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Yardbomb posted:I want to emptyquote this but I'll just say I strongly agree instead, laffo that I should care about our "ally" status with fuckin Pakistan and similar places. You should care about our relationship with Pakistan because they're an unstable state with a sizeable nuclear arsenal with a long running and heated dispute with the second most populous county on Earth. The price of things going bad in Pakistan goes up to tens of millions of innocent people dying in a nuclear inferno, followed by hundreds of millions more dying in the chaos that follows.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:40
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Main Paineframe posted:Oh, absolutely. I'm more targeting my argument at the people who for some reason expect President Obama to pardon Snowden for revealing the NSA spying programs that President Obama already knew about and thought were perfectly fine. Snowden knew full well what he was doing and that he would never again be able to return to the US, but there are far too many supporters who don't seem to understand why the government is not in the business of granting clemency to people who think the government is wrong about things. Yeah but the demands for clemency are more a moral stance standing for the belief that the government is wrong about those things and should admit it (but won't) than a substantive programme. That they won't actually be granted is almost beside the point - of course they won't, and that's the problem the demands are condemning. Snowden is an American hero but will die in a foreign land. That's life.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:40
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Peel posted:Snowden will die in a foreign land. That's life. Not soon enough.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:46
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Sinteres posted:Not soon enough. wishing death on people is uncool
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Jan 19, 2017 18:47
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Sinteres posted:Not soon enough. will you cry every day until he does
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Jan 19, 2017 18:47
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spaceships posted:will you cry every day until he does Will you cry every day until Chelsea Manning is released? Even she thought she should be dead, though I don't. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 19:03
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The death penalty is an inhumane and indefensible system. Eat poo poo.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:08
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Sinteres posted:Will you cry every day until Chelsea Manning is released? Even she thought she should be dead, though I don't. Wow, you're the edgiest edgelord ever. Edgier than, like, a million Hot Topic T-shirts.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:11
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DaveWoo posted:Wow, you're the edgiest edgelord ever. Edgier than, like, a million Hot Topic T-shirts. Lets be fair, not even the edgiest edgelord in this thread. There's real fanatical natsec dorks.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:13
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One of the biggest problems I feel we have on the left is that we've spent so much time (correctly) criticising the numerous failures of American foreign policy that we've lost the perspective to see anything else. This has led to the incorrect assumption by a whole lot of people on the left that we should instead embrace a laissez-faire attitude to foreign policy, which would probably be a disaster. For all of our numerous gently caress-ups and faults, the US growing into the world's only super power is also correlated with a massive global decrease in people (both soldiers and civilians) dying in conflicts and violence. If the US withdraws into isolationism, it's going to leave a massive power vacuum which others are going to rush in to fill (and nobody is in the position to fill it, and most of the other options are a different flavor of bad or straight up worse). The result of that is instability and war, not peace and prosperity.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:26
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:One of the biggest problems I feel we have on the left is that we've spent so much time (correctly) criticising the numerous failures of American foreign policy that we've lost the perspective to see anything else. (edit - I missed the word "sole" before superpower, so nevermind) The Great African War happened in that time period, and Africom wasn't actually uninvolved.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:28
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Sinteres posted:Will you cry every day until Chelsea Manning is released? Even she thought she should be dead, though I don't. i have never cried and i will never cry. im a big boy, online and off
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Jan 19, 2017 21:18
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evilweasel posted:bulk surveillance against china is absolutely the right thing to do, it's a territorially expansionist country and while we have been on relatively friendly terms with them, the more we know the better. given that it's a foreign country the concern about domestic bulk surveillance doesn't apply. Also you may not have thought your argument through this far, but you're essentially giving countries like Russia and China a moral pass if they do the same thing to US citizens. Unless your angle is American Exceptionalism in which case holy poo poo
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Jan 19, 2017 21:41
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Chomskyan posted:you're essentially giving countries like Russia and China a moral pass if they do the same thing to US citizens
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Jan 19, 2017 21:49
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Chomskyan posted:I mean, you can keep asserting this but it won't make it any more true. Bulk data collection is indiscriminate in nature. Meaning the US targets massive amounts of people without any individualized suspicion of wrongdoing. The type of data collected is also indiscriminate, including personal photos that could compromising in nature, scans of important documents. It's an unethical process of dubious value. You're advocating unilateral disarmament.
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Jan 19, 2017 21:59
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MattD1zzl3 posted:Wouldnt be a felon with a dishonorable discharge still, as she was not pardoned? So you could still expect life to suck with or without trump. Yep. A felon with a DD, mostly untreated GID, and active psych issues culminating in suicide attempts. This is likely to be a very rough transition back to a relatively normal life. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 22:06
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Sinteres posted:You're advocating unilateral disarmament.
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Jan 19, 2017 22:28
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The Kingfish posted:What manning did was very good. I don't care about our "national security relationships" with brutal dictatorships and I especially don't care if the leaked information got some CIA spooks killed. How about if it hosed over local folks who worked with us? As far as I know it didn't result in any confirmable deaths there (with maybe some hand-waggling in Pakistan), thank Allah, and I support Manning's leaks ESPECIALLY given the information she had at the time on Wikileaks' responsible behavior, but I am uncomfortable with a blanket condemnation of local assets for basically the same reason that I don't think we should institutionally be dicks to people solely because they aren't American. Edit: or heck, rejoicing at the death of CIA employees for being CIA employees. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 22:48
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evilweasel posted:and when you post a criticism with any merit beyond your feelings and whining that i am not giving your feelings sufficient respect, perhaps i will bother to respond to them in kind Fwiw, the NSA has people overseas
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Jan 20, 2017 00:48
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https://twitter.com/xychelsea/status/822083492724903936
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Jan 20, 2017 01:59
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:One of the biggest problems I feel we have on the left is that we've spent so much time (correctly) criticising the numerous failures of American foreign policy that we've lost the perspective to see anything else. Maybe crypto-nazi isolationists would be less appealing to voters if these centrist governments with Serious Opinions on national security would stop committing these endless crimes that erode Americans' confidence and trust in their government.
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Jan 20, 2017 10:50
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:One of the biggest problems I feel we have on the left is that we've spent so much time (correctly) criticising the numerous failures of American foreign policy that we've lost the perspective to see anything else. Correlation does not imply causation, so your argument doesn't work.
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Jan 20, 2017 11:01
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Main Paineframe posted:Oh, absolutely. I'm more targeting my argument at the people who for some reason expect President Obama to pardon Snowden for revealing the NSA spying programs that President Obama already knew about and thought were perfectly fine. Snowden knew full well what he was doing and that he would never again be able to return to the US, but there are far too many supporters who don't seem to understand why the government is not in the business of granting clemency to people who think the government is wrong about things. It would be a shocking miscarriage of justice to pardon a spy as despicable as snowden.
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Jan 20, 2017 12:16
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Chomskyan posted:Also you may not have thought your argument through this far, but you're essentially giving countries like Russia and China a moral pass if they do the same thing to US citizens. Unless your angle is American Exceptionalism in which case holy poo poo If Russia or China had the capability to do what the NSA does they would do it in a heartbeat, no moral pass needed, and they'd use it for everything from silencing political dissidents to custom-tailored marketing of cheap knockoff handbags and mail order brides. It wouldn't be all bad, is what I'm saying. edit: I think 7 years is long enough, and I'm glad Obama has commuted Manning's sentence.
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Jan 20, 2017 13:16
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