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COMRADES posted:I mean it's your scenario man you mentioned the hyperinflation and whatnot. So the hyperinflation I was talking about was the citizens of Zimbabwe having an alternative to their worthless and ever depreciating currency. The whole "why not just use USD instead of Bitcoins" is why I chose the USA as the problem in the hypothetical. Just imagine it's like Cuba or Venezula or North Korea or someone that the US doesn't really like so there's going to be transactions people make with upside to them using Bitcoins instead of Dollars. Think of it as an extension of all the drug dealer and money laundering examples that get brought up endlessly. Anyone in a vulnerable / shady position has an incentive to use Bitcoins because no particular country is going to step in and undermine it. That's almost the point.
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Oct 6, 2017 00:22
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David Heinrich posted:The essential issue with this is, as I said, Bitcoin does not have anything that merits valuation. In a sense, all monetary goods are stocks, pieces of paper or electronic numbers which represent a certain amount of stake in a company; this also goes for currency, because you are investing in that country's wealth. There is no institution backing Bitcoin, which makes it inherently worthless by its very nature. You are investing in the stock of a company that does not exist. Yes, and that may have uses! There is no nation state that owns Bitcoin so they won't be interfering in your use of it either. Like, the things you see as a negative I'm holding out as a positive! And just because we disagree doesn't make you right and bitcoins gambling. Hence my posts.
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Oct 6, 2017 00:22
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Also, that doesn't answer the question of why specifically Bitcoin. Even if Fuckistan did adopt a digital cryptocurrency there is 0 guarantee it won't be any of the myriad of others or an entirely new one.Ham Sandwiches posted:Yes, and that may have uses! There is no nation state that owns Bitcoin so they won't be interfering in your use of it either. Like, the things you see as a negative I'm holding out as a positive! And just because we disagree doesn't make you right and bitcoins gambling. Hence my posts. Anyone with sufficient capital to manipulate the price will be interfering, as apparently already happens. And it won't ever be stable if it isn't backed by something stable, like a major government. COMRADES fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Oct 6, 2017 |
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Oct 6, 2017 00:23
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COMRADES posted:Also, that doesn't answer the question of why specifically Bitcoin. Even if Fuckistan did adopt a digital cryptocurrency there is 0 guarantee it won't be any of the myriad of others or an entirely new one. Because every other currency belongs to a country that has a political agenda and an existing economy that uses it. For situations where that's a problem, you now have Bitcoins. Think of it this way: Before: 180 fiat currencies Now: 180 fiat currencies and 1 currency that is a bit different There's now more options and if Bitcoin is useful then its price / adoption should spread quote:Anyone with sufficient capital to manipulate the price will be interfering, as apparently already happens. Hmm that sounds pretty real to me, maybe people should be able to speculate on it a bit if they want to
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Oct 6, 2017 00:25
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Because every other currency belongs to a country that has a political agenda and an existing economy that uses it. For situations where that's a problem, you now have Bitcoins. Right but there are Dogecoins, Litecoins, Cosbycoins, and 100 others I'm not aware of. What differentiates BTC? It is just that it is more established?
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Oct 6, 2017 00:25
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COMRADES posted:Right but there are Dogecoins, Litecoins, Cosbycoins, and 100 others I'm not aware of. Many of those alternative coins have specific uses, right now Bitcoin is considered the main alternative to fiat currency
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Oct 6, 2017 00:26
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The "shady position" thing being worthwhile for Bitcoin is absolutely worthless because of the sheer nature of Bitcoin's transactions. They're not anonymous, at all; they're essentially the polar opposite of anonymous, because you broadcast every transaction into a public ledger. It's also extremely easy for any large scale financial institution or country to just crash on a whim. Bitcoin has survived up until now because nobody in any regulatory commission cares enough to glance at it for more than a few seconds, as the volume of trade is too low. Anyone actually trading in 'shady' goods would be far better off either using cash or simply bartering, if cash isn't an option for whatever reason. It is absolutely not a positive that there is nothing meriting valuation in Bitcoin. It means that you can set an arbitrarily high number and then declare all current commodities to be worth that; essentially, someone purchases .000000001 Bitcoins for a dollar, and now a Bitcoin is worth 100,000,000 dollars. It doesn't matter whether anyone would actually pay that, or if anyone interested has the money; if you have ten Bitcoins, you're a trillionaire within the Bitcoin system.
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Oct 6, 2017 00:30
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bitcoin creepypasta:https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3771705&pagenumber=27&perpage=40#post462711496 posted:Catch Phrase: Sorry
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Oct 6, 2017 00:31
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Here's one hypothetical out of many! Do NOT invest in Zimbabwe. That’s my advice.
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Oct 6, 2017 01:00
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Let’s post our credentials to judge true capitalism value David. Seems very smart finance guy Moridin. Well semi smart it guy and autistic Burt. Systems architect. Dumb Ham: ?
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Oct 6, 2017 01:07
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this is the worst shill job I've ever seen. I'll keep my tulip bulbs thanks
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Oct 6, 2017 01:07
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Ham, how much you in right now? This site is more anon than bitcoins, just spill it. Pump isn’t working.
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Oct 6, 2017 01:13
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How many bitcoins can I buy with a kroner?
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Oct 6, 2017 01:56
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Ham Sandwiches posted:It's so genuinely enjoyable going back through old bitcoin threads and just reading the smug superiority with which people posted. It's great. People are generally careful to not be wrong about stuff or make wishy washy predictions so they don't look totally dumb, but not this time Which, again, if you find me being smugly superior in any posts I will give you 10 bux straight up or a forums upgrade because I'm pretty sure I've been consistent this whole time, but instead you're just acting {all goons} are the same person and just turning me into some sort of goon collective strawman I mean I could be wrong but I don't think I am
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Oct 6, 2017 03:18
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Bitcoin is a risky investment but I advise all goons to invest in bitcoin comedy futures. The laffs can only go up uP UP.
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Oct 6, 2017 03:38
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David Heinrich posted:Do you really want to put your investment knowledge and ability to manipulate financial markets against that of an entire financial institution? i'm a lamprey to the shark
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Oct 6, 2017 03:44
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This is a good meltdown. The other thread didn't lie.
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Oct 6, 2017 03:48
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quote:It's so genuinely enjoyable going back through old bitcoin threads Is it really though?
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Oct 6, 2017 04:00
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I miss the paranormal forum.
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Oct 6, 2017 04:04
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David Heinrich posted:I've gone into this previously, about how it's essentially gambling because of the lack of anything meriting any valuation whatsoever. Bitcoins are basically chips to a non-existent casino. The reason that large financial institutions can do this is myriad: Firstly, they have the money not only to lose, but to individually manipulate the markets to allow a greater outcome for themselves and secondly because they have experienced financial advisors making their decisions. I would not typically advise any individual with no experience in stocks or finance to personally invest in the stock market, either. That said, no, I do not believe it is investment for a large firm to put their money in Bitcoin; it's still gambling, but gambling they can easily afford to do in a market that currently has no regulations(This will not last if any bank seriously investigates the use of Bitcoin, which will likely result in a massive crash because Bitcoin is primarily inferior to Securities, if regulated according to the laws that would likely be used.) My use of the term 'invest' there was primarily because it looked better composition-wise. If you take umbrage with it on word choice alone, I apologize. I gotta say, I accidentally learned first hand about Venezuelan people mining and supposedly trading bitcoins, via a Facebook group. Not expert computer touchers either. Their money is worthless and they have electricity so they put together a mining rig and earn money to live. They send bitcoins to some idiot in Colombia and he gives them USD bills. From what I saw and their questions, they are not smart people, but I thought it was interesting. Some were asking very basic computer questions about batch files and such. One of them was very worried about a bitcoin crash because apparently his mining rig was 60% of his family's income 😱
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Oct 6, 2017 04:14
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Also fun fact, if you had bought bitcoins five years ago and didn't lose them to an exchange running off with its users' bitcoins, or wallet software that instead of a random number used the HTTP 301 error it got from Random.org, or margin calling during a sudden price drop, or wallet-stealing malware embedded in a cryptocurrency whitepaper PDF, or hard drive failure, you'd now have equal balances in a couple different forks of bitcoin! What a good investment!
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Oct 6, 2017 04:19
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Djeser posted:Also fun fact, if you had bought bitcoins five years ago and didn't lose them to an exchange running off with its users' bitcoins, or wallet software that instead of a random number used the HTTP 301 error it got from Random.org, or margin calling during a sudden price drop, or wallet-stealing malware embedded in a cryptocurrency whitepaper PDF, or hard drive failure, you'd now have equal balances in a couple different forks of bitcoin! I didn't know that, thanks.
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Oct 6, 2017 04:29
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I don't recall what Bitcoin Cash has been up to lately but it was the latest big fork and a lot of people were taking their new Bitcoin Cash balances and selling them to buy more Bitcoin.
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Oct 6, 2017 04:40
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Ham is just a terrible saleman who has no idea how to sell buttcoins to people who dont want buttcoins. I assume hes just another person looking for the greater fool.
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Oct 6, 2017 04:42
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I can't wait for the price of bitcoins to plummet again so Ham Sandwiches disappears for months again.
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Oct 6, 2017 04:45
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Because every other currency belongs to a country that has a political agenda and an existing economy that uses it. For situations where that's a problem, you now have Bitcoins. when people speculate on bitcoin they speculate if they are still going to be able to find someone to buy them at a profit or if they have reached the practical end of the pyramid as a currency it is like the zimbabwe dollar that i also cannot buy a loaf of bread with
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Oct 6, 2017 17:32
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gary oldmans diary posted:when people speculate on currencies they speculate if it is going to be strong or weak which is based on the economy of the country backing it You can probably buy soylent with it easier than bread tbh.
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Oct 6, 2017 18:09
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I remember people used to tell me I was an idiot for hording all those Chuck-E-Cheese tokens back in the 90's. Look who's laughing now.
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Oct 6, 2017 18:48
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If bitcoin hodlers see it as currency, aren’t high volume mixers/tumblers/blenders technically money laundering?
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Oct 6, 2017 18:54
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gottabefrank posted:If bitcoin hodlers see it as currency, aren’t high volume mixers/tumblers/blenders technically money laundering? Well technically that's exactly what they are, but it turns out that having a public ledger actually kind of makes it really hard to actually do so. Like when BTC-e, a MTGOX competitor tried to launder all the money stolen from GOX and a bunch of Russian ransomware funds, the feds traced it and arrested the dude who did that. And also that's why BTC-e stopped operating.
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Oct 6, 2017 19:06
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exploded mummy posted:Like when BTC-e, a MTGOX competitor tried to launder all the money stolen from GOX and a bunch of Russian ransomware funds, the feds traced it and arrested the dude who did that. lmao No risk you're risk fake news.
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Oct 6, 2017 19:26
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Many of those alternative coins have specific uses, right now Bitcoin is considered the main alternative to fiat currency actually gold is considered the "main alternative to fiat currency" no alternative coins have any use
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Oct 6, 2017 19:26
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Think of it as an extension of all the drug dealer and money laundering examples that get brought up endlessly. Anyone in a vulnerable / shady position has an incentive to use Bitcoins because no particular country is going to step in and undermine it. That's almost the point. i, too, conduct all my illegal activities on a public immutable ledger on the assumption that nobody will ever think to read it luv2invest in prosecution futures
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Oct 6, 2017 19:32
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evilweasel posted:i, too, conduct all my illegal activities on a public immutable ledger on the assumption that nobody will ever think to read it It's weird how people will fixate on stuff outside of the context it was provided: "Nobody has a reason to use it" "actually, during times of turmoil or whenever people are going against the wishes of the state they live in, there is some reason to consider it" "THATS ILLEGAL ARE YOU ADVOCATING ILLEGAL ACTIVITY" Ledgers are public and you can't conduct transactions with impunity does not mean it has literally 0 advantages as a slightly more circumspect way to do a transaction for individuals or that it takes effort to pierce that anonymity. Are you being dense or do you not understand that?
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Oct 6, 2017 21:33
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Anyone in a vulnerable / shady position has an incentive to use Bitcoins because no particular country is going to step in and undermine it. That's almost the point.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:39
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If I am an African warlord and you show up with a briefcase full if It's Happening! instead of USD or Euro I might riddle you full of holes just sayin
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Oct 6, 2017 21:40
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David Heinrich posted:It's not a pejorative term; this is gambling. When investing in a company, for example, you are backing the productive ability of a company to produce things which will result in profit, thereby increasing the worth of your shares in that company. There is nothing here that is gaining worth, and no production to be had; it is, in a literal sense, completely imaginary money. This is similar to gambling in many ways, most primarily because someone must lose, which is not necessarily true in stocks due to profit produced by companies in exchange for their products. Nothing is being produced by Bitcoin, and no profit can be acquired from it; this is why inherent worth is so important. At some point, to liquidate your Bitcoin to USD, someone else must buy it, and it's impossible for that valuation to be accurate because nothing was used to produce the Bitcoin but a lot of wasted electricity; there are no assets to liquidate to pay out stockholders, no items being produced to increase the valuation of the company that Bitcoin represents. Perhaps you can make money on Bitcoin, but to do so, you would need to sell that Bitcoin to someone else who would now be stuck with it; eventually, nobody will be interested in purchasing the Bitcoin, at which point it becomes a worthless commodity. This is not an investment, it's a grown up(Well, college-aged.)game of loving hot potato. Hi David I'm back to address your post One of the things I find very tedious are semantic arguments. This argument assumes that there's two categories for all investments / financial instruments: "Accepted Investments" "Gambling". That's great. You have chosen to simplify all possible investments in the world into these two categories, have narrowly defined the accepted investments, and turn around and using that definition declare anything else Gambling. Welp, guess that's over. The thing is, I feel that Bitcoins belong to a third category, New Things. Cryptocurrencies are new. Having electronic items of exchange that during an initial period can be mined and then can no longer be printed is now. It's a category of items directly created to address the concerns with fiat currency. When currency went away from the Gold Standard, it went from being backed by a physical good and being in finite supply to being unconstrained in supply and not backed by anything other than faith in the nation state that issued it was a change. It was a change that started 80 years ago and had some serious impact. The fact that everything being based in nation state issued fiat currency is the norm, and it's a well regarded orthodox position. It has amazing arguments backing it up like things being a store of value (I don't want to argue these positions as we're getting out of scope) that I fundamentally disagree with it. It presents the idea that the the financial system is not rigged / being gamed by institutions, while the monetary supply is not being gamed by the nation states that issue it, and that both corporations and nation states are not in constant competition with each other - to destructive ends, such that they will absolutely try to invalidate the 'value' of these things if they can. I don't understand presenting having faith in the government / currency of Venezula as a good, reliable, solid thing and then presenting Bitcoins, a non nation state currency, as gambling. That's reductionist, misleading, and simply word games. Bitcoins are different precisely because no nation can start printing millions of new ones or directly seize the market. And while one can make it far more difficult to trade Bitcoins, they really do pose a threat to the existing financial system. Absolutely nothing of that resembles a state lottery or a casino where one would go to gamble, so the gambling definition clearly doesn't apply. Yet this argument not only uses it, it presents it as the only alternative to investments. Look at IPOs like Twitter, Snap and Blue Apron. How are those legitimate? Yes, I'm being serious. The "value" is inflated bullshit wall street is selling to suckers while the banks doing the underwriting cash out on the IPO itself. As soon as these firms hit the market with the distortions they've created to get the investor / IPO in the first place, they crater. Then the layoffs start. Amazing value! Bitcoin is a weird alternative to the financial system that gave us the liquidity crisis of 2008. It may be uninteresting to you or too risky to you. But this sort of bizarre head in the sand "Anything that Fidelity and Bloomberg don't tell me is smart must be gambling" is really unhelpful and I don't think it should be perpetuated as good advice to people.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:43
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Bonfire Lit posted:A malicious actor with nation-state resources can easily step in and mount a 51% attack. (Actually there's a paper out there showing that you need a lot less than 51% of the hashrate, but I forgot the exact number so let's go with 51.) Why have banks, a malicious actor can physically breach the building and steal all the money! Hell, it's actually happened!
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Oct 6, 2017 21:44
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Look at IPOs like Twitter, Snap and Blue Apron. How are those legitimate? Yes, I'm being serious. The "value" is inflated bullshit wall street is selling to suckers while the banks doing the underwriting cash out on the IPO itself. As soon as these firms hit the market with the distortions they've created to get the investor / IPO in the first place, they crater. Then the layoffs start. Amazing value! Well you did get one thing right. edit: I'm not being sarcastic, those are garbage assets, but that doesn't make Bitcoin a good investment.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:46
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Ham Sandwiches posted:It's weird how people will fixate on stuff outside of the context it was provided: hmm yes, this ledger that tracks every single activity and lets you trace it is really the thing that when im conducting illegal activities i want to use it records everything i do, requires that i give all of my personally identifiable information to an exchange that acts as the fed's self-creating repository of idiot criminals in order to get Real Money, and is so hilariously unstable that my illegal activities can't even rely on it maintaining its value long enough for me to buy something without the price significantly changing evilweasel fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Oct 6, 2017 |
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Oct 6, 2017 21:48
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