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Fruit Smoothies posted:I've heard so many people want the word "feminism" to be changed. I don't think they're all anti-fems per se, but they get caught up in the word and the fact it has "fem-" in it. No. There are several reasons why this is wrong. A) there is nothing to gain at letting people outside of the movement rebrand feminism. "Feminism" is a word that has a history and that is associated with some of the greatest social advances in history. It places the focus on women, and this is the right thing to do because women are the oppressed minority in the patriarchy. "Equalism" or "egalitarianism" lack any form of frame of reference. Equality of what, between whom? Is anti-racism also egalitarianism? Is class struggle also egalitarianism? These labels ate meaningless. B) they won't stop at rebranding feminism. They will create new definitions, and delegitimize critical aspects of the feminist struggle as "not real egalitarianism". Already you have plenty of examples of people ITT moaning about how real feminists have been replaced with people who don't care about true equality, and that some aspects of feminism are pointless, stupid, frightening, and not really that bad after all especially when you compare them with other countries. This is tripe. C) even all that rebranding and redefining won't stop phallocrats from hating on the core concept of feminism or equality. Consider France, where "égalitariste" and "droit-de-l'hommiste" are used as slurs. I'll let that sink in for a while. There are literally people (and a bunch of people, too!), who are using "human-rightsist" as an insult. The same thing goes with anglo-saxon morons who use "Social Justice Warrior" as a derogatory term, as if social justice were a bad thing. No amount of rebranding will attract a regressive.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:07
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You can change the word all you want and people are still going to whine about some straw man. The issue isn't vernacular it's a portion of the populace being irredeemable shitlords.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:12
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Fruit Smoothies posted:I've heard so many people want the word "feminism" to be changed. I don't think they're all anti-fems per se, but they get caught up in the word and the fact it has "fem-" in it. Everyone could stand to be a bit more patient and empathetic, but if you think about it, rare is the person that stops and takes time out of their day to explain a complex subject to someone starting at zero, and it's hard to fault them for that. Recommending they immerse themselves in the subject a bit before coming back for answers isn't a terrible idea. I think a lot of people let a few negative interactions IRL and online effect the way they view feminism, and that's a mistake. Would you make up your mind definitively about anything else in your life by just talking to a few people about it? Also the problem with "equalism" or a generalized gender egalitarianism movement is that it would be co-opted by men immediately e. What Algeria said ^^
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Jan 24, 2017 14:15
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Deified Data posted:I think a lot of people let a few negative interactions IRL and online effect the way they view feminism, and that's a mistake. Would you make up your mind definitively about anything else in your life by just talking to a few people about it? I'm sure this happens, but that's pretty reductive to handwave away people who once identified as feminists and no longer do thanks to the pop culture explosion it has undergone in the past decade or so.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:25
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Enrico Furby posted:I'm sure this happens, but that's pretty reductive to handwave away people who once identified as feminists and no longer do thanks to the pop culture explosion it has undergone in the past decade or so. To be frank, "I used to be feminist until X" is a thing I hear a lot of and it always felt like emotional manipulation to me - like they want me to feel bad that we'd be on the same side if it weren't for those darn SJWs. I don't really buy it. If you held the belief with any conviction you wouldn't stop just because someone was rude to you or you saw something cringey on Tumblr, right? I don't let individuals reflect on the entire movement.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:31
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That's why you wouldn't change the feminism movement into an egalitarianism movement, you'd just stop pushing the idea that the feminism movement is the egalitarianism movement, rather than a movement within egalitarianism. This is a thing that actually bothers me a little. And by bothers me a little I mean only enough to post about it in this thread that already exists. I'm thinking that if it bothers me a little, it probably bothers some other people more, and perhaps enough for them to actually shy away from the movement or prime them to be turned against the movement. I doubt it's a particularly big issue so if someone wants to reply with "I doubt it's worth worrying about" then cool, I can't really object to that. But I do object to the absolutism presented here, which is a problem the left seems to have all over the place, where every person is either currently/soon for something, or irredeemably against it. I think we leave a lot of people in the middle that could be picked up with slight changes in approach or effort. Again though, not necessarily saying this is a point where we stand to pick up a lot of people. Kinda just going on about it here because this discussion is what prompted me wanting to address the broader trend. Deified Data posted:To be frank, "I used to be feminist until X" is a thing I hear a lot of and it always felt like emotional manipulation to me - like they want me to feel bad that we'd be on the same side if it weren't for those darn SJWs. I don't really buy it. If you held the belief with any conviction you wouldn't stop just because someone was rude to you or you saw something cringey on Tumblr, right? I don't let individuals reflect on the entire movement. See this point is part of what I'm talking about. You're trying to superimpose your own thought process on other people in order to divine what they believe. People fall into all kinds of logical traps all the time, extrapolating over an entire movement because of a few individuals is probably one of the milder ones. Futuresight fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 14:33
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OTOH it's probably just an excuse, and if you scratch the surface of someone who is adamantly against the use of the word "feminism", chances are you'll find they were just a regressive who just wants you to shut up and stop bothering them, and who is resorting to low-level concern trolling and tone policing.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:41
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There is that.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:44
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Deified Data posted:To be frank, "I used to be feminist until X" is a thing I hear a lot of and it always felt like emotional manipulation to me - like they want me to feel bad that we'd be on the same side if it weren't for those darn SJWs. I don't really buy it. If you held the belief with any conviction you wouldn't stop just because someone was rude to you or you saw something cringey on Tumblr, right? I don't let individuals reflect on the entire movement. How many assumptions can you make based on your own cognitive dissonance? If you want to invalidate all criticisms from the outset with ideologically predisposed strawmen, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect the critics to roll over and play dead or not take umbrage with blanket characterizations of manipulation or not being able to parse outliers. It is for *widespread* reasons like those you just demonstrated that many folks are taking issue in the first place. The other lovely thing is that so many people who oppose third wave pop feminism are utter shitheads, morons, or broken-hearted dudes lashing out. The small section that has more legitimate claims is assumed to be in league with them. It's a lonely existence. It's the same bullshit with political goldfish who cannot comprehend that a criticism of Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump does not automatically make someone a de facto supporter of the other candidate. Some people are simply opposed to propaganda, groupthink, the suspicious stink of social engineering, and the repression of dissent and/or free speech. Liberals used to be among them but doesn't seem that way anymore. Liberalism as a whole is changing in this country into an unrecognizable mass of authoritarianism and identity politics which refuses to look at economics or geopolitics as cornerstones of both politics and realpolitik and instead focuses on wedge social issues which corporations can hitch their hooks onto in order to increase their market share while real structures of oppression march forward. And honestly, the biggest reason for that is the sheer numbers of people who rah-rah blindly for the Democrats the way they rah-rah for whatever Buzzfeed article about yasss queen slaying is going viral right now. There is a severe lack of substance in modern liberalism, modern feminism, and to a lesser extent the modern black rights movement. And the reason is simple: it's working as designed. Activists design simple (often infantilizingly so) ways of disseminating their message to get more people onboard without realizing that when you dumb down your message, dumb people (of which there are no shortage of) are going to take your dumbed down message and then make it even dumber. So great, you're reaching critical mass -- now it's being more and more rejected because of how you've gone about getting those numbers. And now it's an industry. Corporate America is co-opting and embracing it. But nobody listens, no one gives a poo poo, just as long their team wins.
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Jan 24, 2017 14:59
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What's your problem with feminism then? Is it those drat Ess Jay Double-Ewes on Tumblr? Is it that they don't listen enough to men? Or is it that you think it's cool and good that women are unequal? How brown is your shirt?
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Jan 24, 2017 15:01
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Enrico Furby posted:How many assumptions can you make based on your own cognitive dissonance? If you want to invalidate all criticisms from the outset with ideologically predisposed strawmen, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect the critics to roll over and play dead or not take umbrage with blanket characterizations of manipulation or not being able to parse outliers. It is for *widespread* reasons like those you just demonstrated that many folks are taking issue in the first place. everyone is stupid except me
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Jan 24, 2017 15:01
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Enrico Furby posted:Some people are simply opposed to propaganda, groupthink, the suspicious stink of social engineering, and the repression of dissent and/or free speech. Those people are probably pretty dumb.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:02
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I rest my case.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:02
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Enrico Furby posted:Some people are simply opposed to propaganda, groupthink, the suspicious stink of social engineering, and the repression of dissent and/or free speech. Feminism is a minority view point. Most of the country is against gender equality according to recent statistics.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:05
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Enrico Furby posted:I rest my case. Or is it gold now?
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Jan 24, 2017 15:05
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Enrico Furby posted:I rest my case. No seriously what you're describing is someone with absolutely no coherent political position. If you you just dislike collective ideological motivation and most attempts to communicate that ideology that rules you out of like, nearly all effective politics. There is no political stance that does not engage in all of those short of some malformed belief that it is possible to be "apolitical" and just accept the prevailing politics of the time. You cannot possibly escape those in politics and anyone who believes they have is sorely lacking in perspective.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:06
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Enrico Furby posted:I rest my case. I rest mine. You see, Fruit Smoothies? This is an example of a dude who, when you scratch the concern trolling surface, will expose his scorn for "liberals", "modern feminism", and so on. Let this dude rebrand feminism, and he'll sell you the status quo if not regression.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:11
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Enrico Furby posted:How many assumptions can you make based on your own cognitive dissonance? If you want to invalidate all criticisms from the outset with ideologically predisposed strawmen, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect the critics to roll over and play dead or not take umbrage with blanket characterizations of manipulation or not being able to parse outliers. It is for *widespread* reasons like those you just demonstrated that many folks are taking issue in the first place. yeah you definitely own a fedora
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Jan 24, 2017 15:14
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i don't think "here's my personal anti-feminist rant, prove me wrong (or make really weak fedora/neckbeard/virgin/gb2reddit cracks i guess)" is going to be a very good thread
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Jan 24, 2017 15:15
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Enrico Furby posted:How many assumptions can you make based on your own cognitive dissonance? If you want to invalidate all criticisms from the outset with ideologically predisposed strawmen, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect the critics to roll over and play dead or not take umbrage with blanket characterizations of manipulation or not being able to parse outliers. It is for *widespread* reasons like those you just demonstrated that many folks are taking issue in the first place. Can you elaborate on what your actual concern is? You recognize the difference between GROUPTHINK and ideology, yes? The vast majority of people hold beliefs for a reason.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:17
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Enrico Furby comes off as a white supremacist.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:21
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OwlFancier posted:No seriously what you're describing is someone with absolutely no coherent political position. If you you just dislike collective ideological motivation and most attempts to communicate that ideology that rules you out of like, nearly all effective politics. There is no political stance that does not engage in all of those short of some malformed belief that it is possible to be "apolitical" and just accept the prevailing politics of the time. The exact mentality you're mandating is the one lacking in perspective. It's part of the sickness of anti-intellectualism running rampant in this country. Pick a side, no matter what you know or don't know, instantly rejecting any dissenting information that doesn't fall into the overarching zeitgeist of your group and whatever is trending on Twitter in your little sphere that day. Don't ever say, "I don't know." Don't ever hold two conflicting beliefs at once because then you're not ideologically pure and are thus an enemy. Pick a side, scream at anyone who opposes, avoid real discussion with pithy one liners, buy whatever garbage you're fed from the charlatans claiming to lead you, disregard the integrity of the publications you choose to share on social media (hint: HuffPo and Buzzfeed shouldn't be carrying the torch for anyone, let alone people trying to achieve real institutional equality), and try to come up with really sticky hashtags so people can revel in how clever you are. Voila! Modern American politics. It's disgusting and feminism has fallen prey to it perhaps the hardest, though it is, as I said, incredibly intertwined with DNC strategy at this point.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:21
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so you're making an impassioned plea for the merits of incoherence and disengagement?
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Jan 24, 2017 15:23
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Enrico Furby posted:The exact mentality you're mandating is the one lacking in perspective. It's part of the sickness of anti-intellectualism running rampant in this country. Pick a side, no matter what you know or don't know, instantly rejecting any dissenting information that doesn't fall into the overarching zeitgeist of your group and whatever is trending on Twitter in your little sphere that day. Don't ever say, "I don't know." Don't ever hold two conflicting beliefs at once because then you're not ideologically pure and are thus an enemy. Pick a side, scream at anyone who opposes, avoid real discussion with pithy one liners, buy whatever garbage you're fed from the charlatans claiming to lead you, disregard the integrity of the publications you choose to share on social media (hint: HuffPo and Buzzfeed shouldn't be carrying the torch for anyone, let alone people trying to achieve real institutional equality), and try to come up with really sticky hashtags so people can revel in how clever you are. Voila! Modern American politics. It's disgusting and feminism has fallen prey to it perhaps the hardest, though it is, as I said, incredibly intertwined with DNC strategy at this point. What on earth are you going on about? It is perfectly possible to have a nuanced political position without holding the inane belief that you're somehow above or immune to ideology and communication of ideas. We live in a world defined by politics, there is no escape from the political, anyone who believes they are not engaged in politics is so immersed in an ideology that they have universalized it and now view it as somehow innate to humanity. Every aspect of your life is shaped by political ideas, they form the bedrock of our society and acceptance or refutation of them are both political positions. There is no such thing as apolitical. You don't have to pick your position from a prescribed list but you cannot escape the influences of everybody around you and your ideas do not become non-ideological or not propaganda because you agree with them. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 15:25
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Enrico Furby posted:The exact mentality you're mandating is the one lacking in perspective. It's part of the sickness of anti-intellectualism running rampant in this country. Pick a side, no matter what you know or don't know, instantly rejecting any dissenting information that doesn't fall into the overarching zeitgeist of your group and whatever is trending on Twitter in your little sphere that day. Don't ever say, "I don't know." Don't ever hold two conflicting beliefs at once because then you're not ideologically pure and are thus an enemy. Pick a side, scream at anyone who opposes, avoid real discussion with pithy one liners, buy whatever garbage you're fed from the charlatans claiming to lead you, disregard the integrity of the publications you choose to share on social media (hint: HuffPo and Buzzfeed shouldn't be carrying the torch for anyone, let alone people trying to achieve real institutional equality), and try to come up with really sticky hashtags so people can revel in how clever you are. Voila! Modern American politics. It's disgusting and feminism has fallen prey to it perhaps the hardest, though it is, as I said, incredibly intertwined with DNC strategy at this point. This isn't a real thing that is going on.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:25
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I said come in! posted:This isn't a real thing that is going on.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:27
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I said come in! posted:Enrico Furby comes off as a white supremacist. Flowers For Algeria posted:I rest mine. You see, Fruit Smoothies? This is an example of a dude who, when you scratch the concern trolling surface, will expose his scorn for "liberals", "modern feminism", and so on. Let this dude rebrand feminism, and he'll sell you the status quo if not regression. You're both laughably wrong, but what I'm not going to do is jump through your ideological purity test in order to demonstrate it. Cease to Hope posted:i don't think "here's my personal anti-feminist rant, prove me wrong (or make really weak fedora/neckbeard/virgin/gb2reddit cracks i guess)" is going to be a very good thread I agree somewhat, but sadly this happens all too often in D&D. There are a million places to circlejerk over why third wave feminism is the best thing to ever happen, but someone sets up a thread to critique and it is instantly overrun with trolls who run it into the ground. Typical and, laughably enough, the kind of thing I'd expect way more from alt-right assholes a mere decade ago. Sadly, as I said, most of the resources you can find on the subject are pretty loving biased or see through in their blatant misogyny or alt-right leanings, and if that's not the direction where your critique is coming from, you have to do your best to articulate your own subjective experience, thoughts, and ideas -- which would be fine, but as third-wave feminists constantly and consistently show on the internet, they're not interested in a discussion. They are interested in dictation.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:28
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But feminism is ontologically and objectively correct, though?
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Jan 24, 2017 15:29
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You're not a Nazi in the same way that Richard Spencer isn't a Nazi
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Jan 24, 2017 15:29
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If you'd like to offer some specific critiques of third wave feminism I would be happy to have a big flaming row with you over them.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:30
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Enrico Furby posted:You're both laughably wrong, but what I'm not going to do is jump through your ideological purity test in order to demonstrate it. You share most if not all of the same beliefs. You just tip toe around the more obvious racism and sexism but you fall in line with them. It's okay though, most of white America is as well, it's just called something else like conservatism or alt-right, it's accessible white supremacy that is made acceptable and easy to swallow. There's plenty to be ashamed of with that but America has been a white supremacist nation from the start.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:31
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OwlFancier posted:What on earth are you going on about? I really don't know why you keep going on about this because I have never said anything about being apolitical. Your argument is the same argument I use against the metric fuckton of people in this country who go "FUCKIN POLITICS MAN IT DONT EVEN MATTER". How you got there is baffling to me, but not surprising given the responses thus far. I can kinda see this is about as much of a waste of time as I thought, though. You used to occasionally get some meaningful discussion here years ago, sadly those days also seem long gone.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:33
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Maybe he's doing a lottery of Babylon thing and just copy pasting from comments sections.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:34
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Enrico Furby posted:I really don't know why you keep going on about this because I have never said anything about being apolitical. Your argument is the same argument I use against the metric fuckton of people in this country who go "FUCKIN POLITICS MAN IT DONT EVEN MATTER". How you got there is baffling to me, but not surprising given the responses thus far. I can kinda see this is about as much of a waste of time as I thought, though. You used to occasionally get some meaningful discussion here years ago, sadly those days also seem long gone. NO ONE UNDERSTANDS ME ITS THEM THAT IS WRONG NOT ME 
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Jan 24, 2017 15:35
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Enrico Furby posted:I really don't know why you keep going on about this because I have never said anything about being apolitical. Your argument is the same argument I use against the metric fuckton of people in this country who go "FUCKIN POLITICS MAN IT DONT EVEN MATTER". How you got there is baffling to me, but not surprising given the responses thus far. I can kinda see this is about as much of a waste of time as I thought, though. You used to occasionally get some meaningful discussion here years ago, sadly those days also seem long gone. You seem more concerned with calling everyone sheeple than leveling any specific complaints against third wave feminism. What are you getting out of this?
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Jan 24, 2017 15:37
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Bud I really don't understand what it is you're trying to argue for, or against. As best I can tell you're arguing against the concept of shared ideology which, well, is patently silly. People have ideas and ideas are catching, some of them are even correct. You seem to be arguing that being a bold, rugged, individual with your own brilliant unique ideas is important which, well, I don't understand. ideas aren't better for their novelty. If you want to lay out some specific stuff you disagree with I'm happy to have an argument with you about it but I'm gonna need something more concrete to work with before I can offer anything concrete back.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:37
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OwlFancier posted:No seriously what you're describing is someone with absolutely no coherent political position. If you you just dislike collective ideological motivation and most attempts to communicate that ideology that rules you out of like, nearly all effective politics. There is no political stance that does not engage in all of those short of some malformed belief that it is possible to be "apolitical" and just accept the prevailing politics of the time. Not only that, it's a really convenient way to dismiss issues of systemic discrimination. If a group of people take issue with some discrimination that is not explicitly spelled out in law, and you don't think it's personally relevant, then they're just a mindless groupthinking mob. That must be why all their complaints sound similar. (e: it also give a nice out to errors in logic - "well, a bunch of people said I was using silly circular logic, so it's groupthink and cannot possibly be an obvious and valid critique!" Enrico Furby posted:I really don't know why you keep going on about this because I have never said anything about being apolitical. Your argument is the same argument I use against the metric fuckton of people in this country who go "FUCKIN POLITICS MAN IT DONT EVEN MATTER". How you got there is baffling to me, but not surprising given the responses thus far. I can kinda see this is about as much of a waste of time as I thought, though. You used to occasionally get some meaningful discussion here years ago, sadly those days also seem long gone. So far, you have failed to post any critique of feminism besides an unsupported "it's all groupthink" assertion, and then dismissed the thread because nobody has responded to your critiques, so therefore it's all a groupthinky waste of time. Space Gopher fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 15:38
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When was this? In the good old days of libertarian D&D? If so, lol. Also I think people will start engaging your groundbreaking critique of third-wave feminism when you actually post it insteasd of whining about how you're not listened to.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:38
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I'm going to guess his critique is going to be that sometimes feminism makes him uncomfortable and that shouldn't be allowed.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:41
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7c Nickel posted:I'm going to guess his critique is going to be that sometimes feminism makes him uncomfortable and that shouldn't be allowed. That's pretty much what he has already said.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:43
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