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Should it be legal for other people to assault you if they disagree with you? This poll is closed. |
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183 | 49.06% |
| No |
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190 | 50.94% |
| Total: | 328 votes | ||
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now i'm just confused, are you talking about neonazis later in history or just nazi nazis doing their nazi thing in the twenties and thirties
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Jan 22, 2017 20:26
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:i think this might be more productive if we do a thought exercise: what would a modern-day organized uprising of neo-nazis in the united states look like, how would that work/get anywhere Um, I think their candidate was just inaugurated. Less glibly, American nazis would probably commit their pogroms by proxy through giving blanket support to agents of state power that discriminate against and violently attack minority groups with relative impunity as a matter of course.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:27
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also any of you guys going "i had never heard of him until now" should probably keep it yourselves because it makes you look pretty ignorant about following the election and poo poo.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:27
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:i think this might be more productive if we do a thought exercise: what would a modern-day organized uprising of neo-nazis in the united states look like, how would that work/get anywhere 
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Jan 22, 2017 20:27
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I'm saying that neonazis have been working on cleaning up their image to get back in power the exact same way the original nazis did. And it's working. So yes, they should be made afraid to show their faces in the streets.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:28
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:i think this might be more productive if we do a thought exercise: what would a modern-day organized uprising of neo-nazis in the united states look like, how would that work/get anywhere probably by getting a candidate elected that already has ties to the neo-nazi movement, and then working to make sure that person's cabinet / advisors are all members of the movement. once you have that initial influence you pass laws that suppress dissent and make it harder for political opponents to get elected. slowly, step by step, you then fill elected offices with movement members. then you wait for a catastrophic event or if necessary engineer one and use that to pass state of emergency laws that make sure power is fully in your hands.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:28
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TomViolence posted:Less glibly, American nazis would probably commit their pogroms by proxy through giving blanket support to agents of state power that discriminate against and violently attack minority groups with relative impunity as a matter of course. like is this the kind of thing that can be done by a few committed nazis working in secret who found out about the nazi thing from a joseph spencer (wait is his first name joseph) article, or would it take a hundred thousand nazis with a secret plan to first install and then control a leader they can count on to do their bidding
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Jan 22, 2017 20:32
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nice one botany posted:probably by getting a candidate elected that already has ties to the neo-nazi movement, and then working to make sure that person's cabinet / advisors are all members of the movement. once you have that initial influence you pass laws that suppress dissent and make it harder for political opponents to get elected. slowly, step by step, you then fill elected offices with movement members. then you wait for a catastrophic event or if necessary engineer one and use that to pass state of emergency laws that make sure power is fully in your hands. and is this possibility proximate enough to justify reflexive violence against people expressing neo-nazi ideas now, or is the violence happening simply reflexively because it's fun and acceptable to punch a nazi
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Jan 22, 2017 20:33
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:like is this the kind of thing that can be done by a few committed nazis working in secret who found out about the nazi thing from a joseph spencer (wait is his first name joseph) article, or would it take a hundred thousand nazis with a secret plan to first install and then control a leader they can count on to do their bidding Actually I was mostly referring to the system of white supremacy that already exists, in which police unaccountably and disproportionately murder and imprison black people and have a great deal of support from the general populace in doing so. So, you know, since the policy of state terror and repression is already in place all the nazis have to do is work to intensify it by participating in grass roots right wing politics. And doing media interviews to give it a presentable face. A presentable face which needs punching.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:36
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:nice one violence against people who think we should genocide the black population is always justified, regardless of the current political situation. but on top of that the scenario i described is also plausible enough to make direct action justified in any case. that it's fun is a bonus, imo.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:36
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:nice one Yes it is. It's already well established that they're going to start with the courts, too Start loving up Nazis today
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Jan 22, 2017 20:37
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botany posted:violence against people who think we should genocide the black population is always justified What other thoughts justify violence against the thought criminal?
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Jan 22, 2017 20:40
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TomViolence posted:Actually I was mostly referring to the system of white supremacy that already exists, in which police unaccountably and disproportionately murder and imprison black people and have a great deal of support from the general populace in doing so. So, you know, since the policy of state terror and repression is already in place all the nazis have to do is work to intensify it by participating in grass roots right wing politics. And doing media interviews to give it a presentable face. see, whether or not our system is innately white supremacist/controlled by white supremacists is somewhat contested, and not something i know enough about to have a debatable opinion on i'm afraid we're starting to reach an impasse, though discussing this sort of thing is enjoyable
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Jan 22, 2017 20:40
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:see, whether or not our system is innately white supremacist/controlled by white supremacists is somewhat contested anyone who contests it is wrong.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:42
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AARO posted:What other thoughts justify violence against the thought criminal? Hey, people can think what they like. When they decide to get up on a stage and get everyone doing roman salutes while spouting white nationalist rhetoric, however, that steps beyond thought or even speech and becomes political action. Politics is power, and whether abstracted or not in the end political power translates into violence.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:44
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:see, whether or not our system is innately white supremacist/controlled by white supremacists is somewhat contested yeah so is global warming
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Jan 22, 2017 20:44
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:like is this the kind of thing that can be done by a few committed nazis working in secret who found out about the nazi thing from a joseph spencer (wait is his first name joseph) article, or would it take a hundred thousand nazis with a secret plan to first install and then control a leader they can count on to do their bidding You know they're already in the white house, right? That Trump was endorsed by the KKK before the election? That his speech was written by a white supremacist anti-semite who is also one of his closest aides? That the "america first" slogan was used in WWII to discourage retaliation against the nazis?
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Jan 22, 2017 20:45
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AARO posted:What other thoughts justify violence against the thought criminal? "Agitating for genocide on national media is really just another idea"
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Jan 22, 2017 20:45
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:like is this the kind of thing that can be done by a few committed nazis working in secret who found out about the nazi thing from a joseph spencer (wait is his first name joseph) article, or would it take a hundred thousand nazis with a secret plan to first install and then control a leader they can count on to do their bidding It's not really hard to get a lot of influence in local or regional government, and one of Trump's senior advisors is a white supremacist.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:46
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TomViolence posted:Hey, people can think what they like. When they decide to get up on a stage and get everyone doing roman salutes while spouting white nationalist rhetoric, however, that steps beyond thought or even speech and becomes political action. Politics is power, and whether abstracted or not in the end political power translates into violence. Actually botany said just the thoughts themselves justify violence against the thinker. I'd like to know what other thoughts people have I can justifiably inflict violence on them for.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:46
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AARO posted:What other thoughts justify violence against the thought criminal? that guy openly, repeatedly called for the genocide of black people and you're indignant about him getting socked in the face. edit: jesus christ, let me spell it out for you then since my post was apparently so difficult to understand: i don't give a poo poo about your innermost feelings, i care about actions. openly calling for genocide gets you punched in the face. hope this helps clear up this unavoidable confusion
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Jan 22, 2017 20:47
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AARO posted:Actually botany said just the thoughts themselves justify violence against the thinker. I'd like to know what other thoughts people have I can inflict violence on them for. Quit the tedious concern trolling and try sitting at the grownups' table for a bit. I might let you have some of my beer if you behave.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:47
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botany posted:yeah so is global warming at this point its probably also ok to commit violence against any persons or institutions that are climate deniers because of the danger of potential life lost due to climate change
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Jan 22, 2017 20:48
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botany posted:that guy openly, repeatedly called for the genocide of black people and you're indignant about him getting socked in the face. You said it was justified to inflict violence on him for what he thinks. Are you changing your mind now and saying it's only ok to do violence against people who "call for" X? edit: Ok I see now that you are sloppy and imprecise in the things you say. AARO fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jan 22, 2017 |
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Jan 22, 2017 20:49
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Deep Thought posted:Yes their balls dropped. They're adults now and don't go for the 'I must be a stong man because I endorse violence by proxy' thing. its like looking into a shitposting kaleidoscope goddamn dude
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Jan 22, 2017 20:51
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Doorknob Slobber posted:at this point its probably also ok to commit violence against any persons or institutions that are climate deniers because of the danger of potential life lost due to climate change Global warming has no bias, maybe it'll kill more nazis than liberals would? Bring it on
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Jan 22, 2017 20:51
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Main Paineframe posted:It's not really hard to get a lot of influence in local or regional government, and one of Trump's senior advisors is a white supremacist. how many steps removed is it from expressing an opinion to someone hearing and adopting that opinion to becoming influential in a government position, and how many more steps is it from there to enacting or reinforcing potentially white supremacist or genocidal policies yellowyams posted:You know they're already in the white house, right? That Trump was endorsed by the KKK before the election? That his speech was written by a white supremacist anti-semite who is also one of his closest aides? That the "america first" slogan was used in WWII to discourage retaliation against the nazis? this is getting a bit weird
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Jan 22, 2017 20:52
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AARO posted:What other thoughts justify violence against the thought criminal?
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Jan 22, 2017 20:52
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wizard on a water slide posted:It's good that the law and morality are two different things, because it should not be legal to assault people, but it is morally correct to assault Nazis. This is basically where I am at.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:53
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AARO posted:You said it was justified to inflict violence on him for what he thinks. Are you changing your mind now and saying it's only ok to do violence against people who "call for" X? when people call for the dehumanization and genocide of other people and turn it into their sociopolitical platform? HELL YEAH I loving DO That's what you X is in that example. please remember that. it's not something up in the air, it's Literal Nazi rhetoric
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Jan 22, 2017 20:53
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:this is getting a bit weird Which parts? America first? Trump endorsed by KKK? Trump's speech written by a white nationalist?
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Jan 22, 2017 20:56
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AARO posted:You said it was justified to inflict violence on him for what he thinks. Are you changing your mind now and saying it's only ok to do violence against people who "call for" X? 
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Jan 22, 2017 20:59
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:this is getting a bit weird everything he said is true.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:00
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this is what civil society defending itself from barbarism looks like, maybe you should deal with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn_XZeQRdts
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Jan 22, 2017 21:00
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:how many steps removed is it from expressing an opinion to someone hearing and adopting that opinion to becoming influential in a government position, and how many more steps is it from there to enacting or reinforcing potentially white supremacist or genocidal policies You're talking about white supremacists getting into power, but they never really got kicked out of power in the first place. There are already plenty of white supremacists in influential government positions pushing white supremacist policies, they're just limited in how much they can get away with being open about it. That's why Jeff "too openly racist for the 1980s" Sessions is being floated for a cabinet position again, and making sure to point out how many civil rights cases he signed paperwork on this time.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:01
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:i like that most of the goons in favor of assaulting richard spencer are afraid to express that opinion in any way other than whiny sarcasm I support the guy who punched Richard Spencer and would still support him unironically if he had murdered Spencer instead. Is that better? Nazis don't deserve life imo
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Jan 22, 2017 21:03
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You guys are just making up your own rules. Why should anyone listen to you? You have no principles, you just make up your own morality as you go along. "He 'calls for' genocide so I can justifiably punch him." This is incorrect. Those who respect constitutional rights know that "No matter what he 'calls for' you cannot justifiably punch him solely based on that act of calling for something." It is not ok to inflict violence on people solely on the basis of them expressing their thoughts, regardless of how abhorrent their thoughts may be.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:05
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AARO posted:"He 'calls for' genocide so I can justifiably punch him." This is incorrect. Those who respect constitutional rights know that The constitution is a loving joke that mostly only applies to privileged people anyways
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Jan 22, 2017 21:07
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maybe he shouldn't advocate genocide if he doesn't want to get hit? the blame lies ultimately with him, not the puncher.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:08
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AARO posted:You guys are just making up your own rules. Why should anyone listen to you? You have no principles, you just make up your own morality as you go along. Constitutional rights just mean the government can't punch you for saying things. The First Amendment doesn't immunize people from any and all potential consequences of their speech, it only prevents the government from punishing them for speech. If private individuals want to punish someone for their speech, go ahead, there's no law against that.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:08
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