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Tesseraction posted:That's from 2016. it says right there 2017!!! 6 - the number of lib dem MPs voting against brexit
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Feb 1, 2017 21:17
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Pochoclo posted:Forgive me if I am skeptical here, maybe I just don't know enough about the UK parliamentary system, but this was wayyyyyy too much of a "roll over and show my belly" act to believe that Labour will actually get hardline about amendments later if they didn't do poo poo until now. There is no 'hardline' about amendments. Either they are supported by Tory rebels, or they fail. Labour has zero leverage to force amendments through.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:20
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Other than actually voting en-masse to block A50 which, well, I think would be political suicide.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:23
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So 47 Labour MP's voted against, and a number abstained including Diane Abbot.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:23
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No whip applied by Labour on the governments programme motion but only 40 odd Labour MPs voted against it https://mobile.twitter.com/ParlyApp/status/826879839865040896 Yep loads of time
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Feb 1, 2017 21:23
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JFairfax posted:it says right there 2017!!! Sorry I'm full of poo poo - [url=http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/25/politics/donald-trump-megyn-kelly-iowa-rally/]it was 2015[url]. God that election campaign feels like a long dream that you become more and more alarmed you can't wake up from as the people all turn into snake beings that eat children.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:23
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jabby posted:But apparently you can come back fairly rapidly, which is probably what's going to happen. More ridiculous tradition bollocks. Yeah, but a three line whip over a symbolic measure? That's insane. Corbyn's lost a lot of trust I'd had in him over this.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:23
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Abbot is apparently ill so probably shouldn't be classed as 'rebelling' but either way thats a fair few labour MP's and 3 whips who defied Corbyn.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:25
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Five hours to debate amendments setting negotiating priorities, a victory for the opposition...
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Feb 1, 2017 21:25
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kustomkarkommando posted:Five hours to debate amendments setting negotiating priorities, a victory for the opposition... No one is going to change their minds based on what is said in the house, it's the longer term thinking or just short term obedience which will determine what the Tories accept and vote for. Hell they could let a few rebels get them passed and then blame Labour for whatever happens afterwards due to Labours backstabbing or something.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:30
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namesake posted:No one is going to change their minds based on what is said in the house, it's the longer term thinking or just short term obedience which will determine what the Tories accept and vote for. I don't think the official opposition should think like that as its kind of their duty to challenge the government in parliament by you know talking a lot
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Feb 1, 2017 21:32
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kustomkarkommando posted:I don't think the official opposition should think like that as its kind of their duty to challenge the government in parliament by you know talking a lot It doesn't take that long to stand up and say 'Giving the government a free hand without these conditions will be bad, vote for this amendments to make it good'. After a few hours it'll get repetitive.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:34
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I wonder if they voted for a fast debate so they didn't have to go to work very long.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:36
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namesake posted:It doesn't take that long to stand up and say 'Giving the government a free hand without these conditions will be bad, vote for this amendments to make it good'. After a few hours it'll get repetitive. I don't think the opposition should actively vote to curtail the amount of time to make speeches and harangue the government
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Feb 1, 2017 21:36
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jabby posted:There is no 'hardline' about amendments. Either they are supported by Tory rebels, or they fail. Labour has zero leverage to force amendments through. Then maybe don't talk to me about how amendments come at a later stage??? Just a thought. I mean if I say "welp article 50 approved without amendments, we're hosed" and the answer is "actually amendments come later", but then it turns out "actually there's no way in hell amendments will get approved", well.... maybe that's what I meant? Pochoclo fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Feb 1, 2017 21:36
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kustomkarkommando posted:I don't think the opposition should actively vote to curtail the amount of time to make speeches and harangue the government While calling them idiots in parliamentary language might be personally enjoyable they can just step outside and release as many statements as they like to the press. The only really important thing in the HoC is the voting and getting a sick burn on someone which makes the news.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:42
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Pochoclo posted:Then maybe don't talk to me about how amendments come at a later stage??? Just a thought. Labour wants to amend the bill and not block it, so they will be voting for amendments. Voting against the bill at this stage would be voting to block it. You might say they should try to block it, I'm not sure why 'amendments come later and can't be forced through' is a difficult concept. EDIT: I didn't say amendments wouldn't pass, I said they can't be forced through by Labour. Saying they should be more 'hardline' is meaningless. jabby fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Feb 1, 2017 21:43
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jabby posted:Labour wants to amend the bill and not block it, so they will be voting for amendments. Voting against the bill at this stage would be voting to block it. You might say they should try to block it, I'm not sure why 'amendments come later and can't be forced through' is a difficult concept. I've already told you. These amendments aren't going to happen.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:47
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Oh well now that you say it it's settled.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:48
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OwlFancier posted:Oh well now that you say it it's settled. What Pissflaps says is, and usually is, at least realistic.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:50
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Trying to get amendments passed after you made the strongest show in the world that you're willing to super-mega-roll-over, three-whippingly-fuckingly-strongly, is kind of the same as accepting a job for a certain salary saying "but I hope I can count on you to get a 100% raise after six months! but hahaha no big deal". Just not gonna loving happen.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:51
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I don't think the thread has a problem with an absence of depressive realism.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:52
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OwlFancier posted:Oh well now that you say it it's settled. You're attempting to rationalise Corbyn's actions by pinning your hopes on fanciful amendments that aren't going to be added to the bill. Labour are not opposing Brexit. They're not opposing this bill. They're doing gently caress all about t.
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Feb 1, 2017 21:53
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Pochoclo posted:Trying to get amendments passed after you made the strongest show in the world that you're willing to super-mega-roll-over, three-whippingly-fuckingly-strongly, is kind of the same as accepting a job for a certain salary saying "but I hope I can count on you to get a 100% raise after six months! but hahaha no big deal". Just not gonna loving happen. That... isn't really how our government works though. If you want to pass a bill with amendments, you have to support the bill until it gets to the amendment stage. If you have the facility you may then threaten to attempt to block it in order to force amendments through if the government cannot command a majority for whatever reason, but you are still dependent upon getting the bill to the amendment stage. Your other option would be to block the bill and try to get it reintroduced on your terms but good luck doing that with a minority of members and with the government now being really loving pissed that you showed them up the first time. If it sounds silly, well, our system of government is silly. The commons isn't designed to act as a check on itself in cases of majority governments. There is no control for that. Other than the house of lords who have limited power as an actual check on the government. It may be that they can get amendments passed but there ultimately just isn't a strong mechanism for stopping a majority government doing whatever it wants to. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Feb 1, 2017 |
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Feb 1, 2017 21:56
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The constantly bungling leader of the Labour Party has bungled one of the most challenging political events the country has faced in decades? who would have thought?
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Feb 1, 2017 21:58
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You've been banging on about opposing the bill being pointless because labour have a minority of MPs - but your genius plans involved 'threatening to block' it at the amendment stage?
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Feb 1, 2017 21:59
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Pochoclo posted:Trying to get amendments passed after you made the strongest show in the world that you're willing to super-mega-roll-over, three-whippingly-fuckingly-strongly, is kind of the same as accepting a job for a certain salary saying "but I hope I can count on you to get a 100% raise after six months! but hahaha no big deal". Just not gonna loving happen. You seem to be implying that by threatening to vote against the bill Labour would have a better chance of getting amendments passed, which is simply untrue.
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Feb 1, 2017 22:00
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Pissflaps posted:You've been banging on about opposing the hill being pointless because labour have a minority of MPs - but your genius plans involved 'threatening to block' it at the amendment stage? "If you have the facility"
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Feb 1, 2017 22:01
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OwlFancier posted:"If you have the facility" So your plan is for labour to not oppose the bill at any stage. Brilliant.
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Feb 1, 2017 22:02
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Labour can't meaningfully oppose the bill you dolt you know that perfectly well. They can vote however they like and the only effect it will have is on public perception.
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Feb 1, 2017 22:04
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I hope Tim Farron is repeatedly reminded that as a percentage, more Lib Dem MP's rebelled against his instructions than Labour MP's against Corbyn.
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Feb 1, 2017 22:05
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OwlFancier posted:Labour can't meaningfully oppose the bill you dolt. They can vote however they like and the only effect it will have is on public perception. Tell me what you think the point of the Opposition is, smart lad.
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Feb 1, 2017 22:05
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrlcTFV2Q6c
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Feb 1, 2017 22:05
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Pissflaps posted:Tell me what you think the point of the Opposition is, smart lad. 
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Feb 1, 2017 22:06
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namesake posted:While calling them idiots in parliamentary language might be personally enjoyable they can just step outside and release as many statements as they like to the press. The only really important thing in the HoC is the voting and getting a sick burn on someone which makes the news. Labour has been talking up how the amendment stage is the "real agenda" and the important parliamentary battle is the committee stage. Why vote to trim that down to a fast track timetable? If it's the centrepeice of your tactic you want to draw it out
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Feb 1, 2017 22:11
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This is quickly becoming ironic because recently Pissflaps has been pretty correct whenever this .gif has been deployed in retort.
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Feb 1, 2017 22:19
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Only one Tory rebel: Ken Clarke.
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Feb 1, 2017 22:28
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Pissflaps posted:Tell me what you think the point of the Opposition is, smart lad. I have to say it's making my head spin a lot that we started this whole thing with "Support Corbyn for a leader who will actually oppose the Government's evil plans!" and now we're not a million miles away from "Support Corbyn for a leader who recognises that we can't possibly oppose the Government's evil plans!"
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Feb 1, 2017 22:32
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Trin Tragula posted:I have to say it's making my head spin a lot that we started this whole thing with "Support Corbyn for a leader who will actually oppose the Government's evil plans!" and now we're not a million miles away from "Support Corbyn for a leader who recognises that we can't possibly oppose the Government's evil plans!" The cherry in top is Corbyn supposedly being the leader who does the 'right' thing, not the populist thing. And the people who supported him for that are now supporting this populist stance on Brexit. He could poo poo on their cat and they'd nod sagely and agree that it was the nuanced, principled thing to do. What a loving mess he's made.
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Feb 1, 2017 22:35
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TinTower posted:Only one Tory rebel: Ken Clarke. Did the Tories use a whip?
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Feb 1, 2017 22:35
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