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JMolen posted:Holy poo poo Fok! still exists? I though that poo poo died back in the old Hyves days. It unfortunately still exists. I read it sometimes to see what absolutely insane people in my country think.
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Mar 15, 2017 22:49
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Panama Red posted:4:06 PM EST Currently about 95% of votes are counted. These are the preliminary results, but the final results could still have a 1 or 2 seat difference. VVD 33 PVV 20 CDA 19 D66 19 SP 14 GL 14 PvdA 9 CU 5 PvdD 5 50+ 4 SGP 3 Denk 3 FvD 2 The towns that are still counting say they expect to have results either later today or tomorrow, giving us the 'definite prognosis'. After that they will start double-checking, and the official results are expected to come in next Tuesday. Those shouldn't change from the definite prognosis unless a large counting error is discovered. That's when the coalition negotiations start, you can expect it'll take 1 - 2 months before we actually know what the governing coalition will be.
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Mar 16, 2017 07:50
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I don't think negotiations will be difficult at all. It's pretty clear what this will be. VVD-CDA-D66 by themselves already have 71 seats, they just need to add CU or the gimps from PvdA.
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Mar 16, 2017 08:03
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D66 had quite a green program, same with CU, who even talked about climate change as one of the few. I'm sure they will try and get that in any agreements. .... Right? 
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Mar 16, 2017 08:11
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9-Volt Assault posted:D66 had quite a green program, same with CU, who even talked about climate change as one of the few. I'm sure they will try and get that in any agreements. Sure, for about five seconds.
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Mar 16, 2017 08:18
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Shibawanko posted:It unfortunately still exists. I read it sometimes to see what absolutely insane people in my country think. I once saw a discussion with a guy who believed levelling (nivelleren) is wrong and a proper government should run a policy of denivellering. I can't even what gently caress poo poo.
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Mar 16, 2017 08:42
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Thanks for not electing another crazy haired racist, Netherlands.
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Mar 16, 2017 08:45
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Orange Devil posted:I once saw a discussion with a guy who believed levelling (nivelleren) is wrong and a proper government should run a policy of denivellering. I can't even what gently caress poo poo. That's just a run of the mill opinion there though. Post anything in favor of the welfare state and you'll get like two or three dorks all over you saying "oh, so you want to level incomes?? hahah poor child". I'd say FvD would get 20% of the vote among those people. It's full of people with Trump avatars, Patrick Bateman avatars and names like SJWhater and so on. There's people who have been posting the same bad faith poo poo for over 20 years on there, which kind of makes me suspect it's full of trolls paid by some right wing organisation or something.
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Mar 16, 2017 08:49
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AceOfFlames posted:Thanks for not electing another crazy haired racist, Netherlands. Dont worry, VVD and CDA became pretty much even worse than Wilders in their attempt to lure his voters, so we got our racist bases covered! 9-Volt Assault fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 08:51
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9-Volt Assault posted:D66 had quite a green program, same with CU, who even talked about climate change as one of the few. I'm sure they will try and get that in any agreements. Nope! CDA farmers don't want it. Instead, Pechtold will get some horrible education reform policies and probably the ministry of education which sounds nice until you realise that he basically wants to turn education into a factory for obedient employees and skilled managers and doesn't actually care about the quality of education. CU is just there to stop euthanasia and abortion.
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Mar 16, 2017 08:53
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Shibawanko posted:Nope! CDA farmers don't want it. Instead, Pechtold will get some horrible education reform policies and probably the ministry of education which sounds nice until you realise that he basically wants to turn education into a factory for obedient employees and skilled managers and doesn't actually care about the quality of education. Yeah, this is what expect. Last time CU was in government they got their own special ministry, so maybe that will happen again. 
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Mar 16, 2017 08:55
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Then again I'm also crazy and want education to revert to a trivium-quadrivium system where you teach people to read and speak really really well and read nothing but Cicero for 20 years and then trust them to be autodidacts in whatever field they choose.
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Mar 16, 2017 08:58
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As the official special ambassador from the Germany thread, I wish to express our most dispassionate and subdued congratulations. Also one guy told me I should compliment you guys on speaking better German than he Austrians, and another guy something about orange suits.
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Mar 16, 2017 09:33
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Shibawanko posted:I don't think negotiations will be difficult at all. It's pretty clear what this will be. VVD-CDA-D66 by themselves already have 71 seats, they just need to add CU or the gimps from PvdA. CU can only provide 5 seats so it'll be a coalition with a 1-seat majority. One more Wilders or Kuzu and there goes your government. Much more likely they'll add PvdA or GL.
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Mar 16, 2017 09:46
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As for why the SP didn't win more seats, it's because of their tone and energy. What depressed me the most was when I listened to a radio interview with Liliane Marijnissen and she answered questions in the same obviously media trained manner in which PvdA politicians do. Like answering every question with "I have two things to say to that, firstly [platitude to stall for time], secondly [platitude the first platitude was stalling for]" and the same awful phrases like "taking responsibility" and so on. There is nothing wrong with the energy of Wilders. There is nothing wrong with vitriol, shouting and sometimes swearing at or mocking your opponents in politics. Roemer should have appeared in random working class areas, climbing soap boxes Lenin-style and shouting, mocking Wilders for his stupidity, the VVD for its connections to organised crime and the PvdA for their unprincipled corruption. That's what people are waiting for.
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Mar 16, 2017 10:06
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Shibawanko posted:As for why the SP didn't win more seats, it's because of their tone and energy. What depressed me the most was when I listened to a radio interview with Liliane Marijnissen and she answered questions in the same obviously media trained manner in which PvdA politicians do. Like answering every question with "I have two things to say to that, firstly [platitude to stall for time], secondly [platitude the first platitude was stalling for]" and the same awful phrases like "taking responsibility" and so on. I agree. Marijnissen at least had that energy and passion that Roemer is lacking. The SP should go back to embracing their socialistic roots, instead of being a kind of PvdA-lite in their opinions. We have the PvdD saying out loud that capitalism is bad for the environment, so SP should be able to do the same, but for workers. Also, Rob Oudkerk, former member of PvdA in both parliament and Amsterdam, said the PvdA should consider disbanding itself.
9-Volt Assault fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 10:22
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9-Volt Assault posted:I agree. Marijnissen at least had that energy and passion that Roemer is lacking. The SP should go back to embracing their socialistic roots, instead of being a kind of PvdA-lite in their opinions. We have the PvdD saying out loud that capitalism is bad for the environment, so SP should be able to do the same, but for workers. I watched Marijnissen (the elder) sitting across from Rutte during Jinek and the Groningers and when he got a chance to say something I was all but yelling "Pak em" at my screen. If there was a time for righteous anger and fury in Dutch politics it was then, but instead we got a sordid little tale about how other areas were also disaffected (true, and should definitely be mentioned in an angry rant) which Rutte could then interrupt and object to with some bullshit about populism. That's not how you loving do it. You don't let that shitsack speak, you start ranting at him and shaming the gently caress out of him and his party using the media reports about VVD ministers joking about the situation in Groningen, about them not taking it seriously for over a decade, about his election platform STILL not meaningfully addressing the issue, about them not giving a rats rear end when regular working people in fringe areas are suffering (this is where you bring in the miners from Limburg as well), you use language like "wingewest" to add in a larger historical context (language which the Groningers present did actually use by the way) and you take that little man to task for the very principles (gently caress you, got mine) his party is founded on by using the very real and very concrete example as a cudgel to beat him with until the show ends. The NRC economics correspondent took Rutte to task harder than Marijnissen did...
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Mar 16, 2017 12:48
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Orange Devil posted:I watched Marijnissen (the elder) sitting across from Rutte during Jinek and the Groningers and when he got a chance to say something I was all but yelling "Pak em" at my screen. If there was a time for righteous anger and fury in Dutch politics it was then, but instead we got a sordid little tale about how other areas were also disaffected (true, and should definitely be mentioned in an angry rant) which Rutte could then interrupt and object to with some bullshit about populism. It's all far too careful, far too timid and demure and it really makes no sense to do it that way in this time and place. I don't know much about how the SP works internally and I'm not a member or anything, but maybe it's that party which needs some kind of internal revolution where somebody with balls takes over. Maybe it's because they're afraid of Volkskrant and other PvdA vehicles immediately pouncing on them as "populist" if they do.
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Mar 16, 2017 13:05
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Shibawanko posted:It's all far too careful, far too timid and demure and it really makes no sense to do it that way in this time and place. I don't know much about how the SP works internally and I'm not a member or anything, but maybe it's that party which needs some kind of internal revolution where somebody with balls takes over. Even Klaver did it better at the final debate just asking Buma over and over again why he think its ok that his party programme results in lawyers and bankers gaining 10x more than postal delivery workers, nurses and janitors. You take the disgusting results of these fucks' policies and you beat them with it until someone physically forces you to stop.
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Mar 16, 2017 13:11
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Cas Mudde has a piece in The New York Times about how even though populism might have been "defeated", it come at (too) high price of increased nativism by mainstream: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/opinion/geert-wilders-dutch-election-shows-how-not-to-defeat-populism.html?smid=tw-sharequote:If the Party for Freedom is excluded — and almost all parties have pledged that they will refuse to serve in a coalition with Mr. Wilders — the government will probably consist of five or six medium-size parties that span almost the entire political spectrum. Given that the conservative V.V.D. and the Christian Democratic Appeal are ideologically closer to the Party for Freedom than they are to, for example, the Green Left party with which they will be governing, the government will be rightly perceived as an anti-Wilders coalition. Meanwhile The Guardian has identified the actual big winner of the election: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/15/dutch-elections-greenleft-jesse-klaver?CMP=share_btn_tw quote:The big winner of Wednesday’s election – and now the largest party of the Dutch left for the first time – was GreenLeft, headed by 30-year-old Jesse Klaver, hailed by his enthusiastic supporters as the “Jessiah”.
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Mar 16, 2017 15:43
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9-Volt Assault posted:Also, Rob Oudkerk, former member of PvdA in both parliament and Amsterdam, said the PvdA should consider disbanding itself. God I hope they do. They haven't had a clear message in years and that flailing about with "progressive nationalism" what were they thinking... triangulation is terrible and they deserved to get cut down like this. I doubt anyone can tell me what the PvdA is really good for... "good healthcare, good education" like D66? (as if there's a party who doesn't want that) it's just hollow phrases. They're good for getting a cushy job at RD Shell or KPMG. Those 9 seats they have left could go to some actual leftw parties instead of these corporate stooges. Also Comrade Shibawanko, I'm saddened that you dismiss the PvdD so easily based on whatever Thieme does in her spare time. The attack with regards to that (during the RTL 'debate') seemed like a cheap shot because there was little other ammunition. If you don't know about Ewald Engelen (nr 10) go look him up on YT or read some of his pieces, he's the Dutch version of Mark Blyth and consistently critiques the prevailing ideology which is ruining everything. also: the media narrative about "defeat of populism" is quite infuriating... centre-right won and they did so by shifting further right and adopting Wilders' language... as mentioned even PvdA was somewhat tempted.
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Mar 16, 2017 15:45
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The real winner is of course Wilders. He has moved the discourse so much to the right that what he said 5-10 years ago is what VVD and CDA want to implement now. Its also noticable in what Wilders says, as he has no place left to go but ever more extreme.Nielsen posted:If you don't know about Ewald Engelen (nr 10) go look him up on YT or read some of his pieces, he's the Dutch version of Mark Blyth and consistently critiques the prevailing ideology which is ruining everything. Ewald Engelen is a good dude and i hope he gets enough votes for a seat.
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Mar 16, 2017 15:49
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Nielsen posted:God I hope they do. Yeah like I said it was probably an unfair assessment, but I'm frustrated with ineffectual parties on the left failing to do the obvious. I love animals and would probably support a ban on meat if it were politically feasible but calling yourself "the party for animals" is kind of shooting yourself in the foot. That name probably helped to jumpstart the party because it's so unusual but it will probably never become very big that way.
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Mar 16, 2017 18:32
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Peta is so 2008. It's time for DETA, Dutchmen Eating Tasty Animals.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:00
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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9-Volt Assault posted:Ewald Engelen is a good dude and i hope he gets enough votes for a seat. I just watched the video below and I concur. A good dude he is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Pl9IvH_Cg
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Mar 17, 2017 14:27
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Engelen is always hilarious for his constant denunciations of economics and economists while pretending he really isn't one himself. Also, he's not always a good dude. And to claim that president Trump is'more left-wing than the PvdA' in the fight against neoliberalism is just delusional.
Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 15:41
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Junior G-man posted:I just watched the video below and I concur. A good dude he is. I found it very annoying that he keeps talking about numbers which the graphs directly behind him contradict. The graphs don't contradict his story, mind, it's just the numbers he says are more extreme than the ones his graphs show, which is needlessly undercutting his own argument. Furthermore his way of speaking is oftentimes needlessly complex (compare with Mark Blythe who tells the same story much more directly) and his frequent jabs at "the elite" become very ironic.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:26
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That dude makes me want to punch my monitor. He may or not be right, but amazingly he's worse at giving a university level presentation than chinese phds trying to explain laplace.
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Mar 17, 2017 17:20
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Junior G-man posted:I just watched the video below and I concur. A good dude he is. This is nice but I think everybody by now knows what is happening, there are plenty of online lectures about neoliberalism and how bad it is. Understanding that isn't really the problem I think, even for the average person. We simply feel our wealth decreasing and our futures getting shittier, our jobs more unbearable. The problem is how to create a revolutionary movement to take power and change this in a global, deindustrialised, deunionised context. I'd rather see a good, ruthlessly pragmatic politician than yet another theoretician of Euromarxism.
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Mar 17, 2017 17:48
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Shibawanko posted:This is nice but I think everybody by now knows what is happening, there are plenty of online lectures about neoliberalism and how bad it is. Understanding that isn't really the problem I think, even for the average person. We simply feel our wealth decreasing and our futures getting shittier, our jobs more unbearable. The problem is how to create a revolutionary movement to take power and change this in a global, deindustrialised, deunionised context. I'd rather see a good, ruthlessly pragmatic politician than yet another theoretician of Euromarxism. Oh he's not going to tell you how to fix any of this poo poo, he wants to leave that as a fun exercise for the discussion with the audience /academia so far up its own rear end
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Mar 17, 2017 19:54
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I do appreciate some of his points of course, but to me it all sounds rather obvious. I think that Baudet is at least partly right in that we might need to return to the nation state as a guarantor of the rule of law, the Greek example shows that it's very difficult to resist international capital without breaking out of the international order entirely. You can't really reform it, and if you try you get flight of capital and all sorts of other consequences. Baudet of course doesn't give a gently caress about offshoring or international finance loving over workers and for him it's just about keeping out unruly browns. Let's also not forget that the reason migrant workers were initially brought here was to depress wages as part of the project of globalisation (and remember, the SP was initially against immigration on these grounds). Of course the question to ask there is why immigrants were willing to accept such low wages in the first place, why global inequality is at such a level that questions about the decreasing wealth of the lower and middle classes in the Netherlands feel like the petty concerns of the West's labor aristocracy. But to point that out, in turn, feels like a great argument for the elites to let real wages in the West slide even further while doing nothing about global inequality. Just purely theoretically, because I'm just a guy in a room with a computer, I think the only real solution is for a large syncretic leftist party to get power, mobilising a leftist form of anti-globalism without the racism, and just somehow seize a large amount of capital directly from the people who own it before they can escape. Just straight up buying a Quote 500 and arresting all of those motherfuckers and taking their poo poo, immediately charging retroactive taxation on corporations and ransoming their staff if they don't pay up, that kind of thing. I can see the first part of this maybe happening, a large party which is smart enough to beat the extreme right at its own game which can then form a government, but the latter part seems almost impossible. But I don't see any other ways to really change the way the system works in a single country, except autarky and printing your own money, basically the path the Greeks rejected. Or there may simply not be a real solution and all paths end in poo poo and death.
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Mar 17, 2017 23:06
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it's me, i'll be the great helmsman of the revolution
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Mar 17, 2017 23:18
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How many thinkpieces about the marginalised, garbage pile of history party PvdA should the Volkskrant poo poo out this week? A hundred? A thousand?
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Mar 21, 2017 12:37
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I guess all these former party members making GBS threads on their own party is just too juicy to pass up on.
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Mar 21, 2017 13:06
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Pechtold is trying to invite Klaver to the coalition so if that succeeds we'll have two bad parties and two mediocre ones, not the outcome anybody hoped for but at least it can't be worse that just the VVD and another VVD wearing a PvdA skinsuit.
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Mar 21, 2017 13:51
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Shibawanko posted:How many thinkpieces about the marginalised, garbage pile of history party PvdA should the Volkskrant poo poo out this week? A hundred? A thousand? The NRC ones were hilarious this weekend. It's like they only seem to understand now that what they were doing was contrary to the desires of nearly all their members. A lot of tin-eared horseshit.
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Mar 21, 2017 14:01
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Asehujiko posted:Pechtold is trying to invite Klaver to the coalition so if that succeeds we'll have two bad parties and two mediocre ones, not the outcome anybody hoped for but at least it can't be worse that just the VVD and another VVD wearing a PvdA skinsuit. More than a few people have expressed surprise at me these past few weeks after I told them Dijsselbloem is a PvdA and not a VVD minister. Hey PvdA, this is why you've all but ceased to exist.
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Mar 21, 2017 14:12
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Yesterday night while minding my own business at Albert Heijn I overhear a Moroccan girl in her late teens complaining loudly about the type of moron that would vote for DENK, the way her cousin did. She'd vote D66, like her parents do.
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Mar 21, 2017 14:31
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Fun fact I discovered earlier this evening: The SP is opposed to universal basic income.
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Mar 24, 2017 03:05
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SP is such a mediocre party. They're not as bad as most other parties, but still, they hold some really dumb views like they're still stuck in the 1980's or so.
9-Volt Assault fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 08:55
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