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The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Better late than never, pound for pound list up:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...0#post468841947

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Lionel Richie
Nov 14, 2004



You can tell boxing's in one of it's lull periods when one (disputed) win of note in the best part of 4 years and people are putting you as number 1 p4p

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Yeah this was one of the first times in recent memory where I felt the top 3 guys were in more or less arbitrary positions and same goes for like 7-15.

mike-
Jul 9, 2004

Phillipians 1:21


I think p4p is kind of dumb in general but you definitely put a lot of effort into putting together the list and op so I just wanted to applaud you for it.

DO YALL WANT A BOXC
Jul 20, 2010

EYY WHO WANTS A PIZZA PIE ? PASTA LINGUINE ITSA FAMILY THING PAISAN EYYYYYY





Fun Shoe

mike- posted:

I think p4p is kind of dumb in general but you definitely put a lot of effort into putting together the list and op so I just wanted to applaud you for it.

ya as a moderate boxing fan it is very cool, thanks a bunch

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




I enjoyed that read

straight up brolic
Jan 31, 2007

After all, I was nice in ball,
Came to practice weed scented
Report card like the speed limit



My p4p top 5 is

GGG
Crawford
Chocolatito
Kovalev (thought he won the fight)
Ward

But I had fun reading your list. It's hard for me to see the argument against GGG at 1. Dude has like never even had a difficult fight and he's fought everyone he can but Canelo.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



The argument against GGG is that he's never fought a pound-for-pound fighter before, so the most you can say about him is that he has dominated a weak division.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




The Ninth Layer posted:

The argument against GGG is that he's never fought a pound-for-pound fighter before, so the most you can say about him is that he has dominated a weak division.

My argument against that is that he has called out every pound-for-pound fighter who competes anywhere near his weight, and they pretty much universally avoid him.

This "dominated a weak division" stuff is generally weak argument anyway which verges on circular logic. The division looks weak because of how easily GGG beats the poo poo out of them.

It's like saying that vintage Tyson wasn't that good because he was putting fighters down inside two rounds. It also reminds me of the times when similar things were said about Anderson Silva - "He's not great because his division is weak, and the evidence of the division being weak is that he's not that great and he easily beat them."

Yes, I love GGG. Why do you ask?

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



It is circular logic, yes, but at the same time Tyson beat up a lot of bums, there isn't really anyone you could point to early in his career as a potential great who was derailed. Then when a Holyfield match was being set up the Douglas fight happened and Tyson lost to a 42-1 underdog who happened to not instantly wilt from his punches.

Putting aside quality of opposition Golovkin would be my #1 guy, I think he's a harder challenge than any of the three guys I ranked above him. But at the same time the only opponent in Golovkin's record that I would ever have tabbed as a potential top 10 pound-for-pound fighter is Kell Brook, who came up two weight classes to fight him. The rest are barely even relevant today, and when it comes down to it, almost all of them would be underdogs against Canelo if he moved up to 160.

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


I think there are good p4p #1 arguments for Gonzalez, Ward, GGG, Lomachenko depending on what criteria you use. Crawford too.

GGG is obviously a top P4P, possibly the best boxer in the world right now, but resume is important to a lot of people. I imagine the Jacobs fight might make things a bit clearer. If he cleans house with the clear number 2 guy in the division, then it's a lot harder to cast doubt on him.

Really all the guys mentioned are very, very good. The question of the top P4P is a hard one right now because there are a lot of good boxers right now.

That list up there isn't my top 5 P4P btw, it's just that I don't really see any argument Kovalev as best P4P that wouldn't work better on one of the other top guys.

straight up brolic
Jan 31, 2007

After all, I was nice in ball,
Came to practice weed scented
Report card like the speed limit



Is Roy Jones Jr. worth watching tonight? Kind of getting a sad vibe from this fight

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


no, please don't watch Roy Jones Jr tonight

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




Yeah I'm not 100% admant that GGG must be #1 - the arguments for him, Ward, Lomachenko, and Cocolatito are all strong. I just think that the weak division one is circular logic, because in fight sports you're invincible until you're not. If he's getting the wins and smashing motherfuckers left and right, it's simply wrong to hold that against him.

For me it's a question of whether I value Ward's close Kovalev win with a bunch of uninspiring decisions more than GGG's gigantic heap of twitching bodies. There's a tendency to overrate the skill of "pure boxers" in these discussions, too, and to underrate guys who are perceived as punchers, possibly as a means of giving credit to fighters who are getting the wins but not in emphatic crowd pleasing fashion.

The way I see it GGG is getting the wins as well as Ward, he has been more active, he's also a hell of a technician (even if it's not "pure boxing") and he gets the finishes, even against durable opponents - so I give the edge to Big Drama Show.

afatwhiteloaf
Oct 19, 2012


Roy Jones Jr. won. Other dude quit after the first good combo Roy landed busted up his nose.

Grittybeard
Mar 29, 2010


I had no idea this was going on and after looking up something on it...

quote:

Chase Center, Wilmington, Delaware - In his first fight since last June, former four division world champion Roy Jones Jr. (65-9, 47 KOs), 48-years-old, secured a eight round stoppage over Bobby Gunn (21-7-1, 18 KOs) in a cruiserweight contest. Stoppage was marked at 7 seconds of the eight.

Gunn, inactive since December 2013, had lost his last three in a row coming into this contest.

...why? Why did this happen? Who pays to see this?

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


CommonShore posted:

For me it's a question of whether I value Ward's close Kovalev win with a bunch of uninspiring decisions more than GGG's gigantic heap of twitching bodies. There's a tendency to overrate the skill of "pure boxers" in these discussions, too, and to underrate guys who are perceived as punchers, possibly as a means of giving credit to fighters who are getting the wins but not in emphatic crowd pleasing fashion.

The way I see it GGG is getting the wins as well as Ward, he has been more active, he's also a hell of a technician (even if it's not "pure boxing") and he gets the finishes, even against durable opponents - so I give the edge to Big Drama Show.

Ward is no slouch though, he made Sullivan Barrera look like trash, and Barrera is a top 10 light heavyweight, he also has a superb track record at 168, while GGG has campaigned exclusively at 160. Moving through multiple divisions means a lot on pound for pound lists.

I agree with what you're saying about the circular logic on the weak division thing. I also agree that GGG might be the best fighter today, but in such a close P4P competition, it's all about defining accomplishments, and GGG is still chasing those down.

E: I think I'd rank GGG above kovalev tbh

MMM Whatchya Say fucked around with this message at Feb 18, 2017 around 05:40

Officer Sandvich
Feb 14, 2010


Grittybeard posted:

I had no idea this was going on and after looking up something on it...


...why? Why did this happen? Who pays to see this?

nobody

Monday Bandele
Apr 26, 2008


The problem with p4p is that if you put too much weight on records you end up with a list full of +35 year olds.

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


Yeah I think too much emphasis is placed on resume in general, but I think with P4P, it helps to separate the very best.

Broner-Granados will be streamed for free on twitter tonight!

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




Monday Bandele posted:

The problem with p4p is that if you put too much weight on records you end up with a list full of +35 year olds.

That's why I try to weigh equally record (the wins and losses), results (fast finishes vs close decisions), performance (how do they look relative to the norms for that weight class), achievement (the names), and activity (which includes avoiding specific obvious opponents), with a greater weight toward the last two or three years.

I don't make spreadsheets or anything of course (though I could... hmm...) but this is what I roll around in my head when analysing about a fighter. Mayweather had good showings in all of these categories, though "results" would likely have been his lowest, and "activity" a bit behind that.

The SituAsian
Oct 29, 2006

PLEASE WORK OUT

P4P for me is primarily an eye test since-for me-pound for pound basically means if everyone could magically be the same size who would be the best fighters? Record is important of course but it still mainly comes down to skill vs skill.

Lomachenko is one of the most decorated amateurs of all time and has shown exponential growth since losing to Salido (and he easily could've won anyways) so that's why he's my number 1 p4p and it honestly isn't all that close.

EDIT:

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

Lomachenko vs Crawford would be great, but they're a bit too far in weight right now

Unfortunately I doubt they would ever meet. Crawford will be officially at welter after Diaz/Orozco and Loma will be at 135 by the end of the year. Lomachenko beats Pacquiao at 135 right now imo

The SituAsian fucked around with this message at Feb 18, 2017 around 20:03

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


Lomachenko vs Crawford would be great, but they're a bit too far in weight right now

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008





Nap Ghost

The SituAsian posted:

Lomachenko is one of the most decorated amateurs of all time and has shown exponential growth since losing to Salido (and he easily could've won anyways) so that's why he's my number 1 p4p and it honestly isn't all that close.

He's incredibly talented, hard to see anyone else taking p4p #1.

The SituAsian
Oct 29, 2006

PLEASE WORK OUT

MMM Whatchya Say posted:


Broner-Granados will be streamed for free on twitter tonight!

https://twitter.com/i/live/828737836316717057

Get it.

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


Top Dog got smashed. Browne could be an interesting fighter.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Good showing for Peterson, his body work was something else that fight.

sportsgenius86
Jun 17, 2008

THE STREAK IS OVER


God I loving hate Broner

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




Peterson had the better trunks

Le Saboteur
Dec 5, 2007

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


It's so weird to hear the guy that calls WWE Smackdown calling real sports even though I know this is his original bread and butter.

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008





Nap Ghost

sportsgenius86 posted:

God I loving hate Broner

And his fuckin skirt thing

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


I'm like the only person who doesn't mind Broner

Anyway I have no clue who won that fight

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




MMM Whatchya Say posted:

I'm like the only person who doesn't mind Broner

Anyway I have no clue who won that fight

Broner is annoying but I think he'll win the decision because a) hometown, and b) I hate him so I tend to overrate his opponent's successes.

sportsgenius86
Jun 17, 2008

THE STREAK IS OVER


Hahaha 97-93 Granados

sportsgenius86
Jun 17, 2008

THE STREAK IS OVER


Broner is such a loving dollar store Floyd in every way imaginable

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


I could see that as a draw, or like 2 rounds in either direction. Close fight.

Granados has still never lost by anything but a split decision

ozymandius1024
Mar 14, 2006

You don't yank on the Spine of God


The Ninth Layer posted:

Good showing for Peterson, his body work was something else that fight.

I don't know why, but I've always really liked Peterson. He's got like no power but throws a pretty decent volume, is a great body puncher, and has a very cocky air about him when he's in the ring (the shoe shining he did against Holt and Jean were hilarious).

I can't remember who said it originally (it was on BLH though), but I don't want to live in a world where Lamont isn't shambling forward like a zombie and harassing the body.

Josuke Higashikata
Mar 7, 2013

No need to apologise when I am right, like usual.





Someone made a good post on imgur, shocking I know, about Lomachenko vs Walters

http://imgur.com/gallery/LPkuo

The SituAsian
Oct 29, 2006

PLEASE WORK OUT

https://twitter.com/mannypacquiao/s...578429152407552

Oh.......brother

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Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008

duckin 4 cover lol. u don't get to see the good fight b*tch



apparently canelo and jccjr just made a gentleman's agreement to give the whole 45million purse to the victor (canelo giving up 36 mil if he loses, jcc 9mil). it's probably a publicity stunt to drum up interest in a fight noone wants.

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