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Sjs00
Jun 29, 2013

Yeah Baby Yeah !

We're all slaves, when you think about it

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Savy Saracen salad
Oct 15, 2013


Slave armies of the Middle East where the elite of the elites, and seized control of several dynasties and sultanates across the Middle east and central Asia.
Warrior slaves like the Mameluke where a very expensive investment, not cheap cannon fodder thrown into battle. The slaves where bought as boys and taught how to fight on horseback and without, taught archery and horse archery, how to read and write and they often memorized the quran. They where taught first aid, alchemy and math. They where not riffraff fodder.

Ichabod Tane
Oct 30, 2005

A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.


https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4


Indian Chela slave-soldiers were treated shittily as the Mughals were primarily a cavalry army. The infantry, while not slaves, were incredibly I'll equipped so I can't imagine how badly treated the Chela were.

Moonshine Rhyme
Mar 26, 2010

Hate Hate Hate Hate Hate

TheAnomaly posted:

Oh please, tell me about your historical experiences with slave armies being whipped into combat.

The description for how slave armies work is not "dark" it's non-functional and unlike any of the actual recorded slave armies. It's slaves as peasant levies, only those were a primarily western European thing. The Slave Armies of the middle east were professional, paid well, and often better armed than any of the other armies of the middle east as they were expected to fight anyone at any time whereas contemporary Islamic armies weren't allowed to fight other Muslims, or on certain days or in certain places/conditions. The "slave armies" they claim to model didn't remotely function they way the game is making them function, so there is absolutely no reason to allow for this as dark historic roleplay.

Finally, slavery is in no way shape or form unique to America. Slavery was all over North Africa, the Middle East, and Europe. Slavery wasn't banned in the Ottoman Empire (turkey) fully until 1964, although the slave trade was banned in 1906. European powers agreed to end slavery a tiny bit earlier, in a treaty in 1890, with a handful of European nations agreeing to end slavery in their countries (but not their empires, looking at you England and France) in 1830. In none of these places will you find armies of ill trained slaves whipped into a frenzy and sent into battle.

Finally, it paints slavery as entirely a middle eastern thing - which is ridiculous. The Slave Trade was powerful in Europe throughout most of history as well, including Germany, just often ignored because it didn't become obscene until the colonial period - but it very much happened during the period they are supposedly modelling.

Exhibit a: https://youtu.be/YdXQJS3Yv0Y

Wizard Styles
Aug 6, 2014

level 15 disillusionist


Quick reminder that Casey Hollingshead, the head and possibly only writer for Battle Brothers was or is active on RPG Codex, where he posted gems like these:



Also, he has a Twitter where he has weighed in on current events:

https://twitter.com/Casey_notCasey/status/1270567871194726400?s=20

This is his only tweet related to Black Lives Matter in any way.

Avasculous
Aug 30, 2008


Well, in fairness he also notes in one of those posts that:

quote:

Black women are the best at sex and it's not even a close competition. I will continue to 'mix' it up until one of their boyfriends jacks me with a pipe or some other aspect of this reality changes.

What a cool dude.

Savy Saracen salad
Oct 15, 2013


You are free to boycott the game if you like, I personally cannot wait for it. its is I am excited they are adding a middle eastern setting to the south, it is going to make the northern raiders origins very interesting.

Jay Rust
Sep 27, 2011



Wizard Styles posted:

Quick reminder that Casey Hollingshead, the head and possibly only writer for Battle Brothers was or is active on RPG Codex, where he posted gems like these:



Also, he has a Twitter where he has weighed in on current events:

https://twitter.com/Casey_notCasey/status/1270567871194726400?s=20

This is his only tweet related to Black Lives Matter in any way.

I always kind of suspected the writer(s) of the game might lean this direction, just from the tone of the writing itself. I wonít be buying this expansion.

ScottyJSno
Aug 16, 2010


The BLM movement is international. Statues of slavers and mass murderers are being torn down on almost every continent. Unless you live in China or North Korea or some other country that has an iron grip on the media, you should have heard of it. Hell even then the state media is probably using it to dunk on the USA and Trump.

That being said... The slaves in the game sound more like one of the later books in the Game of Thrones series then real life.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


It'd be nice if another merc game existed other than this and Battle Tech, but at least they gave a big middle finger to people who were angry about pronouns.

Ichabod Tane
Oct 30, 2005

A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.


https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4


Wizard Styles posted:

Quick reminder that Casey Hollingshead, the head and possibly only writer for Battle Brothers was or is active on RPG Codex, where he posted gems like these:



Also, he has a Twitter where he has weighed in on current events:

https://twitter.com/Casey_notCasey/status/1270567871194726400?s=20

This is his only tweet related to Black Lives Matter in any way.

Arrrrghhh, of course.

Benagain
Oct 10, 2007

I WILL DERAIL ANY THREAD TO DEFEND PEOPLE WHO CHEAT ON THEIR SPOUSES BECAUSE I THINK THEY CAN DO NO WRONG. DO NOT LISTEN TO ME. I AM FUCKING STUPID.


Fun Shoe

Like c'mon. "You finish throttling the last guard to death with your chains. Stupid of them to get drunk with a gladiator in their care. You and the other five are free now, you guess, but you've got maybe three complete sets of clothing, a bunch of improvised weapons, and prominent slave brands. Might as well head north and see how long you can last..."

like it's right there! Why wouldn't you have it!

Voyager I
Jun 29, 2012

This is how your posting feels.


I'm trying to imagine the brain of a person who sees a system of brutal repression and immediately relates to the one holding the whip.

That's apparently what they were assuming everyone would feel.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


I feel like the "loosely based on historical armies" actually makes it more offensive, just say that it's pure fantasy that has no bearing on reality. It sounds interesting from a gameplay perspective and it's not like the game doesn't already let you do tons of morally reprehensible poo poo.

If they included an "escaped slaves" start (which would I guess functionally be a southern version of the northern raiders start) it would be a nice way of showing that the're not weird authoritarians and/or racists (I mean that guy does appear to be very adjacent to a lot of bad opinions so uh not holding my breath)

BoneMonkey
Jul 25, 2008

I am happy for you.



Veryslightlymad posted:

It'd be nice if another merc game existed other than this and Battle Tech, but at least they gave a big middle finger to people who were angry about pronouns.

I'm working on it.

torsoboy
Sep 9, 2001

lesbian armada overlord

I think I would be fine without the slavery bit. It might be historical but I don't really need it in my game. I guess I'll figure out what to really think about the game when I see how they've implemented it. Wartime rape is also very historical yet I don't feel like it belongs in a game that I'd play.

quote:

The BLM movement is international. Statues of slavers and mass murderers are being torn down on almost every continent. Unless you live in China or North Korea or some other country that has an iron grip on the media, you should have heard of it. Hell even then the state media is probably using it to dunk on the USA and Trump.

Sure, the BLM movement is international but with regards to race related police brutality here in the Netherlands all you'll get from people here is a big shrug.

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003



torsoboy posted:

Wartime rape is also very historical yet I don't feel like it belongs in a game that I'd play.

Iím pretty sure it exists in this game and was discussed a few pages ago.

Savy Saracen salad
Oct 15, 2013


You can butcher and slaughter villages and engage in other ISIS level activities yet we draw the line at faux slavery. If you are that disturbed by a video game you are better off at doing something else more productive with your free time.

Ichabod Tane
Oct 30, 2005

A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.


https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4


Savy Saracen salad posted:

You can butcher and slaughter villages and engage in other ISIS level activities yet we draw the line at faux slavery. If you are that disturbed by a video game you are better off at doing something else more productive with your free time.

You big, stupid idiot.

lenoon
Jan 7, 2010



Glenn Quebec posted:

You big, stupid idiot.

This is truth

TheAnomaly
Feb 20, 2003


Savy Saracen salad posted:

You can butcher and slaughter villages and engage in other ISIS level activities yet we draw the line at faux slavery.

No, we accept wholesale murder of villages its incredibly easy to avoid that content by just choosing to... not do it. Slavery is going to be all over their not-Middle-East, and their choices on how to implement it as "historical" show a complete lack of historical understanding, especially considering they claim to have studied up on historical slave armies for inspiration. They're also engaging in revisionist behavior by making slavery something inherent to their Middle Eastern analogue while ignoring it's common practice in their European Analogue, thus perpetuating white elitist bullshit. They are also doing this at a time when POC are taking the spotlight globally and demanding better treatment, which manages to push it into the trifecta of stupid, poorly done, and tone deaf.

Ichabod Tane
Oct 30, 2005

A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.


https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4


Engage idiots with the same level of energy they engaged you. Nothing you just said will sink in if that's the conclusion he came to already.

ScottyJSno
Aug 16, 2010




Edit: I am dumb that is not the Netherlands. I was thinking of Belgium.

ScottyJSno fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jun 14, 2020

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


There were also pushing this last year, to be fair. Regardless, i'm not sure there's gonna be anything stopping you from killing slavers and letting slaves go, if that's what you want to do.

aphid_licker
Jan 7, 2009

eyebrowse


Pillbug

Was seriously bummed and grossed out to read this blog entry.

I mean at the very least this should've been a no-brainer:

Benagain posted:

Like c'mon. "You finish throttling the last guard to death with your chains. Stupid of them to get drunk with a gladiator in their care. You and the other five are free now, you guess, but you've got maybe three complete sets of clothing, a bunch of improvised weapons, and prominent slave brands. Might as well head north and see how long you can last..."

like it's right there! Why wouldn't you have it!

I'd like a game like this where you deck your guys out in sick threads and the battles are you doing breakdance moves at the "enemy" to damage his cool or something, pimping my guys with gear in cool colors is basically all I do. Going to the second hand store between battles to score some sick retro shades.

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!





I thought they shut down Casey hollinghead after it came out that he was fashy?

Avasculous
Aug 30, 2008


Beefeater1980 posted:

I thought they shut down Casey hollinghead after it came out that he was fashy?

I looked into this. It appears that he did get in some trouble with Obsidian:
https://www.gamerevolution.com/features/347097-pillars-eternity-ii-writer-manchester-bombings-get-prepare

The Battle Brothers website still lists him as their one and only writer:
http://battlebrothersgame.com/team/

The sser profile on RPG Codex is still active but private and he's removed the "Battle Brothers (writer)" mention from his posts.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.





dogstile posted:

There were also pushing this last year, to be fair. Regardless, i'm not sure there's gonna be anything stopping you from killing slavers and letting slaves go, if that's what you want to do.

Didn't one of the earlier blog posts say that slaves are the basic starter enemy in the south, like bandit thugs or barbarian thralls up north, and that southern armies you fight against will use them as front line cannon fodder? Given how they've been treating the rest of the expansion, I can't imagine they're going to give us a way to fight southern armies without killing a bunch of slaves.

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.


You guys know that a thrall is literally a slave too right?

tentacles
Nov 26, 2007


Mazz posted:

You guys know that a thrall is literally a slave too right?

ITT loudmouth virtue signalers trying to convince themselves they're moral paragons miss the fact that the thing they've been protesting has been ingame all this while due to their limited vocabulary

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.





Mazz posted:

You guys know that a thrall is literally a slave too right?

This is what the lore tells us about thralls:

quote:

Northern barbarians are not born free, but as thralls in servitude to their elders, and ultimately their tribe. They have no say on tribal matters, and they may possess only what they can carry. On occasion, members of other tribes are also accepted into thralldom, either peacefully or after being captured in battle.

It is expected that a thrall seek the respect of their master, their ancestors, and the tribe as a whole, and ultimately earn their status as a free man or woman. Indeed, young folk are considered to have reached adulthood as they become free, and to have then earned their place and say in the tribe. One way to do so, but not the only one, is to prove their worth in battle.

imo there's a pretty significant difference between "born into a lower caste but with the expectation that success in battle leads to upward mobility and freedom" and "born as chattel slaves who are literally cannon fodder (the blog describing southern slaves in combat says southern armies like to use slaves to get zone-of-control on enemies and then bombard the entire battle with gunpowder weapons) with no hope of freedom and the expectation that they'll be enslaved until an early death". It may be bad that the game gives you no way to resolve a barbarian combat without killing thralls, but it's a lot worse that by all indications it will give you no way to resolve a southern combat without killing slaves.

marshmallow creep
Dec 10, 2008

I've been sitting here for 5 mins trying to think of a joke to make but I just realised the animators of Mass Effect already did it for me



vyelkin posted:

it will give you no way to resolve a southern combat without killing slaves.

It would be pretty cool if there was a moment where instead of fighting slaves, the fight starts off basically by recreating that moment in Braveheart where the Irish and Scottish run at each other roaring bloody murder, then stop and share a laugh before turning on the British. So you end up with a host of rogue slave fighters taking their chance to turn on their masters and you go from being outnumbered to outnumbering the enemy.

marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Jun 15, 2020

tentacles
Nov 26, 2007


vyelkin posted:

This is what the lore tells us about thralls:


imo there's a pretty significant difference between "born into a lower caste but with the expectation that success in battle leads to upward mobility and freedom" and "born as chattel slaves who are literally cannon fodder (the blog describing southern slaves in combat says southern armies like to use slaves to get zone-of-control on enemies and then bombard the entire battle with gunpowder weapons) with no hope of freedom and the expectation that they'll be enslaved until an early death". It may be bad that the game gives you no way to resolve a barbarian combat without killing thralls, but it's a lot worse that by all indications it will give you no way to resolve a southern combat without killing slaves.

ITT some forms of slavery are acceptable :(

Ichabod Tane
Oct 30, 2005

A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.


https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4


tentacles posted:

ITT loudmouth virtue signalers trying to convince themselves they're moral paragons miss the fact that the thing they've been protesting has been ingame all this while due to their limited vocabulary

No one is virtue signaling by being grossed out by that chud writers take on RPG codex you doofus

tentacles
Nov 26, 2007


Glenn Quebec posted:

No one is virtue signaling by being grossed out by that chud writers take on RPG codex you doofus

Sorry man! Mouthing off is a bad habit, I'll tone it down

I'm afraid to Google chud

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


vyelkin posted:

This is what the lore tells us about thralls:


imo there's a pretty significant difference between "born into a lower caste but with the expectation that success in battle leads to upward mobility and freedom" and "born as chattel slaves who are literally cannon fodder (the blog describing southern slaves in combat says southern armies like to use slaves to get zone-of-control on enemies and then bombard the entire battle with gunpowder weapons) with no hope of freedom and the expectation that they'll be enslaved until an early death". It may be bad that the game gives you no way to resolve a barbarian combat without killing thralls, but it's a lot worse that by all indications it will give you no way to resolve a southern combat without killing slaves.

You know that being a slave until you earn your freedom is still being a slave, right?

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.





dogstile posted:

You know that being a slave until you earn your freedom is still being a slave, right?

Yes, and it's bad. It's also a good sign of how the game is going to treat the southern slaves, because I have played this game for hundreds of hours and literally never once had a chance to resolve a combat against barbarian thralls without killing them, even when they are the only opponents on the field and therefore theoretically free to just leave and not be slaves anymore. If you want to, you can explain this through the game's lore by saying that the thralls are trying to win the battle to earn their freedom in the culture of the northern barbarians, as explained by their unit description. That is not the case with what we know of the southern slaves.

tentacles
Nov 26, 2007


vyelkin posted:

Yes, and it's bad. It's also a good sign of how the game is going to treat the southern slaves, because I have played this game for hundreds of hours and literally never once had a chance to resolve a combat against barbarian thralls without killing them, even when they are the only opponents on the field and therefore theoretically free to just leave and not be slaves anymore. If you want to, you can explain this through the game's lore by saying that the thralls are trying to win the battle to earn their freedom in the culture of the northern barbarians, as explained by their unit description. That is not the case with what we know of the southern slaves.

Technically you had the option to run away mate

Xtreme Roleplaying(tm)

Mazz
Dec 12, 2012

Orion, this is Sperglord Actual.
Come on home.


vyelkin posted:

Yes, and it's bad. It's also a good sign of how the game is going to treat the southern slaves, because I have played this game for hundreds of hours and literally never once had a chance to resolve a combat against barbarian thralls without killing them, even when they are the only opponents on the field and therefore theoretically free to just leave and not be slaves anymore. If you want to, you can explain this through the game's lore by saying that the thralls are trying to win the battle to earn their freedom in the culture of the northern barbarians, as explained by their unit description. That is not the case with what we know of the southern slaves.

My only argument in this is that I donít feel we know enough to jump to conclusions. There very well could be a whole bunch of slave freeing stuff in this one if you are playing regular starts. Should you hold your breath over that? Definitely no, as you said, and the slavemaster start is in poor taste, no doubt. But until we have more than a few blog posts and the writings of a guy that is possibly not even involved with the game anymore I just canít agree with the ďboycott the DLCĒ mentality that pops up in this thread at times.

If it turns out to be really morally lovely from start to finish then hopefully they deal with appropriate consequences of that, but Im not making the leap now because we donít know poo poo, and frankly because itís otherwise a very fun video game that I can freely disconnect from reality. Not trying to be rude with the last part either, I just donít make that connection in a game set 1000s of years ago in a low fantasy perpetual misery land.

Mazz fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Jun 15, 2020

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vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.





Oh yeah also I forgot the obvious comparison that the "northern raiders" barbarian company start doesn't give you a new mechanic specifically for whipping your thralls into battle to go die for you :wtc:

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