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Call Me Charlie posted:
-a white person with nothing to lose
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Dec 30, 2016 19:44
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JonathonSpectre posted:I look in vain for the word "Nazi" or "Hitler" in my post. Considering you mentioned Germany and followed it up with Rwanda (genocide) and Armenia (genocide), it doesn't take a genius to realize you were referencing the Nazis. There's a ton of Trump rallies on YouTube. Try sitting down and watching one of them. They aren't 2 hours of 'boy, aren't these ragheads and wetbacks causing some trouble. don't worry, uncle donny's gonna make em pay  ' because there was an actual economic message and it goes beyond blaming minorities for everything. Whether he can enact any of it is yet to be seen but I'm not surprised that people hurting chose him over 'America's already great. Four more years' Clinton. stone cold posted:-a white person with nothing to lose Quick swap out white with any other ethnicity and see if that type of rhetoric flies. Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 20:11
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Call Me Charlie posted:
Call Me Charlie posted:Considering you mentioned Germany and followed it up with Rwanda (genocide) and Armenia (genocide), it doesn't take a genius to realize you were referencing the Nazis. Dude won the primary solely by blaming the economy on immigrants and whipped them into a frenzy about building a wall. Said people are on board with tracking Muslims in America and banning new folks from coming in. Even after literally doing so, George Bush had the goddamn sense not to come out and say it. You don't whip up a rally like that without intent to take it further. Secondly, you don't start at Genocide. You start at tracking. You start at blame. Next you have ghettos. Then you get camps. Then you get gas chambers. It never starts with murder, but it usually ends up that way. Talmonis fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 20:36
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Talmonis posted:Dude won the primary solely by blaming the economy on immigrants and whipped them into a frenzy about building a wall. Said people are on board with tracking Muslims in America and banning new folks from coming in. Even after literally doing so, George Bush had the goddamn sense not to come out and say it. You don't whip up a rally like that without intent to take it further.
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Dec 30, 2016 20:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Why not? It's extremely irresponsible. "Starting a riot" irresponsible, on the scale of a country.
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Dec 30, 2016 20:46
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Talmonis posted:It's extremely irresponsible. "Starting a riot" irresponsible, on the scale of a country.
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Dec 30, 2016 20:49
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The people who think Trump is going to start any war with China, Hot Cold or Trade, are probably the most delusional and least informed people ITT. I guarantee you, at this very moment, that they're buddying up with Trump to gut the Trans Pacific FuckChina'sMiddleClass ratfuck behind closed doors. The people who think that he's playing with fire by not respecting pointless propaganda about loving Taiwan are angling for a Tom Clancy book deal. It's like, one of the few good things we are 100% certain will come of a Trump presidency.
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Dec 30, 2016 20:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Got me there. I'm sure Trump would never do something irresponsible. If he's as smart as some think he is, doing something that irresponsble, that could quite literally and figuratively blow up in his face, would be unthinkable. If he's just a rich moron on autopilot, high on his own fumes? Well, that just proves the rest of us right.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:05
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Neurolimal posted:It's like, one of the few good things we are 100% certain will come of a Trump presidency. Bless your heart 
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Dec 30, 2016 21:06
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Call Me Charlie posted:
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Dec 30, 2016 21:28
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Talmonis posted:Dude won the primary solely by blaming the economy on immigrants and whipped them into a frenzy about building a wall. Said people are on board with tracking Muslims in America and banning new folks from coming in. Even after literally doing so, George Bush had the goddamn sense not to come out and say it. You don't whip up a rally like that without intent to take it further. If you believe the gossip, Donald Trump settled on the idea of a wall because he's a builder and that's something inside his wheelhouse. Which sounds ridiculous as hell but ridiculous is the whole Trump campaign. Also if he was blaming the economy on immigrants, he wouldn't have said '"It's gonna be a great wall. This will be a wall with a big, very beautiful door because we want the legals to come back into the country." that makes it a law and order thing. (And I think you'd be surprised how many lefty New Yorkers would agree that the Muslim stuff falls under same 'law and order' umbrella. Not saying it's right, just trying to point out that maybe it's not the first step to concentration camps/genocide you think it is) He mostly blamed the economy on free trade, bad trade deals and regulations. (Regardless of who you voted for, I think we can all agree that last one is a little scary) Talmonis posted:If he's as smart as some think he is, doing something that irresponsble, that could quite literally and figuratively blow up in his face, would be unthinkable. If he's just a rich moron on autopilot, high on his own fumes? Well, that just proves the rest of us right. He has a history of playing up things to build support and downplaying those same things once he 'wins' (see: birtherism, all his rhetoric towards ted cruz or the 'lock her up' chants) So, yeah, he could be smart and playing with fire at the same time.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:30
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Call Me Charlie posted:(And I think you'd be surprised how many lefty New Yorkers would agree that the Muslim stuff falls under same 'law and order' umbrella. I would be *very* surprised! I know *lots* of lefty New Yorkers and most of them would call you a Nazi for saying this.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:32
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Neurolimal posted:The people who think Trump is going to start any war with China, Hot Cold or Trade, are probably the most delusional and least informed people ITT. Yeah Trump winning the election has spared the US at least one big war and possibly two. Hillary would almost definitely have the US in a war with Russia with her stupid no-fly zone over Syria and probably wouldn't be above backing Japan's play in the South China seas if her poll numbers were looking a bit wonky later on in the term. China's not going to do anything but suck up to Trump.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:38
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BarbarianElephant posted:I would be *very* surprised! I know *lots* of lefty New Yorkers and most of them would call you a Nazi for saying this. Any of those above 30? (also nice job editing out the 'Not saying it's right' part of that quote. I don't agree with those people.)
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Dec 30, 2016 21:41
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:Yeah Trump winning the election has spared the US at least one big war and possibly two. Hillary would almost definitely have the US in a war with Russia with her stupid no-fly zone over Syria and probably wouldn't be above backing Japan's play in the South China seas if her poll numbers were looking a bit wonky later on in the term. China's not going to do anything but suck up to Trump. Why do conservatives want to suck the dick of Russia right now? If you look at the history of diplomacy with Russia, they have been more provoked than a no-fly zone and not nuked the world. Google "Cuban missile crisis." The game the US and Russia plays is one of continuously passive-aggressively needling each other and backing off. Don't wet yourself every time Russia does something. They don't respect weakness. And as for Japan doing .... something....? A war? You are literally from 1945 right? Japan has an army of less than 300,000.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:46
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Call Me Charlie posted:Any of those above 30? Yes, most of them. I'm not one of you young whippersnappers! Call Me Charlie posted:(also nice job editing out the 'Not saying it's right' part of that quote. I don't agree with those people.) I'm not saying you are an alt-righter who studs things he believes with Trump-esque "Some people say" hedging. That would be wrong of me. I would absolutely condemn anyone who said that. 100%. It would be wrong, so wrong.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:49
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BarbarianElephant posted:Why do conservatives want to suck the dick of Russia right now? If you look at the history of diplomacy with Russia, they have been more provoked than a no-fly zone and not nuked the world. Google "Cuban missile crisis." The game the US and Russia plays is one of continuously passive-aggressively needling each other and backing off. Don't wet yourself every time Russia does something. They don't respect weakness. i don't know, I'm from the UK and all political parties seem to despise Russia no matter what. If you think there's no tension between China and Japan and that Japan isn't preparing to rearm due to China flexing its muscles in the region then I don't know what to tell you. Japan isn't permanently down and out because it's not a huge military power right this minute.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:55
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:If you think there's no tension between China and Japan and that Japan isn't preparing to rearm due to China flexing its muscles in the region then I don't know what to tell you. Japan isn't permanently down and out because it's not a huge military power right this minute. Where do you get this poo poo? I can't even blame the Daily Mail because it doesn't care about Japan except in the area of cute robots. Anywhere *could* be a big fascist power in 20 years. Watch out for that sneaky Mongolia! Don't let Brazil rearm!
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Dec 30, 2016 21:57
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BarbarianElephant posted:Where do you get this poo poo? I can't even blame the Daily Mail because it doesn't care about Japan except in the area of cute robots. who said anything about fascism? Abe's been trying to rewrite article 9 of the Japanese constitution (the part outlawing war as a means of state diplomacy) to allow for greater defence spending specifically because of the threat China supposedly poses to Japan in the region. E: it's pretty well-known so tbh I'm a little surprised about your smug act there.
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Dec 30, 2016 22:02
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:who said anything about fascism?
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Dec 30, 2016 22:09
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Nowhere in the world is immune to rabid nationalism. Japan is one of those places that is not currently considering it. Americans speculating on this should look to the mote in their own eye.
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Dec 30, 2016 22:10
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BarbarianElephant posted:I'm not saying you are an alt-righter who studs things he believes with Trump-esque "Some people say" hedging. That would be wrong of me. I would absolutely condemn anyone who said that. 100%. It would be wrong, so wrong. It will never stop being funny to me how borderline-hysterical Hillary supporters keep accusing me of being part of the alt-right when I try to post in threads where they ask questions about how something could happen. Click the rap sheet button to reveal where I stand. (Also I definitely don't have any ties in New York and I absolutely don't visit family there. Nope. Never. In fact, there's zero New Yorkers who lived there in 2001 that have a chip on their shoulder about 9/11. It's unheard of. ... this sarcasm thing is pretty fun  )
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Dec 30, 2016 22:19
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Call Me Charlie posted:It will never stop being funny to me how borderline-hysterical Hillary supporters keep accusing me of being part of the alt-right when I try to post in threads where they ask questions about how something could happen. Click the rap sheet button to reveal where I stand. I checked it out and I am sorry for your blu-ray loss  Call Me Charlie posted:(Also I definitely don't have any ties in New York and I absolutely don't visit family there. Nope. Never. In fact, there's zero New Yorkers who lived there in 2001 that have a chip on their shoulder about 9/11. It's unheard of. ... this sarcasm thing is pretty fun Are we perhaps confusing right-wing New Yorkers and left-wing New Yorkers? Remember that the right in New York probably sounds like the left in the rest of the country.
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Dec 30, 2016 22:24
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BarbarianElephant posted:Remember that the right in New York probably sounds like the left in the rest of the country. I've lived in NYC for roughly a year--which isn't hugely long but I feel enough for a sample size--and currently live in Texas. This is not true or you really didn't get to Long Island and Upstate enough* *im kidding, it sounds like you got to Long Island and upstate exactly enough tbh Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 23:51
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:who said anything about fascism? I personally laugh at this because acting like a county that has one of the largest and most powerful militaries in the world as "rearming". Japan is already armed to the teeth. Certainly amending their constitution an increase the aggressive posture they can take with their military and perhaps even increase that spending even more, but they are hardly defenseless.
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Dec 30, 2016 23:54
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Raldikuk posted:I personally laugh at this because acting like a county that has one of the largest and most powerful militaries in the world as "rearming". Japan is already armed to the teeth. Certainly amending their constitution an increase the aggressive posture they can take with their military and perhaps even increase that spending even more, but they are hardly defenseless. but it's called a self-defence force and is for self defence!
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Dec 30, 2016 23:55
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Frijolero posted:Democrats love big business and free trade. Let's not pretend that they've been some healthy alternative to neoliberalism. To Rust Belt voters it was a choice between an unfettered capitalist who promised staying the course and an unfettered capitalist who promised them jobs. Thanks to the Rust Belt, Democrats are more or less powerless to help the Rust Belt now. Now is the time to poo poo on them and stay out of the way when the Republicans are making GBS threads on them.
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Dec 31, 2016 00:29
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Hobologist posted:Thanks to the Rust Belt, Democrats are more or less powerless to help the Rust Belt now. Now is the time to poo poo on them and stay out of the way when the Republicans are making GBS threads on them. Yes the rust belt, a place famously important to the democrats who certainly gave a poo poo about it
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Dec 31, 2016 00:37
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Call Me Charlie posted:It will never stop being funny to me how borderline-hysterical Hillary supporters keep accusing me of being part of the alt-right when I try to post in threads where they ask questions about how something could happen. Click the rap sheet button to reveal where I stand. (Also I definitely don't have any ties in New York and I absolutely don't visit family there. Nope. Never. In fact, there's zero New Yorkers who lived there in 2001 that have a chip on their shoulder about 9/11. It's unheard of. ... this sarcasm thing is pretty fun You sound like you voted for Trump and hate Muslims. Did you vote for Trump and do you hate Muslims?
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Dec 31, 2016 01:33
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:but it's called a self-defence force and is for self defence! Are you american because lmao for criticizing someone else's defense policy that you more or less enforced after burning 90 percent of the island to the ground in the most destructive war mankind has ever seen. I guess maybe you still think it's 1939 and the rape of nanking is still happening, but it's actually going to be 2017 fairly soonish here, WW2 is long over, and China is dredging up small islands in the SCS and putting weapons on them while also pretending its territorial waters extend to approximately wherever the shade of "chinese territorial waters" looks nicest on the map. Everyone who isn't China in that region has legitimate concerns, but please keep clutching your pearls about the evil nips and the empire of the rising sun
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Dec 31, 2016 01:44
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fivegears4reverse posted:Are you american no but thank you for the rest of that excellent essay based on the premise, I'm sure it made total sense and wasn't a weird overreaction to a throwaway joke.
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Dec 31, 2016 02:31
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Willie Tomg posted:I've lived in NYC for roughly a year--which isn't hugely long but I feel enough for a sample size--and currently live in Texas. This is not true or you really didn't get to Long Island and Upstate enough* Yeah, if we are talking upstate,fair enough, but I think those guys would call themselves "conservative", not "left wing."
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Dec 31, 2016 03:41
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Hobologist posted:Thanks to the Rust Belt, Democrats are more or less powerless to help the Rust Belt now. Now is the time to poo poo on them and stay out of the way when the Republicans are making GBS threads on them. Yup, blame the disillusioned voters and not the god awful candidate. This is going to work wonders in 2018 and 2020.
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Dec 31, 2016 04:44
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Rush Limbo posted:Rust Belt voters voted for unfettered capitalism, then got hosed by unfettered capitalism, which surprisingly will always go where the money is (who would have known?) then in an effort to get back to the glory days voted for unfettered capitalism once more. They mostly didn't vote. And this attitude is a big part of why they didn't. They didn't see anything to help them on either side of the line, between the relentless liberal smugness that seemed to actively loathe their existence or focus on helping the technical and professional business interests that were destroying their jobs, and the clear intent of the GOP to just ignore them or treat them as insects in the way of the industries that they formerly had jobs with but were now surplus to. The result was, mostly, a huge falloff in voter turnout. Some people flipped parties, some people radicalized in various directions, but mostly, the GOP got the same voter tranches they always do and many other people did not participate. The answer isn't to blame the people who didn't vote, it is to understand why they didn't vote and change that. Having our party elites stop giving off the impression that they'd be really cheered if all our 'surplus labor' was bulldozed into an open mineshaft would be a really good start, probably.
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Dec 31, 2016 05:16
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You did a great job guys. Those jerbs will be coming back any day now.
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BarbarianElephant posted:Nowhere in the world is immune to rabid nationalism. Japan is one of those places that is not currently considering it. Americans speculating on this should look to the mote in their own eye. ...Japan has huge issues with a resurgent right wing nationalism in their domestic politics and culture right now. It's been one of the features of how Shinzo Abe has governed, and its been something pointed out by a lot of cultural observers. Most of his ministers are from a super nationalist, historical revisionist sub-party. It's worth reading up on nippon kaigi if you weren't aware of this.
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Dec 31, 2016 05:28
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The key to Trump's victory is probably that he essentially said "A lot of poo poo's hosed!" in a way that resonated with his audience. No hedging, no couched language, no seemingly insincere reassurances that things are fine and nothing needs to change. For a middle-class Trump voter, every report of outsourcing, of H1B visa abuse, of American workers being made to train their replacements, of layoffs and age discrimination (since they're old) and their supervisor or manager or boss being an rear end in a top hat to them and their frustration at having to take it probably poured fuel on their fire. Add to that anxiety about their economic position (because middle-class is a relative thing when you're really in debt to your eyeballs, 40+ years of age, and afraid that you'll get pinkslipped just because next quarter's projections are "problematic"), bigotry ("It's all Indians doing the tech work cheap! Companies are more concerned with diversity quotas and hiring queers, minorities, and women!") and some single-issue interests that a "Hill Clinton" victory would have been bad for in their eyes (be it guns, gays, God, abortion, whatever), and you have a veritable bonfire. Hypothetically, there are valid issues in all of that, which the Democrats could have pressed on now that middle-class white society is potentially feeling some of the same pinch that the poor and minorities have. Income inequality, a strengthening of labor rights and protections, expanding social safety nets, and so on. It wouldn't have swayed the incorrigibly right-wing to vote Dem, but some strident language and policy positions about these issues and even a honest (if vague) acknowledgement that things aren't as good as they could be might have done wonders at getting out more support and nudging the electoral college to their side. I believe that the Democrats have been complacent as poo poo about not rocking the boat, and I think much of the electorate has been complacement about it, too. After eight years of Obama at the helm and a few high-profile social advancements, it can be kind of easy to take an "end of history" view that things might be getting better in the long run, so long as nothing profoundly changes. That's now been shown to be a false and shaky view to maintain. We (liberals, progressives, general Democratic voters and the like, and I include myself in this voter group of course) have been in a kind of Lala Land of believing that staying the course and expecting incremental change is viable over the long haul. And now we've been nastily awakened as to what a pleasant but delusional dream that is. And it's obvious now, in the light of the morning after - a party that can only work in small increments isn't one that can stop a swelling wave, be it political or (in the case of climate change and potentially rising sea levels) literal. We've been content to twiddle our thumbs while hoping "our side" gets its poo poo into gear to tackle the big problems, and that hosed us over. It's time to admit it, be embarrassed and angry as poo poo about it, and move towards action. Meanwhile, the Republicans have been rocking their boat constantly, fistfighting each other, ratfucking each other, and paring things down considerably. And while that can be a sign of a party in disarray, it can also be a strong gamble for rebirth - the survivors are the most ruthless, daring, and scrappiest of the gang. And so long as a majority of their particular electorate believes that to be a sign of strength, that makes them all the more potent. Trump's reckless, but that also shows a willingness to shake things up and get things done regardless of the consequences. That's undoubtedly attractive to an electorate that is tired of (in their view) inactive and uninspired governance, mealy-mouthed excuses for why Issue X can't be dealt with seriously, and gladhanded assuagement of their fears while "their jobs" and "their money" and "their country" just get sold out and flushed down the tubes. And Trump's appeal is that he has ignored playing the game of principles and decorum, because to his electorate, all that respectability and decorum has done for them is lead to poisonous stagnancy (hence "drain the swamp!") and made them passive victims for the sake of governmental appearance and theatre up front while they're screwed over in the back. Finally, I guess, to his supporters Trump's win is both an attempt to reform the system (albeit in the worst possible way) and, subconsciously, a test to see if the system can be reformed and redeemed politically. It's all guesses as to how much fervent tolerance his support base will have as his administration rolls forward and what their limit is, but I suspect a key to Trump 2020 will be delivering something tangibly and visibly new or different from the status quo (even if, again, it's something horrible). No overt changes could lead to a dampening of fervor, perhaps even more so than horrible policy side effects. Of course, that could lead to even more radicalism as they start crying "Democracy has failed, bring on the enlightened dictator!"...
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Dec 31, 2016 06:10
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BarbarianElephant posted:Yeah, if we are talking upstate,fair enough, but I think those guys would call themselves "conservative", not "left wing." They would. As would most people with the same political views in the Tri State area.
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Dec 31, 2016 12:07
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Frijolero posted:Yup, blame the disillusioned voters and not the god awful candidate. This is going to work wonders in 2018 and 2020. Yes, it's certainly the candidates fault that people are willing to vote for them. I mean, it's not as if the people who vote have any agency, it's those horrible mind control rays that was responsible. I mean, if these people truly have no agency, no concept of what it is they're voting for, or why, then maybe they're not in a fit state of mind to actually be able to vote. The alternative is they knew exactly what they were voting for and did it anyway. I prefer the latter explanation.
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Dec 31, 2016 13:17
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BarbarianElephant posted:This, to me, says more about voters than Hillary. She's not Ms Charisma. But why should the ability to lead the free world be dependent on an ability to wink and smirk and smarm? She's competent, rational. Trump is incompetent, unbalanced. Case closed. And you, friend, completely miss the point. Elections are all about charisma. Bureaucrats don't need charm, but politicians absolutely do. If you want to win an election, you as a person have to be able to motivate people (not just point to the opposition and scream "those guys suck!" ad naseum). If you just want to run the government, that's not a requirement. Hillary should have stayed content in her ambitions as a good Secretary of State and nothing more. Think about the great Presidential moments from history: Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, FDR's Pearl Harbor address, JFK's 'service to the country' speech, Reagan's Morning in America slogans. These all derive from charisma, not bureaucratic skill. Hillary is utterly incapable of any of that. e: Thinking that elections boil down to rational vs irrational candidate choices is completely and utterly backwards and that line of liberal-centrist logic is what cost the Democrats the election. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of what elections are about, it's Elections 101 class stuff and Hillary and the Democrats flunked it. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 13:51
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Yeah. Assuming people are irrational, overly emotional and possibly idiots is always a better bet than assuming they're smart and make sensible decisions based on reasoning and facts.
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Dec 31, 2016 14:01
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!