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Should it be legal for other people to assault you if they disagree with you? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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183 | 49.06% |
| No |
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190 | 50.94% |
| Total: | 328 votes | ||
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wizard on a water slide posted:It's good that the law and morality are two different things, because it should not be legal to assault people, but it is morally correct to assault Nazis. Not an emptyquote. Antifa have been punching Nazis for ages. It's a good thing.
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Jan 22, 2017 18:57
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:serioustalk: i had no idea who richard spencer was until he got punched in the face, now suddenly i'm seeing him everywhere and he has a platform to play victim on and be listened to, because he got punched in the face I'm sorry you haven't been paying attention to the news. He had a huge article on NYT not too long ago.
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Jan 22, 2017 19:00
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Deep Thought posted:This is place is going downhill fast. You should kill yourself. Quoted so you can't edit it out later.
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Jan 22, 2017 19:04
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:yeah i don't read the ny times, like most people, and i suspect i didn't see the article linked or tweeted or anything because drawing attention to articles written by nazis is considered kinda weird and bad Really? I'm sorry you are proud of your ignorance and seem to be happy surrounding yourself with ignorant people. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/ Here's an Atlantic article on the guy. This was big news for a while.
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Jan 22, 2017 19:10
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Edit: Please don't post links to crowdfunders Donate to help an antifa that wasn't punched by the forces of reaction. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 22, 2017 19:13
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People laud the peaceful transfer of power in the United States but while it is peaceful there has never been a meaningful transfer of power. The racist, classistist establishment has controlled the country from day 1. The Russians learned what happens when you try to work with Nazis. They also figured out how to fix Nazis.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:55
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Regarding legality, I don't think the old "Fighting Words" decisions were ever overturned. I know they were narrowed, but I'd be interested to see whether Nazism would fall under "Fighting Words". With a Trump appointee on the SC, I'm guessing "Nazism" will be considered protected speech.
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Jan 22, 2017 22:02
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AARO posted:Nobody should be punched for mere speech, no matter how much you dislike it. Why?
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Jan 22, 2017 22:31
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AARO posted:You think Spencer's words are likely to incite or produce such action immanently? You are right, this person calling for ethnic and racial violence probably won't be given a national outlet for his hatred. It's not like the news would ever interview someone like that.
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Jan 22, 2017 22:48
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AARO posted:Would he be punched if he didn't say he was gay? No. Are you saying that being a Nazi is an intrinsic and inseparable aspect of a person's identity? That they have no choice in the matter and will simply always be Nazis? I'm also OK with silencing Nazi speech. It's the whole "Racist Tree" thing.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:29
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:how's the racist tree thing work quote:The Racist Tree Ideally, you'd make the racist tree not racist, but simply shaming the racist tree so it can no longer act on its racism is positive social progress.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:38
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:The fallacy is that all opinions are valid. That's what's being argued in the thread. That people are entitled to want to tear down the pillars of our society while hiding behind them. Not an empty quote. This is why Rust Belters love the idea of "Coastal Elites in their Ivory Towers" or "Starbucks/Limosine Liberals".
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Jan 23, 2017 00:15
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AARO posted:All the arguments I have presented in this thread are iron clad and no one has even made a serious attempt to refute a single thing I've said. Nice meltdown.
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Jan 23, 2017 01:31
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As someone living in a comfortable white suburb calling for peace and nonviolence, unlike Antifa and BLM protesters, I'm pretty sure I would have marched with MLK and fought against Hitler had I been living in those eras.
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Jan 23, 2017 01:44
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AARO is a Nazi sympathizer.
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Jan 23, 2017 02:11
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:i mean i don't like nazis but i like violence even less Welcome to the struggle, my white brother! Together we will make the world understand that Nazis aren't bad. WPWW!
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Jan 23, 2017 02:16
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yellowyams posted:Okay, but have you seen it now? Here, I'll quote it for you if you're having trouble finding it. I'm pretty sure that punching a white man in the face is worse than any of those things though . . .
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Jan 23, 2017 02:19
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Rodatose posted:The whole point of nazism/fascism is that life is eternal conflict and that only a state which exercises systemic violence for its own gain can succeed. That's more Italian Fascism, especially the more modern parts of Italian Fascism. The Nazi romantic vision of violence is very different and, frankly, a lot scarier. It's the difference between trying to be the fastest in a race and dying in a horrific crash because you went faster than you could control and knocking someone off the track so you can win.
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Jan 23, 2017 02:25
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AARO posted:I guess we're at an impasse. I really am trying here to understand what the hell you're saying. That's funny, because everyone else understands what you are saying and finds it loving abhorrent. Maybe you should check out a mirror sometime?
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Jan 23, 2017 02:26
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Chill people made the best Nazis. My mom grew up next to them. They got along, refused to make waves, looked the other way when things got ugly and focused on happier things than ‘politics. They were lovely people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away. You know who weren’t chill people? Resisters.
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Jan 23, 2017 02:31
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Rodatose posted:What was the difference Not that it matters that much, but the Futurism of Italian Fascism is in conflict with the Romanticism found in German Nazism. But that's window dressing on a poo poo pie 
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Jan 23, 2017 02:32
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Main Paineframe posted:Punching someone because of how they were born isn't the same as punching someone for the beliefs they hold. The fact that in both cases they told the puncher about the thing they got punched for doesn't make the two situations somehow equivalent. As a straight cishet white man, these all look the same to me. I don't know why you people are making such a big deal 
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Jan 23, 2017 02:39
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Trabisnikof posted:Does voting in favor of Trump's nominees make someone enough of a nazi to make punching them good? I'm from America and I say kill 'em all!
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Jan 23, 2017 04:28
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Propaganda of the deed is good.
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Jan 23, 2017 17:48
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Is it permissible to use my Assault Rifle on "the fash?" Asking for a friend. Worked great in the '30s and '40s. 5/5, would do again.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:56
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:For some reason the democrats keep wanting to ban my assault rifle. Perhaps they are "fash apologia"? So who here has been "bashing" prominent government officials? I'm OK with guns being illegal and with using illegal guns to illegally murder bad people. This is what love in public looks like:  The world would be a better place if they had "bashed the fash" on the Californian who banned their assault rifles.
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Jan 24, 2017 06:31
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The Police are a white power organization and have no moral authority on the use of violence.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:48
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Calibanibal posted:what im struggling with is the dilemma that pittberg lamb and others have argued persuasively, that punches intended for nazis may sometimes be received by non-nazis, for whatever reason. this troubles me As someone who used to be involved in some Antifa poo poo, I feel like I have some authority here. Generally speaking, Nazis and Antifa seek each other out to beat each other up as a form of catharsis. It's a lot of angry teenage poo poo. I'm unusual in that I'm "Old Money became no money (during the Great Depression)" in terms of my background. Most on both sides were more "Raisin in the Sun" types, where their families had dreams of social mobility that didn't work out. The parents displaced this frustration onto their kids.* And the kids found out that punching their feelings was good therapy  In other threads I've talked about how there was a ritualized component to Antifa/Nazi fights. It's pretty obvious and unless you are a total moron or actively trying to start a fight (and if you are, you are probably an Antifa/Nazi). An example that Goons might get since evidently all Goons love Jesus (still surprised by that one) or at least Crusader Kings 2 is Orthodox and Catholic Eucharist. Go to a modern wedding with a mixed crowd and both Orthodox and Catholic services will have a helpful note carefully detailing who can and cannot receive the Eucharist. What happens is that most people just awkwardly receive the Eucharist. But the people who care? They stand out. It's pretty obvious to everybody and there is no ambiguity. The mythology of "maybe someone will be confused with someone else when everyone involved can totally tell each other apart but they all look the same to me because I'm not involved" is the laziest form of concern trolling. Like, be better. Like, how many people do you think sneak into churches of the wrong denomination to "defile" them by violating their rules on eating some bread? Is that a credible threat? *Side note: Kids from unspoken disappointment or divorce where "It's not your fault" but it totally was were much more likely to be Antifa whereas kids from vocalized disappointment or acrimonious "the kid is totally a piece in play on the board" divorces tended towards Nazism.
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Jan 25, 2017 10:21
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enki42 posted:To attempt to steer things in a more useful direction, I'd like to know more about Antifa folks in general. Did they tend to be active outside of the punching, or is it more people looking for a fight and finding an excuse for one. Is it all just catharsis in your opinion, is there an aim / goal to the fighting? Punk music and punching are reasons #1 and #2. We're talking about people ~15-~22 years old who have a lot of anger in their lives and are looking for an outlet. That said, for a lot of people there was a very real ideological edge to it. We were all trying (with varying degrees of success) to channel that anger into something productive. This means a lot of them went on to become more effective social activists of varying stripes (social workers, union reps, etc.). There were also a lot of chucklefucks, similar to what you saw with the Black Block folks. But even those chucklefucks would make a point of being welcoming to racial, religious and gender/sexual minorities. I'd argue that creating a welcoming environment for vulnerable people is worth the price of a few broken windows and teeth. That ties into the whole "perceived violence" thing. I'd argue that openly identifying as a Nazi is absolutely a form of violence and that it also merits a violent response. By their very act of existing, they create an unsafe environment for minorities. Have you ever seen what happens when some obvious racists walk into a bar with a mixed clientele? It gets real light real quick. Unless someone is an rear end in a top hat, makes a scene and tells them to get the gently caress out. The world could use some more assholes standing up for what is right and fewer people politely looking the other way when horrible poo poo happens. It's not a perfect solution or even really a good one. But since nobody else is doing it, I'll take an imperfect solution over the alternative. A better world would be one where we don't have to punch Nazis because Nazis are too afraid to come out of the woodwork and publicly express their hateful views. Even better would be a world free of Nazis entirely.
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Jan 25, 2017 17:58
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Chomskyan posted:Were the terrorists in question white? Divide by zero error.
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Jan 26, 2017 04:50
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FreeKillB posted:I wasn't saying the ACLU is above criticism, I was saying that calling them Nazi collaborators is hyperbole at best and slander/libel at worst. The answer to social libertarianism is the same as the answer to economic liberatarianism.
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Jan 26, 2017 05:03
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FreeKillB posted:OK, I guess our views don't really diverge that much on the theoretical level. We crossed that Rubicon a long time ago. Unless you are cool with a racist murder system?
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Jan 26, 2017 07:08
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"To all Nazis and their supporters, we wish you bad entertainment."
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Jan 26, 2017 07:50
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FreeKillB posted:The thing is violence by law enforcement and by the military is something that can be just and legitimate, even if in many cases it isn't. LOL. My violence is OK. But when oppressed people are violent that is bad and against the whole point of democracy and free speech. Get in line, you'll get your rights someday!
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Jan 26, 2017 07:57
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Truth is, we need both. Nobody on the violence side is advocating for a purely violent approach. The misguided "The state is basically correct and if we just go through the right motions crowd" on the other hand, is hopeless naive. Edit: The Autobahn is a great highway system! I said SOME things the Nazi government were good!
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Jan 26, 2017 08:15
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Kubrick posted:When is violence needed then? Because if the bar is set at "rear end in a top hat on street talking about pepe" then it must be really really low. The bar is already super low. People get killed all the time in America. Sometimes by cops and nobody cares. Sometimes by someone random but the deceased were the "wrong" kind of person so no one really looks into it. Sometimes by some specific but that specific person was higher on the social pecking order so they get a pass. Punching somebody is pretty low on the pre-existing scale. The assumption of non-violence is incredibly naive.
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Jan 26, 2017 08:26
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Kubrick posted:You dodged that question better than Kelly Ann Conway. I'm not even mad. I believe in using speech against all manner of ideas. I just view violence as a form of escalated speech as opposed to something else entirely. But way to support the on going genocide. You are a loving poo poo-stain. You are the moderate King talks about. If you ask me, the biggest problem we have is that we're punching fascists instead of punching people like you. Say what you will about National Socialism, at least it's an ethos. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 26, 2017 08:35
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Kubrick posted:Double dodge! It's ok if you don't want to answer, but you clearly have thought this out before. What would someone have to do escalate your speech into violence? Think fascist thoughts? Speak fascist words? I know how I would answer. Really earning that redtext. The answer is clear: be a Nazi. It's not some slippery slope. Nazis, like Spencer, will let you know that they are Nazis. They are open and proud of this fact.
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Jan 26, 2017 08:47
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So, what you are saying is: he's a Nazi.
Shbobdb fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 08:51
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Kubrick posted:It's funny you should mention that because Spencer has said that he isn't nazi (clearly is a nazi). In the other thread someone was calling trump supporters fascists, so the slippery slope can be pretty real. LOL
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Jan 26, 2017 09:02
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