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Helsing posted:The judge in Meads v Meads really summed it up nicely: I love the comparison to alchemists, it seems particularly apt.
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Mar 16, 2017 00:44
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What is really distinctive about sovereign citizens is that unlike other hard-core anti-government conspiracy theorists they actually seem to believe that frontline police officers or judges and court officials are secretly aware of and indeed are obliged to honour the insane mumbo jumbo about joinder, gold frilled flags and admiralty law. You can find numerous videos on youtube where people get beaten, tasered or pepper sprayed by police because they genuinely believed that repeatedly screaming "I do not wish to create joinder with you!" during a road stop would prevent an American police officer form manhandling them. Plenty of other libertarian and paleoconservative belief systems consider the government illegitimate or believe that modern laws are actually unconstitutional or otherwise contradictory. Only sovereign citizens seem stupid enough to actually risk their lives testing out whether the police will respect their rather fanciful interpretations of 18th century maritime codes.
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Mar 16, 2017 00:58
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Anybody have any good literature on domestic extremism not yet posted? I am working through the end of Them by Jon Ronson, which was published just before September 11th, when these people were still the most serious thing that most Americans worried about. Them makes the following determinations, in so many words: - Central to extremism is anti-semitism. - Rather than brand themselves as openly anti-semitic, most groups have come up with elaborate code terminology, and focus their efforts on theories revolving around a New World Order and the Bilderberg Group. They then use this code terminology to sucker in new recruits, and before you know it, you're sitting in a shed preparing for war against the shadow government. - I say most, because the Aryan Nations discard all ambiguity and are actually frothing-at-the-mouth ready to murder people at the drop of a hat. Then there was Ian Paisley, who was just overall a deeply unpleasant person to be around. - The actual Bilderberg Group is so tired of crazies attempting to spy on its meetings that they use strong-arm tactics on anyone who pokes around asking questions, use security to intimidate people, have legitimate journalists arrested, and so on. - Middle Eastern extremism (at least that Ronson encounters) is almost indistinguishable in its ideology from domestic extremists. NWO and Bilderberg talk abounds in their circles. And many white nationalists at the time considered those groups to be like-minded and possible allies in their future fantasy. - As soon as any of these people get a whiff that they might receive press coverage, they set whatever ideology they profess aside and welcome coverage with open arms, even when it is obvious to them that Ronson is Jewish (Aryan Nations and Paisley are again the exceptions).
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Mar 16, 2017 01:14
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I wonder if these people ever experience a "moment of realization" as the cuffs close around their wrists, or when the holding cell door slams ... or if they just double down. Ahh, hell. I think I know the answer 
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Mar 16, 2017 03:57
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LongSack posted:I wonder if these people ever experience a "moment of realization" as the cuffs close around their wrists, or when the holding cell door slams ... or if they just double down. Ahh, hell. I think I know the answer Unfortunately it actually worked for the Malheur occupation.
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Mar 16, 2017 04:13
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ToxicSlurpee posted:One real problem with sovcits is that they want to keep all the benefits of society but not have to pay for them. Notice how they want to pay no taxes but still want to use public roads or live in a safe country. Taxes kind of pay for those things.
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Mar 16, 2017 04:33
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Unfortunately it actually worked for the Malheur occupation. Yeah 
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Mar 16, 2017 04:35
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OneEightHundred posted:They're a level of crazy beyond that though. I mean we have a whole political party dedicated to the idea that the only thing of value that the government produces is military and police, but it takes something more like solipsism to think that you can just opt out of the law applying to you at all. Yeah and when all the red states burn down while the blue states limp along America will decay pretty hard and it will still be Obama's fault somehow.
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Mar 16, 2017 04:37
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Unfortunately it actually worked for the Malheur occupation. Hey, wanna get real mad? Read the Wikipedia page about the aftermath of the occupation. quote:Following the surrender of the last militants, the FBI labeled the entire refuge a crime scene and canvassed the buildings in search of explosives and any previously existing hazardous materials.[207] A collection of firearms and explosives were found inside the refuge.[208] Safes were found to have been broken into, with money, cameras, and computers stolen by the militants. They were also found to have badly damaged tribal artifacts.[209] The FBI's Art Crime Team conducted an archaeological field assessment to determine if the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act or the Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 were violated; additional charges may result if so.[210] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge
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Mar 16, 2017 06:45
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The real injustice is that I toxxed that nothing would happen to the people involved and I was banned.
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Mar 16, 2017 07:04
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Unfortunately it actually worked for the Malheur occupation. Maybe I'm missing the joke, but I thought the Malheur verdict was simple jury nullification, unless you're saying that it was the SovCit poo poo that convinced them.
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Mar 16, 2017 15:03
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Maybe? The government choose to bring conspiracy charges, which requires a proof of intent (IANAL). The jury found insufficient evidence of intent among the protestors. The verdict was a confluence of a poor prosecutoral strategy, some suggestive jury hijinks and
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Mar 16, 2017 15:57
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On the one hand I think they are all idiots, but on the other hand I witnessed otherwise intelligent posters get hung up on the incredibly complex legal concept of a two word phrase having a more specific legal definition than the dictionary definitions of the two individual words combined so I kind of get how someone who finds the law scary and intimidating would grab onto a shortcut that gives them power.
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Mar 16, 2017 15:58
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Xand_Man posted:Maybe? The government choose to bring conspiracy charges, which requires a proof of intent (IANAL). The jury found insufficient evidence of intent among the protestors. The verdict was a confluence of a poor prosecutoral strategy, some suggestive jury hijinks and
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Mar 16, 2017 16:20
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It does make me wonder if there are significant disparities in how white jurors approach the subject of nullification vs minority ones. I'd hypothesize that whites would be more open to the prospect due to being conditioned to view the law as being meant to serve them.
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Mar 16, 2017 16:31
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Keeshhound posted:It does make me wonder if there are significant disparities in how white jurors approach the subject of nullification vs minority ones. I'd hypothesize that whites would be more open to the prospect due to being conditioned to view the law as being meant to serve them. It's more than that -- nullification has almost always been used specifically to uphold white supremacy.
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Mar 16, 2017 20:53
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:It's more than that -- nullification has almost always been used specifically to uphold white supremacy. Do you mean specifically in cases of white crimes against minorities? Because jury nullification has a history that goes much further back than just the United States, and a significant part of its history in the states is northern juries using it to protest the fugitive slave act.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:35
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dont even fink about it posted:Hey, wanna get real mad? Read the Wikipedia page about the aftermath of the occupation. I still contend the feds did nothing wrong at Waco and should have steamrolled these clowns as well. Bonfire Lit posted:The jury didn't give a gently caress about proof of anything, as evidenced by them voting NG on a theft of government property charge against Kenneth Medenbach, who literally was arrested while driving a stolen MNWR truck with the markings painted over in sharpie And LMAO juries are for uncivilised shitholes without a functioning central government that need to make sure the locals don't feel like
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Mar 16, 2017 21:55
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Nevvy Z posted:On the one hand I think they are all idiots, but on the other hand I witnessed otherwise intelligent posters get hung up on the incredibly complex legal concept of a two word phrase having a more specific legal definition than the dictionary definitions of the two individual words combined so I kind of get how someone who finds the law scary and intimidating would grab onto a shortcut that gives them power. Look Secret ballot can be agreed upon by some group as a dance where they puppet around whole fried chickens and when they say they are having a secret ballot people will think they are having a ballot in secret. It is like the opposite of the phenomena where people use irregardless. They mean one thing but that doesn't stop people from hearing another, especially given how milquetoast their avoidance of a 'secret ballot' is. Sure they know no one stuffed the ballots, but that doesn't mean we know who voted for anything. are DNC voting members elected on any level?
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Mar 16, 2017 22:02
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blowfish posted:I still contend the feds did nothing wrong at Waco and should have steamrolled these clowns as well. Setting aside all legal/moral justifications, which is not not lightly done, unless you went in with a terminator some cops were probably going to die, and I don't think ideally anyone wanted the building to be collapsed into rubble and lit on fire outside of the nutters sitting in it.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:27
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dont even fink about it posted:Setting aside all legal/moral justifications, which is not not lightly done, unless you went in with a terminator some cops were probably going to die, and I don't think ideally anyone wanted the building to be collapsed into rubble and lit on fire outside of the nutters sitting in it. And among the occupiers were those who'd specifically lined their wives and children ahead of them in the previous Bundy Ranch standoff, with the open and avowed purpose of their deaths in any exchange of fire making the cops look bad.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:40
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dont even fink about it posted:Setting aside all legal/moral justifications, which is not not lightly done, unless you went in with a terminator some cops were probably going to die, and I don't think ideally anyone wanted the building to be collapsed into rubble and lit on fire outside of the nutters sitting in it. If those nutters claim they're doing a real revolution then send in the troops like you're crushing a real revolution 
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Mar 16, 2017 22:41
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Why should you legitimize it? They were trespassing, and the FBI treated them like they were.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:42
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Keeshhound posted:Why should you legitimize it? They were trespassing, and the FBI treated them like they were. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzC4Dzj7kWI
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Mar 16, 2017 22:56
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Dawncloack posted:Historically I'd say it can be traced back to Flesh and blood defenses. Look it up, it's a fascinating read. Also depressing. Finally got around to looking into this, and thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for, specifically here.
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Mar 17, 2017 04:09
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I was really disappointed that this thread wasn't about Mega City 1's eastern counterpart.
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Mar 23, 2017 22:22
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Fish of hemp posted:I was really disappointed that this thread wasn't about Mega City 1's eastern counterpart. Dredd & Discussion
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Mar 23, 2017 22:24
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blowfish posted:If those nutters claim they're doing a real revolution then send in the troops like you're crushing a real revolution Other then the jury nullification, I think it worked out better in the end, because those idiots just look like a bunch of hicks, not martyrs to an overstepping government.
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Mar 24, 2017 00:26
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Fish of hemp posted:I was really disappointed that this thread wasn't about Mega City 1's eastern counterpart. 
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Mar 24, 2017 11:22
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