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lotus circle
Dec 25, 2012

Jushure Iburu
So don't worry

Rune Full Moon posted:

Bern's "North Wind and the Sun" strategy is even more refined than Beato's.
I wouldn't call it NWatS strategy. Unlike Beato, who acted super helpful in EP 3, Bern has never really indicated that she was a good witch. She's not as in-your-face about her nastiness as Lambda, but even as early as EP 4 you could tell something was sinister about her. Most people made that assumption because of the EP1 and EP2 tea parties, as well as bringing Ange into the game, but she herself never really proclaimed to be a good person.

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Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
It's worth remembering that at the end of Episode 1, in her first appearance, Bernkastel referred to herself as the cruelest witch in the world.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

oath2order posted:

As an aside, Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni utterly breaks Knox's Rules. Off hand I think it violates like 5 directly. Some are to it'so detriment as a mystery, while others are really quite ingenious.

I'm not at all convinced Higurashi was ever meant to even resemble a fair mystery, though; it reads much more as a psychological horror/thriller compared to this.

I hear this as being part of the reason DEEN botched the Umineko anime so horribly, for what it's worth; while the off-model animation would always be there no matter what it was, the tone of everything feels like they thought it was a direct spiritual successor to Higurashi - which is to say, heavy on the horror and mental breakdowns - as opposed to its own beast.

oath2order
Oct 12, 2013

It's MAGIC. I don't have to explain shit!


KataraniSword posted:

I'm not at all convinced Higurashi was ever meant to even resemble a fair mystery, though; it reads much more as a psychological horror/thriller compared to this.

I hear this as being part of the reason DEEN botched the Umineko anime so horribly, for what it's worth; while the off-model animation would always be there no matter what it was, the tone of everything feels like they thought it was a direct spiritual successor to Higurashi - which is to say, heavy on the horror and mental breakdowns - as opposed to its own beast.


Deen pretty much changed the genre of higurashi from Mystery/suspense to Horror/Thriller, and came out with something halfway watchable. They tried the same thing with umineko. It did not go well.

Edit: To state it more plainly, the higurashi anime is absolutely not a fair and solvable mystery. The VN is...debatable.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

Most assume Bern was a good guy because of Higurashi.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011

When she said she was the cruelest, she wasn't kidding .

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

Also because Frederica Bernkastel exists - and is a witch - but is distinct from Umineko's Bernkastel. This last point was at one time unclear, which somewhat confused matters.

Fabulousvillain
May 2, 2015

Dr Pepper posted:

Most assume Bern was a good guy because of Higurashi.

Yeah this was my sentiment until Ange was killed in Episode 4 and Bern couldn't give less of a poo poo, then the thought of "Oh right, witches are supposed to be bad." occurred. Of course now she isn't even trying to be subtle about it, she's on another level when it comes to burning bridges. But I completely forgot the "most cruel witch" line from Episode 1.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011

Lord Koth posted:

Also because Frederica Bernkastel exists - and is a witch - but is distinct from Umineko's Bernkastel. This last point was at one time unclear, which somewhat confused matters.

No they're the same. (Higurashi) Bern is the Rika who unmade Takano, but wasn't able​ to enjoy the fruits of that victory herself.

Eleanore
Jun 18, 2013
Joining the jesus christ Bernkastel train :stare: I was on board with her being detached, bitter and overly pragmatic, but that is just taking glee in someone else's suffering.

Though thinking about it some more I guess it makes sense with the themes about how abuse leads to more abuse? If she is the same Bernkastel as from Higurashi, becoming some all powerful witch and being on the outside of the "gameboard" is probably her first chance to hit back without any repercussions.

ProfessorProf posted:

Both Beato and I fought with all we had trying to win. The game repeated several times because we were both giving it everything we could muster. Then, that one time. We confronted each other head on with all of our strength. And then, Beato acknowledged her loss. She said she wanted me to end this game... and entrusted everything to me.

Battler I like you and all, but if you thought that really looked like Beatrice fighting with all her strength in the last battle, George isn't the only one who needs glasses. It's kind of funny actually because during EP2 I couldn't wait to see Battler bring her down, but the whole ending to EP4 was just... sad and felt horribly unsatisfying.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!
I don't know from Higurashi, but attitudes towards her are going to be softer as long as she's aiding the protagonist, who we like. Now that their interests are no longer perfectly aligned, and she's acting like a giant jerk, it's easier not to like her.

Of course, she doesn't exist, so I personally don't care much one way or another.

lotus circle
Dec 25, 2012

Jushure Iburu
So don't worry
Since some of you don't know Higurashi, here are some black bar spoilers to give you context on Bern and Lambda both. Warning that this spoils basically all of Higurashi, and if you haven't checked it out I highly recommend it. The anime they made for it is actually pretty good in giving you all the info you need to know.

Basically Higurashi is about a small rural village called Hinamizawa, and a group of young friends who live there, in June of 1983. There's a new guy in town called Keiichi, and he makes friends with a group of girls. One of these girls is Rika Furude. The village worships a God called Oyashiro-sama, and every year have a festival in honor of their local deity. However there are rumors of a curse, as for the last four years one person has died and another has vanished after the festival takes place. Once more in 1983 this occurs, and Keiichi begins to suspect that his new friends may somehow be involved or are hiding something from him regarding the murders. Later on the village is destroyed through unknown means.

Now here is the twist: like Umineko, all the major characters murder one another and resets to the beginning of the scenario each story arc. Certain events repeat, but others are different. However throughout all these resets, Rika always remembers every single scenario that occurred. The village considers her to be the reincarnation of Oyashiro, but that's not quite the truth: she has a connection to Oyashiro, and the deity essentially imports her to another timeline every instance of failure to create an ideal ending. The ideal ending would of course be that no one dies and the culprit of the murders is caught.

So what does this mean? It means Rika Furude has relived watching all her friends die and her village destroyed over and over. In almost all these instances, she dies as well or commits suicide before it happens. It's never stated how many times she relives June 1983, but it's enough that her real personality is absolutely cold and nihilistic. By the time the game begins, Rika has already relived the same horrible tragedy for what may be thousands of years. She puts on a cute kid front to others, but that's because she has also lost any real hope in being able to stop what's happening. At this point she's reliving the same things not so much because she thinks things will be different, but because she's promised that a miracle will occur one day if she goes through hell enough.

The miracle occurs when Keiichi and some of the others actually start remembering the previous timelines. And together they find out the culprit is the local nurse, Miyo Takano. Takano herself resembles an older looking Lambda. In the TIPs that were translated, Lambda talked about a girl who wished with certainty to become a God - the implication is that girl was Takano.

Ok this has been a long winded post but short of it is this: Bernkastel is essentially the "remnants" of Rika Furude. Rika went on to live past all the misery and finally live her life, at long last free of June 1983. Yet after breaking through that endless summer, the pain and misery she left behind gained a form of its own: the Witch of Miracles, who defeated certainty with a single blessed fragment. Rika at times referred to herself, her true and real self, as "Bernkastel" and that's where the name comes from. My suggestion is to re-read the EP1-3 tea parties with this in mind and you'll kind of get a better sense of who these two are. Bernkastel is not Rika Furude, but the product of Rika's experiences.


There's a lot more I can say about Bernkastel, because she's easily one of my favorite characters in this franchise. But I think anything more would breach into legitimate Umineko spoilers, so I'll keep my mouth shut. Prof if there's something about this that you want me to omit, just let me know.

lotus circle fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Mar 24, 2017

lookw
Oct 7, 2014
*More Higurashi Spoilers*

I think Rika is stated to be over 100 years old (mentally speaking) by the end of Higurashi and the amount of time she has before she gets killed in each timeline gets progressively shorter. She repeated parts of her life up to that summer 1000's of times (since the length of each timeline varies).

You know Bernkastel isn't a good person by any extension in higurashi too (she does taunt the characters in that game as well). Though her cruelty always serves a purpose so as to allow the players in the witches game to win. She is genuinely a cruel person and has no trouble doing horrible things but...........she wants the game to end and will do almost anything to be entertained and win.

She isnt the players "friend" but she is an very tentative "ally" under very specific circumstances (who will have no trouble messing with you for kicks out of sheer boredom).

savixeon
Oct 22, 2016

ProfessorProf posted:

"...Do you want to acknowledge that a witch actually existed here and drank tea with Natsuhi? Weren't you trying to deny the existence of witches?"
"...Yes, during the game of the two day period from October 4th to October 5th, 1986. But I have no desire to question whether or not witches exist outside that game board. In the first place, it's impossible to deny the existence of witches because of the Devil's Proof. And, according to the rules of this game, saying something like that in red is a forbidden move that leads to a stalemate. You can't deny the existence of witches even with the red truth."

Could someone tell me if Battler's stance on witches always like this? Cause I'm wondering if this is a sign of Battler's character development or if I've been misinterpreting Battler's stance on witches since the beginning.

tiistai
Nov 1, 2012

Solo Melodica

savixeon posted:

Could someone tell me if Battler's stance on witches always like this? Cause I'm wondering if this is a sign of Battler's character development or if I've been misinterpreting Battler's stance on witches since the beginning.

Basically character development, although he hasn't ever been concerned with denying witches outside of the gameboard from what I remember. I mean, he's been interacting with them for a while now too and doesn't seem to question it.

savixeon
Oct 22, 2016

tiistai posted:

Basically character development, although he hasn't ever been concerned with denying witches outside of the gameboard from what I remember. I mean, he's been interacting with them for a while now too and doesn't seem to question it.

Yeah I guess. It just seems like his first stance was denying witches wholesale, not just on the gameboard. Maybe I just confused some of the other posters' stances with Battler's.

tiistai
Nov 1, 2012

Solo Melodica

savixeon posted:

Yeah I guess. It just seems like his first stance was denying witches wholesale, not just on the gameboard.

To be fair, it probably was to some extent, which is why I said this is basically character development in that sense. I suppose a part of why he never went out of his way to deny witches outside the gameboard is because he never really had a reason to.

In EP1's tea party half the time he's saying that witches don't exist and half the time he seems to be simply mad that the others stopped thinking:

"I don't accept the argument that the witch must've been behind everything just because I can't explain it. Does this mean that if you don't know how a light bulb shines, then magic is the cause? That's wrong, isn't it?! There's nothing that can't be explained without magic!! All of this about witches and magic is just abdication of thought! You just surrendered and gave up because you don't understand what happened! Isn't that right?!"

savixeon
Oct 22, 2016
Well at least now I don't think I have to worry that the Metaworld will turn out to have all been a metaphor if Battler wins in the end.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?


BGM: Novelette

"Ah, hello?! Sorry to keep you waiting! Battle~r! What'd ya think you're doing, not contacting us for six years?! How's it goiiiiiiiing?! Oh, really? How the hell'd I know?! Heh, shut up! Ahhahahahahahaha! So you'll be coming to this year's family conference? It's been six years!"



Spread out on the table were the blueprints and designs for a building, as well as documents related to expenditures and the like... so packed that even a tea cup would have gotten in the way. Officially, they were here to give Krauss a progress report, but in actuality, Krauss had called them all the way over to Rokkenjima so that Natsuhi could hear from them directly. This was because Natsuhi needed to hear someone other than her husband explain what condition their business was in.

...In short, even though another family conference without Kinzo was approaching, their business had not yet earned them any money. After telling the guests to wait for a short while, Krauss took Natsuhi out into the hall and once again summarized the situation...



"By now, it is certainly impossible for this catch to get away from us. To the contrary, it's growing so big that in one go, we'll be able to regain not just that power of attorney, but everything we've lost up to this point as well!"

Krauss spoke passionately. This made things seem all the more suspicious to Natsuhi, but this time, at least, she had to admit that everything really did seem to be going well. Certainly, this business Krauss boasted of had expanded in scope over the last year, and was promising an even greater payoff than had been anticipated in the beginning. Whether it proved to be a winner or not, investors had gathered around it, and they were rapidly gaining funds. This must be what they mean when they say that money summons money.

It was probably the greatest success of Krauss's life so far. No, it probably would become his greatest success yet. That point was where Natsuhi's misgivings lay. True, it was certain, and as Krauss had said, they wouldn't lose this catch now. However, the fish on the line had gotten too big.

"We'll definitely be able to reel this fish in. There's no need to rush. It's such a success that I wish I could show it to Father to be praised, if he were still alive...!"
"Yes, I know. However, I believe you made me a promise last year. You said you were sure you could manage something within a year...!"

A pained look rose to Krauss's face. They certainly had hooked a fat fish that guaranteed a great success. However, it would require an appropriate amount of time to reel it in... Natsuhi pressed Krauss, asking if there was any way for them to make money before this year's family conference, but Krauss kept saying that he needed just one more year...

Krauss planned to use this unprecedented success to catapult them into further challenges in the future. Because of this, he didn't want to do anything that would raise suspicions by making it seem like they were rushing to get money... Certainly, fortune tends to turn against people who take it for granted even in the slightest. Like by anxiously begging for money...

On many occasions before now, Krauss had gotten cold feet and sold businesses that would surely have brought in a profit had he just waited, and had, in effect, given away his winning picks. Natsuhi also knew this. She knew that guts were the thing her husband lacked most. That's why she was unable to refuse when Krauss said he wanted to prudently wait just one more year...



"You don't look too disappointed. Your life is fated to be chewed to bits by demons as soon as you leave this world."
"...My apologies, Father. For another year, you might not be granted peace."
"It is fine. Do not worry, Natsuhi. I am no longer the Ushiromiya family head. The ghost of the study should obediently follow the current head's commands. I've taken a look at Krauss's charts, and they aren't bad at all."
"Even from your perspective, Father?"
"...Hmmm. They're pretty good even from my perspective. Everyone is confident in victory and concentrating a significant quantity of magical power. As a result, that victory is growing ever deeper, gathering more and more people and magical power, and beginning to create gold. A perfect embodiment of alchemy's shortcuts."
"Hoh. If you've earned even the Golden Witch's approval, that is very reassuring. Be pleased, Natsuhi. This business of Krauss's will save the Ushiromiya family from its crisis without fail."
"Th, thank you very much. And, if you would once again..."
"Hmmm. We'll have to overcome one more family conference, won't we..."
"Yes. I think things went well last year, but I imagine some of the relatives will find it suspicious. I think this year's conference will be a critical period."
"During last year's family conference, you were correct to predict that the same thing might have to happen again someday."
"...Even for those who aren't witches, preparing for the worst case scenario is one of the basics for getting on in this world. So, what will you do this year?"
"Just like last year, I will see to it that a high concentration of the servants who know Father's secret are there on the day of the conference. Some of the relatives may already have noticed that Father isn't around. A careless act might actually put us in more danger of exposure."
"Hmmm. It is said that too much is as bad as too little. Then what will you do?"



"That would be suitable. A barricade is simple, and a final trump card."
"No matter how much the mansion is filled with the toxin, it will be impossible to deny Kinzo's existence as long as the closed room barrier remains around this room. I shall guarantee that myself. However, when making a barricade, it is inevitable that you will be surrounded."
"I know. Even so, I beg that both of you lend us your power just one more time..."
"I cannot disobey the orders of the new head. Furthermore, a ghost cannot disobey the orders of the living. If you tell me not to leave this room, then I will obey."
"Thank you very much..."
"I don't like it. If you want me to lend you my power, I won't listen to a mere request."
"Yes. You are the family alchemist. So, I won't ask you to help. I order you to help. We are relying on your magic alone. Use that power to create an illusion of Father just one more time."
"Very well. I hear and obey. I find your dignity quite pleasing."



BGM: Voiceless

"...I see. So we've made it to this year's family conference. Grandfather was in a bad mood, so he shut himself in his study and didn't appear in front of anyone."
"..."

Natsuhi spoke boldly about how she would somehow overcome this year's crisis and protect the Ushiromiya family honor until the end, while Kinzo praised her, saying that it looked promising. Beato also praised her, saying that Natsuhi's dignity was even more fitting for the family head than Krauss's. However, right now, the true number of people in this room was...

At the same time I thought that... no, just because I thought that, Beato grabbed her chest and moaned.

"...Don't worry. We're still outside the game board. So, I won't deny you or Grandfather over there."
"..."

I put my hand on Beato's as she tried to hold back the pain deep inside her chest...

I already told Bernkastel. Just the two day period of the 1986 family conference is enough to deny the Illusion of the Witch.





My hand that was touching her let off a faint blue light, which seeped into her chest. That light tenderly wrapped itself around the splinters in Beato's chest...

"...And, I also can't deny the existence of the Beatrice in this place. The number of people on this island outside the game board... in other words, before October 4th, 1986, has not been proclaimed in red. Therefore, there's nothing strange about Beatrice existing here."
"...ah."

Beato's expression softened slightly. My blue light... slowly started to melt the red splinters that denied the Illusion of the Witch...

"..."

Beato still wore the same sad expression, but she lifted her face... and looked me right in the eye. Even though she was silent, her eyes told me that the pain had gone away. The feelings that showed in her eyes were gratitude for taking the pain away, and appreciation... or was it surprise? For leaving even a tiny bit of leeway for witches to exist.

Unable to look directly at those pure eyes of hers, I automatically averted my gaze.



"..."
"..."

Beato hung her head. I was still facing away from her. However, we waited wordlessly for a while, my hand still on hers...

...By now, no one would believe this woman with sad eyes... was the same person as that prideful Beato. So, I asked once more. Even though I said it aloud, it wasn't a question to her. I was asking myself.



"..."
"That's right. Even though this is Lambda's game, I have to find you here. I have to find what you thought... and what you were trying to do."

Very soon, this game will also reach October 4th, 1986. The 5th game will finally begin. And this time, I'll reach the end. The end of that journey.

"...I'm not worried about the obvious stuff, like murders and tricks. What did you, the Golden Witch Beatrice, think, and why did you do what you did? What were you hoping for? That's what I'm gonna find out."

That's right. I already know how I can reach the end of that journey. And it's been shown since the very beginning.



"..."
"And this time, I'll understand you. And I'll pick my way to your heart. I won't let you feel pain. Don't worry. I won't let those witches make you their toy anymore."
"...Nn..."

Beato looked up at me again... and gave a small nod. That's right. The position of Game Master might have been snatched up by Lambdadelta. However, as long as I continue this contest with the intent of fighting against Beato, our fight will continue no matter who controls the game board.

Very soon, the curtain will rise on our game...



BGM: Sukashiyuri

"Y, yes. I understand."
"...I'm a little doubtful that the same trick will work twice."
"Madam shares your concerns. Because of that, it was decided that this year, he will not leave the study even once."
"In other words, we'll make it seem like he's shut away in the study the whole time...?"
"...Yes. And the only ones allowed to enter the study are the three of us, the servants permitted to wear the One-winged Eagle."
"...Which means that the three of us will have to perpetuate the lie about the Master..."
"Correct. The relatives will probably question you about the Master's health and mood. Make sure you answer without hesitation, and see to it that nothing is seen as suspicious."
"...Y, yes. I understand."
"I'm sure you'll screw up right away, Nee-san. Maybe it's better to say you have a cold or something so that you can skip that day."
"Th, that's mean..."

Kanon wasn't just making fun of her. He only wanted to release Shannon from the burden of working on this most serious of days.

"Genji-sama. Is it really necessary for Shannon to work that day? We can manage things well enough without her."
"That I cannot do. Madam gave strict orders that the three of us be scheduled to work on that day."
"Yes... I am prepared to perform my duties successfully."
"Don't screw up."
"I won't."

Shannon grew sullen, and Kanon shrugged. Then Genji told them that they weren't taking this seriously enough.

"...Shannon. Kanon. The Master we serve has already passed away. However, until he has truly passed on, we will continue to serve."
"...That study is not empty. The Master is still there, hard at work on his usual research. Make sure you take that to heart."
""Yes, Genji-sama.""



BGM: Dead Angle

"Settle down... It's only a possibility. It's well known that Takeda Shingen said in his will that his death was to be kept secret for three years. Know about that?"
"...Is that how it went? My Japanese history isn't so great."
"At the time, Takeda was in the middle of a war with Oda and Tokugawa. If his death had become known at a time like that, it would probably have had a negative effect on the war. 'Cause of this, he left a will sayin' that his death should be kept hidden for three years. Hideyoshi did the same thing, right? He completely suppressed information about the death of his master, Oda Nobunaga, so that the enemy wouldn't find out, quickly made peace with Mouri, and defeated Akechi in the Battle of Yamazaki."
"On the other hand, Shibata Katsuie failed at this. The enemy, Uesugi, learned of Nobuyuki's death, so Shibata had to deal with an unexpected counterattack and was slowed down. That's why, later on, he suffered a great loss against Hideyoshi in the fight for the succession."

Hideyoshi, who had a strong fascination with the commanders of the Sengoku period, would always show off his knowledge whenever he got the chance. Wincing slightly, Eva made him get back to his point.

"...In short, the whole time since last year's family conference, I've felt as though something was strange."
"You mean the time when Rudolf and I were talking about the inheritance and Father overheard us from the hall..."
"That's just it. Natsuhi-san and the servants kept saying Father was here or there and that he seemed to be in a bad mood, but not a single one of us relatives saw Father, right?"
"If what you're thinking is right... What does that mean?! Does it mean that Nii-san is trying to get all of the inheritance for himself?!"
"Of course, hiding someone's death is a very dangerous thing to do. And all things considered, I'm not sure Krauss-san would be willing to do it just to have the inheritance to himself. However, it is possible."
"...W, well, it's true that Nii-san has always been greedy. He always used to take things that were meant for all of the siblings and keep them all for himself..."
"Krauss-san is supposedly the most affluent of the siblings. For Krauss-san to scheme to keep the inheritance all to himself to the point of accepting the risk of hiding Father's death... Sounds a little unbelievable to me. Even so, last year's family conference was just so strange that it makes me wonder."
"..."

Eva and the others were painfully aware of how reckless it would be to try and see Kinzo when he was in a bad mood. So, during last year's family conference, the whole time after they heard about Kinzo getting into a terrible mood, they never actively tried to contact him. That's why, to this very day, they hadn't found it suspicious that Kinzo hadn't shown himself once...

"...It definitely is something we should suspect... But I wonder if Nii-san really would do something as appalling as hiding Father's death... For all his pride, that man has a coward's side to him. Would he really make such a once-in-a-lifetime bet...?"
"In any event, it'd probably be a good idea to make sure we get a chance to meet with Father during this year's conference."



BGM: None

"In that case, it would be very difficult to borrow money from Krauss-san."
"Yeah. I could almost cry."
"...So, would being in financial distress give Krauss-san some kind of weakness?"
"A weakness? Well, investors tend to have a keen eye. If they were to hear that Krauss is actually low on funds, none would want to have anything to do with him."
"I guess trust is the most important part of that business. "

Kyrie smiled thinly. Rudolf was taken aback by that smile... He had figured that his plan, which involved raising money to get him out of his current mess by borrowing from the affluent Krauss, would all come to nothing now that they knew Krauss himself was in financial trouble...

"...Krauss-san's trustworthiness might have been necessary in his businesses in the past, but it isn't something we need now."



BGM: Fishy Aroma

"I wouldn't want to. Who would want to stir up something like that between blood siblings? *giggle*giggle*."

Rudolf felt a shiver go up his spine at Kyrie's cold smile... At times, Kyrie was able to throw away all compassion and think in an extremely ruthless manner. When he felt that, Rudolf became certain that he'd never like to have her as his enemy...

"I wouldn't want to threaten Onii-san if there were any other way to get money."
"...If there were another way, we wouldn't be worrying."
"Don't you think worrying about a problem when you have no other options is a bit pathetic?"
"..."

Rudolf stopped talking, folded his arms, and lowered his gaze. Some of the terror Rudolf had felt for Krauss due to his violence when they were young still remained. And now, he would threaten Krauss. That meant Rudolf would also have to fight against his childhood trauma. So to give her husband a little push, Kyrie smiled reassuringly, and perhaps coldly.

"I never like to work based on trust. It takes hard work to build up trust, but only an instant to lose it. There's no less profitable investment."
"Y, you're right. All the trust in the world isn't worth a good banknote."
"Even though Krauss-san has been taking huge losses, he should be able to prepare enough money to buy us some time. Of course, that would probably force him to exchange all the trust he's built up for cash to raise money."
"...That, wouldn't turn out well..."
"We'll have to prepare sufficiently. We haven't been given any time or room for failure. Isn't that right?"
"Among my Kyoto friends, there are a few people who are very good at investigating that sort of thing. I'd rather not be in the debt of these people, but do you want to try meeting them? They don't give receipts, but I'm sure they'll dig up something that makes them worth the investment."



BGM: Witch in Gold (cembalo)

Rosa was talking to Rudolf over the phone. Rosa rarely received calls from her older siblings, so she braced herself for something serious.

"Well, truth is... I want to have a little talk about the next family conference, without Aniki."
"...Between you, me, and Eva nee-san? Sounds like a headache."
"I can't talk about the details over the phone, but you might find that it's worth listening to."
"Something good?"
"Of course. Aneki is all for it."
"Nee-san is...?"
"We just want your approval. We aren't going to ask you for money or anything like that. The most important thing is that the three of us stick together. Got it?"

Rosa let out a sigh. She did so because, in the past, when Rudolf and Eva got into a fight with Krauss, they always used to talk to her like this right before dragging her into it...



"Yep. The three of us will each grab 200 million out of this. If things go well, we might be able to squeeze out more. That should be enough to handle your debt, right?"
"...And when will we be grabbing this by?"
"Of course, it'll be within a year. I need it. Aneki needs it. And you need it too, Rosa. All three of our problems'll be settled."
"So, its chances of success are good enough that Nee-san's agreed to it?"
"Now do you wanna hear? I know it's a bit sudden, but let's meet next Sunday, 19:00, at that coffee shop you like in Ginza. That's the only time Aneki's schedule and mine match. Any problems?"
"If it could bring me 200 million, I'll have no choice but to listen. Then let's meet at 7:00 PM next Sunday at Leopold's."
"And Maria-chan. You can bring her too if you want."
"Don't talk about money in front of that child!"

She set the receiver down with a *clunk*, a little violently. Apparently, either Eva or Rudolf had gotten ahold of one of Krauss's weak points. They would probably threaten him with that at the next family conference and force him to pay money. Even before hearing the details, she knew full well that it could be nothing good. But even so, this might be her once-in-a-lifetime chance to pay back her large debts.

Rosa took a notebook out of her handbag and started to fill in the day she would be meeting with Rudolf and Eva. Then she frowned and smacked herself hard in the forehead.



Maria was in her room, playing around excitedly with Sakutarou and the others. It was because she was going to be taken to the amusement park that had just been created, Delsney Land, the following Sunday...

Looking at the clock, Rosa saw that it was just past 9:00 at night. Maria was breaking the lights out rule. After covering her face and agonizing for a while, Rosa stood up and stomped over to Maria's room. The room was almost certainly a mess as well. At least tonight, that was convenient.

As she stood outside the door to Maria's room, listening to the happy laughter seeping through, Rosa's face twisted in anguish once again, and she looked at the floor. Then, when she raised her head again, her brow was furrowed, and her face had become an ugly expression of anger...



BGM: None

The weekend forecast had said that there was a high likelihood of a tropical cyclone growing into a large typhoon. If unhappy premonitions tend to be right... This year's family conference will probably take place in absolutely horrible weather.

No, I wish that a typhoon large enough to stop boat travel to the island would seal Rokkenjima away forever. If that happened, I'd be able to hide Kinzo's death as long as I wanted...

"If only, the typhoon would keep them at bay forever."

Natsuhi let out a deep sigh. Just doing that made her headache throb... As the day of the family conference approached, the intensity of her headache just kept on increasing.

At that time, the phone rang. Natsuhi turned the TV off and picked up the receiver...

"...Hello?"
"I apologize for calling during your rest. It is Genji."
"Is something the matter...?"



BGM: Lure

"They aren't saying their name...?"
"Yes. The person in question said you would know when you spoke with them... What should be done? It might be a prank."
"What did they sound like?"
"I believe it was a young man. Any idea who it might be...?"
"A young, man?"

Natsuhi didn't have a clue who that might be. In the first place, there was no one amongst her acquaintances who would do something as rude as refusing to state their name. And on top of that... a young... man...?

As a wife, she must avoid any contact that might be considered suspicious with anyone other than her husband, much less a young man. As soon as she thought this, the phone call suddenly seemed like something dirty. But at the same time, she was more interested than ever in what this person wanted to tell her. Could it be that there was some kind of trouble related to Krauss's business? What if there was some particular reason that they needed to talk to Krauss's wife instead of Krauss directly...?

"..."

No matter what it is, it's my duty as a wife to listen and report to Krauss. If it's some strange kind of threat, I just have to firmly refuse and inform Krauss that I received such a phone call. If it's just irritating, then I just have to tell Genji to never again send me a call if the caller doesn't state their name. As Natsuhi thought this, she told Genji, who was offering to hang up after all, to connect her to this person, and she set the receiver down.

After a short while, the phone rang again...



:siren:Video: The Phone Call:siren:

This wasn't the internal line. It was the external phone line, which Genji had redirected to her. So it should already have been connected directly with the mysterious man. However, the person on the other end didn't respond to her.

...Not liking this at all, Natsuhi spoke one more time, sounding displeased.

"Hello? Who is it? Tell me your name...!"
"..."

She heard something that sounded like a sigh. She automatically gulped. After remaining silent for a little longer, the man finally answered...



BGM: Play

That was the first time the man had spoken.

"...Just how long has it been? How many years, I wonder."
"What are you talking about? Who are you...?!"

The voice certainly did sound like that of a young man. But it's a bit hard to figure out much about a person just by their voice over the phone... It sounded like a young man, but it might actually be a middle school-aged boy or an adult man whose voice still hadn't deepened. No wait, it might be too soon even to be sure that this is a male.

However, the one thing was certain... Though this person spoke to Natsuhi in such a familiar and casual manner, Natsuhi had absolutely no clue who it was...

"...It'd be easy for me to tell you my name. But that would make me very sad."
"I don't know what you're talking about. Who are you? And what business do you have with me?! If you can't tell me that, I'm not interested! I'm hanging up...!"
"What I want, is for you to remember."
"And what is it that you're telling me to remember? I don't know you, so I have nothing to remember!"



:siren:BGM: Deep Blue Jeer:siren:

"What did you say...?! What are you talking about?!"
"Don't say things that'll make me so sad, Mother."

That unsettling word thrust itself mercilessly into the depths of Natsuhi's heart and started churning it about... In her entire life, Natsuhi had never once been told something so unsettling. In her bewilderment, Natsuhi felt her heart beat so loudly that it felt like it would explode.

"I, I, I don't remember someone like you ever calling me Mother! I don't know what you're thinking, but I'm hanging up...!!"



Natsuhi's mind went blank... And from beyond the sound of the wind howling outside the window, she most certainly heard the roar of the sea from that day...

"...So, you actually do remember, don't you...?"
"I, I told you I don't know what you're talking about!! N, n, never call here again!"
"I haven't forgotten how you treated me 19 years ago... To curse you, I still call you Mother despite that, no, because of that. It'll be the family conference very soon, won't it? I am your son, Mother."





Breathing so hard her shoulders heaved, Natsuhi slammed the receiver down and hung up... Then she hit the phone violently, knocking the receiver off. So that no more calls would come through it...

I can hear the roar of the sea... The voice I can hear from beyond the howling wind is certainly... aaah, even if I cover my ears, even if I cover my ears, the headache won't...

Completely pale, Natsuhi kept shivering as though cold...



"Yes, I'm here. I'm anywhere you want me to be, Bern."
"...Then crawl into the cupboard under the kitchen floor. Or in a jar of rice-bran paste, if you want."
"Ooh, you're gonna dip me in bean paste and bite me? But in that case, I wish you'd dip me in hone~y. In return, I'll cook you in sugar water."
"...At least make it sweet soy sauce with sweet sake."
"So what's up? You gonna make me repeat something?"
"...That's right. Is Natsuhi's phone conversation here a fact?"

Lambdadelta grinned unpleasantly, as though sizing Bernkastel up. She was probably trying to tease Bern for making that demand.

"...You refuse to repeat it?"
"Well now... Should I refuse, or should I respond... As the Game Master, that's up to me to decide, and I get to make that decision any time I want."
"...Unless I state it in the blue text, you aren't obligated to respond."
"That's it! *giggle*giggle*. Now the best you can do is wonder about Natsuhi's secret of 19 years ago, right?! Make sure you're sitting on the edge of your seat, alright? *giggle*giggle*."

Of course, this fishy telephone call happened before October 4th, 1986. This is still before the start time of the game. So, there's basically no need to question whether it's true or false.



"Ehheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh... So, you'll leave without turning the card over."
"Ouch, wh, what?!"
"...<Direct Attack>."

After suddenly being conked on the head, Lambdadelta was bewildered. But perhaps this incomprehensible exchange was funny to her... because she quickly went back to giggling.

"...Are you done preparing the game board now?"
"Yeah, that's right. Now I'll finally move on to the game. On to October 4th, 1986...!"
"...I wonder what number October 4th, 1986 this is. So, the Endless Witch. Beatrice. She really is a frightening child."
"Is your side going to do anything, Bern?"
"...Nope. If you've refused to repeat what I asked, then I'm done."



resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Battler, the literal stupidest man on earth. Why are you even here, Battler, why did you come back to this place so you could fuck literally everything up?

W...what the gently caress is this?

No, seriously, what the gently caress? Is this... is this a new character, this late in the game, alluding to yet another secret thing that happened in the past in 1967, the year of the Fallen Beatrice? The rest of the update was known quantities- blah blah Krauss is being strung along and they need more time, blah blah lovely siblings are conspiring to blackmail him, blah blah Rosa's a terrible mother, blah blah Battler's coming, yay... and then whack with a heretofore unknown secret son out for revenge. What the hell did Natsuhi do that day? Did she really have a secret child even Krauss didn't know about? Is this one of Kyrie's criminal pals who dug something up (or thought they did) and is making a move? I'd say this was a red herring that LD threw in to stir poo poo up, but I thought she wasn't allowed to use pieces and actions that are beyond the scope of what Beato would actually allow on the game board... and Natsuhi is sure acting like she does know what the Secret Voice is talking about, so... :psyduck:

What the loving gently caress is going on here?

tiistai
Nov 1, 2012

Solo Melodica

The Chiru soundtrack is very good!

RedMagus
Nov 16, 2005

Male....Female...what does it matter? Power is beautiful, and I've got the power!
Grimey Drawer
I guess the next question is to establish who would be about nineteen? Kanon? Battler?

To quote Futurama: "that just raises more questions!"

savixeon
Oct 22, 2016

RedMagus posted:

I guess the next question is to establish who would be about nineteen? Kanon? Battler?

To quote Futurama: "that just raises more questions!"

I don't think its anyone who has been to the family conference in the past 19 years, since the caller mentioned that they would come to the family conference after 19 years.

grandalt
Feb 26, 2013

I didn't fight through two wars to rule
I fought for the future of the world

And the right to have hot tea whenever I wanted
Hehe, I was waiting for that phone call. More truth is coming to light now.

bman in 2288
Apr 21, 2010

grandalt posted:

Hehe, I was waiting for that phone call. More truth is coming to light now.

Wait, maybe the sin that Battler forgot about involves this new guy, somehow?

EagerSleeper
Feb 3, 2010

by R. Guyovich
I don't think having a surprise son would be possible for Natsuhi. She would have nine whole months to find out that one was coming.

Fabulousvillain
May 2, 2015
I really wish I didn't have to say it, but it sounds like this phone call is acknowledging that maybe Rudolf has pulled off an Uther Pendragon stunt. If that's actually true then that means Battler and Jessica might actually be... this is feeling more like Camelot than I ever wanted, but I'm sure Kinzo is a fan of it loving western stories and hating his family.

Qrr
Aug 14, 2015


I'm amused that lambdadelta is a Magic: the gathering player. So that's what witches mean whenever they say magic is real! And wizards are real, too, but only the ones that live by the coast.


I'm kind of inclined to believe that that conversation is a red herring. Remember this is all leading up to Bern piece accusing Natsuhi of being the murderer. Adding a new never before seen piece to the board at this point, one with no clear relation to anything except Natsuhi, would be really weird.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Technically, if you listen to the Japanese dialogue, she says "Start, Cleanup, Draw", which doesn't quite match Japanese M:TG terminology or Yugioh terminology, so either it's a generic card games reference or a reference to a card game I don't know about.

Bliss Authority
Jul 6, 2011

I'm not saying it was witches

but it was witches

Obviously, she's playing Red Wins. Joke's on her, Battler plays Blue Control.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

ProfessorProf posted:

Technically, if you listen to the Japanese dialogue, she says "Start, Cleanup, Draw", which doesn't quite match Japanese M:TG terminology or Yugioh terminology, so either it's a generic card games reference or a reference to a card game I don't know about.

Well, it's all accurate M:tG terms, just in the wrong order - Cleanup isn't the Upkeep phase, it's the Ending phase :pseudo:

It's entirely possible to have flubbed it if you were trying to use English M:tG terminology but also mixed up the phases. Sort of like how "THE WORLD IS A gently caress" is technically coherent English, just nonsensical in being such.

BurningStone
Jun 3, 2011
Well, well, well. Of the people we know, the only male the right age would be Battler, unless you want to add some years to Kanon (or subtract them from George, I suppose). Jessica is the right age, too, of course, but is openly Natsuhi's daughter. Shannon is both the wrong gender and the wrong age.

Battler is looking rather suspicious right now, with the previous revelation that he was wrong about who his mother is. In the first game, when we first meet everybody, they're all saying "Battler, is that really you?" So... maybe it isn't.

There are serious problems with that theory, of course. The Battler we've been following around remembers past times at the mansion and playing with his cousins, so if he's an imposter you'd have to explain that. The caller says Natsuhi is his mother, and doesn't seem at all uncertain about it. She would have had a heck of a time hiding a pregnancy, especially as she also had to give birth to Jessica at almost the same time. No doubt Kinzo would have wanted a male heir, so she (and her husband) wouldn't have any motivation for trying to swap a boy for Jessica.

So "mother" would have to be not literal, but figurative or even sarcastic. We know there's a gap in the family tree: Kyrie's and Rudolf's child, who was supposed to have died. Could such a child have a reason to sarcastically call Natsuhi "mother?" It's hard to see; perhaps if she had forced, or tried to force, an abortion. Shannon or Kanon fit such a child better: an illegitimate child given to the family supported orphanage - but then we don't have a connection to Natsuhi.

Could the caller be Kanon? Again, seems unlikely. We know he's on the island, and you'd have to think Natsuhi and Genji know his voice well. His real name and parentage are unknown, and we've had our attention called to that, which makes him a good surprise heir, but this would be an odd way to introduce that twist.

But, I don't like the idea of a new character either. Introducing a critical character very late is a bad mystery trick (so much so, I think it breaks one of Knox's rules).

It's possible this isn't a real person, but somebody who knows a secret and is using a false voice to hide their identity. In which case it could be... anybody? Too many to try to narrow down, at least.

Jumping topics, has Jessica really lived on an island with her dead grandfather for more than a year and not figured things out? She doesn't seem tight lipped enough to stay silent about a conspiracy for that long. Of course, Kumasawa complained about not getting an audience with Kizno any more, and if anybody was going to sniff his death out, it would have to be her. One problem I have is spotting something like this and thinking "Oh, the authored made a mistake," and then finding out that it was supposed to be a clue.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!

ProfessorProf posted:

Technically, if you listen to the Japanese dialogue, she says "Start, Cleanup, Draw", which doesn't quite match Japanese M:TG terminology or Yugioh terminology, so either it's a generic card games reference or a reference to a card game I don't know about.

Given that it immediately followed <Direct Attack>, I'm guessing it's supposed to be Yugioh.

resurgam40 posted:

What the loving gently caress is going on here?

Quite.

Let's see.

ProfessorProf posted:

"...It'd be easy for me to tell you my name. But that would make me very sad."
"I don't know what you're talking about. Who are you? And what business do you have with me?! If you can't tell me that, I'm not interested! I'm hanging up...!"
"What I want, is for you to remember."
"And what is it that you're telling me to remember? I don't know you, so I have nothing to remember!"

What he wants is for Natsuhi to remember. What Beatrice wants is for Battler to remember. Is there a connection? Are these murders being committed by people who are angry about being forgotten?

ProfessorProf posted:

Natsuhi's mind went blank... And from beyond the sound of the wind howling outside the window, she most certainly heard the roar of the sea from that day...

I guess she tried to drown her baby? Or maybe it was an accident, but if that's the case, why wouldn't whoever saved him have brought him back to her?

This must certainly be a character we already know. I think we're being teased that it might be Battler given the stuff in the last episode, but I think it's more likely to be Kanon. It would explain why he's so bitter and angry. It would also make his attraction to Jessica SUPER loving WEIRD, although maybe that's why he doesn't want to give in to it.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?

idonotlikepeas posted:

It would also make his attraction to Jessica SUPER loving WEIRD

It's already that.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!
A fair point.

Eleanore
Jun 18, 2013
I need to sleep on it but What The gently caress, that phone call was definitely voiced by Daisuke Ono aka Battler's VA. So did Rudolf sleep with Natsuhi and there was a switch with Asumu's baby/toddler/child? no wait there is still a year apart... Or is this a case of the voice casting agency being lazy and just reusing Daisuke Ono for a one time thing?

More thoughts incoming after I get a nights rest.

(PS if Koyasu Takehito or Mitsuki Saiga has voiced any character we haven't got a video of, I'll be sad.)

tiistai
Nov 1, 2012

Solo Melodica

Eleanore posted:

I need to sleep on it but What The gently caress, that phone call was definitely voiced by Daisuke Ono aka Battler's VA. So did Rudolf sleep with Natsuhi and there was a switch with Asumu's baby/toddler/child? no wait there is still a year apart... Or is this a case of the voice casting agency being lazy and just reusing Daisuke Ono for a one time thing?

The only comment I'd like to make about this is just a reminder that the original release of Umineko didn't have voice acting.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Eleanore posted:

I need to sleep on it but What The gently caress, that phone call was definitely voiced by Daisuke Ono aka Battler's VA. So did Rudolf sleep with Natsuhi and there was a switch with Asumu's baby/toddler/child? no wait there is still a year apart... Or is this a case of the voice casting agency being lazy and just reusing Daisuke Ono for a one time thing?

More thoughts incoming after I get a nights rest.

(PS if Koyasu Takehito or Mitsuki Saiga has voiced any character we haven't got a video of, I'll be sad.)

Well despite the clearly battler voice that may just be to make it mysterious. According to Natsuhi the voice sounded young and she could not rule out that it may have be a girls voice.

Given the theme that played was said to belong to a new character it may be them.

Fabulousvillain
May 2, 2015
Also Bern already tried confirming whether or no that phone call actually happened in red text just to be refused the confirmation. Meaning it could be all bullshit to try and throw a wrench into the game which is unlikely, or could've happened but with a few different details like who's voice was on the other side cause or exactly what they were talking about.

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Skylight
Nov 25, 2011

DIE TO THE DEATH!
SENTANCE TO DEATH!
GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH!


resurgam40 posted:

W...what the gently caress is this?

No, seriously, what the gently caress? Is this... is this a new character, this late in the game

I seriously doubt Knox's rules were mentioned just for funsies back there. A quick trip back to the post listing them (thanks, idonotlikepeas!) makes me think that if Knox's First hasn't been violated, then we already know the jerk who crank called Natsuhi.

e: Assuming that the crank caller is also the criminal, anyway. If they're not the criminal and are just trolling, then my theory holds no water and I am incompetent.

Skylight fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Mar 25, 2017

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