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TychoCelchuuu
Jan 2, 2012

This space for Rent.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Your writing is incredibly vague.
Yes, because I think this is all pretty obvious, so it's not like I have to spell it out. I'm happy to do so if you want, though.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

White liberals are "actually bad", "complicit in horrific acts", "doing awful stuff", etc. They have "interests" -but It's unclear what any of this means, despite the vague allusions to abduction and medical experimentation.
So, just to be clear, you're not sure what it would mean for someone to be bad, or complicit in horrific acts, or doing awful stuff? Or you know what those things mean in the abstract, but it's super unclear to you what sort of awful stuff I mean, because just off the top of your head you can't think of any awful stuff that happens to black people in the United States that isn't the KKK's fault or whatever? So for instance you hear "medical experiments" and you draw a blank? You don't think abduction is what happens to victims of mass incarceration, which predominantly falls on people of color - people being taken from their families, never to be seen again?

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The more lucid statement that "the sunken place is marginalization" was copied directly from Peele's twitter, without elaboration. ("I don't know what to say.")
Yes, that is true. I did not elaborate. If you want me to talk about the ways in which marginalization of black people occurs in America, I'd be happy to, but there's a reason I didn't elaborate, which is that it seems like someone who's like "gee, marginalization? Of black people? In the US of A?! Golly gosh I couldn't really imagine what you're talking about!" then we've got some issues that we're not going to be able to sort out for a thread about a horror movie. It's like gently caress dude, read a book or something and come back when you have some basic understanding of how the world works. You could start with The Autobiography of Malcolm X or whatever.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Your other lucid statement, that the relationship between father and son represents a liberal tolerance for hate crime, was copied from me - specifically my example of a hypothetical crappy argument. Without elaboration. ("Again, I'm afraid I'm not super sure what to say here.")
I can't remember why you said it was a crappy argument at the time, but I don't think it's a crappy argument, so maybe we could go through that if you'd like.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

You have made only one specific claim: that white liberals "[view] the black brain as the part that's not good" (???) and, consequently, strive to control blacks like drones. What real-world phenomenon are you referring to here?
When for instance white liberals think that it's sufficient for black people to "get ahead" that they have access to, for instance, school sports, college sports, the NBA and the NFL, etc. Or when white liberals tell black people that they should vote for Bernie Sanders and other well meaning white people because they have the best interests of black people at heart, even if black people don't realize it, because what it really takes is a woke white person to lead us all, and everyone will benefit from having a white leadership, even though black people are too dim to realize this. Or when white liberals object to affirmative action programs and claim that it's not important to have quotas for black people in certain positions because a sufficiently qualified white person can make decisions that affect black people just as good as a black person can.

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Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


Maxwell Lord posted:

So what is the proper and healthy Marxist approach to interior design

Keep rearranging your furniture until you die.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.




Grimey Drawer

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

To perform an ideological critique of it, as people have been doing.

All that does is tell me what NOT to do. I have to put the couch somewhere eventually.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


Maxwell Lord posted:

All that does is tell me what NOT to do. I have to put the couch somewhere eventually.

The couch is always somewhere, it's your relation to it that matters.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

SUPREME
Mechagodzilla


TychoCelchuuu posted:

I think this is all pretty obvious, so it's not like I have to spell it out. ... It's like gently caress dude, read a book or something and come back when you have some basic understanding of how the world works.

You do need to spell it out. To an outside observer - us - you are rambling incoherently.

Remember: I challenged you to explain how the brain transplant conspiracy is a metaphor for stuff that happens, with specificity.

So: how, specifically, is the fact that Rose dated Chris for two months and then used him to show off to her parents, while secretly arranging to sell his talent to an art dealer... how is this a metaphor for mass incarceration? Keep in mind that Rose's big character trait is that she hates cops.

Why is it bad that Bernie Sanders is jewish? What policies does Bernie Sanders have in common with the characters? Keep in mind that none of the characters are politicians.

What do 'woke' liberals have to do with the Tuskegee experiment - which ended three years before the end of the Vietnam war, and at least a decade before the birth of Rose? And again: what does Bernie Sanders have to do with this?

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at Apr 24, 2017 around 00:56

TychoCelchuuu
Jan 2, 2012

This space for Rent.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

So: how, specifically, is the fact that Rose dated Chris for two months and then used him to show off to her parents, while secretly arranging to sell his talent to an art dealer... how is this a metaphor for mass incarceration? Keep in mind that Rose's big character trait is that she hates cops.
I'm not sure if you're being honest here. Rose doesn't hate cops. Basically the last thing she does in the movie is ask a cop for help, before she realizes that Chris's friend is not a cop. In retrospect it's clear that she doesn't hate the first cop they run in to. Rather, she is making a scene so that the police don't realize where Chris has disappeared to.

More broadly I am not sure you are being honest when you ask how a movie about black people being taken from their families and sold for profit by influential people who run things but who also see themselves as not doing anything wrong in the first place is a metaphor for mass incarceration, a system that takes black people from their families and locks them up in for-profit detention centers on the basis of laws passed by influential people who run things but who also see themselves as not doing anything wrong in the first place.

Sometimes I reflect on the fact that whenever you give me poo poo about my reading of the film, you still haven't explained to anyone in this thread what reasons you have for thinking Chris views selling out as worse than what happened to Trayvon Martin. Like, most of the trolling accusations you get are just from people who don't like a reading of a film that's not as bland as, say, my reading here, but sometimes it does seem like you're trying to get a rise out of people. For instance:

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Why is it bad that Bernie Sanders is jewish?
This is a little perplexing. I'm trying to fit it in to what I said but like, I'm really not seeing the relevance?

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

SUPREME
Mechagodzilla


Specificity:

Chris is not taken from his family. His family is dead. No characters are taken from their families in this film.

Unlike the prison-industrial complex, the Armitages' organization is explicitly illegal. You yourself acknowledge that Rose works to deceive police because she is part of an illegal organization.

The Armitages do not strive to incarcerate anyone, beyond the fact that Chris is haphazardly tied to a chair in a rec room for a couple hours. Chris is not accused of any crimes. There is no pretence of justice.

Bernie Sanders is Jewish. In your previous post, you accused him of being a racist and a white supremacist for no clear reason.

In the film, Andre getting attacked by a suburban vigilante is directly equated to Chris having his talent purchased by Root. Chris and Andre share an identical fate.

TychoCelchuuu
Jan 2, 2012

This space for Rent.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Chris is not taken from his family. His family is dead. No characters are taken from their families in this film.
Grandma and grandpa, though, right? Or is the idea that their families are also dead?

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Unlike the prison-industrial complex, the Armitages' organization is explicitly illegal. You yourself acknowledge that Rose works to deceive police because she is part of an illegal organization.
Yes, it's true that, in the movie, what the Armitages are running is against the law. The movie is not a literal depiction of the prison industrial complex. You may recall that the movie does present the police as complicit in what is going on, to a certain extent, due to a number of overlapping issues: their denigration of working class blacks who occupy jobs lacking in prestige, the fact that Chris's friend was confused about the nature of what was going on and thus couldn't make his case as effectively as he might have, the fact that a bunch of normal white people could be doing anything horrific to black people being beyond the pale for the institutions of society, etc. These all work just fine for the metaphor.

However, it is, in the end, a metaphor, so it's true that as you point out, nobody is literally sent to a for-profit prison for life on a shoplifting charge thanks to three strikes laws or anything like that. But I don't think this impugns my reading.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The Armitages do not strive to incarcerate anyone, beyond the fact that Chris is haphazardly tied to a chair in a rec room for a couple hours. Chris is not accused of any crimes. There is no pretence of justice.
Nobody is literally incarcerated, true. Rather, they are trapped in the sunken place, and they can't get out. They are being kept there against their will. That is a sort of prison, is it not? As for the pretense of justice, there is that bit about how Chris's smoking is what licenses the hypnotism in the first place - if he weren't a smoker there would be no reason to hypnotize him. But you're right that this is an area where the metaphor doesn't line up perfectly. But that's not even a huge deal, because I didn't say this was just about mass incarceration, I said it was about white liberal racism more generally, and that takes many more forms than just mass incarceration. Another form it takes is paternalistic "respect" that is a form of disrespect, like valuing black men for their huge penises or strong muscles or trendy skin color.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Bernie Sanders is Jewish. In your previous post, you accused him of being a racist and a white supremacist for no clear reason.
I know Sanders is Jewish. He is also from New York, six feet tall, a holder of a BA in political science, an opponent of NAFTA, grey haired, etc. I don't really see what any of this has to do with anything.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

In the film, Andre getting attacked by a suburban vigilante is directly equated to Chris having his talent purchased by Root. Chris and Andre share an identical fate.
But Chris equates being sold to any of the bidders with Andre's fate, right? It's not like if he were sold to anyone else he'd be like "well at least this isn't as bad as what happened to Andre" or "gee this is way worse than what happened to Andre." For Chris, it very quickly stops being about his talent, or selling out, or anything. Suddenly he's not an individual anymore, he's just a black person who's fair game to be captured and sold.

It's true that from Root's point of view, Chris's talent is the key feature, not his race, but of course the whole point of Root is that what purports to be individualistic, non-racist treatment can in fact be racist not because of some hidden motive (Root is honest about just wanting Chris's eyes, and who cares about race) but because of its systemic results (Chris is just one in a long line of victims who share nothing except skin color, as he realizes most strikingly as he leafs through the photos).

Chris's anxiety, then, is not over selling out. Would that he were afforded such specificity with respect to how the Armitages are treating him! No, his concern just turns into bare survival, not being trapped forever in the sunken place and so on. That kind of destruction is visited upon Andre and the rest of the victims, and is a worry for Chris, not because of any particular talent, but because of race.

Lil Mama Im Sorry
Oct 14, 2012

I'M BACK AND I'M SCARIN' WHITE FOLKS

The movie is really all a metaphor for how stressful it is to stop smoking.

My piercing ideological analysis is that cigs are phallic symbols and they're also white. Therefore

The Skeep
Sep 15, 2007

That Chicken sure loves to drum...sticks


Grimey Drawer

I like how Missy's exploitation of Chris's trauma over his mother's death to hook him with the hypnosis backfires. She knows being trapped in the seat like that holds special meaning to Chris, but they put him in there anyway. I'm unsure of wether it's arrogance or stupidity that they don't take into account that he would do the same thing he did back then, the only thing he can do: scratch the armrests.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

SUPREME
Mechagodzilla


TychoCelchuuu posted:

Grandma and grandpa, though, right? Or is the idea that their families are also dead?

Your claim is that the film is about the fear being taken from your family, when none of the characters are taken from their families in the film. The only family we see onscreen is the Armitage family.

Your reading needs to be based on the text. A strong or good reading incorporates more textual evidence. A weak or bad reading fails to incorporate textual evidence.

Here is an example of a reading that is stronger than yours but still crappy: Chris is strapped to a chair and about to be injected with drugs that will send him underground, so that a blind dude can steal his corneas. I can say that this is death penalty imagery: the chair is a mix of an electric chair and lethal injection and, the 'sunken place' is a grave. Chris has mixed feelings about organ donation; Root tries to reassure him, but Chris fears that his soul will haunt the donated corneas.

You need a stronger argument than this. None of the characters resemble Sanders.

I said come in!
Jun 22, 2004



Saw Get Out last night, really glad I did. I went in with no idea about the premise. This was an incredible film that I loved and had me completely focused from beginning to end.

TychoCelchuuu
Jan 2, 2012

This space for Rent.

I said come in! posted:

Saw Get Out last night, really glad I did. I went in with no idea about the premise. This was an incredible film that I loved and had me completely focused from beginning to end.
With a username like that I'm surprised you liked it.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


Lil Mama Im Sorry posted:

The movie is really all a metaphor for how stressful it is to stop smoking.

Pre' much.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

SUPREME
Mechagodzilla


K. Waste posted:

Pre' much.

It's worth underlining how none of the film's champions know what to make of the stridently anti-smoking mother who promotes therapeutic meditation techniques to help these idle rich with their stress. 'People here are just as crazy as in the city' - and she's here to help everyone find balance.

Mrs. Armitage is the liberal character in the film, with a politically correct disdain for 'big tobacco' and a preoccupation with the politics of jouissance. And she's proof positive that these characters aren't lying.

Chris doesn't snap because it's hard to quit smoking, but because it was easy. He's happier this way.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

Only dead doggos
follow the stream.


It's funny to see SMG suddemly take everything super literally when he meets a reading that he doesn't like that's more involved than "you don't like fun."

"I am suddenly super dense now, please unpack even the simplest and most obvious things you said at a kindergarten level."

LOL

I said come in!
Jun 22, 2004



The most unrealistic part was that the characters having Windows mobile devices.

LORD OF BOOTY
Feb 11, 2015

THEY MAKE SURE YOU AIN'T BOOTY!!!


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

No; my "thing" is writing truthfully and accurately. I am very upfront about this. Everything I have written in this thread is both true and accurate.

If I have written anything inaccurate or false, it should be very easy for you to point it out.

nobody's accusing you of being inaccurate or false. they are accusing you of making statements to which the application of "accuracy" is utterly meaningless (as they are your personal reading of a work, and will differ from most others simply by nature- only a bad work has solely one valid reading) and then acting like a giant rear end about them. a thing that you continue to do when you respond to posts on the subject with a fancy version of "OK THEN SMART GUY POINT OUT HOW I'M WRONG ".

edit: people say this poo poo to and about you instead of putting you on ignore because we want you to be a better poster. there is nothing wrong with the substance of your opinions, it is just the style that could use quite a bit of work.

LORD OF BOOTY fucked around with this message at Apr 26, 2017 around 17:04

A Wizard of Goatse
Dec 14, 2014

What the fuck am I even saying?


LORD OF BOOTY posted:

nobody's accusing you of being inaccurate or false. they are accusing you of making statements to which the application of "accuracy" is utterly meaningless (as they are your personal reading of a work, and will differ from most others simply by nature- only a bad work has solely one valid reading) and then acting like a giant rear end about them. a thing that you continue to do when you respond to posts on the subject with a fancy version of "OK THEN SMART GUY POINT OUT HOW I'M WRONG ".

edit: people say this poo poo to and about you instead of putting you on ignore because we want you to be a better poster. there is nothing wrong with the substance of your opinions, it is just the style that could use quite a bit of work.

retreating to "well that's, just, like, your opinion, man" is pretty weak at the tail end of pages and pages of posters getting all red and nude arguing that his opinions are wrong, and not a valid reading. the whining about his tone has only emerged after the complaints about marxist critical analysis being unfashionable and every facet of the movie actually being purely literal or accidental with no reasonable metaphorical interpretation failed to yield results.

A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at Apr 26, 2017 around 17:32

RBX
Jan 2, 2011



I question if he's even seen the movie, knows anything about Peele, or why this movie resonates with black people. The way he posts he could be a character in the movie.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

SUPREME
Mechagodzilla


RBX posted:

I question if he's even seen the movie, knows anything about Peele, or why this movie resonates with black people. The way he posts he could be a character in the movie.

No character in the film writes as I do. The closest character to me is the female cop, and there still isn't much similarity.

You are running into such basic errors because, like Tycho, you are appealing to a nebulous 'commonsense' where you don't even need to explain things. "The brain transplants represent syphilis because, well... just read a book!" (Which book?) You insist that I do not have access to some common knowledge: if I simply knew as much as you did, about black people, there would be no more critique.

Your post implies that I am a racist because of I am performing an ideological critique of a film embraced by black culture. Besides that you are mixing up race and culture, I am not interested in your culture war. I've already pinpointed that as a conflict within liberalism - and I am not a liberal. That makes me a threat.

A Wizard has already noted how people are reacting to my critique by deploying postmodern relativism, apolitical end-of-history ideology, and appeals to 'immersion'. This is standard liberal stuff and not at all unexpected.

i am the bird
Mar 2, 2005

I SUPPORT ALL THE PREDATORS


The S in SMG stands for shook.

inferis
Dec 30, 2003



There's that thing that teen and 20 somethings do where they think they win arguments because everyone else is just tired of talking to them.

HookedOnChthonics
Dec 5, 2015

Profoundly dull




yeah nvm, gomen nasai

HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at Apr 30, 2017 around 16:57

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007



There's that thing that lovely posters do where their only contribution to a movie thread is commentary about the state of the discussion.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

SUPREME
Mechagodzilla


Sir Kodiak posted:

There's that thing that lovely posters do where their only contribution to a movie thread is commentary about the state of the discussion.

People are talking about the film. It's just in a sneaky, roundabout way.

When Sean10millimetre and Booty take the postmodern route and say there is no truth, only personal preferences, that's supplementing RBX's unelaborated-upon assertion that the film 'resonates with black people'. The point is pretty clear: black people like the film, so critique of the film represents a dangerous intolerance for others' opinions. All this stuff about class is hopelessly obsolete; we just need more multiculturalism.

As Tycho has made abundantly clear, the film's criticism of liberalism (such as it is) is exclusively a self-criticism:

TychoCelchuuu posted:

I'm a 'woke' white liberal just like Rose! ... She's me! I'm the target of this film's criticism!
("I'm a 'woke' white liberal just like Rose! ... She's me! I'm the target of this film's criticism!")

TychoCelchuuu"post="471094658 posted:

I'm effectively a murderer who bids on black people and steals their bodies.
("I'm effectively a murderer who bids on black people and steals their bodies.")

The message is 'we liberals can make liberalism even better' and, in practice, this means a renewed commitment to awareness. Tycho is aware of (as a random example) the Tuskegee experiment, as he has repeatedly stressed, and his hope is that this awareness will lead him to commit fewer acts of microaggression. In the same way, raising awareness of mass incarceration will gradually lead to reform in the prison-industrial complex and make America's privatized prisons function better. The endgoal is simply to make liberalism gradually more inclusive of black cultural identity. Again, the view is that liberalism simply isn't multicultural enough, so this film must be celebrated for raising awareness of black culture.

TychoCelchuuu"post="471094658 posted:

There's a key difference between Chris and the other liberals in the film that make them not interchangeable. Chris, remember, is black.
("There's a key difference between Chris and the other liberals in the film that make them not interchangeable. Chris, remember, is black.")

TychoCelchuuu
Jan 2, 2012

This space for Rent.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

As Tycho has made abundantly clear, the film's criticism of liberalism (such as it is) is exclusively a self-criticism
I think "exclusively" isn't really warranted here. All the talk about the apartment, for instance, has nothing to do with white people except in a roundabout way.

You're also putting tons of words in my mouth about other stuff but I think at this point I've realized it's probably futile to bother responding point by point.

pigdog
Apr 23, 2004

by Smythe


Saw this without knowing anything about the premise and thought it was really creeped out by the whole cringy black guy meeting white inlaws thing. Like, is this a blaxpoitation movie? Is that how the racist, black director sees white people? But then everything started making perfect sense, and the movie actually ended up being brilliant.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


Alternate ending

https://twitter.com/nikuaIe/status/864324865888849920

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


I saw that advertised on On Demand and wondered what the hell they were talking about.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


Is it just me or is that video insanely quiet?

Detective Dog Dick
Oct 21, 2008

Detective Dog Dick

Martman posted:

Is it just me or is that video insanely quiet?

Black voices are regularly silenced.

weekly font
Dec 1, 2004


Everytime I try to fly I fall
Without my wings
I feel so small
Guess I need you baby...



Yes it was a good call to switch the ending from something everyone saw coming.

Matchstick
Jul 10, 2004



Just saw this on itunes. Fantastic movie, all around. Read about half of the posts here, but has there been any discussion about possible elements of sexism/misogyny? From the photo box we can infer that Rose has seduced about 8 men and one woman for transplant. All the old men get young, new bodies, but their wives (save one, the matriarch, who is still the cook) are still left with their decaying bodies. That's not very fair!

Thursday Next
Jan 11, 2004

FUCK THE ISLE OF APPLES. FUCK THEM IN THEIR STUPID ASSES.

Xander B Coolridge posted:

In hindsight this also explains the deer scene and his nightmare about it

My friend pointed out that he saves himself by picking cotton - from the chair .

Hooooly poo poo

This just came out on Amazon so I was able to watch it in bits and pieces between migraine issues today. I'm now in my second viewing. Your spoiler above made my jaw loving drop. I did not notice that. Jesus.

Does anyone have an explanation for the scene where Chris and Rose walk back from the bench late at night? The brother is on the porch, idly picking out a song on some stringed instrument. Peele slows down the film here, so the scene is definitely supposed to be impactful. But I can't figure out why. Is the song something in particular? The actor plays it so badly I can't make out the tune.

Thursday Next fucked around with this message at Jun 13, 2017 around 00:52

Thursday Next
Jan 11, 2004

FUCK THE ISLE OF APPLES. FUCK THEM IN THEIR STUPID ASSES.

Welp, I just watched it twice.

I'm bumping this old thread a second time, because holy balls this is a pretty good movie.

I assumed Rose was in on it from the first scene. I don't generally do the "I knew it all along" bullshit, but it's just so obvious. There's no movie if she's not in on it; we knew from the trailer that it's a hosed-up-family situation. I was very surprised to read how many people didn't see she was in on it till later in the movie, or continued to make excuses for her ("maybe she was hypnotized too"). Then again, I am a straight woman, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it? Like, I'm less likely to give the white, pretty-face 80-lb waif the benefit of the doubt.

We never see what happened to the other black people who were taken, which is unfortunate. Only three are in the film (groundskeeper, maid, and sex slave). Yet we see that Rose and her brother have been at this for years, and have taken at least 10-12 folks. It would have been nice to have a throwaway line or something about what happened to the others. It feels like a miss.

The choice of actor for the brother character was perfect. He's a hosed-up looking boy who can do creepy just by showing up.

I didn't like the TV-as-explanation bit, and I wished they'd let him find the reveal on his own. I think it would have added to the movie to have him wake up and see maybe some news articles on the walls, or something, about Grandpa's experiments. Having him whack the brother in the skull multiple times before he knows the whole plot would have been a great slower build IMO; there'd be more tension as he would have potentially murdered someone without knowing if it was warranted yet.

Like, yes, okay, this family drugged you (hypnotized you?) and tied you to a chair in the basement. Clearly something terrible is going on. But is murder warranted at that time? Did he just make a very, very bad mistake? Did he resort to violence too soon, something the Black men are often accused of?

The cotton coming out of the chair was loving inspired.

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LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

I neglected the thread I made for the show a bit too long, and have PMed our mod to see if I can get it re-opened, but in the meantime, I may as well post my latest work here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu0IHojJo-0

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