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Is this some kind of joke post?
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Mar 7, 2017 02:24
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Main Paineframe posted:Is this some kind of joke post? Sirota's conclusion I question, his data I don't. The Democratic Party is not popular. What steps can be taken to correct this? Shouting about Russia does not, at the very least, appear to be helping.
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Mar 7, 2017 02:31
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Crowsbeak posted:I disagree to an extent. Trump is a logical conclusion to the GOP on it's current course for the past generation. We must work to not only undermine Trump but to anhilate that party. The problem with this is that Trump is in many ways also the logical conclusion to the failures of the Democratic party. Even if we manage to conjure up another 2008 style blowout in 2020 it would only be a matter of time before we end up with Trump 2.0. We need to start thinking longer term than just beating Trump. That means not only fixing the Democrats but actually doing something about more systemic issues like money in politics, gerrymandering, union rights, voter suppression, etc. Anything less and we're just dooming ourselves to repeat this cycle forever until the whole mess becomes unstable and collapses.
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Mar 7, 2017 04:27
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Maybe they should stop bending over backward to their corporate overlords, just a thought.
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Mar 7, 2017 04:37
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readingatwork posted:Anything less and we're just dooming ourselves to repeat this cycle forever until the whole mess becomes unstable and collapses. Depending on whether you think there is other intelligent life in the universe (and even if you don't) it's hard to imagine higher stakes. That's part of why "we should let Trump implode then reap the rewards" as a strategy is so god-damned grating.
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Mar 7, 2017 06:49
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Hey, what about an anti-Regan strategy? or how about anti-Moon Landing? Oh those things have happened already? I should just accept it and move on? But what happens if I built my whole identity and social circle around Trump being the anti-christ? What am I supposed to do now? edit: oh hey, here is some realtalk. The US economy is kicking loving rear end since Trump got elected. It inspires confidence. Well, it doesn't inspire confidence in some people.. but unsurprisingly those people are also not ones that really effect the S&P 500. I am changing my International Equities part of my portfolio to have a specific US Economy section, because I believe it's not going to stop. I am directly investing in the US because Trump is your President. Many other companies and individuals are doing the same. When you're old enough you'll understand what this means (its important). Tony Montana fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 06:53
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I mean seriously, it's people like this idiot that form the bricks and mortar from which we're supposed to build an enduring civilization that can cross interstellar distances? Or for that matter, even interplanetary distances? You see how hard the job is? A strategy that sounds an awful lot like "keep to the status quo as much as possible, hope things work out" just isn't going to cut it.
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Mar 7, 2017 07:02
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readingatwork posted:The problem with this is that Trump is in many ways also the logical conclusion to the failures of the Democratic party. Even if we manage to conjure up another 2008 style blowout in 2020 it would only be a matter of time before we end up with Trump 2.0. Oh I agree. We need to transform the democrats then transform the country so its safe from Ancaps. We also need a new vision. Frankly as much as I think he was a useless self aggrandizing man whore we need to go back to Kennedy and the New Frontier. We can offer Americans a new future where we all will have the resources of space at all of ours disposal. (except for ancaps, nazis and wahabist who will at the point of a gun be mining resources in Alaska).
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Mar 7, 2017 07:19
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Tony Montana posted:edit: oh hey, here is some realtalk. The US economy is kicking loving rear end since Trump got elected. It inspires confidence. Well, it doesn't inspire confidence in some people.. but unsurprisingly those people are also not ones that really effect the S&P 500. I am changing my International Equities part of my portfolio to have a specific US Economy section, because I believe it's not going to stop. I am directly investing in the US because Trump is your President. Many other companies and individuals are doing the same. When you're old enough you'll understand what this means (its important).
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Mar 7, 2017 07:36
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bitcoin is another thing the adults dont really talk about
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Mar 7, 2017 07:38
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please buy up all the bitcoin and/or US equities you can possibly afford, just go whole hog on that poo poo I hear housing prices are going up too! Better get in while the market is hot!
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Mar 7, 2017 07:40
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Tony Montana posted:I am changing my International Equities part of my portfolio to have a specific US Economy section, because I believe it's not going to stop. permanently high plateau
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Mar 7, 2017 07:40
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JeffersonClay posted:Trump = Wall street greed and corruption JC, does it register for you on any level that this exact same list of complaints was applied successfully to Hillary Clinton by her opposition during the election? Putting aside the validity of those claims, would you accept that the majority of the electorate believed them? If so, how does the DNC have the moral authority to apply them to Trump? Isn't it just an obvious sort of "I'm rubber, you're glue" strategy? I would genuinely like the Democrats to be able to say these things, but that requires a supposition that they're a viable alternative to the problems of neoliberal capitalism, and that's exactly where the whole thing falls apart.
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Mar 7, 2017 07:52
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btw here's some realtalk: the stock market is doing well because we'll probably have some fiscal policy for the first time in eight loving years or whatever, and that does inspire confidence as does the tax holiday which is inevitably going to happen pretty much anyone with sense expected this to happen as soon as it was clear Trump would win the Presidency, regardless of political affiliation I mean the tax holiday stuff is corruption at its finest but at least money is moving back to the US but if you think the fundamentals of the American economy are somehow improving in leaps and bounds since the trumpenreich started then you are a loving idiot and I hope you lose your money, because while I may be a leftist I still think certain types of dumb people deserve to be destitute, which is to say I think wannabe bougie retards like yourself should be left to scratch a living off rocks and sand while the rest of colonize space and live forever
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Mar 7, 2017 07:58
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I also have to say the American people, while lots are mewling like retards, lots are also having discussions of real worth. I think America is a great country simply because someone like Trump could be and is President, you're all confused as poo poo and talking it out and it's sorta working. It's painful and still rocky, but America churns, the show goes on. To be able to roll with that kind of turmoil (because probably the majority of citizens are so well educated and have productive lives and many other factors) and not have to declare martial law is impressive. Kilroy posted:btw here's some realtalk: the stock market is doing well because we'll probably have some fiscal policy for the first time in eight loving years or whatever, and that does inspire confidence as does the tax holiday which is inevitably going to happen whoa. Jesus man. You don't hope I lose my money because my money is in America. If I lose my money it's because you hosed up and are broke. You don't want that. It's not tax breaks, its stuff like pipelines and meeting lots of CEOs and making friends and generally being known as the business guy so that'll drive your administration. Trump was given 200 million by his old man in the mid 80s which he now reports has grown to 4.5 billion dollars. I dunno how tight those numbers are, but it's the least flattering ones I could find. That's still a successful business track record right there, in the language that matters.. something Hilary can't show. So yeah, you'll see, we're all going to make a lot of money. Heard that before? Tony Montana fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 08:02
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Tony Montana posted:So yeah, you'll see, we're all going to make a lot of money. Heard that before?
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Mar 7, 2017 08:10
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Kilroy posted:I seem to remember hearing it an awful lot in the later years of the Bush admin, yeah. People were making a lot of money under Reagan, up to Savings and Loan.
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Mar 7, 2017 13:38
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Kilroy posted:I mean seriously, it's people like this idiot that form the bricks and mortar from which we're supposed to build an enduring civilization that can cross interstellar distances? Or for that matter, even interplanetary distances? You're part of the problem.
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Mar 7, 2017 15:46
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Tony Montana posted:edit: oh hey, here is some realtalk. The US economy is kicking loving rear end since Trump got elected. It inspires confidence. Well, it doesn't inspire confidence in some people.. but unsurprisingly those people are also not ones that really effect the S&P 500. I am changing my International Equities part of my portfolio to have a specific US Economy section, because I believe it's not going to stop. I am directly investing in the US because Trump is your President. Many other companies and individuals are doing the same. When you're old enough you'll understand what this means (its important). I say this with all sincerity: I hope you lose all of your money and have to rely on welfare. Rent-A-Cop posted:gently caress you and gently caress space. I want a decent job, and maybe once that is accomplished, for cops to stop murdering people. Why do you view these goals as being opposed to Star Trek future? You know that space exploration would create a shitload of jobs if we really ramped it up.
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Mar 7, 2017 15:48
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Small aside I think rallying around space as a patriotic job creater is a potentially good strategy. Possibly not but I'd like to see someone try it. In general Trump should be hammered for the job implications of every single budget cut he makes since every budget cut has an immediate implication for jobs. How many people would an EPA slash lay off? Democrats should have that answer on the ready. And in general democrats need to rally around supporting everything trump is cutting. The EPA for example does real things that impact everyone in this country. List them. Show pictures of smog in china (or even Europe). Etc. When things are on the chopping block its a great opportunity to defend them, as we've seen with rising support for Obamacare. Dems need to be quick and ready to do it and it's desperately needed - government institutions have been dragged through the mud from the right for years.
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Mar 7, 2017 16:58
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Rent-A-Cop posted:gently caress you and gently caress space. I want a decent job, and maybe once that is accomplished, for cops to stop murdering people. I couldn't care less about whatever Silicon Valley United Federation of Billionaire Space Oligarchs fantasy you have and neither could anyone else outside of a Trek convention.
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Mar 7, 2017 18:11
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TTrump and Bannon are a literal existential threat to humanity so long as they aim to roll back Obama's efforts at fighting climate change. The show will most certainly not "go on" if that happens and it'll be because of reactionary idiots like you, TM.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:13
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Ze Pollack posted:Sirota's conclusion I question, his data I don't. How do you draw that conclusion from the data? Even at its lowest point in that graph, the Dems' favorability rating is still higher than the Republicans' current favorability rating. As for the data, I'd question that as well, because it seems to be intentionally trimmed of context. It begins in March 2014 - immediately after the end of the big spike in Dem unpopularity that made up much of 2013. It's always suspicious when someone crops a graph to begin or end immediately before/after a big spike in whatever the graph was measuring without a good reason that they're upfront about. The jump in favorability rating during the election season looks minor on his chart, but its actually the highest favorability rating have ever had since his data source began aggregating polls in early 2012. Similarly, the current decline in favorability looks bad on his chart, but move the starting point forward by just a couple of months and you see that it pales in comparison to the Dems' unpopularity at the beginning of 2014.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:31
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Main Paineframe posted:move the starting point forward by just a couple of months and you see that it pales in comparison to the Dems' unpopularity at the beginning of 2014. Yeah, that's uh, still not great, and the fact that the party's image went down after the election is proof that people are unhappy with their handling of the Trumpening.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:34
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Fiction posted:TTrump and Bannon are a literal existential threat to humanity so long as they aim to roll back Obama's efforts at fighting climate change. The show will most certainly not "go on" if that happens and it'll be because of reactionary idiots like you, TM. Anti-global nationalist movements (left or right) are the enemy of humanity. Trump and Bannon are just part of it. Global capitalism supporting global institutions and global agreements is easily the best hope for combating climate change (and maintaining peace) that's on the horizon.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:36
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Kilroy posted:I mean the tax holiday stuff is corruption at its finest but at least money is moving back to the US Another problem with the 'anti-trump strategy'. People say this stuff is terrible and than they nominate/support a person that publicly says the rich are going to pay their share while privately saying to wall street that they're going to do the same thing with a small percentage going to an infrastructure fund. Third Way Democrats are far more dangerous to the country than any republican because they say all the right things publicly while actively sabotaging any chance of it getting done behind the scenes. At least the left is waking up to Trump continuing Obama's legacy of executive orders and failed foreign policy. We wouldn't be seeing the same thing if Hillary won the election. (that said, we're still doomed. 2018, we won't have the right candidates. 2020, the establishment is going to continue marching down the path they want to head down and trump's going to get back most of the johnson/mcmullin defectors while the democrat side will still be depressed as they run NOT TRUMP [aka Hillary/Biden/M. Obama/Cory Booker] instead of somebody that can tap into that populist anger and walk the walk) Fiction posted:TTrump and Bannon are a literal existential threat to humanity so long as they aim to roll back Obama's efforts at fighting climate change. The show will most certainly not "go on" if that happens and it'll be because of reactionary idiots like you, TM. Obama's efforts were meaningless gestures (like most of his presidency) since they did nothing to curb the pollution of fast-developing nations like China and India.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:38
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Fiction posted:Yeah, that's uh, still not great, and the fact that the party's image went down after the election is proof that people are unhappy with their handling of the Trumpening. Or it could mean that the Dems are no longer spending a national ad budget on trying to fight for attention and popularity. Or it could mean that the Dems are currently rudderless and consumed in infighting, with much of their well-known leadership currently relegated to the backrooms or bleachers and a barren bench with few up-and-coming contenders. Or it could mean that, as the party argues over its own future, people are less sure what it stands for or what it will stand for. Anyone who looks at that graph, cherrypicked or not, and says they can pin all the changes on one thing is a liar, a shill, or a delusional idiot.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:58
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Call Me Charlie posted:(that said, we're still doomed. 2018, we won't have the right candidates. 2020, the establishment is going to continue marching down the path they want to head down and trump's going to get back most of the johnson/mcmullin defectors while the democrat side will still be depressed as they run NOT TRUMP [aka Hillary/Biden/M. Obama/Cory Booker] instead of somebody that can tap into that populist anger and walk the walk) Oprah 2020! 
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Mar 7, 2017 20:04
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:JC, does it register for you on any level that this exact same list of complaints was applied successfully to Hillary Clinton by her opposition during the election? There's no evidence that they did. The vast majority of people are able to tell the difference between democrats and republicans on issues like the environment, regulations, the minimum wage and taxes, despite the best efforts of Jill Stein and her ilk. quote:If so, how does the DNC have the moral authority to apply them to Trump? Isn't it just an obvious sort of "I'm rubber, you're glue" strategy? I'm not suggesting the DNC make those Trump=the worst of capitalism arguments, I'm suggesting the left make those arguments. JeffersonClay posted:And if the left can successfully tie trump to the shittiest parts of capitalism, once the democrats have won, Trump becomes a bludgeon to use against moderate democrats. Is Corey Booker too close to wall street or financial institutions? He’s just like trump! Is Joe Manchin willing to poo poo on the environment to benefit some coal company? He’s just like trump! Is Chelsea Clinton pulling the wool over the eyes of the working class? She’s just like trump! Fiction posted:Yeah, that's uh, still not great, and the fact that the party's image went down after the election is proof that people are unhappy with their handling of the Trumpening. Regardless, it's real dumb to look at that graph and say "see, people think all this russia stuff is bullshit!" There's no support for that conclusion.
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Mar 7, 2017 23:53
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JeffersonClay posted:There's no evidence that they did. The vast majority of people are able to tell the difference between democrats and republicans on issues like the environment, regulations, the minimum wage and taxes, despite the best efforts of Jill Stein and her ilk. I can tell the difference between ultramarine and navy while still recognizing they're both blue. The left shouldn't make Trump = "the worst of capitalism" arguments because it suggests that the Obama-era capitalism is an acceptable alternative to Trumpian capitalism.
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Mar 8, 2017 00:25
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asdf32 posted:Anti-global nationalist movements (left or right) are the enemy of humanity. Trump and Bannon are just part of it. Global capitalism supporting global institutions and global agreements is easily the best hope for combating climate change (and maintaining peace) that's on the horizon. Ugh. So who are you to say this? Why do I always dive in and ask a poster to qualify themselves. It's because we're talking about grown-up poo poo and when I read stuff like that I really wonder if I'm trying to explain stuff to a teenager. It's just mindless bullshit. All hold hands and work together and have you seen Star Trek, well in Star Trek humans have grown beyond national borders and they all work together and that's better because I'm Liberal and I have no qualms in telling you what is best because I know what is best. Globalization for many people means off-shoring, or as a previous employer (Hewlett Packard) once told me 'oh we don't call it off-shoring, here at HP we call it best-shoring'. Globalization means there are gently caress all sysadmin jobs left in IT because there is someone willing to work for bowl of rice a day on the other side of the world with an Internet connection, why would we pay you? Globalization means local Universities focusing more on attracting overseas full-fee paying students because that brings more money into the Uni than educating citizens due to the government rebates on education. Globalization means a whole lot of stuff that unless you've worked and had a life as an adult you have no loving idea about. So preaching about how it's the answer to all our problems makes me want to strangle you. This is part of Trump's platform that has gained resonance with so many. Yes, combined approaches to big problems like climate change are required. But touting globalization as some sort of ideal is something straight out of 80s economics, before we'd done it and learned about a whole lot of big loving problems it brings with it.
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Mar 8, 2017 00:35
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Its insanely telling that JC's proposed strategy for the left is to first work hard at putting the centrists back in power.
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Mar 8, 2017 00:38
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The Kingfish posted:I can tell the difference between ultramarine and navy while still recognizing they're both blue. "Obama-era capitalism". Christ.
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Mar 8, 2017 00:40
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The Kingfish posted:Its insanely telling that JC's proposed strategy for the left is to first work hard at putting the centrists back in power. First purge centrists from blue states.
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Mar 8, 2017 00:46
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I do think it's really telling that the first priority is to annihilate the entirety of the existing Democratic Party, and THEN try to do something about Trump, while whining about how nobody's getting anything done. Like, do y'all think you can destroy the American two-party system in a day if only the dread pirate JeffersonClay would cry a little and say you're right about everything or something?
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Mar 8, 2017 00:50
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Tony Montana posted:I also have to say the American people, while lots are mewling like retards, lots are also having discussions of real worth. I work and do pretty well for myself relatively speaking but if you think business people know poo poo, lol, ok. Unfortunately most of the people who manage large sums of money are salesmen who are absolute trash and are subsidized merely by being specialists in lucrative industry. Whatever business people want, do the opposite. They'll whine and moan but cope anyway and everyone else will be better off. If the businessmen fail, that's their problem.
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Mar 8, 2017 01:29
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Panzeh posted:I work and do pretty well for myself relatively speaking but if you think business people know poo poo, lol, ok. What the.. So here you go. Read that. The business people that employ this guy don't know poo poo. They're just salesman and they only reason they make money is because they are specialists! How ridiculous! Bill Gates was and still is a business person. He never got his CS degree from Harvard, so he is a business guy first and a coder second. Marketing was always Microsoft's strong suit. He knows more about basically everything that you ever will.
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Mar 8, 2017 01:47
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Brainiac Five posted:I do think it's really telling that the first priority is to annihilate the entirety of the existing Democratic Party, and THEN try to do something about Trump, while whining about how nobody's getting anything done. Like, do y'all think you can destroy the American two-party system in a day if only the dread pirate JeffersonClay would cry a little and say you're right about everything or something? We're not going to destroy the two party system. We're going to take over one of the two parties wear it around like the alien from MiB. The DNC can't do anything to hinder Trump until 2018 at the absolute earliest anyway.
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Mar 8, 2017 01:49
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Like, we can do both. We can stand up to Trump AND we can purge the centrists. The latter will hopefully speed up the former.
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Mar 8, 2017 01:54
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Tony Montana posted:What the.. They're not really specialists- they work in a specialist industry that makes money hand over fist. They're salesmen in that industry. However, I can tell that they're making a recent stream of pretty bad decisions that indicates to me that they got where they got because they had connections and luck. I am in fact much smarter and more knowledgable than them. If I were in their position I would absolutely make better decisions than them. I don't really care about Bill Gates and I don't think Bill Gates gives a gently caress about me so I don't see what he has to do with this. If the billionaires pass policy to benefit the billionaire constituency, the benefits won't accrue for me.
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Mar 8, 2017 02:10
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