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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Eh, it probably stopped me from making a bad decision. While it's not a great bike out of the box, it's an excellent base to start from and an excellent bike to own if you can only own one. Want a dual sport, supermoto, commuter, or adventure bike? It can be any or all of those things. I am biased but also correct in saying all the variants of Honda's gear driven V4's are the best motors ever. They also were the only ones to get oval pistons working reliably in the NR750. It is a work of engineering art, when Honda did things because they could. 
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May 30, 2020 12:56
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Honda’s have some of the prettiest exhaust systems I’ve ever seen on machines. It’s the first thing I see on the cb650r and it makes me drool.  In new rider chat, I’m being the guy from the OP who is itching for an upgrade from my R3 (36hp/20lb) to a Ninja 650 (67hp/47lb) for longer highway rides and hard bag options for commuting. I’ve been riding a year and 5000 something miles mostly in city and highway traffic. Too big of a jump too early?
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May 30, 2020 15:18
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Rolo posted:Honda’s have some of the prettiest exhaust systems I’ve ever seen on machines. I would say that's fine. I've been on a 125cc since November (and having lessons on 600cc bikes since September), and that's less time than you (by half) and I am not in any danger on the 600cc, so in my probably worthless opinion you should be fine to uprade to a 650cc from your 300cc... and yes, the 650r looks fantastic.
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May 30, 2020 17:02
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So I don’t feel qualified to give any advice on whether it’s safe or not — everything feels safe to a new rider until it isn’t, but I went against the general recommendations of the thread and “upgraded” very early — way sooner than you’re looking to do. I’m not really going to go into rehashing my reasoning, but what I can share is my experience. The power feels manageable (but again, everything feels manageable until it isn’t, as a new rider), but where my 250 never gave me any “oh poo poo” moments, my 650 has shows me that an accidental heavy wrist from a red light does give me some acceleration I’m definitely not used to. I’ve never felt unsafe, but I’ve had many more “oh yeah, more power” realizations than I ever did on a 250. I also don’t know whether this is EFI vs a carb in questionable condition, but the 650 feels much more responsive on the throttle. I have a hard time articulating this, but with the 250 if I was going to pass a car I would downshift, turn, and roll on throttle but the power delivery felt very built up. On the 650 when I shift and roll on throttle it just wants to GO by comparison. None of the “ok I’m applying throttle here comes the power” feeling I had. The increased weight is a blessing a curse. It does feel steadier at highway speeds, but it’s not a magic bullet. A truck blowing past me will still make for an unpleasant correction. It’s also not as flickable as my 250 was. It feels more lumbering and methodical in moving, at least by comparison. Without trying to put words in Slavvy’s mouth, I’ll paraphrase that the heavier and more unforgiving stature of the bike and availability of power would stunt my development. I don’t doubt that he’s absolutely right. If I had been riding my 250 all the time I’ve been on my 650 maybe I’d be more gung-ho to try new things and push my limits more than worrying about having to keep more power in check and wrecking a brand new bike. But I’ve had nothing but an amazing time so far and don’t have any regrets. The 650 hasn’t made me feel unsafe or over my head, but has given me enough gentle reminders that it has the power to do much more than I’m currently capable without immediately putting me in a bad situation. If I could change anything, I would have test ridden other 650-class bikes. I love the Kawi but I jumped right into that because I owned the Ninja 250. I have no idea how other midweight bikes feel.
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May 30, 2020 17:57
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Rolo posted:In new rider chat, I’m being the guy from the OP who is itching for an upgrade from my R3 (36hp/20lb) to a Ninja 650 (67hp/47lb) for longer highway rides and hard bag options for commuting. I’ve been riding a year and 5000 something miles mostly in city and highway traffic. Too big of a jump too early? The Ninja 650 won't be too big a jump, but a ZX-6R will. If you can tolerate the looks, cross-shop the MT-07. I know it's a naked, but it's a great bike. A small fly screen or short windscreen to get the wind blast off of your chest on the highway makes a massive improvement for comfort on long rides, and there are soft luggage options / tail racks that will fit any bike.
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May 30, 2020 20:00
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Martytoof posted:I also don’t know whether this is EFI vs a carb in questionable condition, but the 650 feels much more responsive on the throttle. I have a hard time articulating this, but with the 250 if I was going to pass a car I would downshift, turn, and roll on throttle but the power delivery felt very built up. On the 650 when I shift and roll on throttle it just wants to GO by comparison. None of the “ok I’m applying throttle here comes the power” feeling I had. AFAIK carbureted fueling is directly tied to your throttle position because it works via air pressure differentials while EFI has other considerations. My throttle is a little jumpy at initial roll on, which I had always attributed to the gearing, but it may actually be the fueling (switching from super lean to normal). I think what you’re experiencing is just more torque. Anyway fellow new rider opinion: I don’t really do much riding on the freeway. If I did I may consider a bigger bike. It can do 80mph but is more comfortable at 65, for both me and the bike. I mostly ride on twisty mountain roads where my bike has plenty of power (~28hp), at least for me. The other day I was riding with my friend on a GSXR-750, which is substantially more powerful, but he wasn’t any faster because there’s only so fast you can safely go on roads like those. I mean I guess you can go faster, but probably not a good idea. I definitely have “oh poo poo” moments on my bike, like I came into a ~20mph corner at ~50mph. Having a more powerful bike can make problems like that worse, if you are still developing your vision and braking skills. So I guess I’m saying, I don’t feel the need to upgrade, but I’m not riding in ways that smaller bikes usually fall short. How much do you trust your judgment?
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May 30, 2020 20:20
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Two piece long post incoming. The kawi 650 is a perfectly good example of what I call Just A Motorcycle. They're well built and capable, have two wheels and an engine and do all the things a motorcycle can do, they're a loving magical thrill ride compared to a car or jerking off. The other 650's are all similar spec-wise but have actual character and stand-out features - the SV has a nice v-twin and a chassis like a loyal labrador, the MT is a laser guided diamond scalpel, the cb650 is a four cylinder, albeit a miserable one. The er6 has no distinguishing features. Regardless no, don't get a 650, the jump between 40 and 70hp seems like a huge step when you're standing at the bottom of the staircase but it's just a small ledge in reality, whereas the r3 can simply do things in corners none of the middleweight bikes can ever do regardless of who's riding. A clumsy analogy: 30 more horsepower is like central locking or electric windows, aka a nice luxury that makes life easier. Skinny tyres and low weight is like a manual gearbox - essential if you want to learn to drive properly and stop your friends calling you a pussy. If I had to go on a ride on other people's bikes I'd pick the r3 every time.
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May 30, 2020 20:50
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Marty the sensation you're referring to is a result of the different torque curves. It's not possible to make an engine equally efficient at all rpm so torque output swells until a certain rpm then drops off as the engine revs past is sweet spot. Because power = torque x rpm, and torque is directly correlated to cc, small bikes tend to concentrate their torque toward the top of the rev range to maximize power. From the rider's perspective this feels like a smooth and gradual increase until you hit the redline, and having to change down for a sudden burst of acceleration in order to access the high rpm torque. A 650 has a much 'lazier' engine because the torque is concentrated in the mid-range for maximum ease of use. From the rider's perspective this feels like like a sudden, immediate thrust that tapers off surprisingly quickly, followed by a wheezy extra couple of thousand revs before the redline which may as well be a formality because you've changed up ages ago. Behold:  The important line is the blue one. You can see the Yamaha only really starts coming on song around 6-7000rpm, builds to a peak at ~9500, then gently tapers to the redline. The power curve in that tapering area stays mostly steady because even though tq is dropping, it's dropping slowly enough that increasing rpm makes up the difference. The area between ~9000 and ~11000 is what is sometimes called the 'power band', it's basically where you want to keep the rpm if you want to go fast. The power is concentrated up top to maximize hp:cc, this is a 'peaky' engine.  The 650 on the other hand has an almighty horny bulge starting at 3000rpm, a brief emissions dip around 5000 as usual, then builds to a peak at 7,000 before dropping off a cliff at 9,000. You can see that revving past ~9500 is mechanically possible but basically pointless because torque has dropped below what you get at even 3000 rpm, the power curve dropping off a cliff there is a reflection of that; the increasing rpm can't make up for the drastic loss of tq. The power is spread out in the middle so it's easily accessible regardless of gear and rpm. This is a punchy, mid-range engine. And because no discussion of torque curves is complete without these, here is a Harley:  A wall of torque starting basically from idle, collapsing into an inefficient wheeze at 5,000rpm. The engine feels perfectly linear and you get the same urge for a given throttle percentage at basically every rpm, this is what's colloquially called a torque monster or tractor depending on your view. Bonus big two stroke:  Two fifths of gently caress all until 7000, then a tyre-melting, chassis pretzeling, rear end-puckering sudden rush. This is what's known as putting hairs on your chest. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 21:20 on May 30, 2020 |
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May 30, 2020 21:12
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I will add an electric motor torque curve for comparison's sake even flatter and more linear than the Harley, with maximum torque literally at zero RPM (the measurement just starts at 1350). It feels like an aircraft carrier catapult Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 21:25 on May 30, 2020 |
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May 30, 2020 21:23
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Slavvy posted:Two piece long post incoming. Plus it is paid for. And also gorgeous.  Thanks for the effort post. I’ll read it several more times throughout the day.
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May 30, 2020 22:23
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Genuine thanks for the long effortpost Slavvy.
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May 30, 2020 22:56
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Yeah these threads are miles beyond anything I get from places like reddit.
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May 30, 2020 23:24
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You are most likely to crash 1. When you’re first starting and then 2. Exactly where you are now. You feel good. You feel confident. You are excellent at riding. You are more likely to crash in months 12-24 than in months 6-12. You can do whatever you want, but you should be aware of the risks you’re taking and why. I would not personally recommend it. Instead, get a dirt bike or go take a class like cornerspin.
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May 31, 2020 03:55
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Rolo posted:Yeah these threads are miles beyond anything I get from places like reddit. /r/motorcycles is possibly the worst motorcycle "forum" I've ever seen
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May 31, 2020 05:14
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Rolo posted:Plus it is paid for. And also gorgeous. Seconding the thanks for the torque lesson. This is stuff you feel while riding different bikes but it’s nice to have a proper explanation. That R3, gorgeous, I would love to have a good looking bike like that as a second bike. My only ride is a Fireblade and even at almost 25 years old it is too fast for 90% of the riding I do. More power just encourages you to ride fast and I need to constantly remind myself to be careful. I jumped from riding a 125 for commuting to buying a cbr600f on a whim a decade ago and it was the most fun and scary jump you can make in biking so go for it if you feel ready.
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May 31, 2020 06:24
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Eh, it probably stopped me from making a bad decision. The only thing the DR650 needs is suspension improvements, of which there are several different options of varying levels of tech and price available through Procycle. The DR benefits from a minor amount of carb/airbox/exhaust improvements, but not to the crazy level some will recommend. I’ve been riding mine as a supermoto for a while now and it will do 65-85 effortlessly and comfortably on the highway. It’s reasonably quick but not fast, and has a lot of the roadworthiness of a dedicated street bike as a result of its gearing, weight, and a CV carb, but power delivery is typical of a thumper. So all together, it’s confidence inspiring because of an upright, neutral position, soft on suspension (even when improved), heavy, fairly lazy handling, and enough power to feel really fun when you whack the throttle because it goes BRAAAAP and responds immediately but doesn’t power wheelie. It likes to stay upright, and basically every characteristic of it unless you really get crazy with mods is best described as “pretty neutral but a bit better than average.” It’s a poor dirt bike but a great gravel/lovely mixed surface machine. It’s built to Suzuki tolerances which means it takes some boneheadedness to break anything, but even if you do, it’ll probably take a while to notice. Basically it’s everything a dual sport is supposed to be in terms of ergos, handling, maintenance intervals and longevity, with an engine that’s big enough to be useful at highway speeds. Maybe someone else can put into better words why it handles street riding better than it should.
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Jun 6, 2020 05:14
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Because everyone thinks they're gonna be railing perfectly flat corners on a scorching summer day and they vastly overestimate how sporty something needs to be to get around a corner loving quick, but the real world tends to reward soggy forgiving bikes more than nervous stiff bikes. DR is slow, so it's operating window is much narrower than a bike that can go twice as fast, and just that narrowing of the window alone makes it much easier to build a decent compromise that grips and turns well despite limited means in the tire and suspension departments. Floppy soggy tall steel chassis = grip at the expense of stability. The bike has gently caress all power, it's never gonna go faster than 100mph or so, so who cares about stability, just go all-in on grip. This is in a nutshell why motards can seem faster than sportbikes despite being technologically crude: they operate in a much narrower window and they are the kings of that window at the expense of basically everything else.
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Jun 6, 2020 06:36
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Six hours on the Ninja 650 today. Mixed bag. The Good: Ride itself was amazing in and of itself. Did a big loop from Hamilton through Port Colborne, over to (Canadian side of) Buffalo, around Niagara and Niagara on the Lake before taking side roads home from Grimsby. The Bad: I’m sore as poo poo. Still continually fighting myself putting weight on my arms. The stock 650 seat is some kind of torture device after about two hours. The more tired I got the more conservatively I reverted to riding. An hour out of home I found I was taking turns really slowly and .. probably over-deliberately .. which was disappointing since I’d been working on keeping my speed up during corners. Misheard my GPS and took a really annoying steep descent while already tired which immediately brought back memories of the same kind of lovely slow, angled, dark twisty road where I lowsided my 250. Felt a bit of panic as I tried to adjust and not make the same mistakes I did then. Made it through with no issues, but the driver behind me probably thought I was out of it. But again, not to gloss over the good, which was that it was actually an amazing ride for like 5.5/6 hours  This was the same ride that I did last year and almost broke down in tears from being buffeted around by the wind on my way home. Definitely felt the wind across open plains again, but I’m guessing the bigger bike helped with some of that, and just being mentally ready for it was also a huge part. E: I also passed over three bridges with storm grating surface and each time I could swear my front tire felt like it was wobbling, trying to find grip. Not sure if that was in my head or whether the contact surface on bridge grating really is just lovely. No harm done. some kinda jackal fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 7, 2020 |
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Jun 7, 2020 21:49
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What you feel through the front as resistance to turning is the trail force, if the wheel goes super duper light it means the trail force has diminished to near-nothing, meaning the contract patch has gotten smaller or the friction level at the contact patch has dropped drastically. You can actually feel the difference between wet and dry grip riding perfectly upright just from the feedback difference alone.
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Jun 8, 2020 02:03
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Martytoof posted:
This is normal. Just stay loose and keep your eyes down the road with no sudden inputs.
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Jun 8, 2020 03:52
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Yeah, remember that a motorcycle is designed with positive dynamic stability. If you let go of the bars at speed, the vehicle will tend to pull itself upright and stabilize in a straight line. Don't try to fight the bars, let them wobble in your hands a bit, and just keep looking down the road and everything will work totally fine.
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Jun 8, 2020 05:49
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This is doubly true with gravel/loose/soft surface riding. You point it in the general direction and let it float, while arresting too big movements, and limiting too big inputs so the front does not turn into a rudder.
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Jun 8, 2020 12:56
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Let me pose a non-hypothetical question, by which I mean -- when I dumped my 250 I was on a road which was gravely, but was also winding around blind corners. I was approaching a big blind bend in the road at super low speeds and applied the front brake as I turned (which I gather was the no-no), but when you combine something like a road that you're taking at 10km/h, almost walking speed, gravel, and sharp-ish turns, how do you even begin go approach that without dumping, short of "just be smart enough not to be there in the first place"? The road I found myself on, no thanks to my unclear GPS directions, yesterday was very similar though not nearly as gravely as the quasi-forest road I was on when I did my 250 in. I managed to slow down to a (probably over-conservative) crawl so I wasn't braking taking super tight corners, but was generally very uneasy because the ... trauma? .. of the past wipeout. It now occurs to me that the braking while turning may have only been one factor in what put me under my bike, and I kind of want to talk the situation through. e: Oh hey this is the EXACT spot I dumped the 250 in: https://goo.gl/maps/6vm5wYuJvZFWQ7rFA So in hindsight it was CLEARLY something I should have recognized as too gravely for my skill level, but I'm going to put that aside for now.
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Jun 8, 2020 13:09
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Have you noticed the way that a supermoto or dirt bike turns differently in loose terrain against how sports and road bikes turn on road surfaces? Road bikes lean and use the smaller radius of the sides of the tyre to turn, as opposed to the actual direction of drive changing to a new direction. One of the reasons that dualsports and supermotos make such good beginner bikes is that you can learn to turn or recover in low friction environments by being much more upright and allowing the back wheel to slide. That's why a big thumper with skinny shinko 705s is actually fun to ride on slick roads. When I'm riding in the wet I'm a lot more upright and willing to let the back end go where it wants, as well as being a lot more progressive with braking and acceleration.
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Jun 8, 2020 14:00
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One of my goals for this year, post-COVID is to get into the dirt. I think an environment where I'm not (as) concerned about dumping the bike will help me push my comfort and feel out the edge of what is possible.
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Jun 8, 2020 14:16
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What’s the proven method if caught in a speed wobble on the highway? Reddit tells me to put weight on the front, to let go of the bars, to rip the throttle and take weight off the front, to take off your helmet and jump off, and everything else you can think of. Reddit really is motorcycle rider poison if you go there for more than pictures of motorcycles.
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Jun 8, 2020 14:23
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gas it
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Jun 8, 2020 15:32
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lean forward to put weight on the front. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3OQTU-kE2s this is vintage as hell but a super interesting watch.
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Jun 8, 2020 18:12
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I disagree, I think unloading the front is the way to go. Leaning forward just puts more energy into the system and can potentially make the oscillation worse. Unloading the front by sitting as far back as you can (or letting er rip on a powerful bike) reduces the pressure on the fork while also increasing the trail effect. Source: my Sherpa would shake like mad continuously above 120kmh and you solved it by sitting as far back as possible; since then I've replicated the situation on a bunch of different skinny enduro bikes. Anything remotely modern and sporty will just calm itself down after a second if you stay loose and don't do anything dumb.
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Jun 8, 2020 19:06
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It depends somewhat on the source of the shake I think. I had a cupped front tire and when I took a few days camping trip with a load on the back rack and pillion, it would start wobbling while descending at speed. Never happened with the bike unloaded, or ascending or on flat ground, all things that would result in a more even distribution of weight to the front end.
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Jun 8, 2020 19:17
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Yeah it really depends. The front tyre always wants to shake, the trail effect and later the gyroscopic effect of the wheel fight that shake. Trail is a funny thing because loading the front tire reduces your trail but it increases friction at the contact patch; unloading it increases trail but reduces friction. So it really depends on the relative strengths of the friction and trail forces which would depend on wheel diameter, width, tyre compound, fork geometry and weight. And this is just the front wheel going in a straight line - bike dynamics are loving complicated and hard to understand holistically.
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Jun 8, 2020 19:23
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:It depends somewhat on the source of the shake I think. I had a cupped front tire and when I took a few days camping trip with a load on the back rack and pillion, it would start wobbling while descending at speed. Never happened with the bike unloaded, or ascending or on flat ground, all things that would result in a more even distribution of weight to the front end. "If the bike ain't wobbly it means the bitch fell off!! Born in February! Endorsement in June! #repealhelmetlaws"
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Jun 8, 2020 19:46
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On the 690 enduro it seems like the reduction in trail from going to a 17 inch front wheel is pretty noticeable. My XR650R on 17's feels a lot less twitchy nailing bumps in lovely roads at 80 mph. I wouldn't say it's that much worse than the factory DRZ SM feels in terms of stability but I guess I sort of got used to how neutral and stable the XR feels at speed. Probably worth taking the triples off and flipping the steering stem eccentrics to the 22mm setting as opposed to the factory 24mm.
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Jun 8, 2020 20:50
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Martytoof posted:Let me pose a non-hypothetical question, by which I mean -- when I dumped my 250 I was on a road which was gravely, but was also winding around blind corners. I was approaching a big blind bend in the road at super low speeds and applied the front brake as I turned (which I gather was the no-no), I'm super catious about applying any front brake in turns at all!. I have experiemented a little with trail braking, but it still kinda freaks me out.
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Jun 8, 2020 21:52
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It's good to start thinking about this topic as your tires' traction surplus rather than whether it's dangerous to do one move or another. Your tires have some amount of traction sticking them to the ground. Various maneuvers apply forces to the tires that make them want to slide. When the forces add up to more than your tires' traction, they slide. Sliding is not always bad but it is generally something you want to avoid. You have some level of control over both the amount of traction you have and the forces applied to the tires. Adds traction: new tires, fancy racing tires, warm tires, clean roads. Subtracts traction: old dried out tires, lovely tires, cold tires, leaves, sand, gravel, water, oil. Turning applies a sliding force. Braking applies a sliding force. Putting power down to the rear wheel applies a sliding force. So you can think about it that way. In a perfect situation (racetrack) you can turn and brake hard at the same time because your great tires and clean surface give you a traction surplus. In the real world, you need to consider whether your conditions give you enough traction to brake and turn, or just to do one at a time, and how hard. There's no fixed rule, just continuous awareness of your situation.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:14
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But also: braking makes the front contact patch bigger, accelerating makes it smaller. Trail braking shouldn't be thought of as this crazy thing only racers do, it is a basic aspect of riding skills that everyone should know how to do. Light braking into a turn usually gives you more grip than you would otherwise have because of the added weight, but gravel or other loose stuff throws that out of the window and makes riding through on the throttle the safer option.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:44
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That's next on my list is learning how to trail brake. I basically only ride on the street and don't have corners fast enough to really ever need it, and never learned it. I've started practicing in parking lots, but most aren't big enough to really do much. I also found it's hard to stretch my front fingers out far enough while still consistently applying steady or increasing throttle. This is with an adjustable brake lever even. It's just a lot of muscle memory to retrain I guess. This is a good video demonstrating trail braking on a mountain road, I've been watching a lot of this guy's videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQIGrOIzuhE
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Jun 9, 2020 01:51
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I don't think it's a good idea to be applying both your front brake and be on throttle mid turn if ever.
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Jun 9, 2020 03:08
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Yeah I like motojitsu, although his new (r) thing is a little dorky. He seems like he knows what he is talking about, and I like his sincerity. I don’t think the corner needs to be fast for you to trail brake. I trail brake through almost every corner where I can’t see the other side, unless it’s like super slow and wonky. I feel a lot more comfortable that way.
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Jun 9, 2020 03:16
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GriszledMelkaba posted:I don't think it's a good idea to be applying both your front brake and be on throttle mid turn if ever. There is something to be said for rev-matching as you are braking and downshifting. Certainly you don't want to dump the clutch while braking and turning. That said, if you're riding like that you can probably upgrade out of the newbie thread, and if you're riding like that on the street you need to stop.
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Jun 9, 2020 03:37
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