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Comfy Fleece Sweater
Apr 2, 2013


Outpost22 posted:

Now that I think about it I never did destroy the rebel fleet in FTL on hard difficulty and only once on normal. But on easy I beat it plenty of times and had no regrets

There is no glory in beating FTL on hard, either the randomness screws you over or doesn’t

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Chomp8645
Sep 1, 2006

Vvardenfell awaits.



Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

There is no glory in beating FTL on hard, either the randomness screws you over or doesn’t

True, but until you beat it on normal you haven't beaten it.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

HONKING IS VIOLENCE


QuarkJets posted:

I liked Binding of Isaac for awhile when it came out, it felt like playing Zelda which was a pretty rare experience at the time, even the Nintendo releases in that genre had mostly gone 3D. There were other top-down perspective games but none managed to capture that feeling.

Once you clear Isaac a bunch the gambling mechanics make themselves clear. Those are why the game remained popular and gained so much word-of-mouth marketing, of course people are going to talk about a game that so successfully hits those pleasure buttons.

BoI + Necrodancer would be such a fun jam. BoI always felt like "too much" with so much of it being obtuse and the whole aesthetic just doesn't work fro me. The Zelda Necrodancer game was really fun and good but braindead easy and very short. Together they could do great work. I know regular Necrodancer exists and is much deeper than the zelda one but I ain't ever get into it the same idk.

PinheadSlim posted:

Dwarf Fortress isn't trying to be a good video game, it's outsider art that happens to be more interesting than most video games. Whoever thinks Rimworld is somehow a Dwarf Fortress substitute is absolutely missing the point.

If we could grant Toady1 everlasting life, I think he would be the person to create the first working simulation of reality, assuming we aren't already in such a simulation, in which case, i want more cave turnips please.

Sid Vicious
Jan 1, 1970



Right now the roguelites I'm enjoying the most are caveblazers on my switch and vagante on the PC

Flavahbeast
Jul 21, 2001

awoo

I didnt love Alpha protocol, it wasn't bad it just felt like Deus Ex but with more linear maps and less charm, like Deus Ex 2 but better

The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


Flavahbeast posted:

I didnt love Alpha protocol, it wasn't bad it just felt like Deus Ex but with more linear maps and less charm, like Deus Ex 2 but better

nah man that's a fair take. alpha protocol was my first western science fiction rpg (japanese science fiction rpgs being star ocean) and having had nothing to compare it to really means my view of it is especially favorable

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

Flavahbeast posted:

I didnt love Alpha protocol, it wasn't bad it just felt like Deus Ex but with more linear maps and less charm, like Deus Ex 2 but better

It's a game that benefits best from easy difficulty and multiple play-throughs. You can get some insane outcomes depending on who you partner with/seduce/get seduced by

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on


Pillbug

The fact that there’s a character who reacts differently depending on if you’re an unprofessional dick just to him to get under his skin (which he actually respects) or an unprofessional dick in general (which he hates) is awesome. It leads to a very different outcome for something.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

Outpost22 posted:

Now that I think about it I never did destroy the rebel fleet in FTL on hard difficulty and only once on normal. But on easy I beat it plenty of times and had no regrets

I beat FTL once and I'm not sure how. Pretty sure it was on easy though.

Though the true final boss of Slay the Spire is considered bullshit even by people really good at the game- I get the impression that it's pretty hard to design a final boss for a roguelike-style game that isn't bullshit arbitrary difficulty.

The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


Chomp8645 posted:

True, but until you beat it on normal you haven't beaten it.

i beat ftl on easy

that's enough for me

poverty goat
Feb 15, 2004




bearded thorton/ali shaheed bros for life

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

There is no glory in beating FTL on hard, either the randomness screws you over or doesn’t

this is actually only true for the first sector, there are a few situations where you can get hosed on your first or second jump, this isn't good but once you survive your first couple jumps to the first store there's no longer any excuse for why you shouldn't be able to win. ftl hard mode owns and i can win on it consistently, people who say you shouldn't play it are wrong

i think the RNG danger in sector 1 is just kind of the "price" you pay for having a roguelike that is really well balanced in the late game. you don't just have to play well, you have to snowball the game or you will lose, sector 1 is where you haven't had any chance to prepare yet so that's the most dangerous point in the game but whatever you can just restart if you get a lovely first jump

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

the key to avoiding RNG poo poo is to just build a very strongly offensive ship that attacks before the enemy can do much, or has certain kinds of defenses (cloak or zoltshield) that allow you to use longer charged weapons, RNG can only hurt you if you expose yourself to it by not immediately poking holes in the weapon room

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on


Pillbug

Shibawanko posted:

the key to avoiding RNG poo poo is to just build a very strongly offensive ship that attacks before the enemy can do much, or has certain kinds of defenses (cloak or zoltshield) that allow you to use longer charged weapons, RNG can only hurt you if you expose yourself to it by not immediately poking holes in the weapon room

The issue is being able to build that ship is dependent on lucky rolls for drops and shop inventory.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

Ugly In The Morning posted:

The issue is being able to build that ship is dependent on lucky rolls for drops and shop inventory.

there's nearly always a way though, maybe you don't get the ideal ship but it's very rare that the game doesn't give you any tools at all. i believe shops have a certain fixed minimum droprate for hacking since it pretty much always shows up and it's super useful for everything, even if you don't get hacking it will give you lasers, either will do the job if you use them well

FTL is a super deep game and i love how it has all kinds of little tricks that you can learn to deal with bullshit, like the hacking drone depower trick or intentionally shooting down enemy drones or the ways in which you can kill boarders and enemy crew by confusing them and doing the room shuffle. it's probably the best game on steam next to la mulana and i guess spelunky but i havent played that yet

Caesar Saladin
Aug 15, 2004

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

play spelunky, it is the Mayor of Video Games, its a roguelike that you can always beat if you're skillful enough but also has enough variety and challenge in the runs that you will keep coming back.

JollyBoyJohn
Feb 13, 2019



Spelunky rules and I am very much waiting for Spelunky 2 to get released

Eve Online is the most bizarre "game" I've never seen in the flesh, I knew 2 people who played it extensively and both remained perpetually unemployed till their 30's

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

We've never been into punk. It was too traditional.


I can't really appreciate Rougelite as a genre because the first one I played was Spelunky and it's 10 times better than any of the other ones I've played, they all just feel way bad by comparison.

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

We've never been into punk. It was too traditional.


Sort of related to the rougelite thing, but UVGO: top down 360° shooters are a bad genre. Using the stick to shoot in 360 sucks and isn't fun. The only company that actually makes good ones is Housemarque but their best game (resogun) is still just a horizontal shooter, which is clearly the best way to make a 2D shooter. Vertical is fine too but horizontal is king. 360 bad.

KonvexKonkav
Mar 5, 2014



veni veni veni posted:

I can't really appreciate Rougelite as a genre because the first one I played was Spelunky and it's 10 times better than any of the other ones I've played, they all just feel way bad by comparison.

The only "roguelite" that I've really enjoyed is Slay the Spire so I can understand that sentiment. I hated Binding of Isaac. Rogue Legacy as well as Enter the Gungeon were also pretty unfun for me. Haven't played Spelunky though but will try it out if it's released on Switch.

In general, I like indie games more when they're strategy or puzzle games as these genres seem to work better with the lower budget/manpower that comes with the "indie" tag. Haven't played a bad indie game in those genres yet but far too many terrible or mediocre indie action titles that got good reviews. A major exception is Furi though which ruled.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



Spelunky is a goddamn treasure, and it's also totally free. It, alongside FTL, pioneered how the roguelike design ethos can be applied to other genres and makes beautiful new things. If you removed 'ascii' and 'turn-based' it'd slot right in to the Berlin Definition, for those who care.

Derek Yu deserves more money is what I'm saying here, and I really should look up what he's been up to.

Caesar Saladin
Aug 15, 2004

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

Spelunky free version is good but you should absolutely buy the real version because the dude deserves the cash and its very pretty. Its really insane how well designed Spelunky is. I've never played a platformer that uses the same thought process, the way you survey the screen and your resources to figure out what the safest path is, whether obstacles are worth avoiding or confronting, and how your thought process completely changes based on the items you've picked up. When I finally beat spelunky, i didn't even have a good item set, I just had a really good run where I nailed all the moves I was planning and adapted quickly.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

i'll give spelunky a try soon, i own the game anyway and i like that sort of game

i also had fun with dungeon of the endless but i don't really like its artstyle at all, it looks so bland

Rutibex
Sep 9, 2001

Forums Rutabaga

Sid Vicious posted:

Right now the roguelites I'm enjoying the most are caveblazers on my switch and vagante on the PC

dang it you should have said it was good earlier. I was very close to buying this but its not on sale any more

Rutibex fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Jun 4, 2020

The Breakfast Sampler
Jan 1, 2006




KonvexKonkav posted:

The only "roguelite" that I've really enjoyed is Slay the Spire so I can understand that sentiment.

I hated Binding of Isaac.

same on both counts, slay the spire was fantastic, I can't remember the last game I got sucked into for multiple hours like that. most of em just don't hold my attention like that anymore.

I also hated Binding of Isaac, but mostly for the aesthetics? that's what I hated the most, anyway. I feel like I gave it enough time to decide I really, really didn't care for it. it was one of those "the children must be wrong" moments for me because it was so popular for awhile (still is?) props to the dev for creating something which I found (and still find) completely repulsive, I guess- that is saying something. I don't consider much offensive or gross.

Rutibex
Sep 9, 2001

Forums Rutabaga

Serephina posted:

If you removed 'ascii' and 'turn-based' it'd slot right in to the Berlin Definition, for those who care.

my favorite rogue-like is Diablo 2

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



Rutibex posted:

my favorite rogue-like is Diablo 2

Nah, that's more of a Souls-like I feel.

KonvexKonkav
Mar 5, 2014



The Breakfast Sampler posted:

same on both counts, slay the spire was fantastic, I can't remember the last game I got sucked into for multiple hours like that. most of em just don't hold my attention like that anymore.

I also hated Binding of Isaac, but mostly for the aesthetics? that's what I hated the most, anyway. I feel like I gave it enough time to decide I really, really didn't care for it. it was one of those "the children must be wrong" moments for me because it was so popular for awhile (still is?) props to the dev for creating something which I found (and still find) completely repulsive, I guess- that is saying something. I don't consider much offensive or gross.

I agree. I don't like the mechanics, but it's the aesthetics of Binding of Isaac that I despise the most. Just the vilest, most repulsive teenage edgelord poo poo imaginable.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

KonvexKonkav posted:

I agree. I don't like the mechanics, but it's the aesthetics of Binding of Isaac that I despise the most. Just the vilest, most repulsive teenage edgelord poo poo imaginable.

yeah this is why i could never play that game. gently caress that

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised

That's kind of exactly what the game was going for, mind. Binding of Isaac is very much a product of its time.

JollyBoyJohn
Feb 13, 2019



KonvexKonkav posted:

I agree. I don't like the mechanics, but it's the aesthetics of Binding of Isaac that I despise the most. Just the vilest, most repulsive teenage edgelord poo poo imaginable.

I've never really considered this would be problematic for some people, at least not to the level you are describing but I've always felt despite being gross its a very stylish game. I suppose the poop and dead babies and stuff are a bit gross but Super Meat Boy and The End is Nigh showed McMillen has a bit of magic to his game design.

Rutibex
Sep 9, 2001

Forums Rutabaga

KonvexKonkav posted:

I agree. I don't like the mechanics, but it's the aesthetics of Binding of Isaac that I despise the most. Just the vilest, most repulsive teenage edgelord poo poo imaginable.

garbage pail kids the game

venomsnek
Apr 13, 2018

THE KING UTTERED SOMETHING

Isaac truly embodies the New Grounds spirit

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

HONKING IS VIOLENCE


Rutibex posted:

my favorite rogue-like is Diablo 2

Diablo was better. Diablo 2 is like some proto-looter-shooter MMO thing that became popular later. Diablo was just better, didn't waste your time with endless grinding (so that you could...grind endlessly more but this time it takes... about the same amount of time as always), and lead you through a chilling descent into hell itself. Diablo 2 took that gothic descent into hell concept and made it it into an action RPG adventure quest, "hail adventurer! go into location and get me 12 boar guts i mean get a cube" and it just turned the series into a different direction entirely. Diablo 3 was pretty nakedly World of Warcraft without the "massive."

The contemporary ARPG genre just sucks, it's literally built around an addictive but pointless and fruitless gameplay loop designed to take as much your time as possible with the least amount of content creation work on their end.

Re: Binding of Isaac art: The peepee poopoo stuff really doesn't bother me, done right I love it, hell, my fictional goblin universe has plenty of stupid gross things casually incorporated into itself I think a city set on the butthole of a dead god is a cool idea and nobody can stop me from continuing to make it.

The problem with BoI is that the art is just loving ugly. The original is like mainlining early 00s newgrounds and I can't hit the blam button hard enough. They even go through all this trouble of making unique items and body parts to customize your character as you acquire stuff, really cool concept, but it's all in that offensively ugly flash-art style of someone using the brush tool and their mouse to "draw." The sequel/remake had an opportunity to improve itself graphically but very bizarrely decided to double down and spent time making comparatively high-effort pixel-art versions that in gestalt and in action... look exactly like the original.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

someday he would have an anchor tattooed on his chest

JollyBoyJohn posted:

I've never really considered this would be problematic for some people, at least not to the level you are describing but I've always felt despite being gross its a very stylish game. I suppose the poop and dead babies and stuff are a bit gross but Super Meat Boy and The End is Nigh showed McMillen has a bit of magic to his game design.

i dont want to play super meat boy either because of the same reason, i just dont like the newgrounds look at all

veni veni veni
Jun 5, 2005

We've never been into punk. It was too traditional.


Super meat boy at least has decent looking pixel art in game. The entirety of BOI looks like the SMB cutscenes. I've always been way put off by the art style.

Rutibex
Sep 9, 2001

Forums Rutabaga

Khanstant posted:

The contemporary ARPG genre just sucks, it's literally built around an addictive but pointless and fruitless gameplay loop designed to take as much your time as possible with the least amount of content creation work on their end.

ARPGs are are basically just Gauntlet with a slot machine attached. nothing wrong with that, its good fun so long as they dont do any funny business with monetizing the loot

The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


Shibawanko posted:

i'll give spelunky a try soon, i own the game anyway and i like that sort of game

i also had fun with dungeon of the endless but i don't really like its artstyle at all, it looks so bland

but it has samus!!!!

dungeon of the endless is, well it's ok. a single playthrough is obscenely long-lived for a randomly generated tower defense game however. the visuals are like whatever, to me it's just that generic early 90s american style spritework with way too many particle effects, which doesn't click with me at all because we didn't have a PC in the early 90s and i was spoiled by ps-era particles which are so controlled and detailed that they just look like handmade sprites

KonvexKonkav posted:

I agree. I don't like the mechanics, but it's the aesthetics of Binding of Isaac that I despise the most. Just the vilest, most repulsive teenage edgelord poo poo imaginable.

i call the "everything is covered in poo poo, piss, blood, and aborted fetuses isn't this so Mature and Dark!" aesthetic, Copropunk

The White Dragon fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Jun 4, 2020

food court bailiff
Oct 2, 2007

fast n furious foodstuff



Soiled Meat

Rutibex posted:

ARPGs are are basically just Gauntlet with a slot machine attached. nothing wrong with that, its good fun so long as they dont do any funny business with monetizing the loot

RMAH Did Nothing Wrong

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Lodin
Jul 31, 2003

Your friendly neighborhood bop



Caesar Saladin posted:

Spelunky free version is good but you should absolutely buy the real version because the dude deserves the cash and its very pretty. Its really insane how well designed Spelunky is. I've never played a platformer that uses the same thought process, the way you survey the screen and your resources to figure out what the safest path is, whether obstacles are worth avoiding or confronting, and how your thought process completely changes based on the items you've picked up. When I finally beat spelunky, i didn't even have a good item set, I just had a really good run where I nailed all the moves I was planning and adapted quickly.

Spelunky was the first game I ever saw my niece actually figure out. Like there's more to it than move stick = character moves. I had to start explaining the game rules and goals. Eventually she managed to get through the first stage. This was at five.
These days her younger brother only plays Call of Duty and FIFA. Meanwhile, the other night I got a Steam-pop up that she was playing loving Snowrunner.

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