:It's not an "assumption," rudatron, it's repeated observation. You are consistently, doggedly terrible about all forms of humanity except white men. You are a horrible person and anyone listening to you will become a worse human being. OwlFancier posted:The reason businesses have clear delineated responsibility is because you are not realistically expected to like or care about your employer and they need to know what you have done and who to blame if it is not done.
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Dec 29, 2016 05:08
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I don't see a healthy disregard for others' idiosyncrasies as a failure. Just because a woman feels intensely about something does not mean the men in her life are in any way obligated to accommodate it on the merits of her feeling intensity /gender nexus alone. Insofar as they do accommodate, I would hope it's because there are some merits to her demands, or because they care about the emotional well-being of someone they are close to, and not because she's a woman and they're men. Or to put it more succinctly, I don't think a world where gender dictates social interaction is one worth aspiring to.
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Dec 29, 2016 05:12
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I was opened up to feminist theory when I saw Jackson Katz's Tough Guise, which I was able to revisit years later. It was first released in 1999 and the material in it is horribly outdated by now, but it really hit home for me back then. I tried watching Tough Guise 2 when he released it, but I found it to be mostly pop-psychology nonsense compared to the original. Definitely watered down, but it is possible I had aged out of the target demographic, which was mostly teenagers anyway. The very few good things I found on trying to open up feminism to men were all from the Media Education Foundation, which is unfortunate since they only really market or sell their material to libraries and universities. It's further unfortunate, because even then the stuff is still pretty hit or miss. It comes down to Dreamworlds, Wrestling with Manhood, and Tough Guise unabridged / the first but not the second. There are a few others, but they're poo poo in comparison. (And there are other topics in which the Media Ed producers are either super great or ungodly awful; for example, they might be able to talk about broadcast and print media very well, but they're utterly clueless when it comes to video games.)
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Dec 29, 2016 05:16
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The underlying philosophical difference here should probably be noted: the position being put forward is that men aren't doing housework because of some kind of personal failing, which is either expressed as a disregard for the welfare of their partner (which they're gleefully profiting off), or a combination of arrogance and a superiority complex. I don't think that's a fair or even reasonable explanation, nor is it helpful. The far more likely explanation in my mind is a lack of perspective, the failure to communicate needs and wants honestly, and a lack of trust. The majority of people do not want to do wrong, but they do not want to feel pressured or judged. That's not something limited to 'men', because of patriarchy of whatever, that's a universal human constant. That basic psychology of human beings needs to be understood, and designed around, in the everyday habits and procedures of your normal waking life, if society is to run smoothly and if you, personally, are to find happiness. Accepting the necessity of these procedures is not 'failing at being an adult', it is not a sign of stupidity, it is accepting what is beyond your control and what is not, and coming to terms with that.
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Dec 29, 2016 05:21
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All I could think when reading the Politics of Housework was, "But most men around here do in fact know what 100% of the housework is like." quote:8. Most men had a rich and rewarding bachelor life during which they did not starve or become encrusted with crud or buried under the liner. There is a taboo that says women mustn' t strain themselves in the presence of men-we haul around 50 pounds of groceries if we have to but aren't allowed to open a jar if there is someone around to do it for us. The reverse side of the coin is that men aren't supposed to be able to take care of themselves without a woman. Both are excuses for making women do the housework. This is such an odd response . . . Was there an entire paragraph after that first sentence that got accidentally deleted from the original 1970 article? P.S. Guy Goodbody and rudatron, chore charts are not "the solution" - for that particular guy in that particular article you were pointing to. They're no doubt a good solution for lots of people, but that guy would never have really agreed to or followed such a list. He needed an attitude adjustment, before any re-organization. Phyzzle fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 06:04
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To port a question from the other thread: quote:men are told to pretend to listen by other men (my father's advice for my first date was to pretend to listen and agree with everything she says), and that women aren't really saying anything interesting or important (when women complain about their day, they don't want advice, they just want to vent, so just pretend to listen, it's not very important), OwlFancier posted:It's very strange coming from a background without any men in it, hearing stuff like this. I remember hearing, "You should play off all of her serious questions, and indulge all of her whims. Women experience this as 'Romance'." I guess internet-accessible dating advice must have improved somewhat in the last decade? For men, the options used to be pretty much PUA sites.
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Dec 29, 2016 06:33
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It's a good 1970s article and a good way to talk about male privilege and gender roles. But it's not so great in tyool 2016 in the supposed "patriarchy's effects on men" thread. I'm gonna posit another question from the OP because this housework chat is lame. The Privilege Question: Do men benefit from Male Privilege? This was my first personal breakthrough Feminism, when I felt justified in believing in Feminism. Why did I have to feel justified? I grew up in a traditional Mexican social sphere. Women were subservient to men. Men led relationships. Women could be catcalled and macho men had as many girlfriends/wives as they could. I could go on for days about the ridiculousness of Hispanic gender norms. I started considering myself a Feminist in high school. It was mainly realizing the toxicity of Mexican misogyny coupled with personal skepticism which led me to really thinking about women's inequality. I soon realized that misogyny was not only ruining women's lives, but creating rear end in a top hat husks of just as many men. Men were depriving themselves of real, wholesome relationships with the women of their lives due to their sexism. Men were putting undue stress on themselves trying to lead every relationship they were in. They were keeping their feelings bottled up and becoming suicidal alcoholics. Again, the list could go on for days. By the time I reached college, Feminism was a bad word. Internet trolls harped about "Feminazis." Tumblr and mass media gave Feminism a bad name. My girlfriend at the time wasn't a Feminist herself. She had objections, related to how she perceived the most vocal members of the movement. I remember sharing my thoughts on the double nature of misogyny and she had her own breakthrough. She was already for women's liberation and empowerment, but she had never thought about sexism's effects on men. Being Mexican herself, and being raised to respect, care for, and to worry about men, it really hit a chord with her that men were killing women and themselves at the same time (literally and figuratively). Back to the question: I won't go into men benefiting from male privilege, but I could go on forever about the negatives. It's really sad how men don't see the sexist, loving, monkey on their back that they should chuck off.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:03
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:He loafs and sulks and whines and takes endlessly while never giving, duh. I'm sure he's dynamite in bed. Your projecting of bad behavior onto other posters in neither productive or informative. Bonus points for non-sequitur dig at the posters masculinity in a thread made for the express purpose of discussing toxic masculinity on men. I suggest sticking with the classics and insinuating he has a small penis next. Xibanya posted:could also tie in with men being less willing to seek treatment for depression due to socialization. Had an issue with my partner where he would do gently caress-all around the house, which pissed me off, but my reasoned arguments, begging, nagging, weeping, raging couldn't get him to change his behavior. Got him on an SSRI and now he's a functional partner again. This is a very good point. I'd also add that beyond stigma most people do not have the tools or experience to recognize mental illness when they see it. So even if a man is willing to get help he may suffer for years before he encounters someone who recognizes his problem and points him in the right direction. Depression in particular can be difficult for men to recognize in themselves as ahedonia and flat affect can often seem to be expressions of stoic masculinity.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:07
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This is a good talk on toxic masculinity: http://www.ted.com/talks/tony_porter_a_call_to_men Many of the solutions go into how we treat and talk to children and the specifics of the language we use. It's also a nice primer to link people who haven't heard or thought much about the issue.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:34
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Let us English posted:Your projecting of bad behavior onto other posters in neither productive or informative. Bonus points for non-sequitur dig at the posters masculinity in a thread made for the express purpose of discussing toxic masculinity on men. I suggest sticking with the classics and insinuating he has a small penis next. What you guys never seem to get is that there's no projection needed, you display more than enough bad behavior right here in these kinds of conversations. And the problem with being a selfish lover is not lack of virility, but it says quite a bit about you that you think it is.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:38
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:What you guys never seem to get is that there's no projection needed, you display more than enough bad behavior right here in these kinds of conversations. And the problem with being a selfish lover is not lack of virility, but it says quite a bit about you that you think it is. I never mentioned virility. I was referring being a selfish lover as you were. This is what I mean when I say you're projecting. I could be wrong though. It's also possible you're arguing in bad faith.
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Dec 29, 2016 08:06
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:What you guys never seem to get is that there's no projection needed, you display more than enough bad behavior right here in these kinds of conversations. And the problem with being a selfish lover is not lack of virility, but it says quite a bit about you that you think it is. You're incredibly hostile to anyone that disagrees with you, and throw in personal attacks that only serve to turn the thread into a flame war. I agree with almost all of the actual points you've been making, but making cracks about the masculinity and sexual ability of male posters you disagree with is only perpetuating the same macho bullshit culture this thread is about. If you're interested in having a discussion instead of just flaming people you disagree with I think your approach is counterproductive. Phyzzle posted:P.S. Guy Goodbody and rudatron, chore charts are not "the solution" - for that particular guy in that particular article you were pointing to. They're no doubt a good solution for lots of people, but that guy would never have really agreed to or followed such a list. He needed an attitude adjustment, before any re-organization. This, exactly. It's not the stupid dishes, it's the attitude that leaving them by the sink all the time represents, and the lack of respect for his wife that it indicates. You don't solve that with a chore wheel. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 08:14
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Agreeing with all of this. I wish smart people wouldn't kneecap their good ideas with flaming.
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Dec 29, 2016 08:35
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How do we fix the fact that women appear to be more sexually responsive to men who are strong, capable, and have high social status? Men who often command other men. It's as if women, by their very existence, fuel toxic masculinity, because men who succeed at that version of masculinity tend to be more sexually successful, which creates a huge incentive for the continuance of toxic masculinity. I am happy to be open about my lack of caring about sports, or my eagerness about reading poetry by the lakeside, but the result of that would often be that most women would consider me a fruit.
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Dec 29, 2016 08:50
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