[BITCOINS] Yet again, goons are wrong about everything.

The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > [BITCOINS] Yet again, goons are wrong about everything.

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Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

gary oldmans diary posted:

sorry for my succinct, on-point replies that have a hard time taking you seriously when you cant hold on to relevance of whats being discussed between 2 consecutive posts

maybe you'll apologize, but i'll never apologize for my extremely good, supremely on-point missives that labor futilely to find anything coherent in your very bad and not at all good posts

yeah... yeah i got him good

# ¿ Oct 16, 2017 20:31

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# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 23:46

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Blade Runner posted:

What dictionary definition are you basing this off of? I can find literally none that clearly states it needs intent, or includes the word intent in the definition. If you didn't want to argue about dictionary definitions, you shouldn't have brought it up as the main loving sticking point of your argument. I'm not the one that said "Dictionary says this". You made your argument, live with that.

take your pick. if you're running a confidence game or a fraudulent/deceptive scheme, you have intent to deceive for personal gain. this is the plain meaning of the word and i honestly don't understand why you're fighting this so hard

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scam

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/scam

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scam

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/scam

# ¿ Oct 16, 2017 23:16

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

SubG posted:

Similarly, Charles Ponzi wasn't a scammer because international reply coupons weren't created with malicious intent and Ponzi's initial plan was to actually engage in arbitrage.

he was a scammer because he started paying out money that other people had invested to cover up the fact that his arbitrage plan couldn't work and that he couldn't deliver on the promises he made. he knowingly committed acts of deception to prop up his failed scheme. notably, his scam did not make international reply coupons a scam. if someone commits fraud using bitcoins, that doesn't make bitcoin itself a scam.

if satoshi nakamoto intended to defraud people when he developed bitcoins, then bitcoins are a scam.

# ¿ Oct 16, 2017 23:38

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

QuarkJets posted:

But he thinks that he legally owns the bridge. So there's no malicious intent when he sells the bridge to someone else for $5 more than what he paid for it. That means it's not a scam anymore, right?

your argument brings us back to what i was saying originally: if the developer of bitcoin was sincere in producing something he thought would solve problems and have utility, then bitcoin itself is not a scam. bridges are not scams just because a scammer uses the promise of bridge ownership to defraud people. international reply coupons are not scams because ponzi defrauded people after his arbitrage scheme failed.

so far i haven't seen any of you present a good argument for why bitcoin should be considered a scam.

# ¿ Oct 16, 2017 23:49

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

QuarkJets posted:

Bitcoins are a scam because someone could knowingly or unknowingly resell a promise of bitcoins being used to handle worldwide transaction volume instantly and without fees.

so are multivitamins a scam if i sell them telling people they'll make their dicks grow five inches overnight? it's not the thing being sold that's the scam, it's the intent to deceive for personal gain.

quote:

These are fake promises that are repeated by bitcoin's believers. The technology doesn't support these promises.

i mean yeah if you erect a straw man of bitcoin believers then you're 100% right, that's what they all say. i have no doubt you can find plenty of examples of people claiming this, but if you just google these questions ("how many transactions can bitcoin handle" and "what are the fees for bitcoin transactions") then you'll find the correct answers

if i go to someone who knows nothing about bitcoin and tell them lies about how great bitcoin is to get them to buy some from me, i am scamming them. that does not mean that bitcoins themselves are a scam. it's analogous to selling multivitamins by misrepresenting what they will do

# ¿ Oct 16, 2017 23:56

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

SubG posted:

Charles Ponzi did not intend to defraud people when he started his scheme, therefore Ponzi schemes are not scams. If someone commits fraud using a Ponzi sceme, that doesn't make Ponzi schemes themselves a scam.

he didn't intend to defraud people because he (apparently) believed that his arbitrage plan would work. it actually could have worked on a small scale, but there weren't enough IRCs in circulation for him to fulfill his promises. it became a scam once he decided to fraudulently use new money to pay people who wanted to take the profits they were promised. but again, the scam is his use of other people's money to prop up his failure. arbitrage isn't a scam and IRCs are not a scam just because they became involved in fraud

# ¿ Oct 17, 2017 00:06

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

QuarkJets posted:

It makes "multivitamins as a dick growth pill" a scam, it does not make "multivitamins as probably a negligibly beneficial dietary supplement" a scam

Just like how I could sell you bitcoins as "the currency of tomorrow" and that would be a scam, but if I sold you bitcoins and said "hey this is an extremely volatile asset that you can try to sell to someone else for profit", then that would not be a scam

See the difference between these 4 cases? In 2 of them, I told the truth about the product. That's what matters. Just as the bridge-selling scam does not inherently make all bridge sales scams, come on man that's common sense.

i'm in complete agreement with you, this is what i've been trying to say. bitcoins themselves are not a scam. i'm not denying that they can be used in a scam

# ¿ Oct 17, 2017 00:09

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

QuarkJets posted:

but your claim was that it couldn't possibly ever become a scam because his original intention wasn't to scam people

there's a very big difference between "become a scam" and "be used in a scam"

international reply coupons didn't "become a scam" when ponzi defrauded his clients in a failed IRC arbitrage scheme

bitcoin doesn't "become a scam" when people lie to get others to buy them

the deceit for personal gain is the scam

which brings me back to my point: did satoshi nakamoto intend to develop bitcoin so he could personally gain from deceit? i don't think he did

quote:

That's why you started copy-pasting from freedictionary.com, right? Because you said that original intent is all that matters, but Madoff's original intent wasn't to scam people, right?

i did that because whatshisname insisted that i post definitions

does madoff's scam make all hedge funds and equities a scam? of course not. it was a scam because he decided to deceive people into believing that he was able to give them greater returns, and he covered it up by paying out returns with new money

# ¿ Oct 17, 2017 00:34

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

SubG posted:

But Charles Ponzi did not intend to defraud people when he started his scheme. He had no malicious intent in designing his scheme. Therefore Ponzi schemes aren't scams.

If this somehow or other isn't true, then that would suggest that whatever the gently caress Nakamoto intended when he created bitcoin is similarly less relevant to evaluating whether or not bitcoins are a scam than, say, the comical fraud currently going on with bitfinex and tether, the billions of dollars of transactions on Chinese exchanges that evaporated more or less literally overnight, the Willy bot on mtgox, and so on.

But Jesus gently caress there's no way that the way something actually works could be more relevant to evaluating whether or not it's a scam than trying to figure out what was truly in the heart of some cryptonerd in 2009 that bailed on the project years ago.

lol you're still trying to argue that bitcoins are a scam because some people scam people with bitcoins, which is exactly analogous to arguing that international reply coupons are a scam because ponzi used IRCs to scam people. this isn't what you're trying to argue, but it's the only thing you've effectively argued. and it's wrong

neither bitcoin nor IRCs are scams

# ¿ Oct 17, 2017 00:36

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

SubG posted:

No, you're arguing that bitcoins aren't a scam because of your presumption of Nakamoto's good intentions. So since we know that Charles Ponzi started out with pure, or at least legal, intentions we therefore can conclude that Ponzi schemes aren't scams. I don't know why you're making this so hard. It's almost as if you don't actually believe that the distant original intentions are relevant, but that would just be silly.

are you saying that you believe that nakamoto is actively defrauding people now? because if you aren't then your analogy fails

to repeat myself, ponzi's scheme became a scam once he decided to defraud people by using new money to pay out returns he couldn't deliver. it didn't begin as a scam, it became one later once he decided to commit fraud. the scam was this specific fraud he perpetuated. international reply coupons themselves did not magically become scams because ponzi used them in a scam

i'm making this hard because your analogy fails, you aren't actually describing analogous circumstances (unless you actually think nakamoto is intentionally defrauding people now, which i don't believe)

# ¿ Oct 17, 2017 01:07

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Minimalist Program posted:

Now I've lost like 15 dollars. Gonna be fun to see what happens once the US market opens.

that sucks dude. i was sitting in cash until this morning, now up 3%. bought into ethereum and litecoin after the volume climax signaled the bottom with the 4h RSI being oversold. hoping for an extended bounce to last through the rest of the day at least, but have stop loss orders to break even if i'm wrong

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 16:48

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Paladinus posted:

Imagine typing all those words like they have meaning, lol.

well they do and i sold at 4.64% profit after the 5 min RSI got heavily overbought, will reload lower

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 17:08

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Burt Sexual posted:

Remember when that dude bought a pizza for like 20 bitcoins?!

it was 10,000 bitcoins :monocle:

over $50 million today

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 17:14

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Minimalist Program posted:

This sure seems like a dumb idea to put your 401k in

yes absolutely. i wouldn't recommend that anyone put in more than they can afford to lose

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 17:18

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

COMRADES posted:

Tbf this is pretty much all day trading and not just BTC stuff.

very true, though crypto trading has a much higher degree of risk from the exchanges (less regulation, security, etc), so i'd say it's riskier overall

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 17:37

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Who What Now posted:

If you want to gamble money away just go to a casino. At least they occasionally comp you a hotel room.

i don't think i'd be consistently profitable at a casino

Uranium 235 fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Oct 18, 2017

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 18:06

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

gary oldmans diary posted:

let me recall the last time i was in a casino and a casino employee grabbed my wallet from my pocket to take all the money i had brought with me and apologized saying they were hacked

yes we've all agreed that crypto exchanges are risky

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 19:00

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Who What Now posted:

So it's exactly like crypto coins, we agree.

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 19:11

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Raldikuk posted:

A stop loss order doesn't guarantee that you will break even as they execute at market price which could have toppled well below the price you set by the time your stop loss executes.

yes and if i was seriously concerned i'd set a stop limit but i'm not concerned about it on this trade. anyhow i already took profit and am in the process of reloading at lower prices. i expect this oversold bounce to continue

it's not a bad idea to always use stop limits but sometimes i don't

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 19:14

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Who What Now posted:

yes

you must be a much better poker player than i am

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 19:36

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

COMRADES posted:

I made okay returns playing like 5-10 tables at once online and only playing the top 10 hands and folding literally everything else but I wanted to claw my eyes out after about 2 days of that.

I also was playing on noob tables though ymmv.

i played during the online poker craze in the mid 00s, i think i doubled the $50 i put in playing limit hold em on dime and quarter tables but it wasn't worth it, i spent way too much time on that. didn't some goons play professionally? i'm pretty sure i got into it because of SA

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 19:45

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Who What Now posted:

I'm almost certainly better at quite a lot of things.

yes i'm sure, we all have our talents. your shitposting is unparalleled

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 19:46

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

gary oldmans diary posted:

in vegas blackjack i am literally up over 1000% per trip and im only there 1 day per trip. according to bitcoin logic how should i act on this information?

how many hands have you played? if a lot then that's awesome and you're probably good. i have a high total number of trades and i've outperformed the market over the interval i've been trading, so i don't think it's just luck.

Uranium 235 fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Oct 18, 2017

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 20:15

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

gary oldmans diary posted:

a lot of hands. playing all day over 5 trips. tell me about how youve gotten 10x returns 5 times out of only 5 days of trading in your lifetime which i doubt

yeah never. that's great, congratulations

quote:

now back to bitcoin logic: should i only stake my life savings or should i consult a loan shark as well?

i won't answer as "bitcoin logic" but as for what i think, no, you should only stake what you can afford to lose. that's my personal philosophy with crypto trading.

edit: but actually if you went up 1000% you could take out your initial bankroll plus a healthy amount of profit and play with the rest. that's basically what i'm doing with crypto--paying myself back to cover my initial principal and risking the rest to make extra income

Uranium 235 fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Oct 18, 2017

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 20:24

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

gary oldmans diary posted:

bitcoin outperformed the market lol outperformed

i was saying that saying i outperformed the crypto market, not that bitcoin outperformed the stock market (it did though)

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 20:25

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

gary oldmans diary posted:

lol bitcoin "outperformed" the market

yep that's the word

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 20:46

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

gary oldmans diary posted:

*investors throw market and individual company research into the trash, invest in high-"performing" scams*

how many times can gary oldmans diary pretend that i'm advocating an abandonment of traditional investment vehicles and strategies just because i put 2% of my net worth into crypto trading and say that it's working out for me

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 20:55

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

gary oldmans diary posted:

whoa dont get excited when people make fun of you for couching a scam with investment terms
like someone saying pyramid schemes are a growth market is something you should be able to laugh at

i'm not excited you're excited

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 21:43

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

My account is up 8.76% since yesterday morning and is in a cash position now.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2017 20:09

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Bitcoin traded for over $6000 this morning for a new all time high.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2017 17:27

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

vortmax posted:

I was talking about Bitfinex, but as long as you're posting how easy it is to get money out of Coinbase,

HerStuddMuffin posted:

Serious question, if it�s notorious that you can�t get money out of bitinfex, why do people buy into it? I thought it was the same wishful thinking that makes them believe that crypogs will surely be useful for something, some day, but there are other exchanges, presumably some of which allow cash withdrawals right now?

It takes 30 minutes to an hour to transfer from Bitfinex to Coinbase, where you can sell bitcoin and wire the cash to your bank account. The whole process can be done in one day. But all exchanges have roughly the same prices. Right now Coinbase/GDAX is higher than Bitfinex. :shrug:

not sure why people say it's hard to get money out of Bitfinex because I've used it to trade altcoins and send money back to GDAX, so I transfer to/from Bitfinex fairly often. never had a problem

I assume it's because Bitfinex no longer allows cash withdrawals, at least not in USD. not sure about euro

Uranium 235 fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Oct 21, 2017

# ¿ Oct 21, 2017 14:00

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# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 23:46

Uranium 235: Oct 12, 2004

Minimalist Program posted:

Man my bitcoin stock is going to go way up Monday when the market opens. Pizza city, here I come baby!!!

maybe, maybe not. there's a fork on october 25th and i think there could be a lot of people selling bitcoin after that (if you hold on that date then you will keep bitcoin plus get the new forked coin). lots of altcoins are cheaper now than they have been in months, so money could flow out of bitcoin into the cheap alts. obviously i cannot predict what will happen, but this is something to be aware of and look out for

# ¿ Oct 21, 2017 14:05

The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > [BITCOINS] Yet again, goons are wrong about everything.

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