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Grandmother of Five posted:Thanks again to everyone taking the time to answer questions so in-depth! I live in Portland Oregon, one of the most low-key racist spots in the country, and the answer is extremely. The only exception, and only sometimes, is family, but in either case "Democrat/Liberal/Left" and "Republican/Conservative/Right" are uttered like invectives by the other side. I don't know how it is in the rest of the world but it's very common here for things to get even more nuanced than left/right split and go as far as "this person and I are both leftists against conservatism and the rise of fascism and are pro-basic human rights but I believe in responsible democratic socialism while they believe in reformed Marxist communism so now we are BITTER ENEMIES." I mean that's exaggerating very slightly but it's contributed to the left being able to do gently caress-all in this country for some years and is also why a common axiom is that the two topics you should never discuss with people you want to remain friends with is a) religion and b) politics. Voter turnout is way higher in Oregon than it is anywhere but that's because we have mail-in ballots and a lack of so-called "voter fraud" laws that make it harder for poor people and minorities to vote in other states. Of the people I know who didn't vote or write in flippant things (like "Batman" for president) it's because they believe it a) does not matter or b) there wasn't a candidate available they 100% agreed with on every issue. I think these are both incredibly stupid reasons not to vote but I'm not their fuckin' mothers and in a lot of places, Oregon included, the way a lot of elections work make it kind of moot anyway.
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Apr 24, 2017 00:24
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:For the most part, your friend group is either very right-wing or very left-wing. Obviously you're forced to interact with your political counterparts thanks to family ties and work obligations, but in terms of who you chill with, chances are your group is either left or right. That even applies to your interests, your bars, your food, your activities, your clothes... At least among younger (millennial) Americans, the phenomenon seems to be more ideological homogeneity than diverging interests. The paltry few conservative acquaintances I have (around 6) are all into the same things, like videogames, live music, interesting food and craft beer, and they wouldn't stand out socially. They mostly keep their politics to themselves. I guess the upshot is: to non-US goons, any Americans between ~18 and 35 are very likely to be on your wavelength politically, and to think that Western Europe is superior in almost every dimension.
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Apr 24, 2017 02:45
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Thanks again for the in-depth answers! My take-away is that the two-party and a relatively polarized system, makes socializing along fairly distinct political lines more natural. A couple of you speculated whether this is true elsewhere, and off-hand, it would be easy to say that people here don't place the same importance on politics in social settings, and don't wear their political conviction on their sleeves, but it would be missing that the mainstream political climate also isn't perceived as that polarized here. As an example, despite there being 10 parties in parliament at the moment, not a single one of them are against the right to have abortion. There are important political difference between the parties, of course, but the mainstream framework doesn't encompass such stark differences as something like "pro life" versus "pro choice", I feel; so in that context, of course people don't place the same importance on political affiliation in inter-personal relationships, because the same "deal breakers" doesn't exists within the (mainstream) political framework. From a US perspective, I imagine it might sound crazy, but I don't know the party affiliation of the majority of my close friends and family members, but the lack of a need to identify with and place importance on, at least party-based politics, is because the mainstream framework doesn't encompass quite as radical, fundamental difference. Incompatible stances exists here too, of course, but they are relatively fringe and unlikely to come up in conversation for most people, I'd think.
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Apr 24, 2017 13:16
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As you've probably figured out from the wide variety of answers from everyone here, the United States has about as many differences in it as Europe. Our country is bigger than all of Europe minus Russia, without even including Alaska and Hawaii. Texas alone is the size of several countries, and has a pretty big dichotomy in culture and moral beliefs between a major city like Austin and a small town like Marfa. Georgia, Massachusetts, Oregon, Alaska, California, Florida, and North Dakota are so different in culture, climate, and history that they may as well be separate countries. The largest bond any of us probably have is an identity as "an American", but what does that even mean? Everyone will tell you a different answer about what a good American is supposed to be. The people who bomb abortion clinics and slap their wives for talking out of turn think they're as American as the people protesting Donald Trump and setting up funds to help each other with bills. The idea of patriotism in America is as nebulous to grasp as a single American identity. Speaking of climate, the US runs the gamut from one extreme to the next. Speaking about my home state of Florida, we tend to be hot more often than not; the current temperature outside is 73 degrees Fahrenheit and humidity is a whopping 82%. It's expected to climb to 81 degrees by the hottest part of the afternoon, then drop down to 59 degrees by 7:00 AM tomorrow. It's normal for most of the year to be sweltering, with the humidity making it always feel hotter than it actually is. We're a subtropical climate with heat waves in the summer that can get dangerous if you're stuck in a hot car. We only receive cold weather (below 60 degrees on a regular basis) for about a month or two in the winter. Global warming must be playing havoc with us as well, because one day will be in the 70s or 80s and the next will be in the 50s. Hurricanes are also a fact of life here. We don't get them quite as often as the stereotype makes it out (Hurricane Matthew last year was our first big one since around 2004 and a lot of inland areas were spared, with my house not even losing power), but everyone who was born and raised here treats hurricanes as an occasional thing to prepare for. It's much worse on the coast, where flooding can destroy unprepared districts. You do things like cut down trees that are leaning suspiciously just in case a storm blows them over. During the last storm, someone broke the curfew just so he could try and find a store that was open to get cigarettes (he's from one of the redneck parts of Central Florida, so not the best grape in the bunch) and ended up having a tree land on his vehicle...which was his girlfriend's jeep that he borrowed.
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Apr 24, 2017 13:44
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The political divide among the places you go and the friends you make really struck home to me. It's definitely true. It wasn't true when I was in college back in the early 2000s. The Bush, Obama, and Trump years have really solidified divides. I disagree with the whole 18-35 thinking Europe better in most ways, but definitely in some. We do see them having some of our major problems solved (Health care costs, Education costs), and I think we do kind of envy their social cohesion (where it applies). We're pretty much 50/50 split, and that makes everyone unhappy.
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Apr 24, 2017 14:34
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chitoryu12 posted:Democrats are centrist compared to a typical "left-wing" party elsewhere, but they're still the leftmost of the two political parties that actually have any power in America and overall don't go as far to the right as Republicans. Also, people on the ground who vote democrat usually lean more left than the party politicians. UltraRed posted:The political divide among the places you go and the friends you make really struck home to me. It's definitely true. It wasn't true when I was in college back in the early 2000s. The Bush, Obama, and Trump years have really solidified divides. I think there are some folks who almost end up idealizing Europe (and Canada/Australia.) I lived in Canada and while I prefer it there in MOST ways, it's unsurprisingly not this racism-free, ultraliberal paradise where everyone is taken care of. It's got all the same poo poo the US has, and the same types of rear end in a top hat. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 15:40
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The comments re; some people idolizing Europe makes me curious about, to what extent, you might feel that Europeans harbor anti-US sentiments. Like, do you think that anti-US sentiments are mainstream, or largely reserved the political right or left, or the young or old, or is typical in academia or where does it reside, if you feel that it exists? Is it especially distinct for northern, western, eastern or southern Europe, would you think? Assuming the distinction is worthwhile.
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Apr 24, 2017 15:54
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chitoryu12 posted:As you've probably figured out from the wide variety of answers from everyone here, the United States has about as many differences in it as Europe. Our country is bigger than all of Europe minus Russia, without even including Alaska and Hawaii. Texas alone is the size of several countries, and has a pretty big dichotomy in culture and moral beliefs between a major city like Austin and a small town like Marfa. Georgia, Massachusetts, Oregon, Alaska, California, Florida, and North Dakota are so different in culture, climate, and history that they may as well be separate countries. I have to wonder if people who say this kind of stuff have ever been to an actual foreign country (especially a non-anglophone one). it's a hell of a lot more different than going from US state to another! Jeb Bush 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 16:29
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Grandmother of Five posted:I meant to ask a question about this! yeah, but part of this is just geographic sorting. almost everyone i choose to hang out with shares my left politics, we also all live in a major urban area. i have one politically right friend i've known for twenty years, he wants to move out of the city and back to the rural areas where we grew up. when i lived in my childhood hometown i knew many politically right people, as soon as i could i moved away and cut ties with that area and those people. likewise, those people are generally hostile to or scared of the city where i live, fearing crime. i felt the same way when i was a teenager visiting the city on my own for the first time, i had to live here before i knew that crime was a possibility but vastly overstated. and these are areas that are about an hours drive apart
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Apr 24, 2017 23:57
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'm aware of this phenomenon and still it ends up that 95% of people I click with have the same political views as me, cuz anyone who disagrees with me [...] wears clothes that look ugly as hell to me, or has a different accent than me. (and I mean more drawl vs. generic newscaster, not immigrant vs native-born.) It's crazy. At least here in Texas it's insanely easy to guess someone's political beliefs on sight. This is interesting, could you expand on it?
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Apr 25, 2017 05:00
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Grandmother of Five posted:The comments re; some people idolizing Europe makes me curious about, to what extent, you might feel that Europeans harbor anti-US sentiments. Like, do you think that anti-US sentiments are mainstream, or largely reserved the political right or left, or the young or old, or is typical in academia or where does it reside, if you feel that it exists? Is it especially distinct for northern, western, eastern or southern Europe, would you think? Assuming the distinction is worthwhile. I have heard from several people that have traveled abroad that anti-US sentiment is not really very common at all in Europe or Asia save in very specific regions because most are capable of separating American citizens from the United States as a government/nation. They describe people as either neutral or positive in disposition toward American tourists, but apparently "Americans are loud" is a pretty common stereotype to run into. Personally, I wouldn't blame people from a lot of European countries to view the US as back-asswards in a lot of ways given our lack of things like basic social services, but then you get back to the whole "citizens are not their nations" thing.
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Apr 25, 2017 11:23
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Grandmother of Five posted:Is that an experience that the others of you living in the US recognize? That people are divided socially along political lines? How strict is that, like, do you have barely any, or no close friends at all who doesn't share your party affiliation? Do you pretty much know the political affiliation of all your friends and family members? I feel comfortable talking about politics with close friends, even though we don't agree on everything. I don't like to talk about politics with strangers. In my experience, most people who've brought up politics to me shortly after meeting me have been either fanatics of one stripe or another or boors. I know the affiliation of my family, sure. I could take a guess at most of my friends. I don't think whether or not someone voted is any of my business and I don't think anything less of people who decide not to vote.
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Apr 25, 2017 16:30
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Dzhay posted:This is interesting, could you expand on it?   /    
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May 1, 2017 02:21
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nailed it
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May 1, 2017 14:19
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Much of small-town america looks like this: While cities are more like this: 
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May 1, 2017 23:35
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Dominoes posted:Much of small-town america looks like this: Though it's really more of a combo in a lot of places. Urban sprawl means that the latter ends up extending outward into the former. In the most extreme cases like Los Angeles, urban sprawl can stretch for 50 miles from the proper "downtown" area and it can take 2 hours of driving to escape to the countryside depending on which direction you're going.
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May 2, 2017 00:27
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Dominoes posted:Much of small-town america looks like this: Texas.jpg
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May 2, 2017 01:06
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Why is there such a huge distance between the two sides of the road?
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May 2, 2017 04:08
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Tiggum posted:Why is there such a huge distance between the two sides of the road? America has a ridiculous amount of space, so it gets taken advantage of. Supermarkets take up multiple city blocks and have parking lots with a footprint the size of a medieval village. Now your first instinct will probably be "Australia has a ton of space too and they don't do that!" But remember that most of Australia is an uninhabited wasteland.
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May 2, 2017 12:30
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chitoryu12 posted:America has a ridiculous amount of space, so it gets taken advantage of. Supermarkets take up multiple city blocks and have parking lots with a footprint the size of a medieval village. Much like America. We're just more honest about it.
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May 2, 2017 12:45
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iajanus posted:Much like America. We're just more honest about it. Nah, our empty swathes of land could be inhabited but just haven't been expanded into yet. The interior of Australia is basically the most uninhabitable portions of the American Southwest repeated ad nauseum.
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May 2, 2017 13:21
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chitoryu12 posted:America has a ridiculous amount of space, so it gets taken advantage of.
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May 2, 2017 13:45
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Tiggum posted:It's not though? Even if there was some trees or something there (which there isn't in that picture), why not compress the roads and put the greenery on the sides where people can enjoy it? What's the advantage of those giant traffic islands? I mean, someone presumably designed that road and decided it should be that way. Exactly. Australia and Canada both have massive amounts of uninhabited wasteland and the roads aren't like that simply because it just doesn't make any sense to build that way.
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May 2, 2017 13:59
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Tiggum posted:It's not though? Even if there was some trees or something there (which there isn't in that picture), why not compress the roads and put the greenery on the sides where people can enjoy it? What's the advantage of those giant traffic islands? I mean, someone presumably designed that road and decided it should be that way. Imagine a fast food fried chicken joint at every traffic island. We build for the future.
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May 2, 2017 14:02
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B. Birdsworth posted:Imagine a fast food fried chicken joint at every traffic island. It's this. It's future planning for expansion. If the economy goes well, mini malls or parking structures will go up. If not, they'll become dog parks or green spaces. Most places have the roads going in two directions with a divider. Texas is just more optimistic about their growth.
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May 2, 2017 15:05
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If you notice the turning lanes every block it makes a bit more sense. The middle strip allows for adequate turning space for multiple cars. It's also the mid-century ideal of a "parkway". Look at all that great green space in the middle! Wide open and pastoral, not like those dirty 19th Century cities all packed together! It's not particularly great design, but it was done for a reason. We certainly have our fair share of tightly packed highways and cities. For example, the Schuylkill Expressway in Philly is built tightly into a hillside next to the Schuylkill River. You can barely tell it's there when looking at it from afar. Great for keeping the character of the landscape intact, but unfortunately it's also nearly impossible to expand and as a result is notoriously backed up with traffic as it was under-designed for the amount of traffic it serves.
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May 2, 2017 15:20
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chitoryu12 posted:America has a ridiculous amount of space, so it gets taken advantage of. Supermarkets take up multiple city blocks and have parking lots with a footprint the size of a medieval village. Nah, it's not just Australia, every country that isn't a city-state has plenty of land in this kind of rural area. They don't do this kind of development because it doesn't make sense (in particular, it's comically hostile to pedestrians, who American development tends to poo poo on outside of urban areas and sometimes even in them).
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May 2, 2017 17:11
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:Nah, it's not just Australia, every country that isn't a city-state has plenty of land in this kind of rural area. They don't do this kind of development because it doesn't make sense (in particular, it's comically hostile to pedestrians, who American development tends to poo poo on outside of urban areas and sometimes even in them). That's suburbia, not rural. You can even see the housing divisions in the background.
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May 2, 2017 18:29
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Tiggum posted:Why is there such a huge distance between the two sides of the road? that picture is from 2001. the wideness was to provide space for a planned future highway. this is the same image more or less today, after the highway was dug out https://www.google.com/maps/place/C...35!4d-106.37921
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May 2, 2017 18:56
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UltraRed posted:That's suburbia, not rural. You can even see the housing divisions in the background.
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May 2, 2017 20:28
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:yeah I should've said "non-urban". the point remains though, the physical size of a country isn't really relevant to this kind of stuff because except for the tiniest countries urban space is still a tiny proportion of land area even if they house a large proportion of the population On this note, this article is a few years old but: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096 So even in the highly urbanised, densely-populated UK around 97% of the land is not built on.
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May 3, 2017 12:54
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Corrode posted:On this note, this article is a few years old but: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096
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May 3, 2017 18:39
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UltraRed posted:That's suburbia, not rural. You can even see the housing divisions in the background. This is closer to what Rural America looks like https://www.google.com/maps/place/W...9!4d-79.8073205 edit-this is still only about 20 minutes outside of a city. However, that is the standard, if you go more than ten minutes outside of a city you'll see stuff like this.....or even more sparse. Also, this is decently off rural. Poor rural is a whole other meth-infested bag. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 20:27 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 20:23
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:I grew up in rural North Dakota. Politically, it's hard right... To some extent, yes. However, if you live near Fargo, there is a significant progressive movement.There's the Free Thinkers which are very liberal group. There's the league of woman voters that my grandmother was always involved in. Our neighbor in the Sand Hills about 10 miles away from our farm was a gay rancher. No-one ever said anything disparaging about him. My cousin is black and he went to a rodeo with us and the announcer (not a local) started saying racist things Immediately a women said to my aunt and cousin "That's not how we work here and I apologize" (paraphrased) The Sand hills are beautiful. The Badlands are gorgeous. The endless prairie is amazing. Fargo is a fun place to visit. Good night life. I do agree though it's conservative in general, we North Dakotans don't take kindly to racists. 
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May 4, 2017 16:09
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mostlygray posted:Our neighbor... 10 miles away You're taking the piss In case you aren't: Jesus, just how empty is your area? 
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May 4, 2017 16:33
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System Metternich posted:You're taking the piss Nah, that sounds right, the US has a LOT of just open nothingness and farmland.
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May 4, 2017 16:37
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Wyoming has a land area of 97,914 square miles and an estimated 2015 population of 586,107. This gives it an average density of 5.97 people per square mile. Most cities have a higher population than the entire state.
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May 4, 2017 17:39
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System Metternich posted:You're taking the piss That's not far. My cousin lives over 210 kilometers away from the nearest practicing doctor.
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May 4, 2017 23:39
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Yeah, the huge spaces actually cause lots of issues sometimes, things you wouldn't even think. For instance, large portions of the country are considered "food deserts", where it is so far in any direction to a supermarket or outlet, that food options are insanely limited. You can be in the middle of farm country and never see fresh produce.
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May 5, 2017 05:04
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Dominoes posted:Developed doesn't have to mean city; it's almost all used for agriculture. We were talking about "urban" which is "built-on land." Vast swathes of most countries are of course developed for agriculture, but that doesn't make them urban. In fact it's pretty much the definition of rural.
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May 5, 2017 09:38
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