Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
BexGu
Jan 9, 2004

This fucking day....

Proud Christian Mom posted:

As soon as I find a moderate actually willing to have a discussion I'll have one.

You'r not going to find that online unless you got out and just talk with people and their concerns. Also mobilize to get people to vote at the lowest level position as possible and work up, not top to bottom.

Proud Christian Mom posted:

Until then I'll keep trolling Trump supporters hoping they have a stroke.

That's why you can't find a moderate to have a discussion. If all you'r doing is trolling all your gonna find is trolls to fight.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006


VikingSkull posted:

The problem is moderates are seeing you trolling Trump supporters and then turning on the TV to see airports blocked and people getting assaulted and they are being pushed away. Someone has to be the adult here and if Republicans are such shitheels it has to be the Democrats. If they are also unwilling to be adults, each successive election we have from here on out is going to be the electorate throwing ever bigger anti-establishment and populist bombs into the machine. That's a loving dangerous gambit to gamble on.

I'm willing to gamble.

Number Ten Cocks
Feb 25, 2016

by zen death robot


CommieGIR posted:

Catering to ignorant asshats isn't going to win the Dems anything worth note.

What is?

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


Vengarr posted:

Digital Subscribers:

— 1923–1980: Your digital subscription includes 100 archive articles every four weeks in this date range (from January 1, 1923 through December 31, 1980). After you’ve reached the 100-article limit for the month, articles from 1923 through 1980 are $3.95 each.

— Pre-1923 and post-1980: Articles published before January 1, 1923 or after December 31, 1980 are free with your digital subscription and are not limited in any way.

Did not see that. Thanks.

BigDave posted:

I subscribe to the cheap version ($4.99, I think?) and I've been able to look at any article I like.

That's what I wanted to hear.

VikingSkull
Jan 23, 2017
Look Viking you're a trash Trump supporter what the fuck makes you think you can have an avatar that isn't what I decide? Shut your fucking trap and go away. Your trolling is tiresome and just shits up the forum.

Proud Christian Mom posted:

I'm willing to gamble.

Ok, that's fine. Thing is, you'll lose.

Personal anecdote here, but I'm center-left. I've talked to right wing people, and we respectfully disagree on a range of issues. I've talked to left wing people, and they call me a fascist, racist, xenophobe despite the fact that I'm pro-immigration, anti-corporation, pro-choice, pro-LGBT and all the rest.

Guess what side is pushing me away?

brand engager
Mar 23, 2011



VikingSkull posted:

The problem is moderates are seeing you trolling Trump supporters and then turning on the TV to see airports blocked and people getting assaulted and they are being pushed away. Someone has to be the adult here and if Republicans are such shitheels it has to be the Democrats. If they are also unwilling to be adults, each successive election we have from here on out is going to be the electorate throwing ever bigger anti-establishment and populist bombs into the machine. That's a loving dangerous gambit to gamble on.

That's a really long way to say "when they go low, we go high". That poo poo didn't work.

Handsome Ralph
Sep 3, 2004

Johnny Pussy?



TBeats posted:

Do you think the internet had anything to do with Donald Trump's election?

I think the echo chamber on the center left certainly helped drive down turnout and the seriousness in which Clinton's campaign took Trump. I remember when she announced she was running and people were already talking like she had already won. It was frustrating.

Godholio posted:

It also convinces them that you're not worth engaging. Look at how many people ignored Bernie based solely on his idiot supporters.
Agreed. Sure he said a lot of dumb poo poo, but he made a few valid points as well. But you had a lot of Clinton supporters ignoring it because ~~**pandering to the working class is racist**~~ while failing to realize that it isn't a binary choice and you can advocate for social advancement for minority groups while also pushing for income equality and more jobs, etc.. Even Our Lord and Savior Joe Biden said it was a poor choice on Clinton's part.

Number Ten Cocks
Feb 25, 2016

by zen death robot


Proud Christian Mom posted:

As soon as I find a moderate actually willing to have a discussion I'll have one. Until then I'll keep trolling Trump supporters hoping they have a stroke.

Are any of them so tired of winning yet that it's working? There's very little to be disappointed in as a Trump supporter and lots of reasons to throw back your head and roar with soul cleansing laughter.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


VikingSkull posted:

Ok, that's fine. Thing is, you'll lose.

Again.

quote:

Personal anecdote here, but I'm center-left. I've talked to right wing people, and we respectfully disagree on a range of issues. I've talked to left wing people, and they call me a fascist, racist, xenophobe despite the fact that I'm pro-immigration, anti-corporation, pro-choice, pro-LGBT and all the rest.

Guess what side is pushing me away?

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon


My question is this: "If Cowboys fans are dicks to me, does that make me more of an Eagles' fan? Or does it simply increase my hatred of the Cowboys, without deepening my affection for Nelson "drop it like its hot" Agholor"?

There is a clear link in the literature I've seen between partisan identity and anger towards the other side, but I'm not sure which causes which. Do I hate the Cowboys because I'm an Eagles fan, or am I an Eagles fan because I hate the Cowboys? In the latter case, why am I an Eagles fan instead of, say, a Redskins or Patriots fan? Was it because I identified with the Eagles to begin with, because I rationally selected the Eagles from among the 31 teams in the league (lol at the very concept), or because I didn't see any other viable options?

VikingSkull
Jan 23, 2017
Look Viking you're a trash Trump supporter what the fuck makes you think you can have an avatar that isn't what I decide? Shut your fucking trap and go away. Your trolling is tiresome and just shits up the forum.

SperginMcBadposter posted:

That's a really long way to say "when they go low, we go high". That poo poo didn't work.

No, Hillary didn't work.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


Vengarr posted:

My question is this: "If Cowboys fans are dicks to me, does that make me more of an Eagles' fan? Or does it simply increase my hatred of the Cowboys, without deepening my affection for Nelson "drop it like its hot" Agholor"?

There is a clear link in the literature I've seen between partisan identity and anger towards the other side, but I'm not sure which causes which. Do I hate the Cowboys because I'm an Eagles fan, or am I an Eagles fan because I hate the Cowboys? In the latter case, why am I an Eagles fan instead of, say, a Redskins or Patriots fan? Was it because I identified with the Eagles to begin with, because I rationally selected the Eagles from among the 31 teams in the league (lol at the very concept), or because I didn't see any other viable options?

You may also hate dogs.

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006


Policies that worked splendidly for the Democrats from 2008-2016:

Bipartisanship
Being the adult

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

If Godzilla can do it, you know I can deliver!


Pillbug

To be frank: I don't think reaching across the isle is going to solve anything this time, with a man like Bannon at the helm its just a way for them to get more of what they want, and what they want is reprehensible.

If your friends voted for Trump, they had to outright ignore all the proclamations that he would do EXACTLY what he is doing right now. I don't think claiming that you voted out of the hope for jobs/coal/etc. gives you any leeway in ignoring all the warning signs that were right out there in front.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


Proud Christian Mom posted:

Policies that worked splendidly for the Democrats from 2008-2016:

Bipartisanship
Being the adult

It's not going to work in loving Congress, but when you need common folk to agree with you during elections, maybe it's worth not pissing them off.

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon


Godholio posted:

You may also hate dogs.

Look, Vick was really sorry, alright?

sky shark
Jun 9, 2004

CHILD RAPE IS FINE WHEN I LIKE THE RAPIST


Paying only lip service to their ideals and hoping the common voter wouldn't notice worked pretty well nationally until this last election. Not so much at the state.

Trump stealing the rust belt, meeting with union leaders & his actions that have companies moving jobs to the US are things that voters notice. Trump stated that LGBT protections would continue to be enforced, removing another wedge issue. If Trump actually delivers on making concrete improvements to inner cities, there's a danger of him peeling away a sizable amount of support from what's been part of the Democratic base for decades.

Edit: I'm hoping this H1B reform goes through too, the double whammy of treating H1Bs like slave labor and using their below market wages to drive down wages for American workers has hosed over our tech base for a long time.

VikingSkull
Jan 23, 2017
Look Viking you're a trash Trump supporter what the fuck makes you think you can have an avatar that isn't what I decide? Shut your fucking trap and go away. Your trolling is tiresome and just shits up the forum.

Let's also not act like the US is a bubble of right wing tendencies, either. As we clutch our pearls here, Europe is cascading down the right wing rabbit hole, as well. There's far more to this than "welp facists", and it might just be that identity politics and neoliberalism isn't working as intended.

brand engager
Mar 23, 2011



VikingSkull posted:

No, Hillary didn't work.

We had 8 years of "being the adult", and all it got us was the gimped ACA and a lost SC seat. It didn't loving work, it isn't working now, it's not going to work in the future.

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon


Godholio posted:

It's not going to work in loving Congress, but when you need common folk to agree with you during elections, maybe it's worth not pissing them off.

The problem with this theory is that the Pubbies acted like children for 8 years, with no serious pushback from the electorate. The theory that you need to activate your base over attracting moderates/independents has proven smashingly effective in the face of a shrinking American center.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


SperginMcBadposter posted:

We had 8 years of "being the adult", and all it got us was the gimped ACA and a lost SC seat. It didn't loving work, it isn't working now, it's not going to work in the future.

Ignoring the fact that Congressional negotiating is vastly loving different from grassroots engagement of independent voters (which is what we're trying to shove down your eyeballs), what's your alternative? Because the course you're advocating got us President Donald P. Trump, and there's a non-zero chance that he'll be reelected if the left does the same poo poo.

sky shark
Jun 9, 2004

CHILD RAPE IS FINE WHEN I LIKE THE RAPIST

SperginMcBadposter posted:

We had 8 years of "being the adult", and all it got us was the gimped ACA and a lost SC seat. It didn't loving work, it isn't working now, it's not going to work in the future.

The ACA can't be blamed on anyone other than the Democratic party. They rammed that through without any Republican support, negotiation or even review... so it being hosed up is on them. That albatross can't be hung on the Republicans when Pelosi said "we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it"

Duzzy Funlop
Jan 13, 2010


We real cool. We
Left school. We

Lurk late. We
Strike straight. We

Sing sin. We
Thin gin. We

Jazz June. We
Die soon.


BexGu posted:

You'r not going to find that online unless you got out and just talk with people and their concerns. Also mobilize to get people to vote at the lowest level position as possible and work up, not top to bottom.


That's why you can't find a moderate to have a discussion. If all you'r doing is trolling all your gonna find is trolls to fight.

Whenever I discuss politics with the few Trump-supporting friends of mine, it's immediately evident that they rely almost entirely on gut-feeling and constant reaffirmation that their expectations will be fulfilled by Trump and his surrogates. They have hope, because they actually want America to be "great again". Cool, good for them. If the argument stopped there, that'd be fine. But that's no basis for a discussion.

Any actual discussion is just flagrant goal-post-moving, evasion and strawman bullshittery. I've seen the same from friends that were hanging an inch off Obama's cock during times where I disagreed with his administration, but Trump supporters seem to be literally nothing else.

From a legal or societal standpoint, I absolutely agree with sky shark's argument that no president should be offing fools without due process anywhere. Therefore, Obama doing it was just as bad as Trump doing it is now. My Robinson/Clancy-novel-reading rear end, however, also has the gut feeling that sometimes, fools need a' poppin' for the bottom line. I KNOW that this isn't a valid argument, and I wouldn't bring it up in a discussion. Trump supporters will, because gut feeling, completely devoid of any factual support or morality, is somehow a valid argument to them.

The reason I ignore sky shark (not actual ignore-list ignore), is because in like 90% of the cases I've perceived his posting, he's been no-poo poo trolling, or contradicting himself between two pages of posting for the purpose of loving with people or the thread. That's loving retarded and I'm to old (literally, as in "I'm too old to have the energy" not as in "too mature") to engage his dumb poo poo.

That, however, is now turning into "YOU'RE PART/ALL OF THE PROBLEM, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ENGAGING POOR SKY SHARK/TRUMP SUPPORTERS IN REASONABLE DISCUSSION". And loving to that.

Naked Bear
Apr 15, 2007

Boners was recorded before a studio audience that was alive!


Jesus loving Christ, people, this retarded internet slapfight has been going on for months now. Try posting about actual current events instead of just endlessly bitching at each other, it's loving childish. When was the last time somebody posted something of substance in here (tweets don't count)?

If you want to get angry at somebody, get angry at these asshats:

http://www.philly.com/philly/health/Pharma-firm--Opioid-Overdose-Antidote-Then-Raising-The-Price.html

Phily.com posted:

As opioid deaths rise, pharma firm hikes price of antidote more than six-fold
Va. company says discounts blunt impact of cost

First came Martin Shkreli, the brash young pharmaceutical entrepreneur who raised the price for an AIDS treatment by 5,000 percent. Then, Heather Bresch, the CEO of Mylan, who oversaw the price hike for its signature Epi-Pen to more than $600 for a twin-pack, though its active ingredient costs pennies by comparison.

Now a small Virginia company called Kaleo is joining their ranks. It makes an injector device that is suddenly in demand because of the nation's epidemic use of opioids, a class of drugs that includes heavy painkillers and heroin.

Called Evzio, it is used to deliver naloxone, a life-saving antidote to overdoses of opioids. More than 33,000 people are believed to have died from such overdoses in 2015, and deaths soared at a record pace in 2016, including all over the Philadelphia area.

And as demand for Kaleo's product has grown, the privately held firm has raised its twin-pack price to $4,500, from $690 in 2014.

Founded by twin brothers Eric and Evan Edwards, 36, the company first sought to develop an Epi-Pen competitor, thanks to their own food allergies.

Now, they've taken that model and marketed it for a major public health crisis. It's another auto-injector that delivers an inexpensive medicine.

One difference, though, is that Evzio talks users through the process as they inject naloxone. The company says the talking device is worth the price because it can guide anyone to jab an overdose victim correctly, leave the needle in for the right amount of time and potentially save his or her life.

According to Food and Drug Administration estimates, the Kaleo product, which won federal approval in 2014, accounted for nearly 20 percent of the naloxone dispensed through retail outlets between 2015 and 2016, and for nearly half of all naloxone products prescribed to patients between ages 40 and 64 — the group that comprises the bulk of naloxone users.

And the cost of generic, injectable naloxone — which has been on the market since 1971 — has been climbing. A 10-mililiter vial sold by one of the dominant vendors costs close to $150, more than double its price from even a few years ago, and far beyond the production costs of the naloxone chemical, researchers say. The other common injectable, which comes in a smaller but more potent dose, costs closer to $40, still about double its 2009 cost.
...
Kaleo, which is trying to blunt the pricing backlash and turn Evzio into the trusted brand, is dispensing its device for free — to cities, first responders and drug treatment programs. Such donations were also essential to the Epi-Pen's business strategy.
...
Prior kits contained a pre-filled syringe. The Evzio was the first to help laypeople dispense the drug. And competition is limited: One of the few consumer-friendly alternatives to Evzio is a nasal spray device for naloxone.
...
The Evzio could be ideal, especially when medical professionals are not nearby, noted Traci Green, an associate professor at Boston University's School of Medicine. But the price limits access.

"It's a really good product," she said. "It's elegant. People do like it — but they can't afford it."
...
But consumers may not yet be pinched. In another Mylan parallel, Kaleo offers coupons to patients with private insurance, so they don't have any co-pay when they pick up the device.

So Kaleo would say the price hikes are essentially moot. Herzog said they are necessary to subsidize programs that do not offer copayments. In a follow-up email, he added that the list price is "not a true gauge," because insurance companies can sometimes negotiate rebates and discounts. And, he said, since the price increase, more patients have gotten Evzio prescriptions filled — so the cost doesn't seem to be stopping them.

Mylan provides a similar Epi-Pen discount — a move that's helped cement it as the dominant epinephrine provider. But even if consumers don't directly pay for the price increases, they're affected, analysts cautioned.

"When you have these kinds of programs, the cost is still borne by patients, because insurance premiums go up," Beletsky said.
...
That's not true everywhere, though. The Veterans Health Administration, known for its especially high rate of patients taking opioid-based prescription painkillers, covers the auto-injector. It can do so, though, because of its bargaining power — the agency is legally authorized to negotiate with pharmaceutical companies.

As a result, the VA is paying "far, far less" than the Evzio list price, said Joseph Canzolino, deputy chief consultant for pharmaceutical benefits management at the VA. (He would not release the precise figure.)

The agency's buying power is such, he added, that even when companies drive up prices, what the VA pays will stay more or less stable — far below a figure he called "pretty exorbitant."
...
But that money comes from somewhere — most likely taxpayers. And it's hardly sustainable, Price noted, saying "at some point in time the rubber's got to hit the road."

Kaleo has given away more than 180,000 devices, Herzog said, distributed in 34 states among about 250 organizations such as police departments and nonprofit groups that distribute naloxone to people at risk of overdose.
...
But those who've accepted free Evzio devices and have come to rely on it may soon face withdrawal. Last year, Kaleo's donation supply was exhausted by July. Herzog said the company has added to its donation supply and is taking applications from groups hoping for free devices.
...
"Epi-Pen happened, and everyone was like, ‘Wow, this is terrible, we shouldn't allow this to happen,'" he said. "And we haven't done anything about that, and it's not clear what the solution is. Now, shocker, it's happening again."

joat mon
Oct 15, 2009

I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.


sky shark posted:

The ACA can't be blamed on anyone other than the Democratic party. They rammed that through without any Republican support, negotiation or even review... so it being hosed up is on them. That albatross can't be hung on the Republicans when Pelosi said "we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it"

How does the history cutoff thing work? Trump's EO is fine and handy because in the past a democrat slowed refugee entry to ensure an actual threat didn't recur, I get that. But how do you get to deny the health care reform fuckery that came before the ACA that made it unfortunately the only viable solution?

Nostalgia4Infinity
Feb 27, 2007

10,000 YEARS WASN'T ENOUGH LURKING

Duzzy Funlop posted:

That, however, is now turning into "YOU'RE PART/ALL OF THE PROBLEM, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ENGAGING POOR SKY SHARK/TRUMP SUPPORTERS IN REASONABLE DISCUSSION". And loving to that.

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

Man-oh-man, Cowboy looks like a bag of leftovers from a V.F.W. barbecue. Of
course, I've got nothing against dead people. Why, some of my best friends are dead

If anyone is unsure of fascism, here's what the Holocaust museum has to say.

bloops
Dec 30, 2010

Thanks Ape Pussy!


Personally, I'll hardly ever side with the person who is telling me that my country is garbage. My most difficult hurdle to cross is not believing trump supporters aren't cowards who equate toughness with cowardly acts driven by fear.

Hot Karl Marx
Mar 16, 2009

Politburo regulations about social distancing require to downgrade your Karlmarxing to cold, and sorry about the dnc primaries, please enjoy!


gently caress it, it's Khmer Rouge time

(Edit woah thread moved really quick, maybe ignore)

sky shark
Jun 9, 2004

CHILD RAPE IS FINE WHEN I LIKE THE RAPIST

joat mon posted:

How does the history cutoff thing work? Trump's EO is fine and handy because in the past a democrat slowed refugee entry to ensure an actual threat didn't recur, I get that. But how do you get to deny the health care reform fuckery that came before the ACA that made it unfortunately the only viable solution?

Nobody forced them to ram a lovely bill down everyone's throat. And Trump's EO was incompetent in it's execution with the Green cards / valid visas. Comparing that to the naked "let's make the insurance companies rich" payday of ACA though? LOL.




I like the time where I provided a well sourced & cited argument about how certain policies have always been racist and you turned around and took shots at my kids & got called out by multiple posters. The problem isn't people like me. The problem is people like you who, when they get an inkling of power, act as petty tyrants and run off dissenting voices. HTH

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006


When your problem is useless centrists like Obama, Clinton and half the Senate, your answer is not to keep electing the same useless people. And if that doesn't work then congrats, the Republicans won because if the choice is between GOP or GOP-lite, people will pick 100% GOP.

BigDave
Jul 14, 2009

Taste the High Country


Naked Bear posted:

Jesus loving Christ, people, this retarded internet slapfight has been going on for months now. Try posting about actual current events instead of just endlessly bitching at each other, it's loving childish. When was the last time somebody posted something of substance in here (tweets don't count)?

If you want to get angry at somebody, get angry at these asshats:

http://www.philly.com/philly/health/Pharma-firm--Opioid-Overdose-Antidote-Then-Raising-The-Price.html

I AM NOW ANGRY AT THESE ASSHATS

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon


sky shark posted:

I like the time where I provided a well sourced & cited argument about how certain policies have always been racist and you turned around and took shots at my kids & got called out by multiple posters. The problem isn't people like me. The problem is people like you who, when they get an inkling of power, act as petty tyrants and run off dissenting voices. HTH

Please contemplate whether you are not, in fact, part of the problem as well.

brand engager
Mar 23, 2011



Remember obama nominated a moderate to the SC as a compromise, but the right has rejected it to appoint neo-scalia instead. "Being the adult" doesn't loving work.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

If Godzilla can do it, you know I can deliver!


Pillbug

sky shark posted:

Edit: I'm hoping this H1B reform goes through too, the double whammy of treating H1Bs like slave labor and using their below market wages to drive down wages for American workers has hosed over our tech base for a long time.

Its not going to do anything but gut state side positions when the H1Bs disappear. Companies are not going to invest more money into something they pay so little for right now.

Its quite literally the equivalent of "Trump will bring back the Jobs", oh, the jobs will come back, but the number of position with be 1/100th of what they were prior due to consolidation and automation.

sky shark posted:

I like the time where I provided a well sourced & cited argument about how certain policies have always been racist and you turned around and took shots at my kids & got called out by multiple posters. The problem isn't people like me. The problem is people like you who, when they get an inkling of power, act as petty tyrants and run off dissenting voices. HTH

You are part of the problem.

VikingSkull
Jan 23, 2017
Look Viking you're a trash Trump supporter what the fuck makes you think you can have an avatar that isn't what I decide? Shut your fucking trap and go away. Your trolling is tiresome and just shits up the forum.

Hot Karl Marx posted:

gently caress it, it's Khmer Rouge time

(Edit woah thread moved really quick, maybe ignore)

I think you'll find that executing educated elites and depopulating cities in favor of a rural lifestyle is wildly unpopular in this thread!

Naked Bear
Apr 15, 2007

Boners was recorded before a studio audience that was alive!


BigDave posted:

I AM NOW ANGRY AT THESE ASSHATS
Thank you!

Hot Karl Marx
Mar 16, 2009

Politburo regulations about social distancing require to downgrade your Karlmarxing to cold, and sorry about the dnc primaries, please enjoy!


Well people are going to die regardless, lets just make sure they're killing the 'right ones'

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon


BigDave posted:

I AM NOW ANGRY AT THESE ASSHATS

My volunteer EMS squad had a member stand up and suggest we get some auto-injectors...in case we accidentally come into skin contact with Carfentinil.

When I suggested that we would undoubtedly end up using them on a junkie before ourselves, he said "No, it would be reserved solely for us."

Slightly maybe pretty illegal.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Number Ten Cocks
Feb 25, 2016

by zen death robot


Sessions passed committee. Another good day.

  • Locked thread