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Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

Geektox posted:

I'm not exactly familiar with Avellone's work since i wasn't big into western RPGs growing up and PoE is basically my first IE game, but I don't understand all the love on the Internet for Durance at all. Maybe it's because I'm still early in the game but so far he's been not much more than "haha I'm a kooky rear end in a top hat who knows more stuff than you do".

Like I can't tell if I'm supposed to be reacting to all the poo poo he says as world-changing revelations or the rantings of an edgelord but either way it's not really adding to my enjoyment of the game. I'm hoping the character develops in a big way.

By contrast I had a big dumb smile on my face every time Eder talks about animals and it's enough to make me never want to remove him from my party.

People love Durance because he's a great character not because he's a great person. He's a racist misogynistic zealot but his fundamental character arc, his self delusions and stoic avoidance of the evidence that would explain his predicament, is a compelling one. He's also worthy of praise because frankly Priests in dungeons and dragons settings rarely convincingly play the role. They mouth a generic prayer every once in a while, but how often do they have dogma, ideology, conviction like Durance does? Basically never!

His character is never going to develop to become friendly or nice. To enjoy Durance you have to be able to disentangle your opinion of a character as a person from what they represent as a story.

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CommissarMega
Nov 18, 2008

THUNDERDOME LOSER
Also, if you're willing to stick with Durance's arc, he actually evolves and changes while remaining Durance at his core. For all that he's pleasant, Eder doesn't really change, at least not to me- he's a good, animal-loving guy at the beginning, and remains so at the end. While Durance stays a foul-mouthed, fanatical misanthropist to the end as well, how he chooses to express his madness can be changed.

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!

Eder changes - he loses his ability to be in denial about his brother and the war.

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007

Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded.

Clanpot Shake posted:

Is there a good write-up somewhere explaining Kreia and Avallone's involvement? Been a long while since I played KOTOR.

I'm of the opinion that Scorchy's LP is probably the best analysis out there of the game and its characters. Bonus points that goes through the game as a Blaster Jedi:

https://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/

And despite my comments earlier, I actually think Kreia is one of the best characters to come out of Star Wars. I just think Avellone revisits the archetype a little too often.

Gobblecoque
Sep 6, 2011

CommissarMega posted:

You're kind of on the right track here with why I personally like him, at least. And yes, you're supposed to look at him like he's a mental case.

Durance is almost like a medieval fantasy version of Trevor from Grand Theft Auto 5 and for that I love him.

Captain Oblivious posted:

People love Durance because he's a great character not because he's a great person. He's a racist misogynistic zealot but his fundamental character arc, his self delusions and stoic avoidance of the evidence that would explain his predicament, is a compelling one. He's also worthy of praise because frankly Priests in dungeons and dragons settings rarely convincingly play the role. They mouth a generic prayer every once in a while, but how often do they have dogma, ideology, conviction like Durance does? Basically never!

His character is never going to develop to become friendly or nice. To enjoy Durance you have to be able to disentangle your opinion of a character as a person from what they represent as a story.

Definitely agree with this too.

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013


Captain Oblivious posted:

People love Durance because he's a great character not because he's a great person. He's a racist misogynistic zealot but his fundamental character arc, his self delusions and stoic avoidance of the evidence that would explain his predicament, is a compelling one. He's also worthy of praise because frankly Priests in dungeons and dragons settings rarely convincingly play the role. They mouth a generic prayer every once in a while, but how often do they have dogma, ideology, conviction like Durance does? Basically never!

This is it right here.

Most priests you find in these games are basically just mages with healing spells. You might occasionally hear them yell "For <god>!" as a battlecry, but that's about the extent of it. You never get the feeling that their religion means all that much to them, and it rarely plays an important role in their character arcs.

Durance, though. He believes.

hangedman1984
Jul 25, 2012

Basic Chunnel posted:

Eder changes - he loses his ability to be in denial about his brother and the war.

He does remain a well-meaning racist though.

Geektox
Aug 1, 2012

Good people don't rip other people's arms off.
I wasn't necessary looking for Durance to become pleasant, per se, I think I just find his version of being holier-than-thou kind of exhausting but I suppose that fits with his character. I guess what he represents just isn't something I enjoy engaging with in games and is more a personal preference thing than anything else.

Trevor from GTA V is an interesting comparison because I really liked that character, because he's just goofy in how evil he is and represents the tone of the GTA series much better than the other two. HK-47 was another"evil" character I liked a lot because of how goofy he was.

funmanguy
Apr 20, 2006

What time is it?
Durance is one o my favorite characters in any rpg, but Sagani is, and always will be #1.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

Khizan posted:

This is it right here.

Most priests you find in these games are basically just mages with healing spells. You might occasionally hear them yell "For <god>!" as a battlecry, but that's about the extent of it. You never get the feeling that their religion means all that much to them, and it rarely plays an important role in their character arcs.

Durance, though. He believes.

Yeah, exactly. He's just about the only fantasy priest who is enough of a religious fanatic that it makes perfect sense he can set people on fire just by praying about it. Other fantasy priests are never actual fanatics, the closest you ever get is someone like Amoen who's sortof ambivalent but hey he's a career guy and the church has good perks

edit: I like Sagani too because she's just a believeable workaday got a job to do adventurer lady

my favorite overall RPG character is still Nordom though

A Catastrophe
Jun 26, 2014
durance is more of a zealot or prophet style, a doomsayer or heretic, right down to his robe and rope belt and wild eyes and waving around a staff, a moses or a john the baptist or various heretics, as opposed to the bland, generic cleric/priest type favoured by dnd

Airfoil
Sep 10, 2013

I'm a rocket man
Hmm. Pillars 3.06 update incoming?

https://steamdb.info/app/291650/history/?changeid=3067596

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang

Elukka posted:

It really breaks my flow. If you've got turns, you know exactly how long some three turn effect is going to take. If you're real time, you grow an intuitive feeling for how long something lasts.

Sorry, please explain how you need to "grow an intuitive" feeling for estimating how long 5 seconds (with an actual countdown being shown to you when you hover your mouse) is because I don't get it. A second is a second, no matter how long you pause your game.

Random Asshole
Nov 8, 2010

Furism posted:

Sorry, please explain how you need to "grow an intuitive" feeling for estimating how long 5 seconds (with an actual countdown being shown to you when you hover your mouse) is because I don't get it. A second is a second, no matter how long you pause your game.

Just to give one example, Pillars has multiple combat speeds. In turn-based a turn is a turn is a turn, whereas in RTWP 5 seconds on slow is very different from 5 seconds on fast.

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang

Random rear end in a top hat posted:

Just to give one example, Pillars has multiple combat speeds. In turn-based a turn is a turn is a turn, whereas in RTWP 5 seconds on slow is very different from 5 seconds on fast.

I never play in slow mode (just hit pause) so I guess that's why I don't see the problem (also, you can't speed up the game while in-combat I'm pretty sure).

Agnostalgia
Dec 22, 2009
More to the point, events in PoE don't take "5 seconds" except for effect durations. They take an unlisted amount of time to do, followed by an unlisted amount of recovery time, which are modified by four different kinds of speed modifiers that are poorly explained in game and interact in unintuitive ways. These durations are then communicated to the player by way of shrinking blue bars that are basically useless because they don't progress at a uniform speed but instead have a uniform length. Pillars system doesn't give you any really useful information on the action economy in moment-to-moment gameplay, so the people who constantly chime in that the auto-pause makes it basically turn-based are either missing the point or being deliberately disingenuous to dismiss people's complaints.

Gobblecoque
Sep 6, 2011
Personally I never had any issue with time in PoE but in any case at least it's not like Baldur's Gate where duration is measured with such nonsense as rounds and turns and ingame hours. I've been playing the EE after picking it up in the GOG sale and hoo boy does it make me appreciate, like, everything about PoE even more than I already did.

Mr.Pibbleton
Feb 3, 2006

Aleuts rock, chummer.

Gobblecoque posted:

Personally I never had any issue with time in PoE but in any case at least it's not like Baldur's Gate where duration is measured with such nonsense as rounds and turns and ingame hours. I've been playing the EE after picking it up in the GOG sale and hoo boy does it make me appreciate, like, everything about PoE even more than I already did.

Oh yeah, PoE is a vast improvement, although calculating DPS is kinda tricky what with interrupts, reloads, animations and various stat interactions. Still, I'd gladly take pillar's system over any of the infinity engine games's.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Units of time for attack speeds, recovery, and effect durations are displayed in Deadfire.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

rope kid posted:

Units of time for attack speeds, recovery, and effect durations are displayed in Deadfire.

Will we get an in-game DPS calculator?

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

It's possible but it hasn't been a priority for us. DPS should be easier to calculate even without an in-game aid because of how the armor mechanics work in Deadfire. If you're in the main Penetration range, you're doing 100% listed damage. Using the listed Attack Speed and Recovery times, it's pretty straightforward to figure out.

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang

Agnostalgia posted:

More to the point, events in PoE don't take "5 seconds" except for effect durations. They take an unlisted amount of time to do, followed by an unlisted amount of recovery time, which are modified by four different kinds of speed modifiers that are poorly explained in game and interact in unintuitive ways. These durations are then communicated to the player by way of shrinking blue bars that are basically useless because they don't progress at a uniform speed but instead have a uniform length. Pillars system doesn't give you any really useful information on the action economy in moment-to-moment gameplay, so the people who constantly chime in that the auto-pause makes it basically turn-based are either missing the point or being deliberately disingenuous to dismiss people's complaints.

So your issue is the fact that the time values are not spelled out? I can understand but I don't understand how that's a problem really.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

rope kid posted:

It's possible but it hasn't been a priority for us. DPS should be easier to calculate even without an in-game aid because of how the armor mechanics work in Deadfire. If you're in the main Penetration range, you're doing 100% listed damage. Using the listed Attack Speed and Recovery times, it's pretty straightforward to figure out.

Um . . . There are a lot more effects than just attack speed and recovery though, presuming that weapon lashes, weapon -based DoTs, etc., all remain part of the game. I mean I still am not really sure how to calculate the DPS of Tidefall, especially if it gets a lash thrown on it or it's being used by a cipher with soul whip. You have to know if the DoT stacks with itself, if Int or Might effect the DoT and if so how, does the fire lash increase the wounding damage or not, etc.


I mean as far as "should I use Rusty rapier or stone club" type choices, sure, but once you get weapons with weird effects and start stacking those effects then a dps calculator becomes invaluable, especially if the rules on how those effects interact are complex.

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Jun 11, 2017

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!

rope kid posted:

It's possible but it hasn't been a priority for us. DPS should be easier to calculate even without an in-game aid because of how the armor mechanics work in Deadfire. If you're in the main Penetration range, you're doing 100% listed damage. Using the listed Attack Speed and Recovery times, it's pretty straightforward to figure out.
With all due respect, you should never overestimate your audience's willingness to do math.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

There are a lot more effects than just attack speed and recovery though, presuming that weapon lashes, weapon -based DoTs, etc., all remain part of the game.
Those are all still elements of the game, but the mechanics governing most of them are more straightforward, again especially because of the Armor System. We had to do a bunch of weird adjustments to get things like lashes to be effective against armor, but that's not a concern anymore. Whether a flaming weapon does 2 or 12 additional points of damage on a hit, the Burn Penetration defaults to the same value as the attacking weapon, meaning adding it in is more straightforward than it was in PoE.

Those elements are also not things that just go on any ol' weapon anymore. Weapons can be enchanted up from what they start as, but you can't add something where there wasn't something to begin with. E.g. a weapon with bonuses against Kith can have that enchantment increased/modified, but you can't just add Kith Slaying onto a weapon you find.

Basic Chunnel posted:

With all due respect, you should never overestimate your audience's willingness to do math.
The people who aren't willing to do basic arithmetic probably aren't likely to even look at a DPS value if we provided it. We heavily modified the DPS value from F3 in F:NV (and provided a separate DAM value). The people who cared about those values looked at them, thought about them, discussed them, and made choices based on them (and their own theories) but there are hundreds of let's play video series out there that show people scrolling past AMRs and brush guns to use lever-action shotguns with buckshot against NCR heavy troopers.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

One internal argument against providing a DPS value is that the people requesting it the most stridently are also the ones most likely to criticize its specific implementation for not including every conceivable input that could adjust its output, even when those values are target- or circumstance-dependent.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
Wait, are you saying we're all huge grognards


because. . . ok, that's fair

Chairchucker
Nov 14, 2006

to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022




I would like a DPS value so I can, at a glance, say 'OK this weapon is more violent than that weapon, I will use it.'

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

rope kid posted:

It's possible but it hasn't been a priority for us. DPS should be easier to calculate even without an in-game aid because of how the armor mechanics work in Deadfire. If you're in the main Penetration range, you're doing 100% listed damage. Using the listed Attack Speed and Recovery times, it's pretty straightforward to figure out.

Imo don't put in a dps calculator, or have it behind menus. I enjoy min/maxing but if i get too much info i feel like im ocd on an excel spreadsheet vs doing what is the most fun.

Give options to have all the data, but dont put it all out front. For my ocd sanity.

Edit: ah you addressed it heh.

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"
Grimey Drawer
imho give every weapon a "Badass" rating so I can know at a glance which one to use.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006

bongwizzard posted:

imho give every weapon a "Badass" rating so I can know at a glance which one to use.

katana has the biggest badass rating of all, followed shortly by akimbo pistols

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

Dick Burglar posted:

katana has the biggest badass rating of all, followed shortly by akimbo pistols

Akimbo is just x2 badass modifier, i.e., akimbo katanas, akimbo wands, etc.

Entropy238
Oct 21, 2010

Fallen Rib
IMO putting a training dummy in your ship that you can beat the poo poo out of, adjust its stats, allow it to auto attack you back and get some feedback from would do fine as a lore friendly DPS calculator.

edit: Like you don't need spreadsheets or whatever, you just need to be able to:

– Set an interval
– Set the dummy's stats
– Choose whether it auto-attacks you back or not

And then the output would be

– Total Damage done in interval
– Total Damage taken in interval

Entropy238 fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jun 11, 2017

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

Entropy238 posted:

IMO putting a training dummy in your ship that you can beat the poo poo out of, adjust its stats, allow it to auto attack you back and get some feedback from would do fine as a lore friendly DPS calculator.

edit: Like you don't need spreadsheets or whatever, you just need to be able to:

– Set an interval
– Set the dummy's stats
– Choose whether it auto-attacks you back or not

And then the output would be

– Total Damage done in interval
– Total Damage taken in interval

This is a really great idea, especially if you can put armor on the dummy

Ratios and Tendency
Apr 23, 2010

:swoon: MURALI :swoon:


Have it be animancered so you can talk to it and it's really into bdsm.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Hit me baby one more time.

chiefnewo
May 21, 2007

Ratios and Tendency posted:

Have it be animancered so you can talk to it and it's really into bdsm.

Make it have the soul of the most annoying/poorly thought out backer NPC submission.

Prokhor Zakharov
Dec 31, 2008

This is me as I make another great post


Good luck with your depression!

A Catastrophe posted:

I'm quite confident that the people who made silent storm are better at game balance than the people who made pathfinder.

Touche

Avalerion
Oct 19, 2012

Furism posted:

So your issue is the fact that the time values are not spelled out? I can understand but I don't understand how that's a problem really.

I think it's more like... an an actual turn based game, I can see Aloth is low on health so I drop a heal on him, then have Aloth plunk a fireball onto the mobs. In Real time with pause Aloth can still die to an attack while the heal is being cast, and similarly the mobs can move out of the fireball's area in the time it's being cast.

And while less important having a spell effect last 5 seconds doesn't really tell you when you need to cast another spell to reapply it, since due to cast times/recovery/needing to reposition it might hit the mob two seconds before or after it ends.

I have no problem with any of this but it's definitely more chaotic and reactive than actual turn based systems.

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Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang

Avalerion posted:

I have no problem with any of this but it's definitely more chaotic and reactive than actual turn based systems.

I don't know that is is more reactive than a turn-based game (missing that 96% shot in XCOM2 will probably make you regret not taking into account the 4% miss chance, and you'll have to react to that) but it sure is more chaotic, if that's the word you want to use. But I don't see either system superior to the other, they just have different feels. :shrug:

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