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https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/821467895381233664 good
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Jan 17, 2017 22:28
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Was wondering if Obama would commute the sentence after reading this op-ed a few days ago. Obama's always been kind of hard to pin down as a president, and I've always wondered how much of the horrible things the country does are a result of him personally or if a lot of it is just political momentum that he can't really control. One thing that was always under his direct control was the punishment and potential to pardon whistleblowers, this move makes him a lot more respectable in my mind even if Snowden is still effectively in exile.
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Jan 17, 2017 22:32
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How's her safety now? Is she coming back to civilian life? Will Trump try and gently caress things up somehow?
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Jan 17, 2017 22:36
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Pollyanna posted:How's her safety now? Is she coming back to civilian life? Will Trump try and gently caress things up somehow? She gets released in May. Presidential pardons as far as I know can't be undone by the next standing president. Chances are she will join her family when released, and I'm guessing there will be support groups that will help get her treatment.
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Jan 17, 2017 22:52
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Pollyanna posted:How's her safety now? Is she coming back to civilian life? Will Trump try and gently caress things up somehow? Wouldnt be a felon with a dishonorable discharge still, as she was not pardoned? So you could still expect life to suck with or without trump. MattD1zzl3 fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 22:53
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Can trump gently caress it up somehow? It seems like ~4 months as pres he would have a lot of options to undo it
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Jan 17, 2017 22:55
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https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713
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Jan 17, 2017 22:55
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seiferguy posted:She gets released in May. Presidential pardons as far as I know can't be undone by the next standing president. I think the worry is that it's not a pardon. I don't know what protections she has since he is merely commuting the sentence. My guess is that this is not enough of a wedge issue for Trump to interfere.
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Jan 17, 2017 22:55
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MattD1zzl3 posted:Wouldnt (pronoun) be a felon with a dishonorable discharge still, as (pronoun) was not pardoned? So you could still expect life to suck with or without trump. She still gets the dishonorable discharge so she her life is going to still suck.
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Jan 17, 2017 22:55
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gently caress yeah!
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Jan 17, 2017 22:55
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MattD1zzl3 posted:Wouldnt (pronoun) be a felon with a dishonorable discharge still, as (pronoun) was not pardoned? So you could still expect life to suck with or without trump. You think you're being clever but this is still transphobic bile.
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Jan 17, 2017 22:57
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Am I wrong to view this as a big gently caress you to Snowden? He couldn't face trial because the government would
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Jan 17, 2017 22:57
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karthun posted:She still gets the dishonorable discharge so she her life is going to still suck. My point is, manning still should still get the felony as well, right? Commuting a sentance is not a pardon.
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Jan 17, 2017 22:57
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MattD1zzl3 posted:Wouldnt (pronoun) be a felon with a dishonorable discharge still, as (pronoun) was not pardoned? So you could still expect life to suck with or without trump. I think she'll be in a different position than most dishonorably discharged veterans as she has a lot of friends on the outside. I can see her getting a job at some non-profit related to raising awareness of the issues she has suffered (mental health in prison, trans, or whistleblowing.) Life's not going to be easy for her but she has a chance this way.
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Jan 17, 2017 22:58
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JeffersonClay posted:Am I wrong to view this as a big gently caress you to Snowden? Their case is that Snowden will not be pardoned because he fled. I'll believe it when I see it. Also, he's still awaiting trial for his alleged sexual assault, right? That's the main reason he's still living in the embassy?
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Jan 17, 2017 22:58
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tadashi posted:I think the worry is that it's not a pardon. I don't know what protections she has since he is merely commuting the sentence. Article 2 Section 2 of the US Constitution: quote:and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment. There's no un-commute option and I doubt Trump would be able to find a court that would limit the President's power here.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:01
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Great news. Please do Edward Snowden next.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:01
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Pocky In My Pocket posted:Can trump gently caress it up somehow? It seems like ~4 months as pres he would have a lot of options to undo it Why would he? I don't think hes ever expressed an opinion on the Manning stuff or given any indication that he cares either way? This is an empty promise, because it only mentions US extradition, and there's nothing to extradite him for because he was never charged with a crime by the US. He's in the embassy to hide from Swedish and British authorities, not the US.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:01
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Theresa May is probably fuming that she can't get credit for turfing a certain bogus asylum seeker out of Britain. The power to "unpardon" theoretically exists, but I don't think, with the Senate and SCOTUS almost evenly split, Trump is going to push it. The best case scenario is that that presidential power will have limits put on it. The worst case is impeachment.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:01
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tadashi posted:Their case is that Snowden will not be pardoned because he fled. Yes, and this undercuts the argument that he had to flee because the US justice system could never be fair, just look at Chelsea Manning.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:02
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tadashi posted:I'll believe it when I see it. Also, he's still awaiting trial for his alleged sexual assault, right? That's the main reason he's still living in the embassy? He is still a rapist coward yes.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:02
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TinTower posted:The power to "unpardon" theoretically exists
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Jan 17, 2017 23:05
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, and this undercuts the argument that he had to flee because the US justice system could never be fair, just look at Chelsea Manning. Spending seven years in prison under conditions that most of the world considers torture, attempting suicide twice, then being released on a whim by an outgoing president doesn't really redeem the US justice system. Snowden was right to flee.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:06
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tadashi posted:Their case is that Snowden will not be pardoned because he fled. A pardon typically requires acknowledgement on behalf of the pardoned that a crime was committed (which was an important wrinkle when the British Parliament discussed posthumous pardons for sodomy). So even if Obama wanted to pardon Snowden, he probably wouldn't be able to.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:06
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Unironically thanks, Obama.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:07
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, and this undercuts the argument that he had to flee because the US justice system could never be fair, just look at Chelsea Manning. To be fair to a hideous rear end in a top hat, up to this poing Obama's general disposition toward whistleblowers has been very, very hostile as a matter of government policy. Guess he felt he had to look 'tough' to keep the FBI/CIA/Security apparatus happy, and when they farted in his general direction he shrugged and went with his instincts. In his place I'd release any controversial figure slammed with bullshit federal charges. A lot of monster are about to skate free for the next 8 years, might as well let your freak flag fly while you can.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:10
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awesmoe posted:Where? It last came up when Bush pardoned then unpardoned Isaac Toussie, but he had legal advice that he could revoke Clinton's pardons (probably hinging on US v. Wilson) if he wanted.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:10
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Nixon was pardoned before being convicted or admitting guilt, so it's doable.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:11
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Spending seven years in prison under conditions that most of the world considers torture, attempting suicide twice, then being released on a whim by an outgoing president doesn't really redeem the US justice system. Snowden was right to flee. They kept her in solitary for 11 months, not 7 years. The way she was treated was hosed up but I don't think all prison time is torture.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:13
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MattD1zzl3 posted:My point is, manning still should still get the felony as well, right? Commuting a sentance is not a pardon. She is still considered guilty of the crime. Commuting just ends imprisonment. A pardon is like you were never convicted
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Jan 17, 2017 23:14
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karthun posted:She still gets the dishonorable discharge so she her life is going to still suck. Good. After this election I don't get why liberals still think Manning is a hero for helping Assange build his empire. Some of the material she leaked deserved to come to light, even if it was bad for US foreign policy interests, but the diplomatic cable leaks seem like a case of leaking information just because she and Assange could, and they arguably contributed a lot to global instability. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 23:16
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JeffersonClay posted:They kept her in solitary for 11 months, not 7 years. The way she was treated was hosed up but I don't think all prison time is torture. Yeah I worded that kind of weird. I meant she had been subjected to long periods of solitary confinement during her imprisonment which would be considered torture, not that the entire seven years constituted torture. Still, that's seven years of military prison where her jailers were actively loving with her over minor infractions like having expired toothpaste in her cell. One of the times she was committed to solitary was as punishment for a suicide attempt.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:17
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JUICY HAMBUGAR posted:Nixon was pardoned before being convicted or admitting guilt, so it's doable. Ford privately believed that Nixon's acceptance of the pardon implied an acceptance of guilt, and he does have Burdick v. United States to back him up.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:18
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TinTower posted:It last came up when Bush pardoned then unpardoned Isaac Toussie, but he had legal advice that he could revoke Clinton's pardons (probably hinging on US v. Wilson) if he wanted. Looking at both of those, the only legal basis I can see to unpardon anyone is if the next President is able to intercept the paperwork before it's delivered to the pardonee (which Bush managed to do, since it was his own paperwork). I would be ... surprised ... if Obama's people didn't make sure any last-minute pardons or commutations got delivered to the right people before Trump took office.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:18
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FourLeaf posted:Great news. Please do Edward Snowden next. The White House was quite clear that Snowden isn't getting poo poo, because he's fled to Russia, hasn't expressed remorse for his actions, hasn't faced a court, and hasn't served any time. Manning was commuted, not pardoned: i.e. Obama decided the punishment was too harsh, not that punishment wasn't warranted at all.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:21
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Yes, the military was absolutely terrible in their response to manning's transition and mental health needs. I don't think it follows that Snowden could never expect fairness from the justice system. I don't know if I'm projecting that dynamic onto Obama's decision here.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:21
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MattD1zzl3 posted:Wouldnt she be a felon with a dishonorable discharge still, as she was not pardoned? So you could still expect life to suck with or without trump. I fixed those pronouns for you. Be sure to use the right ones in the future. 
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Jan 17, 2017 23:21
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evilweasel posted:Looking at both of those, the only legal basis I can see to unpardon anyone is if the next President is able to intercept the paperwork before it's delivered to the pardonee (which Bush managed to do, since it was his own paperwork). I would be ... surprised ... if Obama's people didn't make sure any last-minute pardons or commutations got delivered to the right people before Trump took office. Yeah. There are some aspects of pardon power that are untested but nobody wants to test. Then again, the British government are fighting (and losing) a case that may severely limit the Royal Prerogative, and there's no way Trump isn't less stupid than Theresa May, so…
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Jan 17, 2017 23:24
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, the military was absolutely terrible in their response to manning's transition and mental health needs. I don't think it follows that Snowden could never expect fairness from the justice system. I don't know if I'm projecting that dynamic onto Obama's decision here. Snowden has said numerous times that he would face the US courts if they were willing to consider the potential that information he released was in the public interest. The Espionage Act specifically forbids this, so if he comes back it's only going to be for the sake of having the book thrown at him. Whether that constitutes a fair trial is up to you, I suppose it depends on how much you inherently respect the US legal system.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:25
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Sinteres posted:Good. After this election I don't get why liberals still think Manning is a hero for helping Assange build his empire. I think releasing the documents through Wikileaks rather than another organisation that wouldn't just have blanket released everything would have been smart. But that doesn't change that plenty of the stuff she leaked needed to be leaked. That morally it was the right thing to do, even if she took the wrong avenue to do it. Also, Wikileaks was a pretty well known thing before the Manning releases so lets not do revisionism. Unrelated to that, this amused me. https://twitter.com/PrestoVivace/status/821480756123930624
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Jan 17, 2017 23:26
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