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Ciaphas posted:one of us It is some amazing writing that the main villain of the game has been dead for a thousand years, and is not directly responsible for the main threat, but inspires such incredible, visceral hatred. I feel like he just pissed on my dog. What a douchebag.
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Dec 9, 2017 03:59
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Ugly In The Morning posted:It is some amazing writing that the main villain of the game has been dead for a thousand years, and is not directly responsible for the main threat, but inspires such incredible, visceral hatred. I feel like he just pissed on my dog. What a douchebag. I'm convinced that he isn't dead. I feel like we would have got some recording of him being decapitated by a sex robot in his bunker or something. It's too big of a loose end. Maybe he'll be cloned, or maybe he's in cryogenics or something, but he's coming back. As to your second point, it's a question I've been thinking about a lot. Why do I (and everyone else) hate him so much? I think most people can forgive or ignore your standard brute villains. Helis is objectively a monster of a person, but there's something to admire in his combat prowess and toughness. Most bad guys have to display a strong level of physical ability and courage to match up with the protagonist. But there's something so weak and low in Ted Faro, something so genuinely pathetic, that just makes people recoil. If he had just cackled manically as he killed the alphas, we'd still hate him, but it wouldn't make an impact. But the fact that he really believes his own bullshit, the fact that he gets so warped by shame and self-loathing that he destroys human history.... It's breathtaking. He's not Darth Vader or Ganondorf or whatever, he's a loser nice guy who never gets over Elizabet rejecting him. If he got less lucky in life, he'd be posting on r/incels. He's too loving human and relatable, and that makes us mad.
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Dec 9, 2017 04:14
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for me it was more the amount of egotistical hubris required to logically connect "i hosed up the human race for everyone => humans should not have our intelligence to not repeat i mean im sure the gradual loss of sanity helped but still Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Dec 9, 2017 |
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Dec 9, 2017 04:33
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Smirking_Serpent posted:I'm convinced that he isn't dead. I feel like we would have got some recording of him being decapitated by a sex robot in his bunker or something. It's too big of a loose end. Maybe he'll be cloned, or maybe he's in cryogenics or something, but he's coming back. 
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Dec 9, 2017 04:49
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The stuff with Helis is a lot less compelling, which is unfortunate, but there’s some intense self-loathing and weird religious stuff going on with him too. He’s totally Ted Faro’s id or something.
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Dec 9, 2017 05:59
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:The stuff with Helis is a lot less compelling, which is unfortunate, but there’s some intense self-loathing and weird religious stuff going on with him too. He’s totally Ted Faro’s id or something. Yeah the log about Helis and his wife choosing to sleep on the ground was really interesting. It felt like the diary of an ISIS commander.
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Dec 9, 2017 06:01
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While Helis is a less complicated threat/villain than Faro, he's definitely threatening and early on established as a target of rancor on the player's part. Aloy's "turn your face to the sun" is loving vicious.
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Dec 9, 2017 06:03
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Smirking_Serpent posted:
It's the same reason why the Punisher in the marvel Netflix is an awful person but you can root for him. He's human. His failings are things you can see every day and his worst works are things any of us could do if we were torn up with guilt. We all want to be Elizabet Sobeck, but we all understand we could be gently caress up and be Ted.
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Dec 9, 2017 07:35
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isk posted:While Helis is a less complicated threat/villain than Faro, he's definitely threatening and early on established as a target of rancor on the player's part. Aloy's "turn your face to the sun" is loving vicious. imho they missed a golden opportunity by not having Helis say, "drat Aloy, you really are savage" as she stabs him following that line.
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Dec 9, 2017 09:36
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Man, I know that The Man Who Sold The World got used a lot in MGSV, but if HZD2 goes to Thebes and has a defrosted Ted Faro, and One of the dialogue options isn't "I thought you died alone, a long long time ago," I'm gonna be annoyed.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:58
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ShadowedFlames posted:Oh, god. HZD as directed by This is so fascinating and it makes me wonder if a prominent Japanese director has ever gone over and worked with a western development studio on a game before.
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Dec 16, 2017 03:09
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Lock up David Cage and put SWERY in charge of Quantic Dream.
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Dec 16, 2017 03:25
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So I just beat the game.... internal screaming intensifies They worship a DOOR! They worship a loving door and I can't handle that they worship a door. Then they worship Aloy. I'd say that they'd worship a coffee cup but that really goes without saying. The Nora are so infuriating that when Helis said he was sending an eclipse war party to kill them my first thought was 'I hope they don't hurt the door'. The Carja want to worship the Sun. Fine, good. It's the Sun. It's not a drat door. Ted Faro thinks it's a good idea to think the Sun is a god apparently so you don't know any better so go for it. I don't want to get into the moral and ethical implications of genetic eugenics I just want to say I very much disagree with Zero Dawn's Alpha in this regard. I wanted to jump through the TV and strangle Ted Faro's hologram. I have never wanted a dead man who isn't even real to die so much in my life. How the gently caress can one man be responsible for loving the world twice? You are a double apocalypse man and I wish I could will hell into existence so you could have a place to suffer for all eternity while you gaze upon your works in abject horror. Who the gently caress gave him Omega clearance? Who the gently caress told him anything about anything other than where to send his bank account? I don't even care about Helis. He's runoff from bad decisions made centuries ago. He's not a person, he's a by-product. It's all so STUPID! It's stupid and I can't handle it. I barely feel like I accomplished anything when I beat it. I maintained an infuriating status quo. I swear the world is better off as Farobot fuel at this point. I just beat this and NieR back-to-back. Anybody got suggestions for a palette cleanser? ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 12:35
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I'd suggest the roast beef combo, sir.
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Dec 16, 2017 12:39
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I'm not quite nihilistic enough to eat at Arby's. Nobody actually is.
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Dec 16, 2017 12:41
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It's a talking door
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Dec 16, 2017 13:50
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Regy Rusty posted:It's a talking door If I had no other context for the world I lived in and my technological advancement could be considered Iron Age at best I’d worship a talking door too. It talks!
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Dec 16, 2017 14:58
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Regy Rusty posted:It's a talking door With Satan's corpse in front of it. ChrisBTY posted:They worship a DOOR! They worship a loving door and I can't handle that they worship a door. Then they worship Aloy. I'd say that they'd worship a coffee cup but that really goes without saying. Just out of curiosity, you didn't collect all the mugs in the game, did you? Edit: EugeneDebsWasCool posted:If I had no other context for the world I lived in and my technological advancement could be considered Iron Age at best I’d worship a talking door too. It talks! The moment you start looking at modern, real-world religions, worshiping a talking invincible door makes a lot of sense. Dienes fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 18:18
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ChrisBTY posted:They worship a DOOR! They worship a loving door and I can't handle that they worship a door. People throughout the centuries have worshiped clay figurines, dumb animals, "miraculous" springs, and Miley Cyrus. A talking door that's about ten thousand times more complex than anything you could ever hope to devise is, at the least, a comparatively sensible target of veneration.
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Dec 16, 2017 18:22
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It's also the door that their local chapter of the first generation of reconstituted humanity walked out of and a thousand years of oral history had since equated it to a giant vagina (because that's where people got born from after that), called it the all-mother (i.e. where the first people were born from), developed a matriarchal culture around it (guys don't have baby doors), and worshipped it.
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Dec 16, 2017 18:33
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It's probably the most sensible object veneration of history, really. The drat thing really did give birth to humanity!
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Dec 16, 2017 18:33
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I do like how every culture in HZD is kind of a collossal rear end in a top hat. Doesn't matter if you're a matriarchy, monarchy, meritocracy, winter nomad, ya'll got poo poo under your nails. It's realistic. They are all also kind of awesome. See, I don't actually get too upset by the whole "APOLLO is gone" thing because, as tragic as it is that we can't build a new utopian humanity 2.0 out of the ashes, the fact is is that we're already demonstrably incredible even without supertechnological help. We don't need "god" to give us wisdom -- tribes people built Meridian, a marvel of engineering. Humans who believe the sun is holy were able to reverse-engineer advanced computer technology by sheer ingenuity. Sure, you have things like HADES pushing people like Sylens along, but the fact is is that humans are still great at surviving, adapting, building and creating. We'll always be flawed creatures, but those flaws complete the human condition. That's more or less I think what HZD's basic worldview is. You can see proof of this in the justification for HADES. Gaia needs a killswitch, and if it was all love, peace and happiness all the time, the world would be a stagnant and toxic place. Everything needs its opposite to maintain balance. EDIT: Aloy represents wisdom, of due note -- she's not a lifebringer like Gaia (yet) but she's not a destroyer like HADES (yet) but instead she saves life and takes it, guided by her wisdom. I'd argue she could also reflect compassion, but she's more wise than compassionate, even if she does possess compassion and empathy also. 8-Bit Scholar fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 19:57
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the presence of apollo would mean a humanity that wouldnt be stupid enough to sabotage their own environmental/life support systems but thats par the course for magamen
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Dec 16, 2017 22:24
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Regy Rusty posted:It's a talking door https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn3Vv6VYdxw
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Dec 17, 2017 00:08
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I do like how every culture in HZD is kind of a collossal rear end in a top hat. Doesn't matter if you're a matriarchy, monarchy, meritocracy, winter nomad, ya'll got poo poo under your nails. It's realistic. They are all also kind of awesome. Wow a Ted Faro was right post 
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Dec 17, 2017 00:36
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Regy Rusty posted:Wow a Ted Faro was right post I fail to see how that's the point of my post at all. My point is that humans are still capable of great things, with or without the knowledge of our past. What Ted Faro did was unambiguously wrong.
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Dec 17, 2017 00:40
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The tragedy of APOLLO isn't that humanity will never be able to achieve greatness again. The tragedy is that humankind will have to suffer another several thousand years of murderous kings, sociopathic generals, and Mammonian merchants and all of the assorted death and chaos they will bring before they can actually get back to where the pre-Plague humans barely managed to get to.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:03
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I do like how every culture in HZD is kind of a collossal rear end in a top hat. Doesn't matter if you're a matriarchy, monarchy, meritocracy, winter nomad, ya'll got poo poo under your nails. It's realistic. They are all also kind of awesome. Whoa there Look when we say "gently caress Ted Faro" it's an expression of hate and disgust.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:16
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Horizon Zero Dawn's worldview consistently argues in favor of cooperation and self-sacrifice over myopic individualism. Ted Faro destroying Apollo is insanely dickish not just because he wipes out 10,000 years of human civilization to placate his own shattered ego, but because he alone believes he is fit to decide what knowledge is worth and not worth preserving. Knowledge that, by the way, is threatened only because of his unilateral greed in defiance of all failsafes.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:58
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Vermain posted:The tragedy of APOLLO isn't that humanity will never be able to achieve greatness again. The tragedy is that humankind will have to suffer another several thousand years of murderous kings, sociopathic generals, and Mammonian merchants and all of the assorted death and chaos they will bring before they can actually get back to where the pre-Plague humans barely managed to get to. pre-Plague humans lived in an age of war and corporate greed. I don't think we somehow had managed to get anywhere close to some perfect future, we'd nearly killed the planet and Faros Plague is literally war machines gone rogue. The whole purpose of APOLLO was to allow humans to restart more or less where they left off, and maybe -- emphasis on maybe -- do it better. My entire point was simply that mankind has done quite a lot of great stuff despite not having that. We do not *need* APOLLO to do great things. Aloy and Sylens and many Oseraam and the Shadow Carja all manage to accomplish great things by their own power. exquisite tea posted:Horizon Zero Dawn's worldview consistently argues in favor of cooperation and self-sacrifice over myopic individualism. Ted Faro destroying Apollo is insanely dickish not just because he wipes out 10,000 years of human civilization to placate his own shattered ego, but because he alone believes he is fit to decide what knowledge is worth and not worth preserving. Knowledge that, by the way, is threatened only because of his unilateral greed in defiance of all failsafes. I completely agree and I don't see where in my post I say this is a good thing.
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Dec 17, 2017 04:16
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8-Bit Scholar posted:pre-Plague humans lived in an age of war and corporate greed. I don't think we somehow had managed to get anywhere close to some perfect future, we'd nearly killed the planet and Faros Plague is literally war machines gone rogue. The whole purpose of APOLLO was to allow humans to restart more or less where they left off, and maybe -- emphasis on maybe -- do it better. My entire point was simply that mankind has done quite a lot of great stuff despite not having that. We do not *need* APOLLO to do great things. Aloy and Sylens and many Oseraam and the Shadow Carja all manage to accomplish great things by their own power. Did you just tear through the base game without seeing any of the dialogue from the alphas? The game hammers you over the head with descriptions of how they were designing the entire lyceum to essentially condition everyone not to be Ted Faro.
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Dec 17, 2017 04:24
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FAUXTON posted:Did you just tear through the base game without seeing any of the dialogue from the alphas? The game hammers you over the head with descriptions of how they were designing the entire lyceum to essentially condition everyone not to be Ted Faro. That was the hope, sure, but there's no guarantee of success, to say nothing of whether you can really condition evil out of the human psyche. Again, I'm not even saying that deleting APOLLO was somehow justified or good -- simply that, even without it, the humans of HZD and the tribes particularly are all really impressive and quite a lot more intelligent and capable our actual prehistorical humans were, and they have accomplished great things without the need of divine intercession.
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Dec 17, 2017 04:27
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8-Bit Scholar posted:That was the hope, sure, but there's no guarantee of success, to say nothing of whether you can really condition evil out of the human psyche. Again, I'm not even saying that deleting APOLLO was somehow justified or good -- simply that, even without it, the humans of HZD and the tribes particularly are all really impressive and quite a lot more intelligent and capable our actual prehistorical humans were, and they have accomplished great things without the need of divine intercession. They could have tried to condition evil out of the human psyche but the guy in that department is the guy who created the accord designed to specifically not do that. They wouldn't have succeeded of course but they could mitigated the damage. Also, I am aware that worshipping stupid things is par for the course of human history. But the Nora had at least a concept of superior technology. Their world was built in the ruins of superior technology. That none of them could bring themselves to parse that maybe something from the Old Ones still worked is, you know what it's not even stupid. It's just sad. And to be honest, my opinion of Nora door worship was set before I came to the realization that the progenitors of the Nora tribe came from the other side of the door and would naturally pine for their childhood home, sad though it may have been. Also I collected all the ancient vessels. Thought to bring one home to the Nora so I could create a heretic faith.
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Dec 17, 2017 04:56
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Eleuthia was a genetic snapshot of the human race without eugenics, it doesn’t have anything to do with conditioning out evil unless you think evil is genetic. Losing out on the technology and art and so forth of Apollo is tragic and a crime against humanity but the whole point was to put humans in a place where they could take control of the terraforming equipment and finish reconstructing the biosphere, while also providing the historical and ethical instruction (informed by all of human history) to avoid repeating previous mistakes - like believing that human sacrifice is necessary to keep the sun rising, etc. The Metal World was a profoundly unjust society, but it’s something the people of the future could have learned from, but thanks to people like Ted and Herres (but mostly Ted) it was destroyed twice over.
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Dec 18, 2017 14:15
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Oh right the carja built meridian on human sacrifice and (implied) slave labor.
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Dec 18, 2017 14:35
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I think the sacrifices only began as a response to the Derangement, but yeah the Carja are the most unequal society in the world of Horizon despite being the most powerful.
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Dec 18, 2017 14:41
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exquisite tea posted:I think the sacrifices only began as a response to the Derangement, but yeah the Carja are the most unequal society in the world of Horizon hence they are most powerful. Fixed that for you. You can go a lot farther when human suffering and death has no meaning to your society as a whole. The ends don't justify the means in an ethical society, however.
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Dec 18, 2017 15:08
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exquisite tea posted:I think the sacrifices only began as a response to the Derangement, but yeah the Carja are the most unequal society in the world of Horizon despite being the most powerful. Power and inequality are inherently linked. The only way a society can support entire armies of warriors or a huge number of priests like the Carja is if farmers are producing a large amount of surplus food. Whoever controls the distribution of that surplus food is extremely powerful. So that's at least three castes of people: a) the farmers actually growing the food; b) the various people who are thus freed to not grow food and be professional warriors, priests, hunters, etc. (they become the nobility); and c) the King who collects extra food from a) and gives it to b) in exchange for their services. Compare that to the Nora who are hunter-gatherers, who in real life tend to be more egalitarian. it wouldn't surprise me if even high-ranking people like the war-chief and the matriarchs help collect food during the 90% of the year there isn't a war or sacred ceremony going on. In reality hunter-gatherers don't obtain enough food to do otherwise. That's why agriculture was so revolutionary in human history; being able to make so much food led to a huge population boom and the rise of cities and kingdoms, but also to inequality.
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Dec 18, 2017 17:17
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Eleuthia was a genetic snapshot of the human race without eugenics, it doesn’t have anything to do with conditioning out evil unless you think evil is genetic. Taking measures to condition out egocentrism, obstinance and aggression might have done wonders.
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Dec 19, 2017 23:19
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ChrisBTY posted:Taking measures to condition out egocentrism, obstinance and aggression might have done wonders. Or hosed it all up. Humanity's flawed but we got this way over millennia of natural selection. Learning from the past is going to have better results than removing traits that put us on the moon and created cultures over thousands of years, but destroyed the ozone layer and led to inequality.
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Dec 19, 2017 23:56
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