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Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


despite my best efforts, i always end up with laura bailey boss

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Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD


Vikar Jerome posted:

nah veni is right. videos games and their remakes are in a weird place, some of the remakes are good and some are whats been discussed on the last few pages, then theres remasters and enhanced remasters and the original is the masterpiece everyone still remembers it was. if full BC and re-releases were the norm, or the option to include the original in the remake or a modern easy access to it, poo poo wouldnt be a problem. older graphics, lower polygon counts dont matter in the end, nintendo keep telling you this but you wont listen.

you all dismiss this stuff because you enjoyed ff7r too much because you enjoy basking in the nostalgia of your fading youth. its not to say the remakes arent good, its just the original experience is the original experience you remember for a reason and people constantly crying for remakes because brains have been melted over the years by disgust of lower polygons and frame rates and resolutions.

No weíre saying Veniís analogy doesnít work just on like a mechanical level.

A Bluepoint remake of a game is not a cover of the game by a different ďbandĒ.

Iím someone who has loved SotC since the first goddamn day it was released and I simply donít get what is ďlost in translationĒ. Iím MORE immersed in this world now because I can see what the gently caress is going on.

Also the Wander model thing I also noticed, but a lifetime of Ocarina of Time replays have taught me to see video game characters as platonic ideals of manhood or boyhood instead of as real characters with real ages, and I felt a more humanized and less cartoony Wander improves the story, in that it feels more like a fable and less like a bedtime story.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


I liked this guy's thoughts on the Unreal V video, and now he's covering Cerny's SSD talk (though he doesn't actually get very far in part 1). Some of his interjections are a bit redundant, but he's insightful overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erxUR9SI4F0

Imhotep
Nov 16, 2009






Quantum of Phallus posted:

Just that it was so mind blowingly stupid and it really puts into perspective how generally chill the chat in here is.

Srsly, Iíve made this observation several times in this thread, and usually because Iíd go to YouTube and somehow end up watching some wasteman talk about like, exactly what you said, how awful TLoU2 is, because theyíre pretty clearly just bigots, and also despite having not played it and then seeing how awful every comment is is pretty hosed and Iím pretty grateful for this thread. I probably wouldnít have played a lot of games that are now some of my favorites because of recommendations and just general discussion which lead to me following games more closely. But yeah itís rough out there, but I think itís generally getting better.

Kilometers Davis
Jul 9, 2007

They begin again



The Beatles are extremely good.

Kilometers Davis
Jul 9, 2007

They begin again



Iím bored with every big new release game Iíve played lately so I might actually end up playing SotC this summer ayyyy.

JollyBoyJohn
Feb 13, 2019



I've accidentally sat and played 2 hours of Zone of the Enders 2 as a palate cleanser from the ape

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Escobarbarian posted:

This is a very bad analogy

Yeah, while music production has generally gotten better and cheaper, there's no real point of obsolescence in music (at least, not yet)

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD


Quantum of Phallus posted:

So there's now a weird chud backlash against TLOU2

Imhotep posted:

Srsly, Iíve made this observation several times in this thread, and usually because Iíd go to YouTube and somehow end up watching some wasteman talk about like, exactly what you said, how awful TLoU2 is,

Look if youíre gonna openly discuss spoiler content about new characters from The Last of Us 2, or discuss political ideologies relating to spoilers for the Last of Us 2 (which both put into your posts) can you just edit those out of your posts and talk about how much you like the PS4 thread and then take your spoiler chat to the spoiler thread, pretty pretty please, cool fam?

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011



Though some people like certain song covers better than the original thatís not some impossible thing

Vikar Jerome
Nov 26, 2013

I believe Emmanuelle is shit, though Emmanuelle 2, Emmanuelle '77 and Goodbye, Emmanuelle may be very good movies.

Bust Rodd posted:

Look if youíre gonna openly discuss spoiler content about new characters from The Last of Us 2, or discuss political ideologies relating to spoilers for the Last of Us 2 (which both put into your posts) can you just edit those out of your posts and talk about how much you like the PS4 thread and then take your spoiler chat to the spoiler thread, pretty pretty please, cool fam?

its not really a spoiler tho is it, chill dude. dont wanna help continue another tlou2 derail but i've avoided all spoilers so far and outside of the first 3 trailers, the only ones i've seen, i dont think anyone spoiled anything? i just assumed the buff female mentioned was the one from the 2nd trailer whom we know nothing about. well i guess the spoiler thread does but lets keep it that way.

bows1
May 16, 2004

Chill, whale, chill


Beatles are great.

Don't engage with people about Games outside of SA. I don't even have any friends that play games besides Fifa and Animal Crossing.

I JUST learned about the ~really late game Sekiro~ There is a SECOND owl fight in Hirata, and a second Hirata bell. Definitely doing that on this run through

Imhotep
Nov 16, 2009






Yeah to be clear I was just using that as an example, the video I saw didnít have any spoilers, unless the fact that thereís a trans person in the game is a spoiler, but I donít know how they identify and I assume the videos donít either. The character is in the very first trailer (edit- or second I guess) for TLoU2, but yeah I honestly didnít mean to bring it up, I assumed the hysteria surrounding the leaks had died down. But does that game actually come out in 5 days? I just googled TLoU2 and thereís a countdown timer with 5 days left.

Edit: cause if it does, I might get it and play it despite failing to beat the first game on my recent attempt at playing through it again, I suck at stealth and Iím only like an hour into the actual bits with Ďzombiesí and canít sneak past them, but the trailers for the new game made it look pretty smooth and like a huge improvement over the usual Naught Dog stuff, plus I enjoyed the story and I watched the letís play with Troy Baker and Nolan North so I know the story.

bows1 posted:

.

I JUST learned about the ~really late game Sekiro~ There is a SECOND owl fight in Hirata, and a second Hirata bell. Definitely doing that on this run through

This was maybe the hardest fight in the game for me, aside from another late game boss. Iím assuming youíve done basically everything at Fountainhead? If so you should be able to fight the boss Iím talking about, curious how you do against it. I actually havenít even beat that boss legitimately, despite having just beaten the game on NG+5, I cheesed it early on just to see if it was possible and just got used to skipping it, but I might do that right now.

Imhotep fucked around with this message at 15:22 on May 23, 2020

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003

and god is on your side
dividing sparrows from the nightingales

veni veni veni posted:

I picked up SR2 after playing 3 and it was one of those things where I guess you had to be there because I didn't think it was very good.

The game is clunky as hell and was even ugly at the time but the sheer amount of content was kind of absurd.

Something like eight or nine customizable properties and a dozen different clothing slots. So many little minigames and systems that it puts a yakuza game to shame. The abilities to rob someone in a store, on the street or in a car are all different mechanics. Anytime you jump from an aircraft you can start a minigame to land on a target, and if you hit the dead-center you unlock no fall damage. There's a secret man-on-the-street reporter companion you can unlock by mugging 50 random people. There's a katana duel mode that's used exactly once to fight a boss, but if you find a katana at any worth point you can challenge any random katana-wielding gang member you see to an impromptu duel at any time. There's the secret mall, a secret underground science facility and there's a completely-missable secret set of missions that acts as an epilogue to the first game. Every VA will sing along to Take On Me in the car if you leave them in it long enough, but each had a second individual song they would sing along to too. There are entire lists of assassination/car theft missions tucked away on your phone somewhere that I never even noticed in my first playthrough because there's so much to do, but even those had little narrative flourishes and twists (one target I can remember is hiding at a trailer park, so to draw him out you had to wear a wifebeater and stand around drinking 40s before he would appear).

I'd say less than 1/3 of this made it's way to SR3, and I don't think any open world game since has come close in terms of sheer content. Maaaaybe GTA online, but that's after eight years and everything fun in that game is behind a massive wall of money/grind so it's not really comparable.

Inspector Hound
Jul 14, 2003



Wolfsheim posted:

The game is clunky as hell and was even ugly at the time but the sheer amount of content was kind of absurd.

Something like eight or nine customizable properties and a dozen different clothing slots. So many little minigames and systems that it puts a yakuza game to shame. The abilities to rob someone in a store, on the street or in a car are all different mechanics. Anytime you jump from an aircraft you can start a minigame to land on a target, and if you hit the dead-center you unlock no fall damage. There's a secret man-on-the-street reporter companion you can unlock by mugging 50 random people. There's a katana duel mode that's used exactly once to fight a boss, but if you find a katana at any worth point you can challenge any random katana-wielding gang member you see to an impromptu duel at any time. There's the secret mall, a secret underground science facility and there's a completely-missable secret set of missions that acts as an epilogue to the first game. Every VA will sing along to Take On Me in the car if you leave them in it long enough, but each had a second individual song they would sing along to too. There are entire lists of assassination/car theft missions tucked away on your phone somewhere that I never even noticed in my first playthrough because there's so much to do, but even those had little narrative flourishes and twists (one target I can remember is hiding at a trailer park, so to draw him out you had to wear a wifebeater and stand around drinking 40s before he would appear).

I'd say less than 1/3 of this made it's way to SR3, and I don't think any open world game since has come close in terms of sheer content. Maaaaybe GTA online, but that's after eight years and everything fun in that game is behind a massive wall of money/grind so it's not really comparable.

Well now this sounds awesome

Kilometers Davis
Jul 9, 2007

They begin again



SR 2, 3 and 4 (mostly 2 and 3) are genuine classics that are FIERCELY focused on making sure the player has as much fun as possible in every way while fighting alongside some very compelling characters. Honestly the story and characters have no right to be as good as they are in SR games. Itís an absolute blast.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007


Wolfsheim posted:

Something like eight or nine customizable properties and a dozen different clothing slots. So many little minigames and systems that it puts a yakuza game to shame. The abilities to rob someone in a store, on the street or in a car are all different mechanics. Anytime you jump from an aircraft you can start a minigame to land on a target, and if you hit the dead-center you unlock no fall damage. There's a secret man-on-the-street reporter companion you can unlock by mugging 50 random people. There's a katana duel mode that's used exactly once to fight a boss, but if you find a katana at any worth point you can challenge any random katana-wielding gang member you see to an impromptu duel at any time. There's the secret mall, a secret underground science facility and there's a completely-missable secret set of missions that acts as an epilogue to the first game. Every VA will sing along to Take On Me in the car if you leave them in it long enough, but each had a second individual song they would sing along to too. There are entire lists of assassination/car theft missions tucked away on your phone somewhere that I never even noticed in my first playthrough because there's so much to do, but even those had little narrative flourishes and twists (one target I can remember is hiding at a trailer park, so to draw him out you had to wear a wifebeater and stand around drinking 40s before he would appear).

i beat this game five times and excuse me, what the gently caress

Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

bok bok bok





College Slice

Imhotep posted:

Yeah to be clear I was just using that as an example, the video I saw didnít have any spoilers, unless the fact that thereís a trans person in the game is a spoiler, but I donít know how they identify and I assume the videos donít either. The character is in the very first trailer (edit- or second I guess) for TLoU2, but yeah I honestly didnít mean to bring it up, I assumed the hysteria surrounding the leaks had died down. But does that game actually come out in 5 days? I just googled TLoU2 and thereís a countdown timer with 5 days left.

Edit: cause if it does, I might get it and play it despite failing to beat the first game on my recent attempt at playing through it again, I suck at stealth and Iím only like an hour into the actual bits with Ďzombiesí and canít sneak past them, but the trailers for the new game made it look pretty smooth and like a huge improvement over the usual Naught Dog stuff, plus I enjoyed the story and I watched the letís play with Troy Baker and Nolan North so I know the story.

Sheís not trans and sheís literally in the first trailer for the game, so thatís not a spoiler either. (Itís the girl whoís getting strung up and chokes someone out with her beefy legs.)

bows1
May 16, 2004

Chill, whale, chill


Imhotep posted:



This was maybe the hardest fight in the game for me, aside from another late game boss. Iím assuming youíve done basically everything at Fountainhead? If so you should be able to fight the boss Iím talking about, curious how you do against it. I actually havenít even beat that boss legitimately, despite having just beaten the game on NG+5, I cheesed it early on just to see if it was possible and just got used to skipping it, but I might do that right now.

Spoilers ~~

I have done half of Fountainhead, no Carp or Dragon yet. I need to go do all the eavesdropping before its too late. I have 6 or 7 prayer bead bracelets and all the attack power up past True Corrupted Monk; so I should be close

Quantum of Phallus
Dec 27, 2010



Saying a game has a buff female character is not a spoiler unless your brain is broken.

I'm the very person who hates the TLOU2 story discussion

gey muckle mowser
Aug 5, 2003

Do you know anything about...
witches?





Buglord

Finished FF7R last night, awesome game. Maybe my favorite combat system in any modern RPG, itís so frantic and fun, hard enough to be really engaging while not hard enough to be frustrating. Well except for one fight in chapter 16 or 17 where a pack of dogs kept tearing Tifa/Aerith to shreds, I did it like 6 times before I caved and dropped the difficulty down to easy. I donít know why those random dogs were harder than any boss for me.

On to finally play Sekiro next

Imhotep
Nov 16, 2009






bows1 posted:

Spoilers ~~

I have done half of Fountainhead, no Carp or Dragon yet. I need to go do all the eavesdropping before its too late. I have 6 or 7 prayer bead bracelets and all the attack power up past True Corrupted Monk; so I should be close

I believe you can still get attack power from the boss Iím talking about, and the other Hirata Estate fight you mentioned, but cool, you should definitely try that boss, Iím pretty sure beating the Fountainhead boss, the dragon, is required before you can fight it.

naM sdrawkcaB
Feb 17, 2011



So I'm on the final part of Control, everything is red, can't see poo poo and I keep getting killed by those invisible hiss bastards. How long should this fight take? It seems never ending.

DrNutt
Apr 12, 2007

*not a real doctor




Quantum of Phallus posted:

Saying a game has a buff female character is not a spoiler unless your brain is broken.

I'm the very person who hates the TLOU2 story discussion

But what if it turns out she's also a boat???

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

We've never been into punk. It was too traditional.


Bust Rodd posted:

No weíre saying Veniís analogy doesnít work just on like a mechanical level.

A Bluepoint remake of a game is not a cover of the game by a different ďbandĒ.

Iím someone who has loved SotC since the first goddamn day it was released and I simply donít get what is ďlost in translationĒ. Iím MORE immersed in this world now because I can see what the gently caress is going on.

Also the Wander model thing I also noticed, but a lifetime of Ocarina of Time replays have taught me to see video game characters as platonic ideals of manhood or boyhood instead of as real characters with real ages, and I felt a more humanized and less cartoony Wander improves the story, in that it feels more like a fable and less like a bedtime story.

You guys are missing the forest for the trees. The point of what I said wasn't be dismissive of the SOTC remake. I even said in the previous post I'd start there, and for the most part it's the best way to play the game. It certainly wasn't a dig on the quality of the remake.

The point is that it's a distinctly gamer thing to love a game and then have no interest in like, the actual game. SOTC remake, no matter how good it is, is in fact akin to a cover album because none of the game's original creators had any hand in it, or were even consulted about it. So the final result is different than if it was a team ico game made in 2018 (insert hilarious frame rate meme here). The PS3 version is more akin to a remaster since it only really messed with performance, while the PS4 version has new assets/lighting/redesigns added by people that had nothing to do with the original and that does fundamentally change the overall look and feel of it to some degree, even if it's relatively minor. If you look at it side by side next to The Last Guardian, it's pretty clear Uedas style and Bluepoint's take on it don't line up perfectly. Which is fine. But it's also weird to me that someone would consider themselves such a fan of it and make it a point to say they don't care about the original.

And I don't see how the Beatles analogy is bad. Pop songwriting has only changed so much over the years, while technology has had a huge impact on production and the overall sound of music. You could easily "clean up" a lot of songs from the 60's and 70's by rerecording them using modern production techniques and instruments, but not without the cost of losing some of the creators intent and fundamentally changing it. I don't see what makes games any different. It might be a great cover album but in the end it is still a cover album.

I even think it's fine if someone only wants to play the new version, but it doesn't make the original irrelevant.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003

and god is on your side
dividing sparrows from the nightingales

Oxxidation posted:

i beat this game five times and excuse me, what the gently caress

I discovered this on a completely fresh save by accident. Just tooling around the north part of the map, killed a ronin and took his weapon, then I was just walking through a random parking lot when five of them drew their katanas and started slowly advancing on me. Admittedly it's a pretty basic duel system that's barely more complicated than the normal melee mode (it's like an easier version of the boss fight from the end of the ronin questline) but it was a nice surprise.

So if you're looking for a Kurosawa fix before that ghost game comes out in a couple months consider playing Saints Row 2

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




veni veni veni posted:

And I don't see how the Beatles analogy is bad. Pop songwriting has only changed so much over the years, while technology has had a huge impact on production and the overall sound of music. You could easily "clean up" a lot of songs from the 60's and 70's by rerecording them using modern production techniques and instruments, but not without the cost of losing some of the creators intent and fundamentally changing it

Because that's just not how music works. Almost literally nobody likes music for its production values. One person with an acoustic guitar can sell just as many records as Katy Perry or Imagine Dragons.

Besides that, there's no equivalency in the way things have evolved. It's extremely rare to be successful without being modern in gaming; it's the opposite in music, where it's extremely rare to be successful just by being modern. Like, nobody listened to Sebadoh and said "I'd like this if it were less lo-fi" and nobody is begging for someone to take pop songs and "fix" them.

Sure you get stuff like Arab Strap deconstructing "You Shook Me All Night Long" or Bedhead redeeming Cher's "Believe" by playing the song with telephone beeps, but those are one offs, not reasons for existing.

homeless snail
Mar 14, 2007



The comparison to the really questionable stereo Beatles remasters was sitting right there, imo would have been a better analogy

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

We've never been into punk. It was too traditional.


precision posted:

Because that's just not how music works. Almost literally nobody likes music for its production values. One person with an acoustic guitar can sell just as many records as Katy Perry or Imagine Dragons.

Besides that, there's no equivalency in the way things have evolved. It's extremely rare to be successful without being modern in gaming; it's the opposite in music, where it's extremely rare to be successful just by being modern. Like, nobody listened to Sebadoh and said "I'd like this if it were less lo-fi" and nobody is begging for someone to take pop songs and "fix" them.

Sure you get stuff like Arab Strap deconstructing "You Shook Me All Night Long" or Bedhead redeeming Cher's "Believe" by playing the song with telephone beeps, but those are one offs, not reasons for existing.

Games aren't purely technology driven either though. Look at how people react to sprites from old games redrawn in vector art most of the time. It looks more modern but usually looks terrible and most people hate it. Obviously SOTC isn't a fail in that sense, but there is more to games than just the tech behind them.

homeless snail posted:

The comparison to the really questionable stereo Beatles remasters was sitting right there, imo would have been a better analogy

Maybe, but we are talking about a different creation by different people here.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




I guess I'm not sure what your point is then, if both versions of SOTC are different creations entirely (which I think everyone would agree with) then why's it strange to prefer one or the other?

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Sorry, I don't remember the game, but there was another remaster this gen that totally revamped the lighting system with something more modern, but it completely changed the atmosphere in some places, and made nights pitch dark. There are a lot of enhancements that may seem like obvious improvements that without sufficient care can actually be detrimental to the experience.

Also makes me think of those high res texture packs to old games, that sound great on paper but often look like poo poo. And not just because the artists aren't as good. I think blurry textures to an extent act to mask the sharpness of low poly models, whilst crisp ones can accentuate it (AI generated upscales are an interesting test of this).

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Like, I might disagree with someone who thinks the Beatles did the best version of "Twist and Shout" (the best version is obviously the Shangri-Las) but I know that it's a matter of pure taste that can't be argued

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


precision posted:

I guess I'm not sure what your point is then, if both versions of SOTC are different creations entirely (which I think everyone would agree with) then why's it strange to prefer one or the other?

I think the discussion was mostly about outright dismissing the old versions since they're so obviously inferior.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD


veni veni veni posted:

The point is that it's a distinctly gamer thing to love a game and then have no interest in like, the actual game. SOTC remake, no matter how good it is, is in fact akin to a cover album because none of the game's original creators had any hand in it, or were even consulted about it. So the final result is different than if it was a team ico game made in 2018 (insert hilarious frame rate meme here). The PS3 version is more akin to a remaster since it only really messed with performance, while the PS4 version has new assets/lighting/redesigns added by people that had nothing to do with the original and that does fundamentally change the overall look and feel of it to some degree, even if it's relatively minor. If you look at it side by side next to The Last Guardian, it's pretty clear Uedas style and Bluepoint's take on it don't line up perfectly. Which is fine. But it's also weird to me that someone would consider themselves such a fan of it and make it a point to say they don't care about the original.

I'm not trying to divebomb you but can you maybe provide a visual example of how you believe the bluepoint remake lacks the original artistic vision? Like what visual fidelity compromise was made on the PS2 that you feel like encapsulates the mood/atmosphere of the game that isn't present in the remake? Does the improved draw distance or higher definition texture make the game less mysterious and unknowable because you can literally see it more clearly?

I just feel like your saying you watched a movie with a pair of smudgy glasses, and then rewatched the same movie but with clean glasses, and preferred it the first time around.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Rinkles posted:

I think the discussion was mostly about outright dismissing the old versions since they're so obviously inferior.

Ohhhh. Well that I obviously agree with

I think I thought VVV was saying literally the opposite of what they actually were

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Bust Rodd posted:

I just feel like your saying you watched a movie with a pair of smudgy glasses, and then rewatched the same movie but with clean glasses, and preferred it the first time around.

The SOTC remake isn't just an HD remaster though. You or I might find the differences minor, but it's not fair to say the original is just "the worse version of the thing"

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

We've never been into punk. It was too traditional.


My original post was in response to someone who said they'd never bother checking out the original since the remake is superior or whatever. People seem to want to take it as some sort of slight on the remaster when I feel like I've gone out of my way in every post to make sure people know that wasn't my point.

Rinkles posted:

I think the discussion was mostly about outright dismissing the old versions since they're so obviously inferior.

yes. thank you.

Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

bok bok bok





College Slice

Bust Rodd posted:

I'm not trying to divebomb you but can you maybe provide a visual example of how you believe the bluepoint remake lacks the original artistic vision? Like what visual fidelity compromise was made on the PS2 that you feel like encapsulates the mood/atmosphere of the game that isn't present in the remake? Does the improved draw distance or higher definition texture make the game less mysterious and unknowable because you can literally see it more clearly?

I just feel like your saying you watched a movie with a pair of smudgy glasses, and then rewatched the same movie but with clean glasses, and preferred it the first time around.

At least field part of this is that the original game made extremely heavy use of bloom lighting, which even the PS3 port dialed back to start with. The PS2 original also pulled off a very ďpainted on the screenĒ art style, which was at least in part taking advantage of the relatively low resolution.

Now, is that really all that important in the long run? No. Is it a notable difference? Yes.

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



Why does Metro Exodus not have a Russian language option

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precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Sakurazuka posted:

Why does Metro Exodus not have a Russian language option



Seriously? Lol

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