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GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.
Specifically Hugo Chavez

To continue this horrible discussion somewhere that it can't destroy a thread:

Apparently, some people think Chavez was good!

Actually, he was very bad.

You can tell he was bad because his country, which had a huge amount of cash and which he ran much like a dictator, failed to invest much if any of its huge influx of cash, because it was all directed to Chavez and his cronies and spent trying to keep him in power.

You can argue about why he was bad - the US certainly did not help, since they seemed to have only made him more paranoid and given him a convenient external enemy to rally support against.

But as to whether or not he was bad? I think the results are pretty clear. The current state of Venezuela is absolutely his fault, and it is... not good.

GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 17:40 on Mar 6, 2017

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GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Doorknob Slobber posted:

I have no doubt that plenty of people in Venezuela thought Chavez was poo poo, but I think its also poo poo to claim that he was an over all bad person when time after time there were popular uprisings to defend him from CIA/international corporation backed coups and 'student' protests.

This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he was an overall bad person or whether he was overall good for the country. It just means the US (as it is wont to do) managed to shoot themselves in the foot and empower him even further.

Doorknob Slobber posted:

It is indisputable that Chavez did a ton of good, all you have to do is look at the increases in literacy.
People are starving and killing each other because of it and the country is run by violent criminals. As a direct result of Chavez and how he looted his own country and embraced self destructive policies that would see it effectively destroyed.

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

no he was responsible for funneling huge amounts of money that was supposedly going to socialist programs to his cronies, empowering and protecting narco traffickers to raise money to cover the shortfall, covering up the resultant crime wave and harassing victims into silence, corrupting elections beyond all recognition with state funds, funding FARC, crushing his critics (including trade unions and any labor groups he felt were a threat to his power), and filled the government with a legion of corrupt thieves who got rich off extortion and hoarding. he may have started with good intentions but after the 2002 coup attempt he got steadily more unhinged and began justifying anything he did as anti-imperialist. i've met with people who were kidnapped multiple times in a year by criminals who had the implicit backing of the regime. one guy escaped incompetent kidnappers and went to the police who delivered him right back to the gang, who cut off his hand and killed him. his cousin fled after that.

Chavez was the definition of "make myself look better at the cost of everything sucking for everyone 10 to 20 years down the road". He stole his country's investments in the future and used them to personally enrich himself and his followers and insure he wouldn't be removed from power.

logikv9
Mar 5, 2009


Ham Wrangler
cesar chavez did nothing wrong

Baloogan
Dec 5, 2004
Fun Shoe

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

logikv9 posted:

cesar chavez did nothing wrong

He was alright.

logikv9
Mar 5, 2009


Ham Wrangler
maurice chavez also did nothing wrong and he was a good man

Zerg Mans
Oct 19, 2006


I never knew how to play rainbow 6 when I was a kid so I always ASSUMED DIRECT CONTROL of him because clearly he was the best, and always got him killed on the first mission.

Al-Saqr
Nov 11, 2007

yeah I was pretty sympathetic to him at first but the level of incompetence and downright mismanagement he displayed is beyond excuses. like it's good that he took care of the poor but if you cant even provide basic goods like toilet paper then you've failed, sorry.

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->
agreed op and its p disheartening that a lot of leftists seem to sympathize excessively with third world dictators

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

zegermans posted:

I never knew how to play rainbow 6 when I was a kid so I always ASSUMED DIRECT CONTROL of him because clearly he was the best, and always got him killed on the first mission.

The correct way to play Rainbow Six was to have enough friends to assume direct control of everyone simultaneously, right?

Baloogan
Dec 5, 2004
Fun Shoe

GlyphGryph posted:

The correct way to play Rainbow Six was to have enough friends to assume direct control of everyone simultaneously, right?

the AI was way better than any player :/

The Brown Menace
Dec 24, 2010

Now comes in all colors.


Counterpoint: Chavez good

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case


The Brown Menace posted:

Counterpoint: Chavez good

actually Chavez extremely bad

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Baloogan posted:

the AI was way better than any player :/

That's why you do it, you can't really blame the AI for loving up your perfect plan but you can totally blame other people.

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

The Brown Menace posted:

Counterpoint: Chavez good

Counterpoint: Venezuela, circa 2017

Darkman Fanpage
Jul 4, 2012

always bring ding :madmax:

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

Dalaram
Jun 6, 2002

Marshall/Kirtaner 8/24 nevar forget! (omg pedo)
Chaffetz still bad

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

Fojar38 posted:

agreed op and its p disheartening that a lot of leftists seem to sympathize excessively with third world dictators

Gringo de merda.

Fiction
Apr 28, 2011

Plutonis posted:

Gringo de merda.

whats your hot take plutonis

Doorknob Slobber
Sep 10, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

GlyphGryph posted:

Counterpoint: Venezuela, circa 2017

Counterpoint: Chavez dead, circa 2013

The Brown Menace
Dec 24, 2010

Now comes in all colors.


DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

actually Chavez extremely bad

i hadnt considered this, ill include it in my analysis and get back to u

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

Fiction posted:

whats your hot take plutonis

He honestly did as good as an anti-revolutionary job as he could and revitalized South America's leftism which sweeped the continent for a good while before the US and the local Oligarchies struck back with a loving vengeance. The fact he WASN'T the purge-happy psychopath that most corporate/US-backed media paint him actually hampered him since the Venezuelan elites did their best to kneecap the country enough so they can take it back and turn it into an american satrapy like Colombia.

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Doorknob Slobber posted:

Counterpoint: Chavez dead, circa 2013

Counterpoint:
The rapid (and accelerating) deterioration of the country started prior to 2013 and his death.
Actions can, in fact, have long term consequences (and usually do).
The current government is still basically the one he built.

Being dead is a pretty lovely excuse for destroying a country, and in fact is pretty good evidence for your being absolute poo poo if you left a country so weak that your death turns it into this so quickly.

The Brown Menace
Dec 24, 2010

Now comes in all colors.


ok ive run the numbers again and now the final verdict is "chavez extremely good"???? what the he*l is going on here

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Plutonis posted:

He honestly did as good as an anti-revolutionary job as he could and revitalized South America's leftism which sweeped the continent for a good while before the US and the local Oligarchies struck back with a loving vengeance. The fact he WASN'T the purge-happy psychopath that most corporate/US-backed media paint him actually hampered him since the Venezuelan elites did their best to kneecap the country enough so they can take it back and turn it into an american satrapy like Colombia.

He literally, personally, set up the oligarchy that is currently killing Venezuela.

Fiction
Apr 28, 2011

GlyphGryph posted:

Counterpoint:
The rapid (and accelerating) deterioration of the country started prior to 2013 and his death.
Actions can, in fact, have long term consequences (and usually do).
The current government is still basically the one he built.

Being dead is a pretty lovely excuse for destroying a country, and in fact is pretty good evidence for your being absolute poo poo if you left a country so weak that your death turns it into this so quickly.

OK but his "destroying the country" was funneling oil money into the state apparatus which, while corrupt, ostensibly sought to bring people out of poverty and provide for them. Guess what: politics is corrupt, especially in the Global South when the number one military power is breathing down your neck and doing its damndest to take you out of power no matter how many indigenous people it gets killed.

It may not have been a viable long-term strategy for stability when you're entirely dependent on the variable value of your natural resources, but I blame Chavez less for this than the IMF and US who have made resisting these undemocratic, imperialist systems difficult to impossible.

Fiction
Apr 28, 2011
It's like saying Dilma and Lula are bad because of Petrobras. Well, yes, but their opponents who stand to gain from their absence are ruthless privatizers who will cut social services while being just as corrupt.

Al-Saqr
Nov 11, 2007

Bottom Line:-

If you cant secure basic foodstuffs and Toilet paper, you're a failure no matter what your ideology is.

Lastgirl
Sep 7, 1997


Good Morning!
Sunday Morning!
i have a friend who came from Venezuela and she personally said its the worst and shes lived here for quite some time now as a direct impact. If you brought up politics, she'd bitch about Chavez and the corruption.

Unfortunately because it's so bad there, she had to go back to take care of her parents who are too old to leave and are in need of heathcare. :sigh:

I keep in touch with her so I need to ask how she's doing sometimes soon. (well, I hope)

Yossarian-22
Oct 26, 2014

He did set up an oligarchy centered around himself, but I still can't stand the insistence from people that he was a "dictator" when he won free and fair elections. He was a corrupt democratically elected leader much like the right wing version of that we have in America rn

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Fiction posted:

OK but his "destroying the country" was funneling oil money into the state apparatus which, while corrupt, ostensibly sought to bring people out of poverty and provide for them. Guess what: politics is corrupt, especially in the Global South when the number one military power is breathing down your neck and doing its damndest to take you out of power no matter how many indigenous people it gets killed.

This would be a great argument if that wealth was actually invested in the state apparatus and the future of the country. It absolutely was not. His rule was a constant drumbeat of killing egg-laying gooses to enjoy extravagant dinners, and most of that extravagance was only available to his political supporters.

What they "ostensibly" sought to do is irrelevant - Chavez had plenty of good rhetoric, but actions speak larger than words, and his actions were not those of someone genuinely interested in the ongoing well being of the Venezuelan people, especially the worst off. They were perfectly in keeping with someone interested in weakening opposition, centralizing power, removing competitors and creating their own personal oligarchy of loyalists though.

quote:

It may not have been a viable long-term strategy for stability when you're entirely dependent on the variable value of your natural resources, but I blame Chavez less for this than the IMF and US who have made resisting these undemocratic, imperialist systems difficult to impossible.
Venezuela had plenty of support from China. Combined with their oil money, they absolutely did not need the US or the IMF. This is an excuse, and a pretty terrible one.

Doorknob Slobber
Sep 10, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

GlyphGryph posted:

Counterpoint:
The rapid (and accelerating) deterioration of the country started prior to 2013 and his death.
Actions can, in fact, have long term consequences (and usually do).
The current government is still basically the one he built.

Being dead is a pretty lovely excuse for destroying a country, and in fact is pretty good evidence for your being absolute poo poo if you left a country so weak that your death turns it into this so quickly.

Part of the reason the country has been spiraling out of control is because of opposition forces(rich nationals, foreign corporations and the US) working directly against socialism. I feel like this is important to recognize because those same forces that destabilized the Bolivarian Revolution will probably attempt to destabilize any push for socialism in the US or elsewhere by similar methods.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Fiction
Apr 28, 2011

GlyphGryph posted:

Venezuela had plenty of support from China. Combined with their oil money, they absolutely did not need the US or the IMF. This is an excuse, and a pretty terrible one.

And when the oil price crashed, would China's help have been enough to make it through without severe contraction in the economy and a terrible humanitarian crisis? It's a moot point because it's happening anyway but global capitalism is absolutely a factor in how successful an anti-imperialist line can really be.

Fiction
Apr 28, 2011
Chavez stood up to us and we (well, our capitalists) did everything in our power to bring him down, drat the humanitarian consequences. Until the US's stranglehold on global politics and economy loosens further, I'll have a hard time criticizing anyone resisting our efforts for not doing a good enough job at it.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

Fojar38 posted:

agreed op and its p disheartening that a lot of leftists seem to sympathize excessively with third world dictators

see also Qaddafi apologia

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Fiction posted:

It's like saying Dilma and Lula are bad because of Petrobras. Well, yes, but their opponents who stand to gain from their absence are ruthless privatizers who will cut social services while being just as corrupt.

And...? It's possible to support bad people who are better than their alternatives while fully admitting they are bad people. There's a reason I voted for Hillary in the general, after all, and it's not because "Trump is bad, therefore Hillary is actually really good!"

Yossarian-22 posted:

He did set up an oligarchy centered around himself, but I still can't stand the insistence from people that he was a "dictator" when he won free and fair elections. He was a corrupt democratically elected leader much like the right wing version of that we have in America rn

He actively undermined political opposition and worked to dismantle the rule of law and remove checks on his power. I do agree he was not truly a dictator (at least no more than Putin is) but he operated much like Trump is doing know to pave the way for a future dictatorship, and towards the end of his life he was getting awfully close to full dictator status./

And three years after his death, the country is definitely a full on dictatorship that has banned it's own legislative body, given huge chunks of the civil services to the military, and indefinitely postponed elections while making GBS threads on the constitution.

If Chavez wasn't a dictator, he certainly made becoming one incredibly easy - and if he had lived until today, based on his past actions, the only thing that would have changed is the guy on top right now.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

Fiction posted:

Bin Laden stood up to us and we (well, our capitalists) did everything in our power to bring him down, drat the humanitarian consequences. Until the US's stranglehold on global politics and economy loosens further, I'll have a hard time criticizing anyone resisting our efforts for not doing a good enough job at it.

Fiction
Apr 28, 2011

bin laden was financed by us, dumbass

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Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

Fiction posted:

ISIS stood up to us and we (well, our capitalists) did everything in our power to bring him down, drat the humanitarian consequences. Until the US's stranglehold on global politics and economy loosens further, I'll have a hard time criticizing anyone resisting our efforts for not doing a good enough job at it.

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