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PneumonicBook
Sep 26, 2007

Do you like our owl?





Ultra Carp

shovelbum posted:

I would've thought as a giant navy the US could build really specialized ships instead of multipurpose ones

Thats the problem, they want ASW/AAW/Surface warfare on every platform. If you build to that, build appropriately. The failing of the LCS is that the Navy refused to downgrade the ships capability. The frigates will have cost overrun like every other new class of ship but at least itll be capable.

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lightpole
Jun 4, 2004


MSC civmars are being restricted to ship in all ports by MSC command due to health concerns. This is despite the fact that Navy and contractors are currently free to come and go. The order did not give civmars time to go home and collect gear or even move their cars, resulting in them being towed.

stinkypete
Nov 27, 2007
wow

We can not get on base without a mask. I think it is a good idea.

US Berder Patrol
Jul 11, 2006

I joined the Navy and all I got was this hideous paunch.


Kneejerk reactions 60 days too late to do any good? Doesn't sound like my navy

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)

Taco Defender

lightpole posted:

MSC civmars are being restricted to ship in all ports by MSC command due to health concerns. This is despite the fact that Navy and contractors are currently free to come and go. The order did not give civmars time to go home and collect gear or even move their cars, resulting in them being towed.

Are they actually towing cars? I realize the Civmars don't really know because they're stuck on the ship.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

lightpole posted:

MSC civmars are being restricted to ship in all ports by MSC command due to health concerns. This is despite the fact that Navy and contractors are currently free to come and go. The order did not give civmars time to go home and collect gear or even move their cars, resulting in them being towed.

You can't meaningfully isolate people on an msc ship, everyone's coming and going constantly and also the civmars work year round, it's not like a container ship or tanker wtf are they doing

lightpole
Jun 4, 2004


https://news.usni.org/2020/04/30/ci...19-restrictions

MSC doesnt control the Navy or the contractors. Of course, US flag in a US port, they can quit any time.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

lightpole posted:

https://news.usni.org/2020/04/30/ci...19-restrictions

MSC doesnt control the Navy or the contractors. Of course, US flag in a US port, they can quit any time.

Nothing like a nice split command structure hell yeah

LingcodKilla
Dec 28, 2002

I ate too much crab and transformed into this.


Your contractor and mil homies should have helped out with the car and clothing thing. Stupid order though but still help your brothers out.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES

Exciting Lemon

lightpole posted:

https://news.usni.org/2020/04/30/ci...19-restrictions

MSC doesnt control the Navy or the contractors. Of course, US flag in a US port, they can quit any time.

Love to be told my options are risk a deadly virus or risk being unemployed going into the great depression 2: orange boogaloo.

lightpole
Jun 4, 2004


LingcodKilla posted:

Your contractor and mil homies should have helped out with the car and clothing thing. Stupid order though but still help your brothers out.

It's the implementation more than anything. Most of those ROS guys should be prepared for activation of some sort but they would have warning beforehand and would be able to take care of this stuff. Only restricting a portion of ships crew is just stupid, even if I can understand his reasoning. The inability to work across departments and coordinate in a peacetime epidemic doesnt bode well in the event of a large scale conflict requiring their activation.

MSC also sounds more reluctant to relieve than normal so people are getting stuck out there for an extended period. The ability to quit off a ship in a US port is a huge right we have as it allowed sailors to escape terrible conditions. Half a ships complement quitting is not a small deal and usually makes companies sit up and take notice since manning is not always easy, especially for the more experienced positions.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

lightpole posted:

The inability to work across departments and coordinate in a peacetime epidemic doesnt bode well in the event of a large scale conflict requiring their activation.

Yeah a million times this at every level of the pandemic response lol

Nick Soapdish
Apr 27, 2008



https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/...6745188357?s=19

Someone at the USNI didn't think this one through. Where were our frogmen to protect the vessel?

Nick Soapdish
Apr 27, 2008



https://twitter.com/USNavyEurope/st...3546917890?s=20

Powerful "graphic design is my passion" from the MCs who made this

LingcodKilla
Dec 28, 2002

I ate too much crab and transformed into this.


What in loving tarnation.






(We are the empire)

FrozenVent
May 1, 2009

The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Nick Soapdish posted:

https://twitter.com/USNavyEurope/st...3546917890?s=20

Powerful "graphic design is my passion" from the MCs who made this

The cringe is strong with this one.

King of Bees
Dec 28, 2012


Gravy Boat 2k

Nick Soapdish posted:

https://twitter.com/USNavyEurope/st...3546917890?s=20

Powerful "graphic design is my passion" from the MCs who made this

Lol

Ron Jeremy
Apr 4, 2008

D&D FUCKING SUCKS, SIGNED WEEPING WOUND



Look you want nuclear powered ships? This is the price you have to pay for nuclear power.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005


Nick Soapdish posted:

https://twitter.com/USNavyEurope/st...3546917890?s=20

Powerful "graphic design is my passion" from the MCs who made this

Someone's got you covered, apparently.

https://twitter.com/candylure/statu...9994638339?s=20

AreWeDrunkYet
Jul 8, 2006

I am a strawman spewing, non listening, logic challenged douchebag supreme trolling TFR. Ignore me.

mlmp08 posted:

Post it in the navy thread, coward

PookBear posted:

look at how much poo poo our navy slams into, now imagine its a drone programmed by a government contractor that couldn't get hired by google

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Got directed here after an off the cuff remark about an unmanned navy.

Clearly off the mark there ... what is the challenge exactly? Unmanned doesn't mean autonomous, same way airborne drones are driven out of a trailer in Nevada. It seems like a staggered launch of a bunch of small drone boats out of Bahrain or Okinawa or wherever that can take a lap of the area then come back for maintenance by humans on land would be cheaper to maintain and provide better coverage than a bunch of big boats filled with humans. And if things get exciting they can fire off some tomahawks or airborne drones.

AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 09:18 on May 7, 2020

ManMythLegend
Aug 18, 2003

I don't believe in anything, I'm just here for the violence.


AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Got directed here after an off the cuff remark about an unmanned navy.

Clearly off the mark there ... what is the challenge exactly? Unmanned doesn't mean autonomous, same way airborne drones are driven out of a trailer in Nevada. It seems like a staggered launch of a bunch of small drone boats out of Bahrain or Okinawa or wherever that can take a lap of the area then come back for maintenance by humans on land would be cheaper to maintain and provide better coverage than a bunch of big boats filled with humans. And if things get exciting they can fire off some tomahawks or airborne drones.

Flyboys don't want to hear it, but the maritime domain is orders of magnitude more complex than the air domain. Here is a non-exhaustive list of reasons why:
1. Air traffic is much more tightly controlled by an interlocking network of controllers that document and track most aircraft. That doesn't exist at sea.
2. Can't deconflict traffic using altitude.
3. Waterspace safe for maneuvering (based on shoals, shoreline, underwater obstructions) is more limited then the sky.
4. The seafloor is a dynamic environment which affects number 3.
5. Sensor performance on the ocean's surface is orders of magnitude worse than those above the marine layer in aircraft degrading I/O sources for USVs.
6. Unlike aircraft the vast, vast majority of watercraft are barely functional and crewed by people with only a bare minimum of understanding of what they're doing.
7. Maneuvering to avoid weather is very different thing at sea then in the air.
8. Air pirates haven't become a thing yet, so Global Hawks don't have to worry about someone boarding them and tampering with/sabotaging/stealing equipment.
etc

That said, USVs do have a place in the near future fleet, and tethering them to other manned surface platforms to extend weapons and sensor coverage is definitely going to happen very soon but it is going to be a very, very, very, very long time before the fleet is run from conex boxes on the pier in Norfolk.

FrozenVent
May 1, 2009

The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Automated cargo ships have been JUST AROUND THE CORNER for fifteen years now.

Cargo ships don’t shoot at people, almost never get shot at, and their damage control methodology is known as “insurance”.

And yet they still have at least a dozen highly paid, hard to find dumbasses onboard to make sure the cargo box doesn’t hit anything and the machinery box doesn’t fill with smoke and water.

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)

Taco Defender

I think there's a cost issue as well. The "advantage" of surface is the price to operate and low-risk of failure. We're taught as Surface Warfare Officers (especially if you're not on a Ballistic Missile Defense-capable destroyer) that, whenever money gets tight, buckle up--without steady cash injections, planes fall and submarines exceed that key dive/surface ratio of 1:1, but surface ships float and our costs (training, quality retention) get kicked down the road until the Ensigns you don't train become Captains and Department Heads, and Admiral's going to be retired by then. We have trouble automating the complex engineering plans onboard ships with people around to walk by and notice that oil drip--forget driving the thing.

This is true in shipping to. If it was expensive and light, you'd fly it where it's going. You picked transoceanic because it's bulk! So when you take the risk of having an entire cargo vessel stranded in the middle of ocean without an affordable way to get maintenance personnel onboard or, even worse, a loss without a captain to throw under the bus, there's a lot of reasons for the maritime industry to feign interest that don't add up once the actuaries get involved. Especially since paying employees can be a difficult to enforce matter under certain flags.

Edit: That said, perhaps ships were one of the first type of vehicles to go unmanned. After all, we used to maintain a fleet of Light ships that would serve as floating light houses, but now we have lighted buoys so those are pretty rare. If a drone is a plane made smaller because you don't have to put a person in it, then a buoy is the ship equivalent. There are unmanned light ships run by the German Navy that, I presume, driven or towed to a position and anchored.

piL fucked around with this message at 16:20 on May 7, 2020

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

Strictly speaking a mine is an unmanned, autonomously-operated war vessel and so is a torpedo. But there's a huge difference between that and an entire FFG-sized robot warship and if the Internet of poo poo has taught us anything just because you can automate doesn't mean you should.

Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 15:43 on May 7, 2020

Red Crown
Oct 20, 2008

Pretend my finger's a knife.

Nick Soapdish posted:

https://twitter.com/USNavyEurope/st...3546917890?s=20

Powerful "graphic design is my passion" from the MCs who made this

One of the senior O-6s at my command wears an Imperial patch and I have to admit I respect that he acknowledges we're the Empire and has embraced the power of the dark side.

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)

Taco Defender

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Strictly speaking a mine is an unmanned, autonomously-operated war vessel and so is a torpedo.

Most of the time.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005


AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Got directed here after an off the cuff remark about an unmanned navy.

Clearly off the mark there ... what is the challenge exactly? Unmanned doesn't mean autonomous, same way airborne drones are driven out of a trailer in Nevada. It seems like a staggered launch of a bunch of small drone boats out of Bahrain or Okinawa or wherever that can take a lap of the area then come back for maintenance by humans on land would be cheaper to maintain and provide better coverage than a bunch of big boats filled with humans. And if things get exciting they can fire off some tomahawks or airborne drones.

In general, connectivity is not a given at sea. There are too many weather phenomena which disrupt/degrade SATCOM, and those issues just get compounded the longer and further you're out to sea. As such, each vehicle would require a level of autonomy even if it is something as simple as "go to coordinate x,y,z in the event of loss of connectivity" and that brings up a whole host of issues for long range craft (which 90% of the Navy is). The general concept of unmanned, shore-driven vehicles is a more realistic goal for the Coast Guard and the Navy's smaller brown water side than for the Navy as a whole.


I sat in on a very interesting presentation on UUS's a couple years ago whose main thesis was that all UUS's (including mines, torpedoes, UUV's, etc.) regardless of mission should be brought under a collective paradigm to help streamline development and CONOPS.

AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 16:22 on May 7, 2020

Ron Jeremy
Apr 4, 2008

D&D FUCKING SUCKS, SIGNED WEEPING WOUND



ManMythLegend posted:

the vast, vast majority of watercraft are barely functional and crewed by people with only a bare minimum of understanding of what they're doing..

The jokes write themselves folks.

CMD598
Apr 11, 2013


ManMythLegend posted:

6. Unlike aircraft the vast, vast majority of watercraft are barely functional and crewed by people with only a bare minimum of understanding of what they're doing.

Lol, but for maintenance.

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless


ManMythLegend posted:

Flyboys don't want to hear it, but the maritime domain is orders of magnitude more complex than the air domain. Here is a non-exhaustive list of reasons why:
1. Air traffic is much more tightly controlled by an interlocking network of controllers that document and track most aircraft. That doesn't exist at sea.
2. Can't deconflict traffic using altitude.
3. Waterspace safe for maneuvering (based on shoals, shoreline, underwater obstructions) is more limited then the sky.
4. The seafloor is a dynamic environment which affects number 3.
5. Sensor performance on the ocean's surface is orders of magnitude worse than those above the marine layer in aircraft degrading I/O sources for USVs.
6. Unlike aircraft the vast, vast majority of watercraft are barely functional and crewed by people with only a bare minimum of understanding of what they're doing.
7. Maneuvering to avoid weather is very different thing at sea then in the air.
8. Air pirates haven't become a thing yet, so Global Hawks don't have to worry about someone boarding them and tampering with/sabotaging/stealing equipment.
etc

That said, USVs do have a place in the near future fleet, and tethering them to other manned surface platforms to extend weapons and sensor coverage is definitely going to happen very soon but it is going to be a very, very, very, very long time before the fleet is run from conex boxes on the pier in Norfolk.

You've also got another order of magnitude in the time that they're expected to be operating on a mission. Aircraft are airborne for a matter of hours before returning to base for any maintenance and upkeep they need, but ships need to be out for days or weeks at a time. Most current droneboats operate more like aircraft, where they're deployed for a specific purpose like towing targets and then recovered relatively soon afterwards. But matching what a larger warship does in terms of range and versatility is a much taller order. I dunno, to this flyboy it just seems like a very different problem.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES

Exciting Lemon

These are all positives! What i'm seeing here is that I could swing an easy $100M in contract R&D money for this brilliant idea.

Gotta disrupt the market!

lightpole
Jun 4, 2004


Half the crew on the Leroy Gruman tested positive for corona. Civmars are still restricted to ship. MSC is going to run into manning problems beyond what they already have if they keep this up.

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)

Taco Defender


Hey Sailor, going my way to the library?

I'm participating in discussion through a military society and utilizing new technologies for learning (FITREP bullet! Posting history: Significant Problems )

In all seriousness this is great and I was worried the good work that was getting started was going to disappear through all of this noise and gloom. I'm glad we're still working it.

Edit: The TLDR is that participation in university education and driving professional development of Sailors have formally been made part of Fitness Reporting criteria. No doubt much of it will result in lip service, but it does provide top cover for those who actually want to improve and help others.

piL fucked around with this message at 00:44 on May 8, 2020

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

lightpole posted:

Half the crew on the Leroy Gruman tested positive for corona. Civmars are still restricted to ship. MSC is going to run into manning problems beyond what they already have if they keep this up.

Why do they even have so many people coming and going on msc ships instead of loading it up for insert next war here and sending it to sit on the hook

lightpole
Jun 4, 2004


shovelbum posted:

Why do they even have so many people coming and going on msc ships instead of loading it up for insert next war here and sending it to sit on the hook

That ones in drydock in Boston so it's a little more understandable but the logic behind everything is still hosed.

King of Bees
Dec 28, 2012


Gravy Boat 2k

Just had to get a barracks check out sheet signed off. I haven't lived in a barracks for 19 years. Next week I'll renew my cac for two more weeks. At the end of the two weeks I'll get my magic blue ID.

LingcodKilla
Dec 28, 2002

I ate too much crab and transformed into this.


King of Bees posted:

Just had to get a barracks check out sheet signed off. I haven't lived in a barracks for 19 years. Next week I'll renew my cac for two more weeks. At the end of the two weeks I'll get my magic blue ID.

sweet

what's next?

King of Bees
Dec 28, 2012


Gravy Boat 2k

Fishing

Hekk
Oct 12, 2012

'smeper fi


King of Bees posted:

Just had to get a barracks check out sheet signed off. I haven't lived in a barracks for 19 years. Next week I'll renew my cac for two more weeks. At the end of the two weeks I'll get my magic blue ID.

I am not far behind you. Looking to be done sometime in November. It’s a weird feeling knowing I am so close.

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King of Bees
Dec 28, 2012


Gravy Boat 2k

And weed

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