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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Boo, no Gunner talent for Ciphers I am still going to be running my pistol packing cypher to once more adopt the inquisitorial role.
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Mar 30, 2018 22:19
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sebmojo posted:Good post. I love 'a mildly ridiculous pile of meat'. I think the big sticking point with souls is that sometimes, they appear to stay discrete and are sent to the Wheel and return to other bodies relatively intact, like in the cases of Watchers who remember their previous lives, or even in Persoq's case where it is still recognizably "theirs" even if its now a deer soul. It also seems like there's a process where souls can fragmented down into basically the soul version of a protein slurry (if we're using the idea of a soul as roughly equivalent to an organ) that can then be used to make new "souls" in a recombinant fashion, augment existing souls, and so on. So they tend to stay relatively similar as they enter and re-enter use, but not always, and some processes appear to be able to change that in greater or lesser degrees. So if you're not really thinking about it, the general track of a single soul through the Wheel is similar enough to the Judeo-Christian model that it can appear that each soul is somehow unique. Each soul seems like its usually mostly preserved from entity to entity, or you couldn't really track them like Sagani does Persoq, or how Ciphers or Watchers can read past lives, or how Awakened appear to work. But it doesn't have to be, and its not particularly bad or dangerous if its not, and I think they're changed to a greater or lesser extent every time they pass through the Wheel. Sometimes they just don't change much, and sometimes they change a lot. And those changes are where you get, and use, small soul-proteins for changing, growing, and making souls, plus whatever gets lost to Rymrgand (there's also a process by which souls seem able to grow and change while the people are alive, but I'm less clear on how that works). But also, the people of Eora can be wrong about souls. They seem to think of souls as if they're discrete too, and that's adding to the confusion. IIRC, they view the Awakened as having multiple active souls, and I think its more that they're an instance of the "same" (with greater or lesser changes through the Wheel) soul that for some reason happened to, uh, wake up with both its prior and current conformations. I can't be sure, but I don't think any of Maerwald's various lives ever existed concurrently, because they're all the same soul that just changes a bit as it grows with the new body. So the Huana might actually be pretty close: the concept of reincarnation (with some drift) seems pretty close, but they're wrong about there being any real order to it. But I could be really wrong about all of this.
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Mar 30, 2018 22:40
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What I find interesting about souls is that they do seem to be capable of persisting without a corresponding body. Rowynna, Dalton's lover trapped in an amulet, is an example of that. Edit: And of course, there's Ethelmoer who transferred his personality to a statue so he could keep working in the sanitarium. And the Devil of Caroc whose soul is trapped in a construct. So the soul does seem to be the seat of consciousness, with the body being a host rather than a necessary component. Samuel Clemens fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Mar 30, 2018 |
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Mar 30, 2018 22:52
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Samuel Clemens posted:What I find interesting about souls is that they do seem to be capable of persisting without a corresponding body. Rowynna, Dalton's lover trapped in an amulet, is an example of that. Except Blights, kinda, because afaik Blights are what happens when you pull a soul out of the aether to infuse it with elemental powers because gently caress it, why not? 
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Mar 30, 2018 23:02
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I don't think we've mentioned yet the fact that when you force a soul to stay in a dead body, it starts to think other people look rather tasty.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:05
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:patch notes up: They went with reducing hostile effect duration on Resolve too, which seems unexpected.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:09
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Ravenfood posted:Agreed, its a solid description in general. The key mistakes here are: A) Watchers do not remember their past lives as a rule, the PC and Maerwald are exceptions to the norm. B) Memories and experiences of past lives remain to varying degrees but that’s not the same thig as a soul retaining identity. The Watcher may remember key points of trauma from the Inquisitor’s life but are they the same person? No of course not they lived completely different lives, with different choices and were shaped by those choices and experiences. That their memories were written to the same hard drive does not make them the same program.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:12
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Wizard Styles posted:That's also every spirit enemy. Are spirits fully conscious though? I always assumed they were basically echoes of souls which did not properly transfer back to the wheel and thus essentially incapable of autonomous decisions. Although I suppose that wouldn't explain the phantom at the top of the lighthouse.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:13
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En Garde Motherfuckers posted:They went with reducing hostile effect duration on Resolve too, which seems unexpected. Good idea. I think I would've preferred it affecting spell damage, but whatever.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:14
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Samuel Clemens posted:What I find interesting about souls is that they do seem to be capable of persisting without a corresponding body. Rowynna, Dalton's lover trapped in an amulet, is an example of that. Yes and no. It is the seat of consciousness...because in all those cases the souls in question haven’t been cleansed by the Wheel and reset. By all indications a soul has to be shaped by experiences in the flesh to become a seat of consciousness. It cannot, fresh from the Beyond, attain consciousness and independent thought. That we know of anyway.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:15
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Captain Oblivious posted:The key mistakes here are: But I think we're saying the same thing. You're just calling the soul the hard drive in this case. I'm saying that its largely the same "entity" that moves from person to person, but the process of moving through the Wheel is what (usually) removes the memory, personality, etc. I'm not saying that the multiple instances of the same soul are going to be necessarily similar, I'm saying its largely the same soul. But the extent that two subsequent people who have the same soul would be the same person seems pretty limited if at all. The soul and personhood aren't the same at all, though personhood seems to require a soul. Which has been used by a ton of people before you, and there may be some small amount of bleeding. Souls (with some drift) are shared across beings. Identity isn't, with a few exceptions.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:26
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Samuel Clemens posted:What I find interesting about souls is that they do seem to be capable of persisting without a corresponding body. Rowynna, Dalton's lover trapped in an amulet, is an example of that. They have to be contained within something though. When you soul read Thaos it makes it sound like he'd die if outside a body too long.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:50
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Samuel Clemens posted:What I find interesting about souls is that they do seem to be capable of persisting without a corresponding body. Rowynna, Dalton's lover trapped in an amulet, is an example of that. This reminds me, I wonder what happens to the keeper of Caed Nua. I hope you can find her and make her a figurehead for your ship. Captain Oblivious posted:Yes and no. It is the seat of consciousness...because in all those cases the souls in question haven’t been cleansed by the Wheel and reset. By all indications a soul has to be shaped by experiences in the flesh to become a seat of consciousness. It cannot, fresh from the Beyond, attain consciousness and independent thought. This is why Constructs act the way they do, but Devil is fully sentient.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:51
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Hodgepodge posted:I don't think we've mentioned yet the fact that when you force a soul to stay in a dead body, it starts to think other people look rather tasty. I thought that's because you can gain some residual soul energy from eating meat that had a living soul in it. Eating vessel flesh probably just makes you more hungry.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:52
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Ravenfood posted:I meant how Watchers can trace other people's souls, but yeah, you're right. But Aloth isn't just remembering Iselmyr's life, Iselmyr is capable of actively responding to events. Yeah that’s basically my understanding as well. Incidents like Iselmyr are interesting because while they’re exceptional, they also if anything drive home the point of how the soul very much ISN’T a discrete singular person otherwise the whole Iselmyr situation makes no sense. These are effectively two distinct persons cohabitating in a single body, which is what the Wheel is explicitly supposed to prevent but sometimes poo poo just goes wrong and an identity doesn’t get reformatted right or at all.
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Mar 30, 2018 23:53
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Guys there's more game out now we can stop debating the lore
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Mar 30, 2018 23:58
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I don't understand the penetration changes. I thought penetration worked pretty well in POE1?
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Mar 31, 2018 00:02
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Nasgate posted:This reminds me, I wonder what happens to the keeper of Caed Nua. I hope you can find her and make her a figurehead for your ship. Josh Sawyer tweeted a picture of her reduced pretty much to a bust sitting on a plinth or small pillar on your ship.
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Mar 31, 2018 00:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:edit: capping attributes at 35 is . . . interesting, probably good, but definitely interesting Honestly that's kind of disappointing. It isn't going to ruin the game for me or anything but if you're the kind of lunatic that can somehow get your Resolve up to 44 or whatever then you deserve to be effectively immune to negative statuses. Mymla posted:I don't understand the penetration changes. I thought penetration worked pretty well in POE1? Apparently a fair number of people complained about how it worked in vanilla PoE1, so they added Immune enemies in White March and then completely changed how it worked in 2, only to find that another (equally large?) group liked how it worked and didn't want any changes. The current system works fairly well because the values are editable in a text file, so if you want a system like in PoE1 you can just reduce the lack of penetration penalty or add additional tiers so the full penalty doesn't kick in until -5 pen or whatever. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 00:18
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Samuel Clemens posted:Are spirits fully conscious though? I always assumed they were basically echoes of souls which did not properly transfer back to the wheel and thus essentially incapable of autonomous decisions. Although I suppose that wouldn't explain the phantom at the top of the lighthouse.
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Mar 31, 2018 00:20
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Mymla posted:I don't understand the penetration changes. I thought penetration worked pretty well in POE1? Ropekid wanted everyone to constantly do math on which weapon is fractionally better vs what armor and to then switch weapons all the time, but, since no-one played his game correctly he had to make the system more punishing.
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Mar 31, 2018 00:23
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Nasgate posted:This reminds me, I wonder what happens to the keeper of Caed Nua. I hope you can find her and make her a figurehead for your ship. Good news this is almost literally what happens. She also sells all your ship to buy the boat after Eothas wrecks Caed Nua.
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Mar 31, 2018 00:25
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The fact that all this soul poo poo can go weird and wrong and different in so many ways is also a nice connection between "soul science" and "biology." Sometimes that roll of the biological dice that is birth leads to a person being born with physical disabilities. Or mental disabilities. Or, in Eora, soul-related disabilities.
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Mar 31, 2018 00:36
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Guys there's more game out now we can stop debating the lore I'm not in the beta so I can't make a kind wayfarer that eats people right now. 
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Mar 31, 2018 00:38
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Nasgate posted:This reminds me, I wonder what happens to the keeper of Caed Nua. I hope you can find her and make her a figurehead for your ship. If I had to guess why Devil is different, it’s probably because of time. From what we saw in Thaos’ mind, body hopping was pretty loving hard even for him. He starts to “unravel” straight away. Devil was created through a procedure that explicitly aimed to transfer her directly from flesh to metal. Minimal time disembodied. Animats are probably (but this is only an educated guess) made with soul stuff that’s been lying around for a bit.
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Mar 31, 2018 00:48
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Random rear end in a top hat posted:Honestly that's kind of disappointing. It isn't going to ruin the game for me or anything but if you're the kind of lunatic that can somehow get your Resolve up to 44 or whatever then you deserve to be effectively immune to negative statuses. It's easier to pump your stats in the beta. Drugs with maxed alchemy give +8 to stats, then an Inspiration gives +5, with uncapped stats it's pretty easy to game out a drug monk that basically breaks the affliction system. I'm gonna be mucking around with character creation for a while tonight, there are a lot of changes. So far my only major annoyance is that ciphers, priests, rogues, and as far as I can tell everyone except Rangers, can't pick Gunner, Marksman, or Shot on the Run talent, so while you can make a Melee Ranger just fine and it works, you can't make a Ranged NonRanger in the same way. edit: also there may be a memory leak, not sure, poo poo takes forever to load a savegame and it takes longer over time Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 00:50
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Captain Oblivious posted:Yes and no. It is the seat of consciousness...because in all those cases the souls in question haven’t been cleansed by the Wheel and reset. By all indications a soul has to be shaped by experiences in the flesh to become a seat of consciousness. It cannot, fresh from the Beyond, attain consciousness and independent thought. Now I'm wondering if some ambitious animancer ever tried to cut out the middle man and tap straight into the Wheel.
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Mar 31, 2018 01:08
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Samuel Clemens posted:Now I'm wondering if some ambitious animancer ever tried to cut out the middle man and tap straight into the Wheel. I'm honestly not sure if even the Engwithans knew how the gently caress the Wheel works. The whole thing with Od Nua suggests the answer is "ssssort of? but mostly not"
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Mar 31, 2018 01:12
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There was some kind of lore entry on their Twitter account implying the Engwithans had some kind of control over the wheel
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Mar 31, 2018 01:20
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The difference just in terms of technical competence and UI in this update is pretty crazy. Everything looks and feels and sounds way better.
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Mar 31, 2018 01:37
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The performance improvements in this build are considerable. i5 8400k GTX 1080 16 GB DDR 2666 In the previous build, I'd get ~48 FPS in Tikiwara at both 1440p and 4k. Now, I'm getting 60 FPS at 4k with 4x MSAA (*edit - alt tabbing bug fixed by restarting and, uh, alt tabbing more). Will do the actual gameplay more, but atm I'm quite happy to see the progress Obsidian's made. isk fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 01:46
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ProfessorCirno posted:The fact that all this soul poo poo can go weird and wrong and different in so many ways is also a nice connection between "soul science" and "biology." Sometimes that roll of the biological dice that is birth leads to a person being born with physical disabilities. Or mental disabilities. Or, in Eora, soul-related disabilities. Yeah. A naive understanding of science is that it is mechanical and consistent like Newtonian physics; a more nuanced understanding is that it is full of weird emergent niche cases and probability (such as Brownian motion) was increasingly relevant to the even the most deterministic sciences even before quantum physics came along.
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Mar 31, 2018 01:57
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Samuel Clemens posted:Now I'm wondering if some ambitious animancer ever tried to cut out the middle man and tap straight into the Wheel. Iirc, that was sort of what Concelhaut was planning to use your soul for.
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Mar 31, 2018 02:01
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Ropekid wanted everyone to constantly do math on which weapon is fractionally better vs what armor and to then switch weapons all the time, but, since no-one played his game correctly he had to make the system more punishing. The first implementation of DT/Pen was severe because I was trying to make the drop very clear and compelling. I.e., I was trying to address the player complaints. It was too severe, so we made the progression milder. It can be made milder still through modding, which is something we put a large effort into supporting. I don’t know why you seem to believe I’m making these changes out of some personal frustration with how people play the game. Much like your (literally, from you) feedback about the lack of counters in the game caused me to pursue the keyword counter system, other players’ feedback made me re-examine DT, rest mechanics, Resolve/Might, and a bunch of other things. I think it’s fair to characterize me as incompetent if you don’t think I’ve achieved what I set out to do, but I do think it’s unfair to characterize me as someone who designs things out of pettiness or maliciousness.
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Mar 31, 2018 02:08
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Ropekid wanted everyone to constantly do math on which weapon is fractionally better vs what armor and to then switch weapons all the time, but, since no-one played his game correctly he had to make the system more punishing. Jokes on him. I never had to understood or figure out the mechanical nuances on Story Mode. Edit: ropekid gets his revenge on me by writing a detailed and reasoned explanation for gameplay changes right above my lovely joke post. OhFunny fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 02:10
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Hodgepodge posted:Iirc, that was sort of what Concelhaut was planning to use your soul for. Can anyone be a watcher through similar random happenstance or is it some sort of "you need a special strong soul" thing? Does that mean they are still a watcher when they reincarnate? I didn't really think about any of that poo poo until concelhaut mentioned wanting to experiment with your soul. I always assumed being a watcher was some sort of physical affliction where your body and soul arent tethered together quite right* so you can sort of observe/interact with the spirit world in a way normal people cant, which would mean your soul itself isnt actually any different, but spooky skull man probably knows more about souls than me. * edit: the reason i thought this is since the trigger for making you a watcher seemed to be either surviving a soulnado or being too close to the spirit ripping out machine Clever Spambot fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 02:12
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rope kid posted:I have explained here and elsewhere the reasons for the changes, which were due to 1) player feedback that DT felt mushy, which made those players feel like they weren’t clear on when it really made sense to switch weapon/damage types and 2) player feedback and internal feedback that high damage attacks (e.g. a dragon’s breath) made DT largely irrelevant 3) making low damage attacks that penetrate armor requires DT bypass, which was clunky to design around and fed back into the first issue: when is it advantageous to switch damage/attack types vs. staying with what you have? Consider: it is more fun to imagine you as a cruel and capricious God, toying with us for your own inscrutable purposes.
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Mar 31, 2018 02:14
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Clever Spambot posted:Can anyone be a watcher through similar random happenstance or is it some sort of "you need a special strong soul" thing? Does that mean they are still a watcher when they reincarnate? I don't think it's known or entirely consistent. I think the common factor is awakening to some degree of awareness of your past lives, which I suppose would effectively be accessing the knowledge stored in your soul rather than in your brain.
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Mar 31, 2018 02:16
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ProfessorCirno posted:So yeah. Souls in Pillars are...kinda special, but not THAT special, which is sort of the point of the setting - cracking open the fantasy aspects and then ripping them apart. Souls aren't poo poo, the gods are fake, only trust your fists, police will never help you. And gunpowder. You can also trust gunpowder.
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Mar 31, 2018 02:38
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Hodgepodge posted:Consider: it is more fun to imagine you as a cruel and capricious God, toying with us for your own inscrutable purposes. 
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Mar 31, 2018 02:52
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