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Pwnstar
Dec 9, 2007

Who wants some waffles?



Will Pallegina lose Wrath of the Five Suns if she joins another order?

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X_Toad
Apr 2, 2011


rope kid posted:

We're revising that UI element, but it's the cost to use the ability. Each ability is associated with a power source. E.g. paladins use Zeal, fighters use Discipline. While wizards, priests, and druids have spell use broken up into level-based chunks (e.g. two 1st, two 2nd, and one 3rd level spell), most of the martial classes draw from a common pool. The easiest comparison would be to PoE1 monks, whose abilities all collectively pull from Wounds. In this screenshot, Pallegina has 9 Zeal. She could go wild with Flames of Devotion nine times or use Sworn Enemy four times with one Flames of Devotion, or use Reviving Exhortation twice and Flames of Devotion once. Or Reviving Exhortation once and Flames of Devotion five times. You get the idea.
Remind us again, is the Power Source a per-encounter resource or a per-rest one?

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006





X_Toad posted:

Remind us again, is the Power Source a per-encounter resource or a per-rest one?

Power Source is the per encounter resource. Every class has access to a universal "Empower" resource that they can spend to increase or alter the effect of their next action with.

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"

Grimey Drawer

rope kid posted:

We're revising that UI element, but it's the cost to use the ability. Each ability is associated with a power source. E.g. paladins use Zeal, fighters use Discipline. While wizards, priests, and druids have spell use broken up into level-based chunks (e.g. two 1st, two 2nd, and one 3rd level spell), most of the martial classes draw from a common pool. The easiest comparison would be to PoE1 monks, whose abilities all collectively pull from Wounds. In this screenshot, Pallegina has 9 Zeal. She could go wild with Flames of Devotion nine times or use Sworn Enemy four times with one Flames of Devotion, or use Reviving Exhortation twice and Flames of Devotion once. Or Reviving Exhortation once and Flames of Devotion five times. You get the idea.

So, is the idea every class's power is internally balanced or really situationally useful? Otherwise will it not turn into "spam the best ability always and forever"?

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




bongwizzard posted:

So, is the idea every class's power is internally balanced or really situationally useful? Otherwise will it not turn into "spam the best ability always and forever"?

I'm guessing they're going towards situationally useful. I mean, look at Pillars 1. Outside of spells, which are keeping their levels, its not like Paladins had a bunch of abilities that just did damage. They had a bonus damage, a heal, a revive etc.

Even Rangers had things like mark target, a DoT, a snare etc.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


It depends on the situation. It may be that in a single combat, Sworn Enemy-ing a target and FoDing them down makes sense and you never have cause to use Liberating Exhortation or Reviving Exhortation. That can also happen in Pillars 1, but we just restricted the individual abilities. Abilities do scale in power in Deadfire, but they're designed to remain less powerful than higher level abilities, so a higher cost ability should be more powerful if it makes sense in the situation. You could FoD over and over if you wanted to, but Sacred Immolation, which costs 4 Zeal (IIRC) is going to do more in a shorter amount of time to more enemies.

Entropy238
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

I'm kind of confused how the power source thing works now.

My understanding was that when a character levels they get 3 power points and 1 virtual point. These can be "redeemed" to level up a class of the player's choosing by acquiring that particular kind of power source on level up e.g. taking 1 Paladin level = 3 Zeal.

But power source types are now also the per encounter resources as well? So a level 18 Paladin is hypothetically going to be able to use Flames of Devotion 54 times in one fight?

I also thought that power source investment was going to lead to better scaling of abilities too e.g. a Paladin with 18 levels will have better have a "better" Sacred immolation than one with 11 levels ... same for other abilities too like Carnage, Sneak attack.

edit: saw post above. So basically they're going to make it that by the time you're level 18 you'll have better abilities and you won't want to use Flame of Devotion 54 times.

Entropy238 fucked around with this message at 23:20 on May 5, 2017

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"

Grimey Drawer

rope kid posted:

It depends on the situation. It may be that in a single combat, Sworn Enemy-ing a target and FoDing them down makes sense and you never have cause to use Liberating Exhortation or Reviving Exhortation. That can also happen in Pillars 1, but we just restricted the individual abilities. Abilities do scale in power in Deadfire, but they're designed to remain less powerful than higher level abilities, so a higher cost ability should be more powerful if it makes sense in the situation. You could FoD over and over if you wanted to, but Sacred Immolation, which costs 4 Zeal (IIRC) is going to do more in a shorter amount of time to more enemies.

You are as reassuring as always but I am still wray.


Also, just curious here, but do you have any seafood allergies? And say if somehow you had some like gills sewn in, how much salinity do you think you could tolerate? Like in ppm? Just spitballing some ideas with the boys.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Currently, the pool maxes out at 11. In the screenshot I posted, I think Pallegina was 13th level. Yes, you could FoD 11 times in a fight, but FoD is not a very potent ability when you're in the teens, level-wise.

rope kid fucked around with this message at 23:49 on May 5, 2017

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES


I'm killing so many dragons... Will PoE 2 address dragon conservation efforts?

Akong
Nov 6, 2010

Xaurips are reptilian humanoids about the size of orlans.


Stumpus posted:

Starting the game over since I got the xpacs. What is the crunchiest build this thread can recommend?

Do a pirate that starts the battle by firing a blunderbuss, firing another blunderbuss, and then switching to a sabre to cut fools. That's the true pirate way.

Get that swashbuckler ready for Deadfire.

Mr.Pibbleton
Feb 3, 2006

Aleuts rock, chummer.



Accretionist posted:

I'm killing so many dragons... Will PoE 2 address dragon conservation efforts?

Well given the requirements to become a dragon, you're really just facilitating promotions for drakes and wyrmlings.

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES


Oh, god, wyrms and drakes are kids?

Roobanguy
May 30, 2011



Accretionist posted:

Oh, god, wyrms and drakes are kids?

yes.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Wurms are tiny baby dragons with an animal level of intelligence, and they grow into drakes, which are much larger and smarter, with some even capable of speech. Old drakes become dragons, cunning and wise, with such strength that they can only be taken down by a full party of six travelling adventurers, or one cheap bullshit kiting piece of poo poo.

chaosapiant
Oct 10, 2012

White Line Fever



Accretionist posted:

Oh, god, wyrms and drakes are kids?

Adorable! Good luck with your first dragon fight!

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


I remember being excited at the solution Obsidian would find to make adult dragons appear very intelligent while they weren't capable of speech. Turns out, their solution was... telepathy. I love the game, but that was a groanworthy moment.

Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!


Fair Bear Maiden posted:

I remember being excited at the solution Obsidian would find to make adult dragons appear very intelligent while they weren't capable of speech. Turns out, their solution was... telepathy. I love the game, but that was a groanworthy moment.

Wait, what? I thought they were just speaking to me. I don't remember them saying the dragons wouldn't be able to talk, either.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


Taear posted:

Wait, what? I thought they were just speaking to me. I don't remember them saying the dragons wouldn't be able to talk, either.

It was part of a Kickstarter lore update. Let me dig it up.

X_Toad
Apr 2, 2011


I think only Cail the Silent uses telepathy. All the dragons and other drakes use normal speech.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


Mmh, I can't find the update. Chalk it up to me misremembering then.

CottonWolf
Jul 20, 2012

Good ideas generator



rope kid posted:

Currently, the pool maxes out at 11. In the screenshot I posted, I think Pallegina was 13th level. Yes, you could FoD 11 times in a fight, but FoD is not a very potent ability when you're in the teens, level-wise.

So is it basically a per encounter refilling mana system now? I'm not entirely clear.

X_Toad
Apr 2, 2011


CottonWolf posted:

So is it basically a per encounter refilling mana system now?
Pretty much. The main difference would be that each class has its own specific mana pool.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

I know some people are going to cry that it's "dumbing down" the resources (similar to D&D 4E "dumbing down" casters and "giving everybody spells :byodood:") but if it ends up with a more balanced layout where I don't feel like I'm intentionally hamstringing myself by choosing not to bring a wizard or a druid, I'll be pleased as punch.

Have we gotten any info on the different class kits besides acknowledging that there will be a spiritshift-focused druid kit?

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


It's not really any simpler than it was before as far as martial classes are concerned, if anything it allows players to experiment more with their tactics.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Dick Burglar posted:

I know some people are going to cry that it's "dumbing down" the resources (similar to D&D 4E "dumbing down" casters and "giving everybody spells :byodood:") but if it ends up with a more balanced layout where I don't feel like I'm intentionally hamstringing myself by choosing not to bring a wizard or a druid, I'll be pleased as punch.

Have we gotten any info on the different class kits besides acknowledging that there will be a spiritshift-focused druid kit?

We know a few of them. Rangers have a ghost heart one where they lose the permanent companion in exchange for being able to temp summon a more powerful spirit one in combat. Fighters have one that gets bonuses for switching weapons in combat to match enemy resistances. Monks have one that has a higher wounds threshold in exchange for getting more benefits from :catdrugs:

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


There's also a berserker subclass for barbarians. Their Frenzy is more powerful, but they are always Confused when they Frenzy (everything is friend or foe, including Carnage, and they have -5 Int).

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

rope kid posted:

There's also a berserker subclass for barbarians. Their Frenzy is more powerful, but they are always Confused when they Frenzy (everything is friend or foe, including Carnage, and they have -5 Int).

That sounds amusing but I don't see how it won't be horribly weak unless I'm misunderstanding how it works. The confuse debuff is one of the fastest ways to a wipe in Poe1 that I can think of (the other being charm/dominate). Worse still, if you can't choose what you're targeting you not only have to worry about friendly fire but about your Barb targeting enemy tanks rather than enemy casters/dps.

Octo1
May 7, 2009


rope kid posted:

There's also a berserker subclass for barbarians. Their Frenzy is more powerful, but they are always Confused when they Frenzy (everything is friend or foe, including Carnage, and they have -5 Int).

Does that mean they have to pick Frenzy at Lv1?

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!






Morbid Hound

Ginette Reno posted:

That sounds amusing but I don't see how it won't be horribly weak unless I'm misunderstanding how it works. The confuse debuff is one of the fastest ways to a wipe in Poe1 that I can think of (the other being charm/dominate). Worse still, if you can't choose what you're targeting you not only have to worry about friendly fire but about your Barb targeting enemy tanks rather than enemy casters/dps.

Sounds like that will get changed in playtesting unless there are a lot fun dialogue options for low int solo runs.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Sounds like that will get changed in playtesting unless there are a lot fun dialogue options for low int solo runs.

I think you just get the -int when Frenzying so your AoE is smaller from what that says. Having a subclass with an innate -5 Int would be weird.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Ginette Reno posted:

That sounds amusing but I don't see how it won't be horribly weak unless I'm misunderstanding how it works. The confuse debuff is one of the fastest ways to a wipe in Poe1 that I can think of (the other being charm/dominate). Worse still, if you can't choose what you're targeting you not only have to worry about friendly fire but about your Barb targeting enemy tanks rather than enemy casters/dps.
Maybe Confused works differently in Deadfire and just means that all abilities are friendly-fire neutral? So a Confused Priest casting a heal spell will heal everyone in the target zone regardless of affiliation or a Confused Druid's Lightning Storm hits any eligible target instead of just enemies, maybe. That's the only way that tradeoff seems worthwhile, unless rope kid's just loving around with us. Your barb now has a much more dangerous Frenzy, but will splash to allies (and have a smaller splash radius).

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!






Morbid Hound

Zore posted:

I think you just get the -int when Frenzying so your AoE is smaller from what that says. Having a subclass with an innate -5 Int would be weird.

I will frenzy mid-conversation

NO I WILL NOT FETCH

I WILL SMASH

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Ravenfood posted:

Maybe Confused works differently in Deadfire and just means that all abilities are friendly-fire neutral? So a Confused Priest casting a heal spell will heal everyone in the target zone regardless of affiliation or a Confused Druid's Lightning Storm hits any eligible target instead of just enemies, maybe. That's the only way that tradeoff seems worthwhile, unless rope kid's just loving around with us. Your barb now has a much more dangerous Frenzy, but will splash to allies (and have a smaller splash radius).

Yeah I could see it making Carnage turn into a friendly fire ability. That would still make it highly debatable as a kit worth taking because dps is not as great when it's killing your party too.

I guess you could somewhat get around the limitations by having a smaller front line and making your other front line guys have extremely high defenses so that the barb doesn't hit them too badly.

e: The comparable ability from Poe1 is probably Powder Burns which is extremely tricky to use well and I'm not sure is worth the investment usually

Ginette Reno fucked around with this message at 22:31 on May 6, 2017

ratchild13
Apr 28, 2006



Fun Shoe

Sounds like it could be interesting if you just throw your zerker into melee alone, and have a ranged line backing him up, maybe if they stack one type of dmg, and have a tank with him stacking that type of defense, negate some of the penalty.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Ravenfood posted:

Maybe Confused works differently in Deadfire and just means that all abilities are friendly-fire neutral? So a Confused Priest casting a heal spell will heal everyone in the target zone regardless of affiliation or a Confused Druid's Lightning Storm hits any eligible target instead of just enemies, maybe.
That is correct. Confused is -5 Int and that gameplay effect.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Ginette Reno posted:

That would still make it highly debatable as a kit worth taking
Imagine a world where the base class is arguably as valid a choice as a subclass.

*Lord Richard Attenborough voice* Welcome... to Deadfire!

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!






Morbid Hound

ratchild13 posted:

Sounds like it could be interesting if you just throw your zerker into melee alone, and have a ranged line backing him up, maybe if they stack one type of dmg, and have a tank with him stacking that type of defense, negate some of the penalty.

Oh yeah, you could do that, like the Pale Elf Fireball WIzard Party in PoE 1.

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013




Ginette Reno posted:

e: The comparable ability from Poe1 is probably Powder Burns which is extremely tricky to use well and I'm not sure is worth the investment usually

Powder Burns was critting my Pallegina/Eder for triple digit damage, so it definitely hit too hard for me to be willing to tag my own guys with it with any real frequency, and the positioning was too drat finicky to be worth the effort, especially when you consider that guns are generally worse than bows at the high end already AND that Powder Burns means you have to deal with the Ranger blinding themselves.

Powder Burns is an ability I REALLY wanted to like but which just had so many downsides that I could never find a situation where it was worth taking, especially since it competes against "oh your awesome bow now shoots two arrows".

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Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

rope kid posted:

Imagine a world where the base class is arguably as valid a choice as a subclass.

*Lord Richard Attenborough voice* Welcome... to Deadfire!

I'm pretty excited about that given that Poe1 already has an absolute massive amount of potential builds you can do which are all valid and fun. Adding subclasses to that is going to be awesome.

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