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Nae! posted:Okay there's a lot to unpack here but let's have a really important chat about dick-size.
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Nov 6, 2018 01:17
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Fish Noise posted:Trying not to reach for the stylus right now. I have a Folgers coffee can for a stylus
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Nov 6, 2018 01:35
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Antivehicular posted:TBH I was gonna yell at you about the Exalted/L5R fanfic thing, as well as Yowaimaru being an especially bad "a little Japanese knowledge is a dangerous thing" name, but the Gdoc repeatedly crashed my phone browser, so it'll have to wait until I get home and can finish the story/my bullet-pointed list of things to yell at you about. I look forward to this, unironically. All criticism can only help.
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Nov 6, 2018 02:03
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Like a tall-boy of red bull. Like a tube of tennis balls hanging there. Four pack. Like a loving policeman's flashlight from the 1980s hanging there. Like a one liter thermos. Like a deflated football.
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Nov 6, 2018 03:42
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I your bottom the goatman? Because I feel like this is the only way the relationship is gonna work.
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Nov 6, 2018 04:15
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quote:crimson empress gently caress instead of writing i should have focused on building a yaoi empire e: 
Sitting Here fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Nov 6, 2018 |
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Nov 6, 2018 06:48
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im the small tent in yowaimaru's kimono
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Nov 6, 2018 06:53
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also nae! join the writing discord, thanks.
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Nov 6, 2018 07:05
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'You write gay erotica like you're a teen-aged virgin. That's not a criticism' That should have set off some alarms.
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Nov 6, 2018 07:10
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you write historical fiction like Mork from Ork. that's not a criticism
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Nov 6, 2018 18:21
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Covok posted:I look forward to this, unironically. All criticism can only help. All right, as promised, here's some yelling, in no particular order besides my thoughts: * If you want to rip off Exalted, I can't actually stop you, but I think it'd be better if you were less blatant. The Not-Scarlet-Empress-Really and Not-Blessed-Isles-Really are just too transparent to anyone who's ever heard of your source material. Also, does any of this backstory matter to the plot? * Similarly, does the family the rugged soldier guy comes from have to be the Crab? It really completes the feeling that this is just Exalted/Legend of the 5 Rings fusion porn, and the audience for Internet smut like this is nerdy enough that I won't be the only one to notice. * And on the subject of nerdy pedantry... let's talk about names for a moment. Yes, it's fun to create clever/meaningful/symbolic names. The problem, though, is that they get heavy-handed and distracting fast, and the only people who'll even notice they're clever are the same people likely to be distracted. The main character being named "Yowaimaru" snapped me out of any kind of engagement basically instantly; I think you'd do better here to just give these characters real Japanese names, instead of trying to make up "meaningful" ones. * Yowaimaru has a lot of problems as a character, particularly as a viewpoint character. I get the idea that he's supposed to be young and oppressed by basically everyone around him, but even in that context he just feels petulant and unpleasant to follow. If he likes anything besides sitting seiza for long enough (and that could use some elaboration, frankly -- is the dude a masochist?) and manly dudes, if he has any dreams or hopes or even preferences, they're deeply unclear. After the night with Senyama, he just becomes a horny puppy, and that's not interesting either. Yowaimaru would be a ton better if he had some kind of ambition or hope driving him -- if he was doing this court thing because it actually meant something to him, or he had some goal to achieve -- something that makes him other than a whiny fuckable void. * This worldbuilding is very heavy-handed and not very effective. I understand, or perhaps charitably assume, you're trying to make a statement about sexism here, but it comes off as someone trying very earnestly to teach a lesson on a prejudice they understand but haven't personally experienced, so it all rings very false. (It doesn't help that this kind of gay-male erotic fiction tends to make its female characters excessively villainous or controlling, often because of straight-out misogyny, so this overbearing matriarchy feels kind of unpleasant in that context.) Straining to make Yowaimaru exceptional, as the only male courtier full stop, doesn't help and opens up a lot of questions. There have to be plenty of sons in these noble houses who aren't fit for military service, or get sent home seriously wounded, or what have you; do they all just sit around being househusbands, or what? "Male courtiers are rare and face an uphill struggle for acceptance" would be fine. "Yowaimaru is the only dude ever to do this" doesn't make a ton of sense. Also, why is Senyama even there? I guess he's supposed to be House Mother Baba (ugh, that name)'s second, but why does she need one for a basic marriage negotiation? * So. The smut. As has already been mentioned, there are some mechanical issues with the smut; even aside from Senyama's stack-o-DVD-spindles dick, there are a lot of things going on here that are very stereotypical "teenage virgin" in writing, like Senyama apparently having no refractory period (going from orgasm to hard enough for anal penetration in, like, a paragraph and maybe 30 seconds of story time?), to Yowaimaru taking a 9-inch dick anally with no lube or prep and loving it. This is mostly stuff that can be figured out via basic sex-education resources, some of which exist just for smut writers. The bigger issue I have with this piece is that it goes to the well of some pretty regressive stereotypes about gay sexuality. We have the top as this huge, forceful/dominating, ultra-masculine guy with a huge dick and a very young, virginal, submissive, crossdressing bottom who's so feminized that the top starts calling him by the feminine form of his name (ugh) and whose penis is explicitly tiny and only useful for comedy. These stereotypes are completely ubiquitous in gay-male smut, and they're also extremely regressive ideas about how same-sex romance and sex work -- the "man" and the "woman," the conflation of sexual act preference with gender presentation and dominant/submissive roles... honestly, it's uncomfortable to read. (I'm also not sure what to make of Yowaimaru's weird Taoism potion secret. I suspect what you're trying to do here is draw comparisons to trans people or people with intersex conditions here, maybe as a comparison to coercive gender assignment, but having the representative character for this be a cis man who was magically drugged is kind of clumsy and messy. If you want Yowaimaru to have an intersex condition or a trans identity, much better to just have that be a natural part of himself, rather than something that was forced on him as a cis guy.) Here's my concern: your describing it as "LGBT+ erotica," as well as your attempts to make a point about sexism earlier, make me assume you want this story to be in some way progressive. This is a fine goal, but these stereotypical smut dynamics really, really undermine what you're trying to say. These characters are porn cartoons, not fully-realized characters whose sexualities are being meaningfully explored. If you want to write smut, it's okay to write porn cartoons, and frankly if you cleaned up the goofier sex scene mechanics you could probably find readers for this right now. If you want to write LGBT+ literature, though, this needs a ton more work and thought to make these people actual people.
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Nov 7, 2018 03:26
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Phil Moscowitz posted:I think the same traits that make a good protagonist: realistic or at least understandable goals and motives (not just bad for bad’s sake), a proactive rather than reactive nature, and relatable character flaws that are more than just “Guy is a psychopath.” really late reply but i tend to write more force of nature villains than i do more human antagonist. ones baiscally an anicent dragon god who's ambtions grew so great he could no longer use logical reasoning. he went insane as a result.
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Nov 15, 2018 16:48
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Any advice on how to present a character's race to the reader without it coming off as forced? e: In particular, I've got a story where a character's race becomes increasingly important as the story goes on, but isn't introduced in a scenario where that race is particularly relevant. I feel like saying "[ambiguous name] was a tall, Japanese boy wearing a..." comes off incredibly awkward. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 01:32
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feedmyleg posted:Any advice on how to present a character's race to the reader without it coming off as forced? Most books I read mention their skin color or really obvious feature like once and then never mention it again. I think my first book, I had one of my characters listed as "The bartender, a scowling ruffian with ebony skin and arms the size of the young girl’s torso." Then left it at that. Depends on what type of book you're writing, but these days I put race in the same category as clothes in writing, which is "If it's not really super important, there's no need to harp on it. Let the readers imagine what they want." There are exceptions, of course, especially if an author's culture is central to a story like Children of Blood and Bone. Obviously doing something like high fantasy with extreme world building and fictional races are going to have a much different process for this and expounding on racial features will probably be much more important. edit: Whoops! Saw your edit. Yeah, that can be pretty tricky if it's important later. I don't know if I would just come right out and say "Japanese!" Describe his features (dark hair, lanky, etc.) Maybe have some dialogue where his race can be an important topic. Spread it out over the course of the book, basically. You don't have to dump race all at once. Let it come out when needed as the story goes on for now. And RESEARCH. Make sure you aren't falling into tropes about a culture and research or ask people what is important to them that they want others to know. Axel Serenity fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 01:49
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Give him a katana.
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Nov 19, 2018 02:17
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Switch his Ls and Rs and make him talk about honor and anime.
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Nov 19, 2018 02:21
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More seriously maybe he can talk about something that happened when he was a kid in kyoto or w/e.
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Nov 19, 2018 02:32
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feedmyleg posted:Any advice on how to present a character's race to the reader without it coming off as forced? is it important to even bring up
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Nov 19, 2018 02:34
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Axel Serenity posted:Most books I read mention their skin color or really obvious feature like once and then never mention it again. Additionally, if you are going to describe a person's race or skin color, try not to let unconscious bias seep in. By that I mean that the skin color of caucasians is rarely mentioned because the author unconsciously considers that "the default". So if you're going to mention skin color, even just in passing, consider doing it for every major character.
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Nov 19, 2018 03:55
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Additionally, if you are going to describe a person's race or skin color, try not to let unconscious bias seep in. By that I mean that the skin color of caucasians is rarely mentioned because the author unconsciously considers that "the default". So if you're going to mention skin color, even just in passing, consider doing it for every major character. On the flip side of this, I'd imagine it'd also be easy to gently caress this up and end up sounding kinda white pride-y. "Jane touched the necklace adorning her lily white neck" sort of thing.
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Nov 19, 2018 08:39
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Also here is an article by a half-Japanese American woman about this topic: http://midnightbreakfast.com/writing-people-of-color She got a range of other writers of colour to give their opinions and advice too.
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Nov 19, 2018 08:59
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Also here is an article by a half-Japanese American woman about this topic: There's some great points in there for sure. It should be noted, though, that it seems largely based on comics, which have at least some visual media to play with. The advice on dialogue in particular can be important to authors, but there's a lot shown upfront about a character's ethnicity when you can actually see them drawn out. Novels are much more ambiguous. I would hesitate to say "make sure to mention skin tone for all characters" in a book. Not only does that run into the realm of checking off boxes on the diversity list just for the sake of it, but it can also limit a reader's interpretation. Not every character's race is important to their core, and flat out saying who they are means potentially cutting off representation for someone who might see themselves in that character until race is mentioned. Reading is supposed to be fun for the reader and allow them to use their imagination. Sometimes vagueness and avoiding details can enhance what they enjoy or connect with. One person may see a character as one race, and another might see them differently. That can be a good thing. Call it the Hermione Approach, if that makes better sense. Casting a black Hermione caused a ton of controversy for Cursed Child, but I think it's great! JK Rowling had a character a lot of people saw themselves in and loved without needing race mentioned! If she had straight up said that Hermione was a pasty white nerd, we never would have had that interpretation, and I think something would have been lost. Like many things in writing, it comes down to using your best judgment. Some characters will have their race or culture as central to their story. Some won't, in which case there's not much reason to mention it. If you decide to go with Option A, try and get some perspectives from real people and do some research to avoid stereotypes if it's not a culture you are intimately familiar with. e: I really like what Frederick Nolan says in that article. Axel Serenity fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 10:09
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Thanks, all, this has all been really helpful! Even (and especially) the snark. That article in particular is great, I'd been looking for something along those lines. I'm definitely putting in the research for the character and their perspective based on the time period and their circumstance and not just trying for a token racial inclusion for the misguided sake of diversity. The Frederick Noland section of that article nails the particular nature of what I'm asking about, as my character's environment and somewhat atypical circumstance is what makes their race notable in the first place (Japanese-American teenager passing through a 1950s MidWestern rural town). The racial identity of the character is something that many other characters within the story react both consciously and subconsciously. So perhaps it was disingenuous to say that they aren't "introduced in a scenario where that race is particularly relevant" as it's core to the way they interact with the world and the community they find themselves in. But maybe attempting to introduce them in a more neutral context was me trying to subconsciously avoid having to tackle the issue head-on until the story necessitates it. So I'll definitely put some more thought into the circumstances of their introduction, but also not try to swing too far the other way. So I'll be looking for additional perspective that dives more into what that article speaks to, alongside simply continuing to read historical/autobiographical sources to make sure that I'm not being insensitive or condescending. And while the answer is naturally "thoughtfully, after much research", I was just wondering if anyone had navigated these waters before and had advice on avoiding common pitfalls. But as always, the answer's in the title: read more. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 12:41
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feedmyleg posted:(Japanese-American teenager passing through a 1950s MidWestern rural town) I think this is a really interesting idea and hope you really explore it. That time in particular has a lot going on, especially post-internment from WWII (which he might have gone through on some level as a kid if he's a teen in the 50's?). The Japanese-American National Museum has a lot of great resources for that kind of research. Check out the site, but especially visit it if you're ever near L.A. It's really great.
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Nov 19, 2018 14:19
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As I have it now, the character was born in an internment camp and his father was pushed into military service while he and his mother were imprisoned. He's a bit of a riff on the "rebel without a cause" trope, driven by the failures of post-WWII American institutions into the role of juvenile delinquent—or at least viewed as such by closed-minded small-town American bias. It's YA, though, so I'm trying to keep a balance of not getting too dour while treating the subject matter seriously.
feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 14:54
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feedmyleg posted:As I have it now, the character was born in an internment camp and his father was pushed into military service while he and his mother were imprisoned. He's a bit of a riff on the "rebel without a cause" trope, driven by the failures of post-WWII American institutions into the role of juvenile delinquent—or at least viewed as such by closed-minded small-town American bias. It's YA, though, so I'm trying to keep a balance of not getting too dour while treating the subject matter seriously. Just out of curiosity, what made you choose to write this book? It's pretty specific subject matter to pick out of the blue. Is it based on the experiences of people you know? (Assuming you're way too young to have been a rebel teen in the 50s, but hell yeah if you were).
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Nov 19, 2018 17:33
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I mean, there was a poll post-WW2 in which about 25% of Americans responded that they were in favour of the literal genocide of the entire Japanese people. Leaving aside that (white, Midwestern) society as a whole was pretty racist towards Asian people to begin with, there'd very likely be a posse of angry Pacific Theatre vets (maybe including the sheriff) actively trying to murder your protagonist.
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Nov 19, 2018 18:04
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Nae! posted:Just out of curiosity, what made you choose to write this book? It's pretty specific subject matter to pick out of the blue. Is it based on the experiences of people you know? (Assuming you're way too young to have been a rebel teen in the 50s, but hell yeah if you were). It's secondary to the main story, which is a mystery involving Soviet spies and government coverups. Overall it's an anti-war book arguing for total nuclear disarmament, using the failures of 1950s post-war America as a metaphor for today's political environment. I'd actually cut this particular plot thread until a few months back when the recent anti-immigration rhetoric reached a fever pitch and history began to repeat itself with the Mexican child detention centers. e: Of course I'm aware there's always the danger of me bungling this and ending up with something that feels problematic, but I figure I'll give it a shot because it deepens the themes and character work already present and feels like an important element of the larger picture. The character is viewed as a juvenile delinquent by adults and is looked at with suspicion by (most of) the townspeople. If it doesn't work and feels condescending, I can yank it out again. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 18:32
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Here's an account of what it was like to travel as a minority at that time: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/31/opinion/sunday/summer-road-tripping-while-black.html It's from the perspective of African Americans, but I doubt that things would have been much different for Japanese Americans; probably they would have been worse. Unless your protagonist can pass as white, road tripping across the country alone in the 50s would have been outright suicidal. On the other hand, having your protagonist pass as white (likely also adopting a "white" name) would be in line with the actual lived experience of some biracial people, and give you a chance for your protagonist to get an "inside look" into the worst of the prejudice (while also experiencing the pain of that, and having to hide that pain).
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Nov 19, 2018 21:49
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Lead out in cuffs posted:On the flip side of this, I'd imagine it'd also be easy to gently caress this up and end up sounding kinda white pride-y. Axel Serenity posted:I would hesitate to say "make sure to mention skin tone for all characters" in a book. Not only does that run into the realm of checking off boxes on the diversity list just for the sake of it, but it can also limit a reader's interpretation. Not every character's race is important to their core, and flat out saying who they are means potentially cutting off representation for someone who might see themselves in that character until race is mentioned. Reading is supposed to be fun for the reader and allow them to use their imagination. Sometimes vagueness and avoiding details can enhance what they enjoy or connect with. One person may see a character as one race, and another might see them differently. That can be a good thing. Also true. I was just trying to make the point to not let subconscious bias about what "normal" is influence your writing by only writing description for characters when they are different from the author's "normal". Personally, I'm more inclined to do what Axel Serenity says and try and not mention race or skin color. I also don't write fiction set on Earth which means I get to build them myself, but I also can't just take Earth culture and stick it in without changes. Any culture I build has to make sense for that world.
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Nov 19, 2018 22:17
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I might be tackling a slightly more mature thing that's super on your wavelength, Feed Black guy instead of Japanese, but similar 1950s setting. Though, very different in tone I think. Racism is a heavy theme of the book just because it is in the 50s. It's just unavoidable. Both the in your face, vocal and unreasonable flavor, and the societal, polite and "I'm higher than you" kind. I'm not sure how I'm going to end up promoting it though. It's got a lot of horror vibes apparently from the tone I'm shooting for. Best of luck on your story man, and just remember- racism doesn't need a reason. It's an irrational, unavoidable bias that burns in more than you'd want. It also doesn't have to drive the story, just be an unpleasant fact of life that is to be defied and combatted however one can.
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Nov 19, 2018 22:36
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Burkion posted:I might be tackling a slightly more mature thing that's super on your wavelength, Feed Black guy with heavy themes of racism in a horror environment, I'd say you can promote it as a literary version of Get Out. Might be too late to make the comparison though.
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Nov 20, 2018 03:50
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There is definitely an "addressing racism through horror" scene out there. Not exactly the kind of fiction writing the thread is generally about, but I have a friend who has really made a splash with a Harlem Renaissance Cthulhu Mythos book.
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Nov 20, 2018 05:04
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After The War posted:There is definitely an "addressing racism through horror" scene out there. Not exactly the kind of fiction writing the thread is generally about, but I have a friend who has really made a splash with a Harlem Renaissance Cthulhu Mythos book. yeah we try to keep it mostly about boob fairies and yaoi
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Nov 20, 2018 05:41
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Sitting Here posted:yeah we try to keep it mostly about boob fairies and yaoi yeah post more yaoi in here everybody, ill go first "goku walked into a bar. sephiroth's son, Original Son Do Not Steal, was there and he looked really good. "TAKE YOUR DICK OUT!" goku shouted, and Original Son DNS did. It was a big ol hog, like 80 or 90 feet long, and goku took one look at it and said 'hahah noice brah.'" Please like and subscribe.
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Nov 20, 2018 05:50
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So this is how Sephiroth Goku the Stampede was born
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Nov 20, 2018 05:57
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Nae! posted:yeah post more yaoi in here everybody, ill go first 
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Nov 20, 2018 06:00
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LOL, I meant that it's an RPG sourcebook rather than prose fiction (although it does contain some) but don't let that stop you.
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Nov 20, 2018 06:40
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ask me anything about yaoi
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Nov 20, 2018 06:47
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anime was right posted:ask me anything about yaoi Why they hands so big Why
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Nov 20, 2018 06:47
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